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Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Character Strength and Force Value

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Decivre Decivre's picture
Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Character Strength and Force Value
Alright, so my largest group has been playtesting some new mechanic ideas that I thought I would share with all of you, and see what you think. Note that we've only been playtesting them for about a week and a half, so the concept might still be rough, but I think you'll like what I have. Anyways, during a game we had an issue where the group had to move a large crate, protecting it during the process. During the conversation, the players tried to figure out which one of them could lift it best. Three of them had the same Somatics score (a flat, a dragonfly, and a worker pod all with a SOM total of 20), but common logic dictated to me that they should not be equally capable of carrying the crate. I ruled that the worker pod would be the most capable, but then we had this mild argument over how and why they wouldn't be equally capable. It ended with me just saying "because I said so as GM", but I honestly felt like I wish there was a more concrete reason, if only concrete enough to set in stone which morphs are stronger. So after reading the rules for a bit, I came to a simple realization; the only statistic innately tied to your morph and completely unattached to your ego is Durability. I decided that rather than trying to make a new stat (as that would mean reviewing all morphs and figuring how to grant this new stat to each one), I decided that the new mechanic should just be derived from Durability... maintaining the simplicity of the mechanics. In essence, I used Durability to represent not just hardiness, but sheer mass and girth. Morphs with higher durability are larger, heavier, and therefore more capable of the exertion of strength than smaller morphs with lower durability. I was simple and finally described an entire aspect of morphs that has otherwise gone completely untouched. I decided that this new attribute, Force Value, should be based on both Durability and Somatics... one representing the force your body can apply due to mass and strength, and the other representing the extra force you apply by sheer mental focus (a couch potato sleeved in an olympian should not be able to lift as much as an athlete sleeved in an olympian). Basically I just added the two together to get your FV. It functioned based on two principles: [list][*]Force Value is concrete enough to compare and contrast individual characters, so that you can better understand how strong each one is. [*]Force Value is abstract enough that the GM won't have to tie specific weights to any given Force Value. It just gives enough information so that the GM can make an informed decision in any scenario based on how much they feel Force Value should apply.[/list] At our next game, I brought the new mechanic to the table and used it. Things moved a bit more fluidly in situations where strength was a factor. No one argued over who was stronger, because now we had a concrete answer on the topic. Moreover, it answered some previously confusing aspects of the game, like how much more a group of flexbots merged together can haul as opposed to a single flexbot. All in all, it was a success. Sometime last week, I realized that the other mechanic tied to Somatics, Damage Bonus, was previously (due to a clerical error) tied to Durability. It made me actually think for a second... now that I've actually tied Durability to mass, tying durability to your ability to deal damage in melee combat makes much more sense. Even at the same Somatic score, a punch from a fury should hurt far worse than a guy in a flat, simply because the fury is built for fighting. I decided to consolidate the two... Force Value became [(DUR + SOM) ÷ 10], and replaced Damage Bonus in all respects. We playtested it again at our next game using the modification, and I came to a few more conclusions. [list][*]The new Force Value, with its much smaller number, felt more abstract in the minds of the players. They tried even less to tie it to real weights and measures, so it very much just became an abstract gauge for physical strength. [*]While I was afraid it might unbalance melee combat, I found that it only added 3-4 more damage in almost every scenario. Mathematically, the most it could possibly add is another 7-8 damage... and only in very unlikely circumstances (Reaper morph with tough level 3 has a +7.5 modifier to Force Value, which is the highest I've found so far). All in all, it made melee slightly more potent, but raised the bar on all sides. [*]This new usage of Force Value also clarifies things that were previously confusing. Heavier morphs now hit harder as they should. 100 merged flexbots now actually hit with the force of 100 merged flexbots (never take on 100 merged flexbots in hand-to-hand combat!).[/list] The mechanic ended up a total success. My players have accepted it for the purposes of defining strength, those with melee characters love it for the slight boost in damage, and I have had far less headaches when dealing with applications of strength. So, now I ask what all of you think (especially the devs). Is this mechanic good? Should I actually try to tie concrete strength values to FV rather than leaving it largely abstract? Is it good enough to become a core mechanic of the game? Please let me know... I would love to improve and alter this mechanic so that it suits the game most optimally. It would especially be awesome if this got written into the game!
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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
I like it! I like it a lot. the Strengh part was a big question mark for me, system wise And, if I may add my two i-rep, I'd suggest to have it like this FV= [(DUR + SOM) ÷ 10] - (Damages+Wounds). the reason is like this: when you're hurting, sick and/or wounded, you're weaker, carrying heavy charges is harder, your punches hurt less That's another incentive to heal when you can, because the worse shape you're in, the more vulnerable you become
[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
Quincey Forder wrote:
I like it! I like it a lot. the Strengh part was a big question mark for me, system wise And, if I may add my two i-rep, I'd suggest to have it like this FV= [(DUR + SOM) ÷ 10] - (Damages+Wounds). the reason is like this: when you're hurting, sick and/or wounded, you're weaker, carrying heavy charges is harder, your punches hurt less That's another incentive to heal when you can, because the worse shape you're in, the more vulnerable you become
You're right. I forgot to address this in my original post. Unfortunately I haven't had much of an opportunity to playtest wounds and FV, so my mechanics for that are basically theoretical, but my currently existing mechanic is "-2 FV penalty per unignored wound". Also, I think it fair to note that in our current games, I have also been allowing MoS to determine whether you can push yourself beyond your current capacity for strength. My current rule is "during a [SOM * 3] test, +1 FV per +30 MoS, +5 FV for critical success (does not stack); take 1d10 damage for each extra FV necessary for the task". This allows someone who still can't move something at their current strength to try anyways, exerting their body in the process... but also overtaxing it and potentially injuring themselves (greatly at that). Thanks for the heads up. That definitely should be addressed.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
That would translated well how a Medusa Shield officer and also Firewall sentinell rips off her Synth's arms trying to pry open the hatch of a exoskelleton (yes, that's the scene from Ghost in The Shell that I'm refering to) By the say, speaking of Synth, I don't know if the malus rule apply to them all the user has to do is switch off the pain center. Though as counterparts, the DV it suffered are majored in the same mesure exemple a sentinel in a Synth morph is trying to punch a hole in the cockpit of a shuttle from the outside, blowing the fists to bits with each punch until the hand is totally gone (and if he or she looses his/her grip, they might go floating in space for Eywa knows how long. if that happens in the vincinity of an habitat or a trojan it wouldn't be too long, but if it's somewhere else, like further an Earth-Moon L3 point, or Earth Sol L2. Being in a robotic body, there's no need for air, heat or food to sustain life. the poor bugger could still fly forever and still be alive. Completely nuts, but alive)
[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
Quincey Forder wrote:
That would translated well how a Medusa Shield officer and also Firewall sentinell rips off her Synth's arms trying to pry open the hatch of a exoskelleton (yes, that's the scene from Ghost in The Shell that I'm refering to) By the say, speaking of Synth, I don't know if the malus rule apply to them all the user has to do is switch off the pain center. Though as counterparts, the DV it suffered are majored in the same mesure exemple a sentinel in a Synth morph is trying to punch a hole in the cockpit of a shuttle from the outside, blowing the fists to bits with each punch until the hand is totally gone (and if he or she looses his/her grip, they might go floating in space for Eywa knows how long. if that happens in the vincinity of an habitat or a trojan it wouldn't be too long, but if it's somewhere else, like further an Earth-Moon L3 point, or Earth Sol L2. Being in a robotic body, there's no need for air, heat or food to sustain life. the poor bugger could still fly forever and still be alive. Completely nuts, but alive)
The maximum number of wounds anyone can ignore is 3. Even so, switching the pain filter on only allows a character to ignore a single wound, meaning they take the -2 FV penalty with every wound afterwards. Eventually, everyone's strength starts to give. As for the ability for a synth to live, remember that they still need energy to operate. If they do not have solar collectors or are too far away from the sun, eventually they will simply power down because they cannot continue to operate. A shut down synth is as good as dead.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
ADDENDUM: I just recently remembered this thread, and figured I would give everyone a heads up on the developments I've had involving this mechanic through playtest.... [list][*]All swarms (unless they are TITAN-tech, of course) have a Force Value of 0. This discrepancy was noticed by one of my players. [*]All playtesting so far has pointed to -2 being the best amount of penalty that each wound should grant to Force Value. -3 rendered most morphs worthless after two wounds, and -1 doesn't really affect you. Of course, I'm the only one who has playtested the mechanic so far, so if anyone else tries it out and has a different opinion, let me know. [*]If you are looking for hard values, my main group playtesting the mechanic seems to feel that 5 kg per FV for an "equipment load" (how much your character can comfortably carry in 1g without being encumbered in some way) and 50 kg for a "hauling load" (how much your character can actually lift off the ground in 1g) is a pretty good gauge by which to set your character's strength limits. I still recommend using the values as a more abstract thing, and not worrying about the specifics of weight. [*]One of my players recommended that thrown weapon range might be better fitted to FV*10 (or SOM+DUR) than to just SOM... in order to represent the fact that stronger morphs can throw things farther. I haven't playtested this because no one in my playgroups use thrown weapons, but perhaps someone might want to try it to see if it works.[/list] That's all for now. I hope someone else is trying this mechanic out too.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
UpliftedOctopi UpliftedOctopi's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
What about using the modified Dur rating (including damage) to determine FV? I won't have a chance to playtest for a while and can't decide if this would add or reduce complexity. It eliminates a modifier to keep track of, but requires slightly more accounting. (I realize this is a late bump but I hope this mechanic stays under development. I do believe there is something of great value here. The lack of a str stat has bugged all of my players so far.)
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
UpliftedOctopi wrote:
What about using the modified Dur rating (including damage) to determine FV? I won't have a chance to playtest for a while and can't decide if this would add or reduce complexity. It eliminates a modifier to keep track of, but requires slightly more accounting. (I realize this is a late bump but I hope this mechanic stays under development. I do believe there is something of great value here. The lack of a str stat has bugged all of my players so far.)
We actually tried that at one point. It not only adds to accounting, but also makes any and all damage potentially far more devastating, moreso for bigger morphs than smaller ones. Every 10 points of damage will reduce your ability to lift... despite the fact that you are only hindered by damage in any other respect when you take an injury. This means that big hefty beasts like the Reaper will lose lots of strength over the amount of damage they take (they have 60 durability, so they will lose 6 FV over the course of damage in combat) while someone in a flat will lose far less (they have 20 durability, so can only lose a maximum of 2 FV). By tying it to wounds like most other mechanics, it really emphasizes the idea that bigger, beefier morphs are harder to weaken than small, frail morphs. The only problem we've been having in testing the mechanic is figuring out how much FV someone should lose with each wound. My playtest group keeps jumping back and forth between 1 and 2 as their preference (I prefer 2, but I tend to be a bastard of a DM :D). Also, I'm glad you bumped it. I'm still using the mechanic for myself, but I'd like to know what others think, and how it works out in their games. I don't think my game should be the standard of excellence for this mechanic, especially if it doesn't pan out for other players. I need feedback!
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Character ...
ADDENDUM: New development I had while playtesting it a week ago. We found a discrepancy concerning group effort. Before, because we worked under the assumption that the weight was an even value (that an object requiring 2 FV to move was double the weight of something that required 1 FV), there was a mechanical hole when dealing with groups of morphs. Because we simply allowed multiple people to add their FV when determining what happens when they work together to pick something up, it made it so that an army of separate flexbots was more powerful than a single merged flexbot... which didn't seem right to us. As such, we started using a new mechanic based on the standard teamwork rules: every extra person working to move something adds +1 FV to the highest amongst the people involved, rather than their whole score. And if you have noticed that I add addendums whenever someone posts, that's because I largely forget about this thread until the next time someone posts. I'd imagine that you'll see some new update the next time someone else posts. :D
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
UpliftedOctopi UpliftedOctopi's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Character ...
I'll plan on testing this at my next house session. Running a game at a con isn't the best venue for testing mechanics and that'll be the next few for me, but expect to see some feedback in a month or so. Remind me if you hear nothing.
Slith Slith's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
Decivre wrote:
[*]If you are looking for hard values, my main group playtesting the mechanic seems to feel that 5 kg per FV for an "equipment load" (how much your character can comfortably carry in 1g without being encumbered in some way) and 50 kg for a "hauling load" (how much your character can actually lift off the ground in 1g) is a pretty good gauge by which to set your character's strength limits.
50kg/FV is a LOT. Most people would have trouble lifting 50kg's off the ground. 100kg's, 150kg's... that's getting into the realm of "this is so heavy I can't even carry it on my back".
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
Slith wrote:
50kg/FV is a LOT. Most people would have trouble lifting 50kg's off the ground. 100kg's, 150kg's... that's getting into the realm of "this is so heavy I can't even carry it on my back".
Figuring out how much a person should be able to lift was a bit hard, as there really isn't a good gauge for "human average". In the context of transhumans, this gauge of 50 kg per FV doesn't seem all too bad. The only time we felt that this fell apart was when comparing to an "average" human in the setting, who with 20 durability and 10 SOM would have an FV of 3. This seems a bit much, with that being about 330 pounds max lift (150 kg), but context of the fact that the current weight lift record holder is 848 pounds, this fits to some degree with what is possible. Do note that this maximum as we used it in play isn't "easily move it around", but rather "if I try hard enough, I can get this slightly off the ground and perhaps move it where I need to". We used it as a gauge for the absolute maximum of human effort in the context of the rules... short of self-injury, there is no way to lift an object beyond this weight with strength alone to any degree. That said, I think that FV rules are best left a vague guideline... something for the GM to use when discerning approximately how strong a character is, especially in the context of other characters... and I don't really recommend at all using it with a hard weight limitation. Even in my playtest group, while this is what everyone agreed was a good idea, I don't really ever use this gauge as a standard and decide for myself whether any given character has the proper FV to move something. Personally (and especially after the teamwork dilemma I just recently patched) I think it would be better if the scale of FV was more of a curve than a straight line, with any given character's strength perhaps doubling with every 2 points added to their score. Of course, this may have to do with the fact that I'm a huge fan of Mutants & Masterminds, and therefore love exponential value charts.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
w3azel w3azel's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
Hi, there. This is my first post, I just came here looking for a good rule on dealing with strength deeds. I should say I like your rule, it makes much more sense to me that that vague "BRUTE STRENGTH" rule on pp.175. Your rule works fairy well in terms of what you can or can't lift, as you said " something for the GM to use when discerning approximately how strong a character is". Now, I have a little problem and since you seem to have thinked about this issue for a long time, I would like to ask you (or every other reader of this thread) how do you tackle the question of possibility of success in a given task related to strength. I mean, for example, a hatch is closed and you want to open it by force because its mechanism is broken. Would you call for a simple SOMx3 roll? May be assigning some DUR to the locking mechanism would be a good option. The time needed to accomplish the deed would be the number os assaults needed to surpass this DUR in terms of bare hand damage. I dunno, what do you think? Thank you very much in advance.
___ A man without a god is like a fish without a bicycle.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
DUR is now used for subdual difficulty, and the ability to wear armor. Seems relevant, and reasonable to tie it to raw strength.
Dramatic Exit Dramatic Exit's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Character ...
Just to chime in, I'm using the rules described here though with /20 instead of /10. That is: FV= [(DUR + SOM) ÷ 20] - (Damages+Wounds).
Quote:
I mean, for example, a hatch is closed and you want to open it by force because its mechanism is broken. Would you call for a simple SOMx3 roll? May be assigning some DUR to the locking mechanism would be a good option. The time needed to accomplish the deed would be the number os assaults needed to surpass this DUR in terms of bare hand damage.
The basis behind FV was that SOM cannot logically be the sole determining factor in brute strength and DUR needs to be taken in to account to represent to some extent the 'mass' of the morph. Saying that, I'm not sure how I'd handle direct tests of strength. Maybe just DUR+SOM with modifiers based on how tough/heavy the thing is. Or as discussed above, correspond the FV rating to a 'how much can you lift' and work from there.
w3azel w3azel's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Character ...
I think the problem with modifiers is that there is no comparison table or something like that to work as a starting point. Figuring values for the strongest and weakest morph in terms of weight liftable may be a better approach because of that.
___ A man without a god is like a fish without a bicycle.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Expanding the use of existing mechanics: Durability and ...
w3azel wrote:
I mean, for example, a hatch is closed and you want to open it by force because its mechanism is broken. Would you call for a simple SOMx3 roll? May be assigning some DUR to the locking mechanism would be a good option. The time needed to accomplish the deed would be the number os assaults needed to surpass this DUR in terms of bare hand damage. I dunno, what do you think? Thank you very much in advance.
Basically, I create weight ranges using FV that help determine the SOM test you use. The current thresholds I've been using are FV*25, FV*50 and FV*100 in kilograms. So if for instance, if you had an FV of 3 (average human in our time), you would be capable of moving up to 75 kilograms (FV*25) with a SOM*3 test; you could move up to 150 kilograms (FV*50) with a SOM*2 test; and the absolute maximum capacity for your strength tapers at 300 kilograms (FV*100), where you only get to do a straight SOM test to see if you succeed. In the case of your test, the GM could simply figure out how much weight he feels should apply to the test, then determine the SOM check required, or whether that character could do it at all. These are just the test values I was using last time I had a chance to toy with this rule (I actually haven't been playing much Eclipse Phase as of late... most of my playgroups have disbanded for all the games I was running), and they may need tweaking to get in proper order. Do with it as you will.
w3azel wrote:
I think the problem with modifiers is that there is no comparison table or something like that to work as a starting point. Figuring values for the strongest and weakest morph in terms of weight liftable may be a better approach because of that.
The primary purpose of this mechanic was to create a guide for representing strength in the game without requiring the addition of new charts or addended info to the books. This allows a strength mechanic that does not modify any statblocks or add any new info for pre-existing morphs. It uses what already exists. Since durability is the only real attribute that morphs have to themselves, it makes sense that we would use it as a guide to represent how strong a morph is as well. It also grants a simple guide to which morph's are the strongest: a morph with durability 30 is stronger than a morph with durability 20, plain and simple. This also fits in line with the fact that synthmorphs generally have more durability than biomorphs; in that same vein, they can generally haul more and apply more force as well. Think of this mechanic as a quick patch to the Eclipse Phase system for the sake of covering something that the rules have yet to really cover. Maybe they already have a better mechanic penned up... but until they publish it, here's one for you to use.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Ferretz Ferretz's picture
One rule I've been writing up
One rule I've been writing up is what I call " Mass Value" of a morph. It's easy. Take the Durability of the Morph and multiply it by 2 if its Large (with the +10 to hit, as in the rules) and by 4 if it's Very Large. If it's small, subtract 15 from the Durability to find the Mass Value. This can bring it to 0 but not below. So how is Mass Value used? I haven't gotten into details here yet, but at least it can be used as a scale to rate how large morphs really are. For example, Dragonflies hae a Mass Value of 10 (25-15), while Neo-Orcas have 80. My ideas is that this value can be used in combat along with the modifiers to hit smaller and larger targets. Haven't figured out exactly how that will work yet. :) Eirik

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Chevre Chevre's picture
Decivre wrote:This also fits
Decivre wrote:
This also fits in line with the fact that synthmorphs generally have more durability than biomorphs; in that same vein, they can generally haul more and apply more force as well.
Which makes sense, as meat isn't necessarily an ideal material for the application of force.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Chevre wrote:Which makes
Chevre wrote:
Which makes sense, as meat isn't necessarily an ideal material for the application of force.
Exactly. I was also thinking of granting an FV bonus to synthmorphs, but there hasn't been much interest in doing that at the table. The innate higher durability of synthmorphs seems to be enough of a raise to their FV. Plus, it would add some confusion to the game. A person would hit harder with a cyberlimb than with their organic limbs, so you'd have this weird scenario where you'd have to ask a player with a single cyberlimb "which arm are you hitting with?"
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Chevre Chevre's picture
Decivre wrote:A person would
Decivre wrote:
A person would hit harder with a cyberlimb than with their organic limbs, so you'd have this weird scenario where you'd have to ask a player with a single cyberlimb "which arm are you hitting with?"
Well...not necessarily. There was a bit in the original [i]Ghost in the Shell[/i] manga about how replacing a single cyberlimb wouldn't give you that big of a boost in strength because the structure it was attached to (i.e. the skeleton) wouldn't be able to handle the stress. Extending that out, it does make sense that the reinforced bones implant grants a bonus to SOM and thus FV, as the muscles can be anchored much more firmly when there are no concerns about the bones breaking. Which raises the question: does the muscle augmentation implant also come with slightly reinforced bones to handle the additional stress?
OpsCon OpsCon's picture
I'd guess no, which is why it
I'd guess no, which is why it's a lesser bonus to SOM.