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Hacking

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Sun, 2010-03-14 09:39

Kami-Kaze

Hacking

Okay, two questions, both about the world of hacking. First up, just how long are most hacking actions? And if two hackers are working against each other, is there anything like initiative or turn orders or what? Second, it seems as if reaching 'covert' or 'hidden' status as an intruder makes you effectively untouchable unless you roll a severe failure or two or a crit failure as there are no available countermeasures for the monitor. Is this intended or are there ways of the monitor doing anything (for example, if the monitor actually notices the real-world effects of a hacking action, like turnin all the lights off, would they be able to activate a passive alert? And if so, would being Hidden make their efforts pointless anyway?)

Tue, 2010-03-16 11:47

Kami-Kaze

Re: Hacking

Nothing on this? Just a problem for me as i'm currently rather an 'action hacker', acting as both my group's heavy and their mesh-user, so it seems like this is going to come up a bit.

Tue, 2010-03-16 13:42

killj0y

Re: Hacking

First thought is the skill so we head to p180 and look up the infosec skill which gives us a reference to the mesh starting on page 234. Flipping ahead a bit in the chapter leads us to p254 with the section on Intrusion. There is a breakout box on the bottom of 255 that lists the initial intrusion as 10 minutes to break the firewall. This can be reduced somewhat if you don't care about being subtle. Brute force hacking only takes 1 minute but you're going to be detected. p120 gives options for rushing. which can reduce the time by up to 60% or about 8 action turns. This came up in a previous thread and this was about the best we could do. It may be possible to gain extra bonuses or achieve the same level of success without tipping your hand to security but nothing has seemed to reduce the time below 8 rounds.

Tue, 2010-03-16 13:51

Kami-Kaze

Re: Hacking

Ah. My problem isn't the initial intrusion, it's how long it actually takes for each action after that. As in, if action is going on outside of the Mesh (a raging gunbattle, for example) and i'm also hacking at the same time, how long are the actions i'm taking in the mesh? Is each subversion I do a quick action? A complex action? I don't think there's anywhere that actually details this.

Tue, 2010-03-16 18:59

nick012000 nick012000's picture

Re: Hacking

killj0y wrote:
First thought is the skill so we head to p180 and look up the infosec skill which gives us a reference to the mesh starting on page 234. Flipping ahead a bit in the chapter leads us to p254 with the section on Intrusion. There is a breakout box on the bottom of 255 that lists the initial intrusion as 10 minutes to break the firewall. This can be reduced somewhat if you don't care about being subtle. Brute force hacking only takes 1 minute but you're going to be detected. p120 gives options for rushing. which can reduce the time by up to 60% or about 8 action turns. This came up in a previous thread and this was about the best we could do. It may be possible to gain extra bonuses or achieve the same level of success without tipping your hand to security but nothing has seemed to reduce the time below 8 rounds.

The Instinct Psi Sleight will decrease brute forcing to 2 combat turns (6 seconds).

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Tue, 2010-03-16 22:56

Decivre

Re: Hacking

nick012000 wrote:
The Instinct Psi Sleight will decrease brute forcing to 2 combat turns (6 seconds).

No, that only happens with pure thinking and planning. Anything that requires any effort, even mental, only gets reduced by 30%. Granted, you can do in 42 seconds what others will do in a minute.

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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2010-03-17 13:54

killj0y

Re: Hacking

Ah sorry, I did find another way to reduce it below 8 rounds. If you get a MoS you can reduce it by 10% for each 10 points of MoS. So you could get the -60% and another -40% from MoS depending on the difficulty of the firewall which could reduce it to 1-2 rounds depending. As to actions after that I would say they work on a 1 to 1 basis since they aren't listed as task actions. The only reason hacking the firewall takes so long is that it is a task action with a stated duration.

Thu, 2010-03-18 11:15

Octomorph

Re: Hacking

Kami-Kaze wrote:
Ah. My problem isn't the initial intrusion, it's how long it actually takes for each action after that. As in, if action is going on outside of the Mesh (a raging gunbattle, for example) and i'm also hacking at the same time, how long are the actions i'm taking in the mesh? Is each subversion I do a quick action? A complex action? I don't think there's anywhere that actually details this.

I treat most infosec/programming tests as complex actions - you've got to be paying attention to what your're doing. That's why having a muse/ghostrider/infomorph or some of the other implants are key if you want to get your mesh speed up. You are NOT (at least in my games) going to be able to run and gun while simultaneously breaking into the security system. :)

Thu, 2010-03-18 14:12

Decivre

Re: Hacking

Kami-Kaze wrote:
Ah. My problem isn't the initial intrusion, it's how long it actually takes for each action after that. As in, if action is going on outside of the Mesh (a raging gunbattle, for example) and i'm also hacking at the same time, how long are the actions i'm taking in the mesh? Is each subversion I do a quick action? A complex action? I don't think there's anywhere that actually details this.

Most actions you take on the mesh will be complex actions, including subversions. Some will only be quick actions, such as sending commands to your AIs and messages to your teammates. Granted, there are plenty of ways to get extra mental/mesh complex actions, so this shouldn't be too big a problem. This, of course, requires you to finish intruding first, which is a task action.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Thu, 2010-03-25 07:07

#10

Kami-Kaze

Re: Hacking

Hrm. Well, that's the 'time' problem answered. I'm still curious about the second part of my original post. If you reach Covert Admin status, it seems as if you are almost untouchable unless you do something like trying to lockout another admin perhaps (which would run the risk of accidentally downgrading yourself with a severe failure). If you reach Hidden Status, it also specifically says that the security systems cannot act against you I believe. Doesn't this make you effectively unstoppable at that point, or is the intention that if you start doing anything that they might notice then they can still take you straight to Spotted status as they realize something isn't quite right?

Thu, 2010-03-25 07:16

#11

Decivre

Re: Hacking

Kami-Kaze wrote:
Hrm. Well, that's the 'time' problem answered. I'm still curious about the second part of my original post. If you reach Covert Admin status, it seems as if you are almost untouchable unless you do something like trying to lockout another admin perhaps (which would run the risk of accidentally downgrading yourself with a severe failure). If you reach Hidden Status, it also specifically says that the security systems cannot act against you I believe. Doesn't this make you effectively unstoppable at that point, or is the intention that if you start doing anything that they might notice then they can still take you straight to Spotted status as they realize something isn't quite right?

Essentially Hidden means that all of your traces on the target system have been perfectly hidden, and the system doesn't even know you are there. You have managed to find an exploit that renders you completely undetectable. Now certain actions you do might tip off somebody that something is wrong, but that doesn't necessarily mean they know they were hacked. Instead, it might look like a glitch in the system has caused data to be altered, or some other anomaly. However, enough suspicious activity, even when hidden, might result in somebody restarting the system to get all the kinks out, or disconnect any external connections. That said, the only real way to get tipped off at this point is to do something stupid, or botch an action... getting a failure with an MoF of 30+ will push you down to covert status, while critically failing will still get you locked out of the system.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Sun, 2010-04-18 21:59

#12

Cloud and Water Cloud and Water's picture

Re: Hacking

I had some questions about hacking and this seems like as good a place as any to ask them. First off, why would anyone take the -30 intrusion test modifier for admin privileges when a MoS of 30 grants you hidden status, which is better than having admin privileges? It also means you can at least get user privileges at covert status if you fail, with the possibility of upgrading them later. Second, does someone need to make a separate opposed intrusion test for every AI, Infomorph, etc. monitoring a system? The joint hacking/securing sidebar on pg. 258 implies this, but it seems like it would be trivial for anyone running a network to fork and run as many security AI's as the system could handle and team them up in groups of 4 for the maximum +30 teamwork modifier(powergame basically ;) ). This would make breaking into any even moderately secure system require an army of hackers. Is this one of those areas where realism needs to sacrificed for playability? I'm don't really mind if it is, but I was just wondering if anyone could think of some in-universe reason this would be infeasible.

Mon, 2010-04-19 11:21

#13

Decivre

Re: Hacking

Cloud and Water wrote:
I had some questions about hacking and this seems like as good a place as any to ask them. First off, why would anyone take the -30 intrusion test modifier for admin privileges when a MoS of 30 grants you hidden status, which is better than having admin privileges? It also means you can at least get user privileges at covert status if you fail, with the possibility of upgrading them later. Second, does someone need to make a separate opposed intrusion test for every AI, Infomorph, etc. monitoring a system? The joint hacking/securing sidebar on pg. 258 implies this, but it seems like it would be trivial for anyone running a network to fork and run as many security AI's as the system could handle and team them up in groups of 4 for the maximum +30 teamwork modifier(powergame basically ;) ). This would make breaking into any even moderately secure system require an army of hackers. Is this one of those areas where realism needs to sacrificed for playability? I'm don't really mind if it is, but I was just wondering if anyone could think of some in-universe reason this would be infeasible.

Largely it's an issue of risk assessment. While admin privileges are inferior to the power you gain from hidden status, you continue to have admin privileges if your status changes, while hidden status can be lost, along with all the benefits it entails. If the task you need done necessitates admin rights to a system, you are better off going for admin rights than you are hoping for hidden status. As for your second question, either is an option. If the team chooses to work in unison, the team leader makes a single roll with teamwork bonuses. The advantage is the benefit of having improved stats during the process of hacking, but the disadvantage is that the entire team is limited to doing one task in unison, and cannot multitask to any greater degree than a single person could. On the other hand, if a group of hackers individually hack into a system, they may all do different tasks individually, but they are only as good as their weakest link: one person getting caught risks the entire group. While it is possible to fork and run a network of infomorph hackers, there are some potential disadvantages to a hacker team. For instance, any people keeping eyes on local wireless signals might find the massive cluster of signals occurring at the same time from one spot to be suspicious. Even if they spread out so their wireless signals are less clustered together, there is the login count; one extra login looks far less suspicious than 4 people logging in at the same exact time. Lastly, the words about intrusion are a bit misleading when it comes to your starting status. You only gain hidden status if you get a +30 MoS [i]and anyone monitoring the system fails their infosec test to detect it[/i] (or if no one is actually monitoring it). If they also succeed, you gain spotted status, no matter how good your roll was, because they noticed you. If you go for admin privileges, you can still have admin access despite being noticed.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]