SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

Sat, 2010-05-08 12:28

#2

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

I would not include the Watts-MacLeod virus simply because it has no visible manifestations. I reserve the stress test for horror type versions, like ones that turn a person into a writhing mass of skin covered tentacles. Doesn't really make sense that the Watts-MacLeod manifestation would, unless they somehow do something that bends all the laws of physics.

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Sat, 2010-05-08 14:28

#3

Decivre

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

Zen Shooter wrote:
EP 214-215 says that encountering Exsurgent-infected transhumans requires a WILL x3 test, and, if failed, the gaining of 1D10 stress points. Does the Watts-MacLeod strain count? Because that's going to make having an async in the party pretty inconvenient.

According to page 219, the Watts-Macleod strain flushes itself from the body of an async shortly after rewriting the brain. This means that longtime asyncs no longer really have the virus, and are in fact no longer infected (or infectious, for that matter). You might require the test during the period of time shortly after acquisition of the virus, but not well after.

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Sat, 2010-05-08 16:00

#4

Zen Shooter Zen Shooter's picture

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

Decivre: Ah, very good point. Thanks.

Sat, 2010-05-08 21:38

#5

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

two words for you: Tetsuo Shima Remember how he started to "grow" when he started loosing control of his powers? I think something similar could happen to Async who completely loose their mind. The mind is gone, and deprived of its "symbiosis" partner, the virus enters a new phase and will alter the shape of the body in order to find a new host

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Sat, 2010-05-08 22:39

#6

Decivre

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

Quincey Forder wrote:
two words for you: Tetsuo Shima Remember how he started to "grow" when he started loosing control of his powers? I think something similar could happen to Async who completely loose their mind. The mind is gone, and deprived of its "symbiosis" partner, the virus enters a new phase and will alter the shape of the body in order to find a new host

I still argue that the virus is no longer present. I'd imagine that if it was, we'd have information on all the risks apparent: like sexual transmission. Besides, that sounds like something that would occur from a much more malicious strain of the Exsurgent virus, perhaps even a zombie strain (who doesn't love zombies?). As for a comparative to Tetsuo, I would say that the closest analog in Eclipse Phase terms to what happened to him was a critical failure. He would have been the equivalent to a level 3 async, and he was utilizing psi-epsilon sleights all over the place. If you read the section on them, critically failing at using such sleights has... devastating... consequences.

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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Sat, 2010-05-08 23:43

#7

King Shere King Shere's picture

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

I would argue that the virus is present in a async but "enveloped". The host having passed the eclipse phase of its infection. A async thus may bud new viruses, but can be dormant for a lifetime. Better for paranoia, and more in line with the behavior of biological viruses. But I otherwise agree that Asyncs shouldnt by default be regarded as a infectious. http://pathmicro.med.sc.edu/mhunt/replicat.htm

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Sat, 2010-05-08 23:50

#8

Decivre

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

King Shere wrote:
I would argue that the virus is present in a async but "enveloped". The host having passed the eclipse phase of its infection. A async thus may bud new viruses, but can be dormant for a lifetime. Better for paranoia, and more in line with the behavior of biological viruses. http://pathmicro.med.sc.edu/mhunt/replicat.htm

Very possible, but we must also note that the normal behavior of any biological disease doesn't really apply to the Exsurgent virus. There isn't a single virus out there that can change your body and mind fundamentally into an entirely new species like the xenomorph virus can, and no virus in existence can affect your computers as easily as it can affect people. The normal viral rules kinda fly out the window when you are dealing with an artificial, self-aware virus created by a highly advanced alien species... especially when it is on the level of the Exsurgent virus. Plus, I don't think Watts-Macleod only comes in biological nanovirus form. It is very possible that the Watts-Macleod strain can be contracted via digital virus or basilisk hack. The latter somewhat fits in line with my theories on Watts-Macleod as well, since I think that Psi-Assault and Control sleights are tactile basilisk hacks that asyncs can trigger subconsciously.

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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Sun, 2010-05-09 00:59

#9

King Shere King Shere's picture

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

Yes, obviously is the Exurgant viruses not a mere biological virus, though some inspiration & striking similarities in behavior seems to me evident. If I had to describe exurgant virus, It would be similar to "pico"machines capable of reading & "rewriting" electrons (thus information), regardless of what those electrons are or travels in.

Quote:
Computer viruses and 'real' biological viruses are bugs that make our lives difficult. According to molecular microbiologist Dr Trudy Wassenaar, they share more than a few common characteristics - and these similarities can help us to understand and control both better. http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/october/viruses.htm

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Sun, 2010-05-09 02:48

#10

Decivre

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

King Shere wrote:
Yes, obviously is the Exurgant viruses not a mere biological virus, though some inspiration & striking similarities in behavior seems to me evident. If I had to describe exurgant virus, It would be similar to "pico"machines capable of reading & "rewriting" electrons (thus information), regardless of what those electrons are or travels in.

I doubt it requires anything at the pico level for the Exsurgent virus to affect its victims. For instance, I think that basilisk hacks and digital versions of the virus can rewrite a person's mental state, but are not able to alter a person physically. This seems to be supported in the Glory adventure, where the AoK basilisk hack reprograms victims with an unending urge to infect themselves with the nanoplague version of the virus, which then alters the body. As for the means by which they reprogram the mind, the biological nanovirus and nanoplague variants both likely just directly affect the mind in the same way that syphilis or an ego bridge affects the mind. The digital virus likely does so through a medium similar to basilisk hacks, in that it uses various stimuli to manipulate the mind into self-programming, so to speak. If anything, the various media by which the virus can be passed can be look at as "morphs" for the virus: the digital version essentially an infomorph, the biological nanovirus a biomorph, and the nanoplague a synthmorph.

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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Sun, 2010-05-09 17:29

#11

King Shere King Shere's picture

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

Decivre wrote:
I doubt it requires anything at the pico level for the Exsurgent virus to affect its victims. For instance, I think that basilisk hacks and digital versions of the virus can rewrite a person's mental state, but are not able to alter a person physically. This seems to be supported in the Glory adventure, where the AoK basilisk hack reprograms victims with an unending urge to infect themselves with the nanoplague version of the virus, which then alters the body. As for the means by which they reprogram the mind, the biological nanovirus and nanoplague variants both likely just directly affect the mind in the same way that syphilis or an ego bridge affects the mind. The digital virus likely does so through a medium similar to basilisk hacks, in that it uses various stimuli to manipulate the mind into self-programming, so to speak. If anything, the various media by which the virus can be passed can be look at as "morphs" for the virus: the digital version essentially an infomorph, the biological nanovirus a biomorph, and the nanoplague a synthmorph.

I like your description of the virus use of various mediums as morphs. I wouldnt dismiss Exurgent virus existing at the pico level, because they doesn't act at that level. Most Nano machines seems to act at the micro level (the same level as bacteria). A "picomachine" virus, isnt restricted to affect its victims at that level, as its usually more efficient for it to affect victims at a larger scale (puns intended). The "picomachines" can also be capable of acting as a "ego" using the various mediums as its morph, and its a matter of definition if its the "ego", the "morph its in or both -that has the rightful claim of what they affect. Another matter of definition is whether a "infomorph virus" could alter something physical & at what point its method of doing it isnt. For example :Dataviruses can physically alter the hardware by overusing or overclocking components. Often destroying victimized components having them perform out of specs.There are Amiga viruses using Amigas internal floppy drive & its disk as music instrument ( Not healthy for the floppy disc or the discdrive). Though not done with a virus, same instrument. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT0JOIPxyE8

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Sun, 2010-05-09 19:54

#12

Decivre

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

King Shere wrote:
I like your description of the virus use of various mediums as morphs. I wouldnt dismiss Exurgent virus existing at the pico level, because they doesn't act at that level. Most Nano machines seems to act at the micro level (the same level as bacteria). A "picomachine" virus, isnt restricted to affect its victims at that level, as its usually more efficient for it to affect victims at a larger scale (puns intended). The "picomachines" can also be capable of acting as a "ego" using the various mediums as its morph, and its a matter of definition if its the "ego", the "morph its in or both -that has the rightful claim of what they affect. Another matter of definition is whether a "infomorph virus" could alter something physical & at what point its method of doing it isnt. For example :Dataviruses can physically alter the hardware by overusing or overclocking components. Often destroying victimized components having them perform out of specs.There are Amiga viruses using Amigas internal floppy drive & its disk as music instrument ( Not healthy for the floppy disc or the discdrive). Though not done with a virus, same instrument. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT0JOIPxyE8

I would imagine that the datavirus is capable of overusing and overclocking the mind, but only through reprogramming. Any modifications of the body it might do will likely only be a result of that reprogramming and its effects. I can imagine that slower physical modifications might occur (anything which can occur psychosomatically), while faster and greater modifications likely will require the biological nanovirus or nanoplague, at the very least to speed up the process. One thing I think should be noted is that the effects of those Amiga viruses were largely due to the openness that the architecture had to its software. It's not something generally possible with modern computers (I say "generally" because oversight often opens up such exploits). Admittedly, though, puppet socks and cyberbrains probably open up such potential exploits in the Eclipse Phase universe.

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Sun, 2010-05-09 21:15

#13

King Shere King Shere's picture

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

Decivre wrote:
I would imagine that the datavirus is capable of overusing and overclocking the mind, but only through reprogramming. Any modifications of the body it might do will likely only be a result of that reprogramming and its effects. I can imagine that slower physical modifications might occur (anything which can occur psychosomatically), while faster and greater modifications likely will require the biological nanovirus or nanoplague, at the very least to speed up the process.

"Dataviruses" would be capable of reprograming the architecture to cause anything that could occur somatic as well, not restricted to placebo/nocebo & Münchhausen psychosomatic changes. (though "delusions" & false readings are probably easier for it to create). I agree that the biological nanoviruses & nanoplague would be more optimal for physical modifications. Thus giving "good" reasons for data-infected to infect themselves with the nanoplague. Hmm, infected addicted to the notion of infecting themselves with anything they could get their hands on. Infectious cauldrons breeding new forms of strains.

Decivre wrote:
One thing I think should be noted is that the effects of those Amiga viruses were largely due to the openness that the architecture had to its software. It's not something generally possible with modern computers (I say "generally" because oversight often opens up such exploits). Admittedly, though, puppet socks and cyberbrains probably open up such potential exploits in the Eclipse Phase universe.

Well constructers tend to learn from previous faults & correct them, when building new models. So modern computers have "evolved" to have less chinks in their architecture. Some people however see it as a sport & challenge to find new exploits. In Eclipse Phase universe I would think some clever "exploit hunters" play music (or speak)by hacking/ manipulating the churning sound from biomorphs intestines. Even Just for giggles. Naturally the bio morph series discovered to be vulnerable to intestine instrument hacks were replaced by securer newer series. Some old series became reinstated due to their growing popularity as "instruments". ;)

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Mon, 2010-05-10 03:22

#14

Decivre

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

King Shere wrote:
"Dataviruses" would be capable of reprograming the architecture to cause anything that could occur somatic as well, not restricted to placebo/nocebo & Münchhausen psychosomatic changes. (though "delusions" & false readings are probably easier for it to create). I agree that the biological nanoviruses & nanoplague would be more optimal for physical modifications. Thus giving "good" reasons for data-infected to infect themselves with the nanoplague. Hmm, infected addicted to the notion of infecting themselves with anything they could get their hands on. Infectious cauldrons breeding new forms of strains.

Actually, I'd imagine that it's very possible that the various strains of the Exsurgent virus are actually independent entities with personal goals and agendas, very similar to the way that the TITANs continued to war with one another even after becoming Exsurgents. In that sense, it's likely that various strains of the virus program you with the desire to infect yourself with the same virus. Actually, that does bring up one thing I have been thinking for a while. Is it possible that the Exsurgent virus itself is one of the ETI, and the virus is, in fact, just the morph it uses?

King Shere wrote:
Well constructers tend to learn from previous faults & correct them, when building new models. So modern computers have "evolved" to have less chinks in their architecture. Some people however see it as a sport & challenge to find new exploits. In Eclipse Phase universe I would think some clever "exploit hunters" play music (or speak)by hacking/ manipulating the churning sound from biomorphs intestines. Even Just for giggles. Naturally the bio morph series discovered to be vulnerable to intestine instrument hacks were replaced by securer newer series. Some old series became reinstated due to their growing popularity as "instruments". ;)

I doubt that. Such modifications would only be possible if your implants gave you access to such body manipulations. Now I can see cyberware intestines being manipulated in such a way, but your ability to manipulate the body is largely limited to what parts of the body have been modified with mesh-accessible implants. For instance, you can't really modify a person's memories unless they have a cyberbrain or mnemonic enhancements. This sort of exploitability is probably the reason that bioware is so much more popular than the cyberware alternatives.

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Wed, 2010-05-12 21:21

#15

King Shere King Shere's picture

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

Decivre wrote:
Actually, that does bring up one thing I have been thinking for a while. Is it possible that the Exsurgent virus itself is one of the ETI, and the virus is, in fact, just the morph it uses?

Anything is possible for a GM, I tinkering & crafting tat the virus builds "neural pathways" for ETI the neural net constructed is a morph. And or that the viruses being a soldiers of a "army". The "army" gets more advanced & capable the more soldiers that are in the area. Viruses cooperating. This overall "army" & those giving it objectives would be a "ETI/AGI" entity. Or scenarios where Two (or more) seperate virii Armies giving each other orders & cooperate (the armies in a sense separate intelligent individuals with mutual goals).

Decivre wrote:
I doubt that. Such modifications would only be possible if your implants gave you access to such body manipulations. Now I can see cyberware intestines being manipulated in such a way, but your ability to manipulate the body is largely limited to what parts of the body have been modified with mesh-accessible implants. For instance, you can't really modify a person's memories unless they have a cyberbrain or mnemonic enhancements. This sort of exploitability is probably the reason that bioware is so much more popular than the cyberware alternatives.

Lots of real life drugs, poisons, viruses & bacteria can alter persons physiology, memories, perception of reality or cause memory loss. In EP I certainly can see, Unaware (forced) cyberification/biomodification. Victims or willing "drugged" with micro-machines "smart drugs." that cause physical effects & modifications. And since the physiology may differ between biomorphs models, exposure to these EP "smart drugs" should differ in their effects. For example: food spiked with a "smart drug" that constructs a music instrument inside intestines or alters the vocal cords "slightly".

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Thu, 2010-05-13 00:23

#16

Decivre

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

King Shere wrote:
Anything is possible for a GM, I tinkering & crafting tat the virus builds "neural pathways" for ETI the neural net constructed is a morph. And or that the viruses being a soldiers of a "army". The "army" gets more advanced & capable the more soldiers that are in the area. Viruses cooperating. This overall "army" & those giving it objectives would be a "ETI/AGI" entity. Or scenarios where Two (or more) seperate virii Armies giving each other orders & cooperate (the armies in a sense separate intelligent individuals with mutual goals).

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of any given virus strain actually being something akin to a swarmanoid... a network of interlinked nanomachines which house a single intelligence as a whole. In that sense, each given virus strain might have different agendas, and it may very well be possible that the Watts-Macleod strain is actually a benign member of this "species". Or, as an alternative, perhaps the ETI has one unified agenda, and each of the "strains" are individual intelligences working on their own independent strategies to the same goal.

King Shere wrote:
Lots of real life drugs, poisons, viruses & bacteria can alter persons physiology, memories, perception of reality or cause memory loss. In EP I certainly can see, Unaware (forced) cyberification/biomodification. Victims or willing "drugged" with micro-machines "smart drugs." that cause physical effects & modifications. And since the physiology may differ between biomorphs models, exposure to these EP "smart drugs" should differ in their effects. For example: food spiked with a "smart drug" that constructs a music instrument inside intestines or alters the vocal cords "slightly".

We've already established that the physical version of the virus is fully capable of manipulating the body in such a way. The question is whether a basilisk hack or digital virus would be capable of affect your physical body to any major degree. I would say no, simply because I think that the nonphysical versions of the virus are limited to whatever mental programming they can produce. This would likely be the reason that such variants as Glory cause an irresistable urge to be infected by the physical variant... because the nonphysical version is limited in capability.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Thu, 2010-05-13 07:21

#17

King Shere King Shere's picture

Re: SV Damage For Encountering Exsurgent-Infected Transhumans

Decivre wrote:
We've already established that the physical version of the virus is fully capable of manipulating the body in such a way. The question is whether a basilisk hack or digital virus would be capable of affect your physical body to any major degree. I would say no, simply because I think that the nonphysical versions of the virus are limited to whatever mental programming they can produce. This would likely be the reason that such variants as Glory cause an irresistable urge to be infected by the physical variant... because the nonphysical version is limited in capability.

I would say the virus are limited to the whats available to it at the "location", if it has access to brains functions that can alter the bodily (Pituitary gland excreting hormones for example) -then the virus have those capabilities too. Same conclusion though, Cases such as the Glory variant would still consider the nonphysical limited in capability.

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