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Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans

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Sat, 2010-05-22 07:59
#1
Decivre Decivre's picture
Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
As we all know, Eclipse Phase has fairly quickly become one of the most successful open license RPGs since the d20 SRD. It may even be the most successful open license game since, and perhaps the most successful game completely covered by an open license ever (even 3rd Edition D&D only had its mechanics covered by the license). It even inspired Catalyst to try their hand at it and create Leviathans, a Creative Commons-based steamworks combat game in the vein of Battletech or Crimson Skies. It has an interesting concept, a lot of backing when it comes to storyline, and some pretty good potential. I got intrigued by it, especially since it would be following in EP's footsteps. Unfortunately, their sales strategy seems to be dramatically different, and I don't know if it's a good thing. The biggest problem is spreading the word: if I type up "Eclipse Phase" on Google, the entire first page is dedicated entirely to the RPG. Several more pages beyond that will continue to talk about the game. On the other hand, typing up "Leviathans" only crops up their main website. Even expanding it to "Leviathans Monsters in the Sky" barely expands the available info to fill out most of the first page, and a couple links on the second. It's fairly hard to find anything on it, and marketing was key in the success of Eclipse Phase... you guys really got the word out there. Secondly, they've made no attempt to utilize the Creative Commons license in any real way. They've released only one torrent that I know of (the only mention of which was in the comments section of the first article detailing the first book), and have done little beyond that. The books are so elusive that I probably wouldn't have noticed if it wasn't released with a CC license. I mean the released material isn't expensive, but I'm more of a physical product guy... and I simply don't feel like purchasing these digital books solely to preview them, if I might not like what I get. This was probably one of my favorite things about Eclipse Phase, and the biggest reason I purchased the core book hardcopy was because I liked what I saw when I downloaded the PDF... there is no better marketing than free samples. So, what does everyone else think of it? Is their strategy going to work? Should they have even used the Creative Commons license? Should I be worried about their direction, or am I just whining because I don't want to buy stuff? :D
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Sat, 2010-05-22 09:00
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
No I think you are on to something. I thought Catalyst dropped the ball on Leviathan. I only knew that it existed because I sometimes go on the Catalyst website to see what new products they have. I've never seen any of the books in my local gaming store, and I've never talked with anyone that played the game. I think the publishing industry as a whole is afraid that the CC License will take off and that it will be the end of the industry (kinda like how the IT industry saw the GPL about 10 years ago (I still giggle when I hear Steve Balmer's quote "Linux is a cancer"). The fact that Eclipse Phase is as much a success as it is, is a bonus to them (the the producers on the product). Until these attitudes change, more resources and time will be pumped into non-open publishing and the creative content of the community that consumes these products won't have a say.
—
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Sat, 2010-05-22 10:31
Thunderwave Thunderwave's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
Wait, Catalyst is doing a CCL game? When the heck did this start? Admitedly, though, I've been out of the loop with them since they dropped the ball and lost CthulhuTech.
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Sat, 2010-05-22 10:58
Dread Moores Dread Moores's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
Gen-Con 2009 is the first time I remember a Leviathans reference, but it could easily go back before that. And yes, agreed. They've utterly dropped the ball on Leviathans. But considering the current uhh...situation the company finds themselves in, it's not really surprising.
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Sat, 2010-05-22 16:40
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
TBRMInsanity wrote:
No I think you are on to something. I thought Catalyst dropped the ball on Leviathan. I only knew that it existed because I sometimes go on the Catalyst website to see what new products they have. I've never seen any of the books in my local gaming store, and I've never talked with anyone that played the game. I think the publishing industry as a whole is afraid that the CC License will take off and that it will be the end of the industry (kinda like how the IT industry saw the GPL about 10 years ago (I still giggle when I hear Steve Balmer's quote "Linux is a cancer"). The fact that Eclipse Phase is as much a success as it is, is a bonus to them (the the producers on the product). Until these attitudes change, more resources and time will be pumped into non-open publishing and the creative content of the community that consumes these products won't have a say.
The game isn't officially out yet, so it won't be in your local gaming store... but they still need to spread the word about the game. The biggest reason that Eclipse Phase worked out was because they made sure that people knew about it. A Creative Commons product without good marketing is just a quaint download. Moreover, Leviathans somewhat has an advantage over Eclipse Phase. It's one thing to read a digital game book, but to print out playing pieces and game mats is a chore. Leviathans is a tabletop skirmish game, and players are going to need a means to play it on a tabletop. This already corners a certain degree of the market solely for this purpose; players will want the minis, the custom dice, and hex maps for play, even if they print out the books and cards. On the other hand, all you really need to play Eclipse Phase that can't really be printed is a pair of d10s.
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Sat, 2010-05-22 16:56
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
Thunderwave wrote:
Wait, Catalyst is doing a CCL game? When the heck did this start? Admitedly, though, I've been out of the loop with them since they dropped the ball and lost CthulhuTech.
My point exactly. :D The Leviathans website opened up back in May of 2009, and they announced it to be Creative Commons in November (it may have been announced earlier, but that was the earliest I saw any mention of it). And don't feel bad... I didn't find out about its existence until a couple months ago, when I noticed the name on the Battletech website. It is flying completely under the radar. And it's a real shame too. Even if Catalyst has been losing a lot of favor among both fans and developers, I'd hate to see a Creative Commons game go down the crapper... especially because it was handled badly. I want to see these sorts of games succeed, because if we can show the industry that the Creative Commons is a viable way to create a product, then perhaps more companies will follow suit.
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Sun, 2010-05-23 08:30
KarmaInferno KarmaInferno's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
Remember that Catalyst has been having major financial and other problems. Their Leviathans stuff may be on the back burner until they sort out their issues. -karma
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Sun, 2010-05-23 11:27
Thunderwave Thunderwave's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
Decivre wrote:
Thunderwave wrote:
Wait, Catalyst is doing a CCL game? When the heck did this start? Admitedly, though, I've been out of the loop with them since they dropped the ball and lost CthulhuTech.
My point exactly. :D The Leviathans website opened up back in May of 2009, and they announced it to be Creative Commons in November (it may have been announced earlier, but that was the earliest I saw any mention of it). And don't feel bad... I didn't find out about its existence until a couple months ago, when I noticed the name on the Battletech website. It is flying completely under the radar. And it's a real shame too. Even if Catalyst has been losing a lot of favor among both fans and developers, I'd hate to see a Creative Commons game go down the crapper... especially because it was handled badly. I want to see these sorts of games succeed, because if we can show the industry that the Creative Commons is a viable way to create a product, then perhaps more companies will follow suit.
I agree with this. CCL looks like it it'll work, if companies can support it and get the word out. Putting up references to it on a website that is steadily loosing visitors won't help any. They need to get it out and get the word to places where people will see it. The Metacritic may, in fact, doom it before it even really gets off the ground.
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Sun, 2010-05-23 15:02
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
So if Leviathan is a CCL game then couldn't any company (depending on the license and any additional waivers that need to be signed) make minis for the game? This to me sounds like CGL could then reap the rewards of a vast resource pool if they play their cards right. It could also lead to a situation that hasn't been seen in the miniatures industry, individuals/companies can create miniatures for different types of players. For the vast majority of current miniature players, base models can be produced that can be further customized. New players and players that don't like to customize their minis (myself included) could buy pre-painted minis that are "game ready". You could even make a market of design documents for creating minis from other materials (for those that want to make their minis from scratch (kinda like Brickcommander ( http://www.brickcommander.com/ )). Thoughts?
—
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Sun, 2010-05-23 18:20
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
Thunderwave wrote:
I agree with this. CCL looks like it it'll work, if companies can support it and get the word out. Putting up references to it on a website that is steadily loosing visitors won't help any. They need to get it out and get the word to places where people will see it. The Metacritic may, in fact, doom it before it even really gets off the ground.
I want to help, but I don't have copies of the game, and I have no real urge to purchase the PDFs since I'll probably buy the physical product when it releases. I wish I knew someone who had a copy so they could give it to me, then I could post it up on Torrent sites and the like.
TBRMInsanity wrote:
So if Leviathan is a CCL game then couldn't any company (depending on the license and any additional waivers that need to be signed) make minis for the game? This to me sounds like CGL could then reap the rewards of a vast resource pool if they play their cards right. It could also lead to a situation that hasn't been seen in the miniatures industry, individuals/companies can create miniatures for different types of players. For the vast majority of current miniature players, base models can be produced that can be further customized. New players and players that don't like to customize their minis (myself included) could buy pre-painted minis that are "game ready". You could even make a market of design documents for creating minis from other materials (for those that want to make their minis from scratch (kinda like Brickcommander ( http://www.brickcommander.com/ )). Thoughts?
Not quite. They released the game under a non-commercial license, which means you cannot sell anything you produce attached to the game without getting their explicit permission. So, for instance, I could make my own version of their rulebook and give it out to people, but can't sell it. I could make my own Leviathans and Eclipse Phase minis, but couldn't market them to make a profit (I might be allowed to get people to pay the cost of production, effectively breaking even). In fact, this is exactly what I've done with Eclipse Phase... I already produced a "player's edition" version of the core book that removed the 12th chapter, eliminating all the secrets that GMs wouldn't really want their players to know about. Can't sell it, but I've already put a link up on this forum.
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Mon, 2010-05-24 14:44
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
Decivre wrote:
Not quite. They released the game under a non-commercial license, which means you cannot sell anything you produce attached to the game without getting their explicit permission. So, for instance, I could make my own version of their rulebook and give it out to people, but can't sell it. I could make my own Leviathans and Eclipse Phase minis, but couldn't market them to make a profit (I might be allowed to get people to pay the cost of production, effectively breaking even). In fact, this is exactly what I've done with Eclipse Phase... I already produced a "player's edition" version of the core book that removed the 12th chapter, eliminating all the secrets that GMs wouldn't really want their players to know about. Can't sell it, but I've already put a link up on this forum.
TBRMInsanity wrote:
(depending on the license and any additional waivers that need to be signed)
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Mon, 2010-05-24 18:11
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
For the most part, the license and waivers are standard to any franchise you'd wish to make a derivative product for, Creative Commons or no. This Creative Commons license is largely to encourage people to produce more [i]written[/i] material and such (alternative rules, new ships, software). As a non-commercial license, it does not help with most physical products, and is about as helpful in that regard as any copyright. I can make my own Battletech, Warhammer or even Mage Knight minis for personal use if I wanted, but I'd need to get permission to sell them as well.
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Thu, 2010-05-27 16:12
PhishStyx PhishStyx's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
TBRMInsanity wrote:
No I think you are on to something. I thought Catalyst dropped the ball on Leviathan. I only knew that it existed because I sometimes go on the Catalyst website to see what new products they have. I've never seen any of the books in my local gaming store, and I've never talked with anyone that played the game.
I have to say, I know (and own) plenty of games that would fit that description. I have difficulty finding players who have ever heard of Eclipse Phase for example. The closest gaming store to me carries about a half dozen games (a few Shadowrun, a few GURPS, a wall of D&D, some Savage Worlds, 50 - 60 Palladium books on average, and a shelf of White Wolf) in any significant numbers and a smattering of a few others (mostly D20 stuff like Mutants and Masterminds). I very rarely see indie games in stores.
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Thu, 2010-05-27 16:24
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
PhishStyx wrote:
I have to say, I know (and own) plenty of games that would fit that description. I have difficulty finding players who have ever heard of Eclipse Phase for example. The closest gaming store to me carries about a half dozen games (a few Shadowrun, a few GURPS, a wall of D&D, some Savage Worlds, 50 - 60 Palladium books on average, and a shelf of White Wolf) in any significant numbers and a smattering of a few others (mostly D20 stuff like Mutants and Masterminds). I very rarely see indie games in stores.
The difference though is that free copies of Eclipse Phase are easily available on the net; moreover, they are actually asking their fanbase to spread the word and give out free samples. You're are basically given full permission to take your PDF, go down to your local gaming store and scream "Who wants a free and legal PDF of a new game?!"* On the other hand, I can't find free copies of Leviathans, even though they basically do the same. They've done little to spread their product. I've seen few reviews, interviews, or even references to the game. They haven't even propelled their fanbase to produce a Wikipedia article. Their exposure has been minimal at best. Oh and by the way, I'd recommend bringing your PDFs to the store next time you're there. I've been handing out copies of the core book like a Jehovah's Witness hands out pamphlets (much to the chagrin of the store owner, who still thinks I might be doing something illegal). *[sup]:"Who wants a free and legal PDF of a new game?!" is way too long and excessive a phrase. I'd just use "Free PDF!" or something to that effect.[/sup]
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Thu, 2010-05-27 16:30
PhishStyx PhishStyx's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
BTW, I neglected to mention that the closest game store to me is about 3 hours away.
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Thu, 2010-05-27 16:35
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
PhishStyx wrote:
BTW, I neglected to mention that the closest game store to me is about 3 hours away.
Wow, someone who goes to a shop farther than even mine (45 minutes). Impressive. :D I think it fair to note that game shops in rural areas tend not to carry newer licenses and such. They go with the tried and true... Magic: the Gathering and D&D. Anything that doesn't have proven sales will likely not appear on its shelves. It's one of the reasons I ended up distributing the PDF at the store. The owner had no plans to purchase a shipment of the book, and he only planned to order the ones that were personally requested (my copy and four other people so far). Hopefully though, enough exposure can get such people to change their mind. You might even want to see if the owner is willing to take a copy and give them to people, that way it only requires you to make one trip.
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Thu, 2010-05-27 19:03
PhishStyx PhishStyx's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
Well, Richmond isn't a huge city, but I wouldn't exactly call it rural either. :) I understand what you're saying about distribution, and I'll consider trying it, but what's really going to give it (or any game) a boost is using it in to game in the store, so people can see it in play. When we played Shadowrun in the store (different store, same city), sales rocketed upward. When we stopped, they fell back again. At this particular store, Savage Worlds is suddenly big with the owner, so he's hosting games and sales are going up right now (though they still aren't even close to D&D).
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Thu, 2010-05-27 21:31
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Creative Commons games: Eclipse Phase vs Leviathans
PhishStyx wrote:
Well, Richmond isn't a huge city, but I wouldn't exactly call it rural either. :) I understand what you're saying about distribution, and I'll consider trying it, but what's really going to give it (or any game) a boost is using it in to game in the store, so people can see it in play. When we played Shadowrun in the store (different store, same city), sales rocketed upward. When we stopped, they fell back again. At this particular store, Savage Worlds is suddenly big with the owner, so he's hosting games and sales are going up right now (though they still aren't even close to D&D).
Yeah, rural isn't the right word, but I can't remember a word for "not quite as urban as L.A.". The city where my game store is isn't particularly rural either. And yes, you are right. Mutants & Masterminds is the store's "minor RPG of choice" because of the promo games we hold for it there (and the fact that the store owner likes it). If we can convince enough people to try the game that they demand it from the store owner (or convince him to try it out and he likes it), that's generally what gets him to buy stock. He's getting close to wanting to buy more EP, but 5 people just isn't enough for it. The games I have held so far pull a modest draw (8 people playing), but not enough that we get any serious interest in sales. And yes, none of these even come close to competing with D&D.
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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