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Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack

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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
I was wondering, when does a person get cerebral wetware (mesh insert, cortical stack) and her first ego back up? that occured to me while listening to Altered Carbon's audiobook there is a mention of Myriam Bancroft causing a woman to miscarry, and since babies can't be digitasized in-utero, the child was RDed. that got me thinking. During the fall, aside from the barge, most of the victims must have been children if they were too young to be uploaded And that also explain the Lost Generation debacle.
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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
I assume the stack works by having an extensive network of nanofibres throughout the brain, recording activity and inferring the network state from it. This would be a real problem in a growing brain. The amount of synaptic remodelling that occurs in infants is enormous, and as the brain grows the changes in size would make the fibre network lag behind. Maybe one could have a growing fibre system at all times (and not just during initial insertion), but that sounds risky. So my guess is that on neuroscientific grounds before six years of age cortical stacks will not work very well. Even if they are implanted the recording will not be enough to reconstruct an ego. After six years of age the brain is still growing (from 1,180 grams to an adult 1,450 grams around age 25) but at a lower rate. So I would guess this is where stacks would actually be inserted, becoming fully functional a few years later. This of course adds to the psychological trauma of the Fall: it killed practically every child under the age of six. Remember those piles of bones at the Kimanjano beanstalk terminal? A concept for a character background: a person who was killed at around 10 years of age. She had a stack and was resleeved, but the ego copy was rather fuzzy due to the ongoing brain growth. So she became a new person, with some features of the previous child. The parents soon began to notice that she was not "their" child but a kind of ghost of it, with different personality and tastes. This led to plenty of unspoken resentment and emotional conflict, explaining whatever issues the current character has.
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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
Actually, no, I don't remember that. where is it? I can't find it in the rulebook that concept you propose kinda reminds of Kurau Phantom Memory, a really cool anime from the Bones Studio, the crew that gave use Full Metal Alchemist and Rahxephon (which could also be seen as a type of Transhumanist anime with cool mecha in it) Replace the child by the daughter of the Dr Minami (Kurau, whom is the the main character). The Rynax could be compaired to the Wyatt McLeod Strain with a rather high psy trait the DVD is aviable on Amazon, check it out. Took several ncp ideas from that anime I wonder if the Neotenic morph was created for resleeved children, but was redirected for ship crew and less savory purpose (I could picture the Nine Lives Cartel making big profic with stuff like that) another though occured to me: tribes of children that has gone wild roaming the Earth. They could have been infected by some strain of the EV, and truly have become wild children. That would make for an interesting story with a wick twist of the Peter Pan archetype. the PC are sent to Earth by Firewall to catch a weapon traficant who smuggle TITANs tech and hiding somewhere in the South Hemisphere, on a island. A sequel to Mind The WMD, maybe? they get isolated on another island of the archipel where a tribe of these lost children live. And there you have it, a sick mix of Lost and Peter Pan rolled in one
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
Arenamontanus wrote:
I assume the stack works by having an extensive network of nanofibres throughout the brain, recording activity and inferring the network state from it. This would be a real problem in a growing brain. The amount of synaptic remodelling that occurs in infants is enormous, and as the brain grows the changes in size would make the fibre network lag behind. Maybe one could have a growing fibre system at all times (and not just during initial insertion), but that sounds risky. So my guess is that on neuroscientific grounds before six years of age cortical stacks will not work very well. Even if they are implanted the recording will not be enough to reconstruct an ego. After six years of age the brain is still growing (from 1,180 grams to an adult 1,450 grams around age 25) but at a lower rate. So I would guess this is where stacks would actually be inserted, becoming fully functional a few years later. This of course adds to the psychological trauma of the Fall: it killed practically every child under the age of six. Remember those piles of bones at the Kimanjano beanstalk terminal? A concept for a character background: a person who was killed at around 10 years of age. She had a stack and was resleeved, but the ego copy was rather fuzzy due to the ongoing brain growth. So she became a new person, with some features of the previous child. The parents soon began to notice that she was not "their" child but a kind of ghost of it, with different personality and tastes. This led to plenty of unspoken resentment and emotional conflict, explaining whatever issues the current character has.
Actually, the book states that the cortical stack is actually a semi-nanoware storage system, using a network of nanomachines that go through the vessels of the brain and map out its synapses and processes. In theory, the nanomachines are fully capable of mapping the brain no matter what shape and size it may be in. In fact, a cortical stack is likely more energy efficient in a smaller brain, requiring a lower number of nanomachines to constantly map the brain's interior. To that end, I think that Eclipse Phase assume's a high degree of malleability when it comes to brain mapping and compatible minds. Any ego can be mapped into a neotenic morph, which is for all intents and purposes a fabricated child designed to maintain the high level of brain plasticity that a child's body has. If this is the case, then it should be equally possible to do the reverse and map a child's mind into an adult brain (albeit robbing them of that high-level plasticity, and the mind maturation advantages it grants). Lastly, the Lost were supposedly resleeved into their Futura morphs fairly early in their childhood, with their minds growing at accelerated rate in simulspace to match the accelerated growth of their morphs. If we exclude the contamination of the subjects by the Exsurgent virus, then this project may very well prove that resleeving children, and potentially infants, is completely feasible.
Quincey Forder wrote:
another though occured to me: tribes of children that has gone wild roaming the Earth. They could have been infected by some strain of the EV, and truly have become wild children. That would make for an interesting story with a wick twist of the Peter Pan archetype. the PC are sent to Earth by Firewall to catch a weapon traficant who smuggle TITANs tech and hiding somewhere in the South Hemisphere, on a island. A sequel to Mind The WMD, maybe? they get isolated on another island of the archipel where a tribe of these lost children live. And there you have it, a sick mix of Lost and Peter Pan rolled in one
Actually, this could provide interesting plot points. If you are the sort that doesn't mind a more benign take on the Exsurgent virus (it is designed to accelerate the evolution of the mind, and the malevolence and insanity are merely problems with compatibility), then this could provide a unique story idea. The Exsurgent virus has perfectly melded with the minds of these children, and as a result they did not go insane or become all that evil. Unfortunately, attempting to survive on their own has left them uncivilized and potentially hostile to humans for completely different reasons (they fear us). As a result, they utilize their potent psi abilities to avoid us, while living in bodies that never age and potentially never fully mature due to the regenerative nanoplague running through their bloodstreams. This may also be their variant of the insanity and malevolence that the Exsurgent virus normally causes, effectively leaving them both physically and mentally immature for eternity because it is in this state that the Exsurgent virus is most compatible with human physiology.
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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
so the technology makes it possible for even infant to be backed up and resleeved, but what's the legal stance on it? the Ultimates might have a low minimal age for stack implant before they start their training, alike the agoge in Sparta, back in the days; while the PC might have a legal age that is later in life, like 16, the age of conscent. my stance on the EV is that each stain is dispatch by different factions in the EVI, each with their own agenda (meaning that most of the possibilities evoked in the chapter 12 of the core rule book). Each strain the equivalent of the swarmoid carrying the fork of an ETI. i could see the strain of these Lost Boys carrying a motherly figure that I've very tempted to call the Wendy-Barrie Strain. She guided her children from across the world to that island in the South Pacific. Many, most, children died. Those who survived were the toughest, meanest and most determined. one of the group, coming from the UK, was reduced (trimmed down ?) to just one extremely vindicative boy. They were accompanied by a nanoswarm that takes the general shape of a faerie, controlled by an AGI devoted to the survivor. the smuggler could want to get his hand on that strain, persuaded it's a more direct path to immortality. What's the need of resleeving if your morph can fix itself on the fly? and what ammount of money/reputation the hyperelites would be ready to pay for that immortality treatment. That, into unto itself could present an existential threat that would warrant a group of Sentinels sent to Earth.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
Quincey Forder wrote:
so the technology makes it possible for even infant to be backed up and resleeved, but what's the legal stance on it? the Ultimates might have a low minimal age for stack implant before they start their training, alike the agoge in Sparta, back in the days; while the PC might have a legal age that is later in life, like 16, the age of conscent.
For the most part, I think that most of the basic implants are granted at birth (mesh inserts, cortical stack, biomods), so I think it safe to say that other than perhaps bioconservatives, most people expect backup to start immediately. Resleeving might be a more touchy issue... chances are that you have to be an adult to use a facility without parent permission, and most parents only allow their children to resleeve under rare circumstances (family trip requiring an egocasting, body heavily injured due to crime or an accident). Of course, then we get into the touchy subject of how we define adults. Thanks to time acceleration, the cutoff point of what an adult is will be difficult to really call. The Lost are only 10 years old as of the start of the setting, and have been effecitvely adults since they were 3. If I go into VR time acceleration and mature within its confines from birth, I could very well get an amount of life experience equivalent to 20 years of life in only 122 days (at 60x pace)... and I would still be in an infant's body by the time I'm a mental adult. Technology makes the law hard, doesn't it? :D
Quincey Forder wrote:
my stance on the EV is that each stain is dispatch by different factions in the EVI, each with their own agenda (meaning that most of the possibilities evoked in the chapter 12 of the core rule book). Each strain the equivalent of the swarmoid carrying the fork of an ETI.
My theory is similar, in that I believe that the Exsurgent virus is intelligent and free-willed, and each strain works differently because they all have different stances on how to affect their targets. However, I think their agendas are likely the same... they work differently to the same goal, whatever that goal might be. I also agree that the various viral media are effectively morphs. However, one thing I have wondered is if the Exsurgent virus is really an ego to itself. Each of the strains may, rather, be very complex AIs (narrow, not general) that simply showcase how much further along the ETI are at designing such things.
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King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
Adults will probably be no longer a age criteria, but a set criteria nevertheless. Citizens aspects are likely limited to their exams, certifications & permits. Uplifted squids have rights too.
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
So children are given mesh insert and a stack as soon as they're born, but their resleeving and growth pace are under their parents' autority. That makes sence.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
Quincey Forder wrote:
So children are given mesh insert and a stack as soon as they're born, but their resleeving and growth pace are under their parents' autority. That makes sence.
It might even be sooner than birth in many cases; nanotechnology makes in vivo implantation a total possibility. Its very possible that all of the stock options that morphs are usually granted are long attached to any given infant from the very moment they come out of the (exo)womb. It really makes me wonder what life would be like as a child in the EP universe. How might a child come to terms with computer access [i]from the womb[/i]?
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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
I think it would be a heavily firewalled connection, mostly going from the infant to the Mesh, and extremely little from the Mesh to the infant. Beside, I believe that exowomb pregnancies are a possibility, but many women still chose to carry their baby themselves. Especially in the LLA, which chose to stick pretty close to the traditional terran tradition without being bioconservative. that said I could see expecting parents starting to shop for morph as soon as the pregnancy is confirmed, given the oft long waiting list for some kind of morph. Once the child is "born", he's placed in a SimulSpace for a few weeks/days with his parents until he's the equivalent of 12, and given the morph, so the kid can grow up and bond with his or her parents and Muse in a relatively safe and controlled environment. With the time dilation, the actual infantcy could be dealt within the time the employment contract allows for birth leave. Nowadays (in real life), in Europe it could count in months if not years in some case. I don't know for the rest of the world I think that Neotenic's disadvantage "stocial stygma: Neotenic" come from the fact it's likely the first Pod a kid gets. So either the Ego in such a morph is a kid, or a potential sexual deviant.In the first case whatever they might say or ask is not taken seriously and promptly discarded ("Sure, kiddo, there's a TITAN nanoswarm that's going to be sold in the ship moored at the barge. Now why don't you go play with your friends and let grownups work?") or in the second case, looked upon with suspicion and/or disgust.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
Quincey Forder wrote:
I think it would be a heavily firewalled connection, mostly going from the infant to the Mesh, and extremely little from the Mesh to the infant. Beside, I believe that exowomb pregnancies are a possibility, but many women still chose to carry their baby themselves. Especially in the LLA, which chose to stick pretty close to the traditional terran tradition without being bioconservative.
Actually, I think it's likely that mesh inserts are completely closed-off systems at birth. A child would be far too easy a hacking target, so it would be much safer simply preventing them from any outside access. Chances are that the only real software they might have at first start is a basic operating system, a muse, and specialty software designed for helping infants through the early stages of life (language programs, programs for teaching shapes and colors... things of that sort). Even discounting exowomb pregnancies, nanotechnology makes it possible to induce implants even in a natural womb. There is no particular need for an exowomb, unless a woman wishes to keep her figure. That said, I think that exowombs are fairly common, and it's likely that only bioconservatives and curious people ever decide to go "au naturel".
Quincey Forder wrote:
that said I could see expecting parents starting to shop for morph as soon as the pregnancy is confirmed, given the oft long waiting list for some kind of morph. Once the child is "born", he's placed in a SimulSpace for a few weeks/days with his parents until he's the equivalent of 12, and given the morph, so the kid can grow up and bond with his or her parents and Muse in a relatively safe and controlled environment. With the time dilation, the actual infantcy could be dealt within the time the employment contract allows for birth leave. Nowadays (in real life), in Europe it could count in months if not years in some case. I don't know for the rest of the world I think that Neotenic's disadvantage "stocial stygma: Neotenic" come from the fact it's likely the first Pod a kid gets. So either the Ego in such a morph is a kid, or a potential sexual deviant.In the first case whatever they might say or ask is not taken seriously and promptly discarded ("Sure, kiddo, there's a TITAN nanoswarm that's going to be sold in the ship moored at the barge. Now why don't you go play with your friends and let grownups work?") or in the second case, looked upon with suspicion and/or disgust.
Actually, I think that parents who decide to have a transhuman child likely have a transhuman child... that is, they likely take each of their DNA sequences, take it to a local genetics broker, and have him encode their DNA into the morph of their choice. So, if you want your child to be born into a remade and neither of you are a remade, then you'd go to a special doctor who would take your genetics, modify it into remade genes, and plug it into your (exo)womb. On that other hand, if you're both already remade, then you'll likely have a remade child automatically. That said, I'd imagine that simulspace acceleration is fairly unpopular, if only because of the bad press it gets due to the Lost Generation incident. Anarchists, Scum, Ultimates and other people more accepting of technology might do so, but it's probably a minority activity. Besides, many people will probably want the experience of raising a child from infancy... even if they are a handful, nanotechnology and robot servants will probably make the job far easier than it is today. Those who don't want such an experience are less likely to have children than they are today... immortality gives people less incentive for creating progeny. As for neotenics, their stigma isn't really about the look of their age. It's about the sort of person that would want to be in an eternally childlike body. Most people will get one of two impressions: "this person is a weirdo who wants to cling to his childhood", or "this person turns tricks for pedophiles". Neither idea gives people a good impression of you.
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Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
I think it pretty much depend on the social environment they live in poor people are likely to raise their kids in real time, naturally while the elites and further up will probably get exowomb, and leave the raising to the kids' muses and the robotic servant. Hell, I even wonder if these parents hug their children at all That's how you find yourselves with a bunch of Transhuman Draco Malfoy wannabes, guys! on the morph question, I really doubt the kid is given an adult morph right away that's why I believe they use some young but growing morph (contrary to the neotenic "sold" in the book which remain the same age) from 3 to 9 years old, 10 to 15 and after that the adult model, at sixteen. (now to be really nasty, a li'l virus that broadcast that 150 years old The Crest's song 'Sixteen Candles' in loop in the adult morph's mesh insert 3D10 SV per hour that the virus is active (insert evil cackling here. Hey, I had to google that song, so they can suffer too!)
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Minimal age for mesh insert, ego backup and cortical stack
Quincey Forder wrote:
I think it pretty much depend on the social environment they live in poor people are likely to raise their kids in real time, naturally while the elites and further up will probably get exowomb, and leave the raising to the kids' muses and the robotic servant. Hell, I even wonder if these parents hug their children at all That's how you find yourselves with a bunch of Transhuman Draco Malfoy wannabes, guys!
Perhaps, but even kids not raised by their parents will have the potential to receive far more nurturing than a kid today not raised by their parents. AI assistance and even the potential for mesh companionship open up new gateways to fostering social health than ever.
Quincey Forder wrote:
on the morph question, I really doubt the kid is given an adult morph right away that's why I believe they use some young but growing morph (contrary to the neotenic "sold" in the book which remain the same age) from 3 to 9 years old, 10 to 15 and after that the adult model, at sixteen. (now to be really nasty, a li'l virus that broadcast that 150 years old The Crest's song 'Sixteen Candles' in loop in the adult morph's mesh insert 3D10 SV per hour that the virus is active (insert evil cackling here. Hey, I had to google that song, so they can suffer too!)
I never said they would be given adult morphs. Rather, their morphs would grow and mature at a slow pace. A vat-grown morph takes 3 years to come to term, but one that grows outside the vat probably takes far longer... probably of similar equivalence to a standard human lifespan. If you (and your remade) wish to have beautiful remade kids with your remade wife the natural way, they'll birth at infancy, and become an adult over the course of the next 2 decades. If you really want your kid to be an adult quickly, however, you can always throw his body into a vat for a few years and let him tough it out in the mesh.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]