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Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?

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Wed, 2008-10-29 23:06
#1
GregH GregH's picture
Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
Just on a curious whim... Was there any attempt (or evidence of attempt) by some nation or hypercorp or other party to leave the Solar System via STL travel and attempt to establish an extrasolar colony? It looks like there was certainly a lot of development in space travel prior to "the Fall"... at the least perhaps enough to make a "Seeder Ship" style go at it.
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Wed, 2008-11-05 16:45
RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
Yes, though we don't deal
Yes, though we don't deal with it much because these ships are still en route and will be for some time.
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Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

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Wed, 2008-11-05 21:23
GregH GregH's picture
... hmm. Can they still be
... hmm. Can they still be reached by transmitted Infomorphs? After re-reading Reynold's short story “Glacial” it strikes me that an interesting short story could develope around sending a team (or their forks as this could easily be a one-way trip) to investigate an outgoing vessel to find something has... happened.
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Wed, 2008-11-05 23:06
RobBoyle RobBoyle's picture
Yep, they'd be traveling at
Yep, they'd be traveling at sub-light speed, so transmissions would *eventually* catch up to them.
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Rob Boyle :: Posthuman Studios

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Wed, 2009-08-26 07:33
Cardul Cardul's picture
*hmms* I could see it: the
*hmms* I could see it: the Crew as Informorphs, and either cry-preserved bodies, or the makings of Sleeves in storage to make the first generation of colonists. Some really nice Simul-space places for the crew to go when they are not doing ship stuff..Of course, the ships are probably traveling at relativistic speeds, as well...It is probably more viable in teh Eclipse-phase period then it would be in the near future.
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Sun, 2009-12-20 21:42
vampire hunter D vampire hunter D's picture
Re: *hmms* I could see it:the
Something you could also do, send a small initial crew of coloniists to set up pre-fabriacted replicator units, grow or make new sleeves, and set up a reciever antennae. then back home all they'd need to do is egocast new colonists there and download them into the newly made sleeves. would be more efficient than sending the whole colony on the ship
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Mon, 2009-12-21 22:47
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
We also mention that the Titanians have sent out sub-light probes.
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Mon, 2010-01-18 00:38
The Sandman The Sandman's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
I suppose this is one reason why some of the corps would want lighthugger technology; there are a number of stars within twenty light-years of Sol that are potential targets for colonization, and if you get there first then you can charge any would-be pre-Fall colonists admission. You could also, of course, recover the copies of the databanks aboard those ships. They're pretty much guaranteed to have a few things stored there that, as far as most of transhumanity is concerned, were lost forever during the Fall. And then there's the question of how many of those ships are likely to run into Factors, or whoever else may be out there? Assuming the Factors are on the level about the "no Pandora Gates" thing, and are using lighthuggers, they probably aren't coming from all that far away.
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Mon, 2010-01-18 17:38
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
If the Factors don't use FTL (and are not a TITAN-spawned infiltration force as some claim), then we can even calculate how far away the visitors might originate. If the Factors start x lightyears distant and can move at speed v (less than c), then if their arrival date is year A they must have started in year A-x/v. The first radio signals were sent in ~1900, and if we add a delay D due to the time until the signals were strong enough to be received by the Factors and due to whatever delay there was in deciding to launch, 1900+D=A-x/v. Let's assume v is exactly lightspeed. And that D is actually 0 - they noticed an emergent technological civilization and rushed there as fast as they could. That would mean 1900=A-x. So if they arrived in 2080, that means they were 180 lightyears away. This is an upper limit. If we assume a more plausible speed of 0.1c and D=50 years (by that point Earth started sending out strong radar signals) we get a distance of 13 lightyears. That is pretty close.
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Sat, 2010-04-10 23:24
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
that's assuming a couple things A) that they use Relativist drive to propel their ships, in which case the 0.99c is their limit. They could very well use space fold-type FTL like in BSG. Or some dimension portal to a space where relativity isn't what it is in our universe (like in Babylon 5) or wormholes gates (Stargate SG1, Fading Suns) B) that they don't have some relay bases/beacons that transform radio waves into neutrino or tachyons for FTL comms. there's another possibility: that the Factors, or those who employ them (they're ambassadors to several civilisations, right?) haven't been watching humans from either close or not to far away why don't they want us to have the P-Gates, by the way, or at least not the use of them? because it would unleash some cataclysms? it was something like that happening in the universe of Fading Suns, the portals are sucking the stars dry. Do they seek to protect something or someone from us? or us from something/someone? or maybe we're some kind of amusement for them, or a legacy or experiment. (there was an interresting line in Doctor Who about that. Amy learns that the Doctor isn't human. she says in that lovely scottish accent of hers: "but you look like a human" and the doc says "No, you look like Timelords. We came first.") Or maybe they just don't want to loose some monopoly
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Sun, 2010-04-11 03:56
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
Quincey Forder wrote:
that's assuming a couple things A) that they use Relativist drive to propel their ships, in which case the 0.99c is their limit. They could very well use space fold-type FTL like in BSG. Or some dimension portal to a space where relativity isn't what it is in our universe (like in Babylon 5) or wormholes gates (Stargate SG1, Fading Suns)
The books say that Factors come to us using lighthugger ships, which assuming by their name are ships that are able to get very close to the speed of light very quickly. The only known space fold technology is Pandora gates, which they so far seem to loathe the use of.
Quincey Forder wrote:
B) that they don't have some relay bases/beacons that transform radio waves into neutrino or tachyons for FTL comms. there's another possibility: that the Factors, or those who employ them (they're ambassadors to several civilisations, right?) haven't been watching humans from either close or not to far away why don't they want us to have the P-Gates, by the way, or at least not the use of them? because it would unleash some cataclysms? it was something like that happening in the universe of Fading Suns, the portals are sucking the stars dry. Do they seek to protect something or someone from us? or us from something/someone? or maybe we're some kind of amusement for them, or a legacy or experiment. (there was an interresting line in Doctor Who about that. Amy learns that the Doctor isn't human. she says in that lovely scottish accent of hers: "but you look like a human" and the doc says "No, you look like Timelords. We came first.") Or maybe they just don't want to loose some monopoly
Neutrino communications are not FTL. The only known FTL communication systems are QE systems, which utilize quantum teleportation. As for gates, it's one of the big riddles of the setting. Not only do they adamantly tell us not to use Pandora gates, but also to avoid the creation of AGI. It makes me wonder how they'll react to the presence of asyncs.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Mon, 2010-04-12 06:43
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
Maybe their dislike of gates and AGI is a bit like the restrictions on FTL in Alastair Reynold's novels: FTL drives can be built, but they are *bad*. They do things to causality that are so dangerous that all mature species strongly discourage their uses. Maybe the Factors are doing something similar. AGI tends to evolve into superintelligences that all converge to the ETI or AIXI, and this spells disaster for lesser beings nearby. Using the gates depletes some nonrenewable resource (maybe the quantum entanglement needed to keep the universe together?) But if this is true, why are the Factors so bad at explaining it? One reason might be that the real problem is extremly complex, and doesn't *fit* into human minds.
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Extropian
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Mon, 2010-04-12 11:34
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
"A) that they use Relativist drive to propel their ships, in which case the 0.99c is their limit. " It isn't unless they have very efficient shields, otherwise they would be destroyed by impacts in interstellar medium. At 0.99c even the smallest particle impact is a devastating event. I remember a lenghty debate about interstellar travel with current theoretical materials on astronomy forums, and from what I remember the reasonable speed is 25-30% of light. Thus the Factors would need some unconventional means of travel or protection. "there's another possibility: that the Factors, or those who employ them (they're ambassadors to several civilisations, right?) haven't been watching humans from either close or not to far away" A seperate thread on Factors is needed. Personally I view them more of scavenger type civilization that hides in interstellar medium.
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Mon, 2010-04-12 12:19
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
Attempting to Catch up to a prefall colony (or Generation) ship eh? I can see such attempts & plans happening. Another scenario is that there are still ships "attempting" to escape the fall -but are still pursued by Fire-and-forget "missiles" of the (now gone)Titans. Neither hunted nor the hunters receive hails due to "healthy" paranoia. Neither slowing down -since the chase is still hot. [b]Regarding the off-topic Factors[/b] The distance of 13 light years of factors point of origin, is just receiving Factors within that range. If that was the case, They likely picked up the signals in a moving ship. With a unknown distance to its home harbor. I however think that the Pandora gates squealed, and were "trace-routed". [i]Why Factors dont like the use of Pandora gates & AGI?[/i] "Yes they are efficient, but such methods come with a price & a messy cleanup" Perhaps the Factors are themselves using the Pandora technology power grids & "Pandora" power-plants. Not necessary the original builders/inventors of the Pandora technology, Even happy salvager's like to maintain their power-grid. New squatters actions threaten this & motivate Factors to preempt; Power plant overload, Power grid distribution issues, Cascading failures & resource depletion. Then there is the motto's "There are secrets a child should never know", "Acts a child should not do". Most grownups often attempt to disarm a fork armed "toddler" near a power conduit.
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Mon, 2010-04-12 19:14
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
King Shere wrote:
Attempting to Catch up to a prefall colony (or Generation) ship eh? I can see such attempts & plans happening. Another scenario is that there are still ships "attempting" to escape the fall -but are still pursued by Fire-and-forget "missiles" of the (now gone)Titans. Neither hunted nor the hunters receive hails due to "healthy" paranoia. Neither slowing down -since the chase is still hot.
If you want to be nasty, have the ETI probe scan for ships with certain traits leaving the Solar System, and then infect them with Exsurgent virus. Any players arriving on board will have to deal with very dangerous situation. (yes it is a bit stolen from Fading Suns).
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Mon, 2010-04-12 19:37
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
If you want to be nasty, have the ETI probe scan for ships with certain traits leaving the Solar System, and then infect them with Exsurgent virus. Any players arriving on board will have to deal with very dangerous situation. (yes it is a bit stolen from Fading Suns).
Good idea. "Bad artists copy. Great artists steal.",In such a scenario. Any player attempting to catch the "escaping" ships-would end up in a dangerous situation, as they would likely fulfill the criteria traits too. Or how where they going to reach the distressed ship? "In their attempt to reach the injured fleeing civilians -The rescuers pursued (into the minefield) unaware of the danger.."
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[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/tc_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/exh_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/argo_userbar.jpg[/img] [i]"To find fault is easy; to do better may be difficult."[/i] Plutarch
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Tue, 2010-04-13 01:28
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
Arenamontanus wrote:
Maybe their dislike of gates and AGI is a bit like the restrictions on FTL in Alastair Reynold's novels: FTL drives can be built, but they are *bad*. They do things to causality that are so dangerous that all mature species strongly discourage their uses. Maybe the Factors are doing something similar. AGI tends to evolve into superintelligences that all converge to the ETI or AIXI, and this spells disaster for lesser beings nearby. Using the gates depletes some nonrenewable resource (maybe the quantum entanglement needed to keep the universe together?) But if this is true, why are the Factors so bad at explaining it? One reason might be that the real problem is extremly complex, and doesn't *fit* into human minds.
Here are my theories: Gates [list][*]Whatever alien groups the factors work for monopolize the use of gate technology. The factors are trying to get us to stop using it so we don't piss off their bosses. [*]The ETI are still around, still dangerous, and the factors quake in their boots at the thought of their presence. They are afraid that continual use of the gates will attract their attention. [*]The factors are trying to prevent us from making contact with other alien species, so that they can be our only envoy to the rest of the galaxy.[/list] AI [list][*]They know about the bracewell probes, and know that they target AI technology. Either they don't know that we already got attacked by it, or are trying to stop us from doing it again. [*]They themselves had a "TITAN" problem in their past, and they are basically had a much more radical, but similar, reaction as did transhumanity to Seed AI and AI in general. [*]The original ETI are actually an AI race that annihilated its creators and ascended to godhood. Self-evolving AI eventually transcend to become the same thing that ETI are, and the Exsurgent virus is actually software which speeds up the process. The factors are trying to prevent more ETI from being created.[/list]
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Tue, 2010-04-13 02:37
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
My personal theory is that the Pandora Gates [i]are[/i] the Bracewell Probes that infected the TITANs. As for why they don't infect everything that passes through them, well, it might simply be that the ETI possesses a multi-stage plan (and that's why the TITANs buggered off before they killed everyone), and the Pandora Gates functioning like they do is simply a part of Stage Two, or that the ephemeral sensations experienced by people passing through a Pandora Gate are what infected the TITANs with the Exsurgent Virus. As for the Factors, remember that radio signals will be nearly indistinguishable from the background noise past .3 light-years thanks to the inverse-square rule.
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Tue, 2010-04-13 05:05
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
nick012000 wrote:
My personal theory is that the Pandora Gates [i]are[/i] the Bracewell Probes that infected the TITANs. As for why they don't infect everything that passes through them, well, it might simply be that the ETI possesses a multi-stage plan (and that's why the TITANs buggered off before they killed everyone), and the Pandora Gates functioning like they do is simply a part of Stage Two, or that the ephemeral sensations experienced by people passing through a Pandora Gate are what infected the TITANs with the Exsurgent Virus. As for the Factors, remember that radio signals will be nearly indistinguishable from the background noise past .3 light-years thanks to the inverse-square rule.
Perhaps, but the gates weren't there before... they came about after the TITANs prepared to leave. Maybe they were moved by the TITANs to their current locations. As for radio signals, remember that a more powerful transmitter will be able to send radio signals farther. Technically the inverse-square law affects all radio transmissions at all ranges... which is why transmitters generally have a measured range limitation. Directionalizing the transmission also helps. Besides, they're probably utilizing neutrino emissions, which can travel much farther and are unblockable or jammable. It's that stupid speed of light thing that holds it back. :D I think the Exsurgent virus was intended to evolve beings to ETI-level intelligence. Because of its sheer speed, those infected seem to go insane until their minds can fully grasp the knowledge that's being uploaded into it... resulting in the crazy Exsurgents. With asyncs, it is different however. The Watts-Macleod strain is a slower-working version of the virus that introduces the mind gradually to ETI-level brain functions, which prevents them from going (as) batshit insane as other Exurgents. Psi abilities aren't actual psychic power, but rather innate alien brain functions that requires psi brainwaves to work. I don't think the ETI are actually malevolent, just trying to force us to evolve... crazy Exsurgents is an "unfortunate side-effect".
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Tue, 2010-04-13 22:48
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
Decivre wrote:
Perhaps, but the gates weren't there before... they came about after the TITANs prepared to leave. Maybe they were moved by the TITANs to their current locations.
Or, perhaps, we never looked in the right places to begin with. The Solar System is a big place, and transhumanity had only barely started looking at it when the Fall arrived. A hundred times as many people lived in space after the Fall, and a hundred pairs of eyes are much more likely to see something than one pair of eyes.
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Wed, 2010-04-14 09:15
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
I have always found the idea that the gates were always there somewhat hard to swallow. Certainly they are in fairly inaccessible locations and there are more people around now, but they do not look like they are located close to places where the TITANs were very active. One explanation might be that the gates were indeed always there, but folded closed. The first time a TITAN opened one (perhaps the Earth gate hidden right in plain sight in Chesapeake Bay, or the one on Mars) they all expanded to their "open" configuration where they were obvious to non-TITANs too. One reason for this could be that the gates are tests: any intelligence smart enough to detect and open one is one that needs a dose of Exsurgent virus. But to ensure that the whole civilization gets affected all gates in the vicinity gets opened, allowing "treatment" of less developed parts. Sure, gatecrashers do not get infected by the virus, but that is just because the virus has already been spread. Now the gates are doing other things, like gathering intel (such as copies of all egos passing through them), distracting the locals or awaiting the arrival of an ETI cleanup crew...
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Wed, 2010-04-14 16:49
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
Quote:
any intelligence smart enough to detect and open one is one that needs a dose of Exsurgent virus
Somewhat like Diamond Dogs by Alastair Reynolds ? :) I thought of this as well in the context of Factors. The Gates travel function could be just a side effect of their real function-for example connecting to some kind of intergalactic ETI communication network. Normal beings like humans with their limited intelligence appear to ETI communication like small background noise in telephone lines. Of course if humans start using Pandora Gates en masse they could get noticed. The feelings of posession or other thoughts result from interfering with the information streamed through those nodes. This is of course the reason why Factors would be afraid of their use-if this is continued ETI intervention could happen. But then again, I have a feeling Factors don't count on long term survival of humanity ;)
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Wed, 2010-04-28 20:52
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
I was wondering about something is Factor REALLY a single species? or could it be a secret faction among the alien civilisations, like, say Firewall to the humans? Kinda like the Wraith in Mass Effect. Who know, if we survive, as a species, long enough, one of us might become a Factor too? not unlike a certain John Sheppard?
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Fri, 2010-04-30 00:35
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Pre-Pandora extrasolar colony attempts?
Quincey Forder wrote:
I was wondering about something is Factor REALLY a single species? or could it be a secret faction among the alien civilisations, like, say Firewall to the humans? Kinda like the Wraith in Mass Effect. Who know, if we survive, as a species, long enough, one of us might become a Factor too? not unlike a certain John Sheppard?
I was thinking the same thing at one point. What if the factors are actually just one morph for an entire group of transalien races? Perhaps they have a multitude of morph types, but the factor morph is most commonly used for communicating with fledgling space-faring races.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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