My wife and I were discussing nanobots and such. Since they're likely made out of silicon or carbon (or something equally eager to bond), wouldn't that imply they're vulnerable to destabilizing elements like acids? Could a morph secrete a destabilizing chemical coating which would defeat most any nanites it came into contact with?
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Defeating nanites
Tue, 2010-06-29 21:27
#1
Defeating nanites
Wed, 2010-06-30 00:09
#2
Re: Defeating nanites
Some might be, but nanomachines don't necessarily have to be that small. Some nanomachines may be (relatively) very large, and not all of them are simple task-performing molecular structures. As for defeating them remember that nanomachines have fairly simplistic programming. They generally either only convert one sort of thing into another, or convert a number of things near-indiscriminately. Otherwise, without a nanohive or other large computational device capable of recharging and reprogramming them on the fly, they can be defeated simply by knowing what they can't convert, or how this specific swarm functions.
I would imagine, however, that there may be compounds specifically designed for the purpose of defeating nanomachines, ironically designed using nanotechnology. They may be a cheap alternative to guardian nanoswarms and the like.
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Wed, 2010-06-30 15:11
#3
Re: Defeating nanites
And what about a swarmoid?
how do you destroy the Swarmoid morph of a ennemy?
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Wed, 2010-06-30 18:37
#4
Re: Defeating nanites
At its most basic, there are two efficient ways to destroy any swarm (nano, morph or otherwise). The best thing to remember is that a swarm is effectively a small army. Trying to attack any individual component is useless, thanks to the element of attrition. Instead, you want to either try and take it out en masse utilizing distributed force (explosions, sprays and the like) or disrupt its communications abilities (EMP being the most effective way).
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Fri, 2010-07-02 09:49
#5
Re: Defeating nanites
Pure diamondoid nanites have a fun problem: they would be flammable in air (carbon plus a lot of surface area). So most nanoswarms likely use inert surfaces like sapphire (Al2O3) or silica (SiO2). These are pretty resistant to acids, but hot phosphoric acid dissolves sapphire and hydrofluoric acid dissolves both (and most other things).
However, the nanites have various functional parts that can get messed up. Antennas are vulnerable to EMP. Nanites ingesting outside matter can be "poisoned" by the right chemicals. For example, certain molecules would likely irreversibly gum up molecular sorters or sensors. These might be unique for a particular design or generic for any design using a particular model of parts. Just like antibodies can be shaped to fit nearly any surface one could design molecules that stick to particular nanites.
Another mode of attack is to gum up moving parts with polymers or molecules with affinity for the surfaces. The right glue spray can be very bad for the nanites, and of course for larger systems like specks, gnatbots or swarmanoids. Just add a bit of surfactant and maybe something reactive that binds to nanotools that might free them, and watch how the nanoswarm turns into sludge.
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Sun, 2010-07-04 23:03
#6
Re: Defeating nanites
And then there's always a really strong vacuum cleaner.
-karma
Mon, 2010-07-05 03:40
#7
Re: Defeating nanites
Aerosol adhesive. Problem solved. Why? Well a large organism like a person isn't affected by adhesive to this degree because the coating of the adhesive must impede the sum total of that beings muscle fibres moving it, and of course the adhesive coating isn't strong enough to do so. But with a swarm, the adhesive must be over come by each individual component before that component can contribute to the overall being. In maths terms:
a = resistance caused by adhesive
m = motive power of each component, e.g. a muscle fibre, a piece of the swarm, etc.
n = number of components, e.g. muscle fibres, pieces of swarm, etc.
M = remaining motive power, i.e. how impeded you are.
For a large, atomic organism (i.e. you): M = (m x n) - a
For a swarm: M = (m - a) x n
Bad news for swarms. Good news for UHU marketing department. ;)
K.
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Mon, 2010-07-05 05:02
#8
Re: Defeating nanites
Even worse for the nanites, they have a much greater surface area compared to their volume than larger structures. The smaller you are, the more risky sticky things are (just look at how insects both fall prey to and use various forms of adhesives). Breaking a sticky molecule requires work not too far below the strength of a nanomanipulator - and in a slime there will always be another one to take its place.
Filling air with glue spray is of course a tad annoying for macroscopic people too. But it works great for surfaces, as part of an armour and inside air refreshment systems. In fact, one could make surfaces that act like the mucus membranes in the nose: covered with nano-catching slime and cilia to slowly transport the mucus for recycling. Hmm, nanoprotective slime armor...
"Yeah, it looks like snot. It feels like snot. It is disgusting as hell. But this protective suit has saved me several times when we have had outbreaks. When the swarm tries to eat your hab, you don't care about stains on the furniture. I just wish those jokers at ImmuniSys had not added the scent overlay to the suit: when in it, I can smell what it catches. Which is fine for nanoswarms - protean-making-proteans smell like salmon with iron - but you also smell what you touch. Are you aware of how *dirty* the floors here are? Not to mention the chairs..."
- Computer Take-Mnuni, Isonautics Nanosecurity Division
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Mon, 2010-07-05 05:12
#9
Re: Defeating nanites
Yeah, the greater surface area is what allows the adhesive to apply to each individual component rather than have to face the sum total of their output (as you would bunched together muscle fibres wrapped in protective skin). I like the idea of a "snot suit". I'm going to have to put that in my game.
Back to actual nanites, if they are at all subject to magnetic forces, then I'd like to see what waving a magnet around does to a cloud of them. I imagine someone holding up a magnet covered in what looks like a filth of grey powder going "Hear that? That's a thousand million nanites saying 'I've fallen and I can't get up'".
:D
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Mon, 2010-07-05 07:31
#10
Re: Defeating nanites
Since nanites are so extremely difficult to detect (even the detecting machine has pretty bad odds at noticing them), we were really looking at full-time, passive systems. The best we came up with is modifying your morph or suit so it exudes a sticky mucuous suspending some sort of an acid. The mucus membranes connected to the respiratory system is a great idea though. Even if you aren't actually using it to breathe, just cycling air through mucus and maybe a high-powered UV light should eliminate (and then capture) a bunch of nano-scaled threats. Put on a fan or other forced-air tool, leave it in the center of a room, and it should eventually be able to more or less clear a room for you. Of course, if you're moving from room to room it won't be especially effective (unless it's really giant or a bit aggressive in how much it's changing the air pressure), but still as a detection mechanism it seems like it would be more effective than what's in the books now.
Fri, 2010-07-09 15:54
#11
Re: Defeating nanites
A Dustbuster and a blowtorch?
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Fri, 2010-07-09 15:56
#12
Re: Defeating nanites
When I was quite small, my grandmother used to take out hornets with a can of hairspray. I still recall her hosing them down with Aquanet White, watching them buzz around a bit, and then falling to the floor with a faint 'click!' They were then swept up and tossed outside.
Just a thought for creative players out there.
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Fri, 2010-07-09 15:58
#13
Re: Defeating nanites
Idea for a morph: the snotmorph. Possibly based on a flexbot.
Would you like to write it up, or should I?
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Sat, 2010-07-10 09:26
#14
Re: Defeating nanites
Go for it. I'm going on vacation soon :P
But really, 'delicious mucous coating' just seems like a logical morph modification that you can put on anything. Granted, putting it on a ghost might be a bad idea, but it could make that fury into an awfully effective grappler.
Tue, 2010-07-13 13:41
#15
Re: Defeating nanites
A ghost morph might find it useful for squirming through tighter spaces than friction would otherwise permit.
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Tue, 2010-07-13 17:20
#16
Re: Defeating nanites
I'm just worried about leaving a slime trail.