The corebook says you can retry with a -10 accumulative penalty 6 times in an action roll. This makes even impossible to fail. Is this a logical rule? I have banned it from my game, how do you handle this rule?
Thanks in advance!
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The -10x6 rule
Wed, 2017-02-08 05:10
#1
Kssian
The -10x6 rule
Wed, 2017-02-08 07:29
#2
ikkaan
Well, it is kind of
Well, it is kind of impossible to fail, yes. But you forget that a task has a duration which the GM sets.
Imagine climbing a steep cliff. There are several paths to take upwards - but not all might succeed. You could get stuck on the way up, but climbing backwards and then upwards again is tiresome and takes a lot of time.
If you set the basic timeframe to 30 Minutes and the Character fails this means that if he/she takes another three attempts, the Character is climbing constantly for 2 hours (probably requiring a check to see if he has to take breaks in between to avoid exhaustion). Which in itself may pose other challenges (guards change, a scan of the wall is done every hour, the party the character wanted to eavesdrop on ends the meeting and departs, etc.)
Short time windows can pose a challenge if a check is constantly retried.
Wed, 2017-02-08 14:17
#3
Axel the Chimeric
Ikkaan has the right of it;
Ikkaan has the right of it; you can retry but each attempt is a separate action. This means players aren't likely to fail actions they're well-prepared for in perpetuity, but improvised or short timeframe actions are still dramatic.
Plus, each failure can have consequences in its own right; costs to retry, etc.
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[code][@-rep +1, f-rep +2][/code]
Wed, 2017-02-08 15:36
#4
Trappedinwikipedia
I don't use it for simple or
I don't use it for simple or complex actions success tests, or opposed tests, as those generally make weird things happen. There are exceptions to this rule, and I'm mostly just trying to exclude things like shooting at someone or limited windows like spotting someone move between rocks.
It's a little bit more complicated than just trying after the whole test. If someone is trying to scale a cliff with a 30 minute timeframe, needs a 50, and rolls a 65, they realize that their path won't work after 3 minutes and can re-test with the penalty.
This means that if someone has no time pressure, and a decent chance of success (~30% or more) they are very likely to succeed given enough time. I like the way Eclipse Phase mostly works on how long it takes to succeed at these things instead of arbitrarily deciding if it's possible.
It does mean that you can roll very few dice when time isn't a factor, you can just look at the average time needed to almost certainly succeed and use that, which I like a lot when running a slower paced Gatecrashing session or similar.
Wed, 2017-02-08 19:15
#5
ORCACommander
I was always under the
I was always under the impression the -10's stacked
Wed, 2017-02-08 20:31
#6
MAD Crab
Eh. I hate 'try until it
Eh. I hate 'try until it succeeds' methodology. If nothing happened when you failed the first time, why were we even rolling? I much prefer the 'fail forward' method. Only call for a roll if either A) failing this task means you did your best and couldn't succeed or B) failing to do the task once has an interesting consequence that changes the situation.
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Wed, 2017-02-08 23:24
#7
Trappedinwikipedia
I'm pretty sure they do stack
I'm pretty sure they do stack.
With as many tries as possible allowed here's the overall success for each 10% increment of initial success chance.
10%=10% (1 try)
20%=28% (2 tries)
30%=44% (3 tries)
40%=70% (4 tries)
50%=85% (5 tries)
60%=93% (always 6 tries from here)
70%=97%
80%=99.4%
90%=99.92%
I used this equation:
(1-(x*(x+.1)*(x+.2)*(x+.3)*(x+.4)*(x+.5)*(x+.6)))*100=y
where x is the failure chance, and y is the success chance. I also ignored cases where the success chance is negative, (Cap failure odds at 1) so this equation isn't really plug and play.
As you can see the odds increase more the more initial conditions. If there's no time pressure and you just want to see if it's possible period, than taking the whole time, and rolling for the overall chance of success would really speed things up. You could also assume that if you have a 70% chance of success or better and no time pressure, you just succeed.
On the other hand, the "taking time" rules essentially do this already, and are much friendlier to doing math at a table. It'll also mean that you're very likely to succeed with the extra time taken well before you could with just retrying. Taking Time and Retrying can be combined though, so basically, if it's possible and there's no time pressure, many things are possible.
Fri, 2017-02-10 03:07
#8
CordialUltimate2
There is something called
There is something called "simple success test". Look it up in the rulebook. It is called for when you can retry something until you've done it. You can roll just once instead of six times. Isn't it amazing?
EDIT:
And as others have said already, always ask yourself: "What are the consequences of failure?" If they're none why bother rolling?
EDIT:
Expenditure of time is a consequence when there is limited amount of time to be had.
Expenditure of limited resources (credits, ammunition, physical fortitude, fabbers mass, energy) is a consequence.
If your player repeatedly attempts a task with a lot of investment (time, energy, not seeing anybody because you devote all the time to cracking this DRM.) Make them roll for stress.
In real life when you fail at something which matters even when you try and try again is stressful. If they persist they will understand the price. When they succeed let them heal SOME stress back. This mechanic is appropriate for long downtime or preparation activities. When you are running from exurgent abomination failure to outrun it is punishment enough.
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