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Massdriver

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dare dare's picture
Massdriver
From Sunward, p. 91: "Small mass driver assemblies (~200 meters in length) are not uncommon at most medium-sized and larger Lunar settlements. These large railguns can launch small packages of cargo into orbit cheaply and at a high rate." ... surely ~200 metres cannot be right? I did a quick set of calculations with my rusty physics, and came to the conclusion that to reach Lunar escape velocity this would require an acceleration of something like 1400 G, which, I find unlikely. Does anyone have any realistic suggestions for the value of mass driver acceleration? (I'm designing Ger∂r in more detail for my campaign, and I figure they'll just fling their mined goods into orbit to be picked up by slow transport; I'm trying to figure out the length of the mass driver.) Also, btw, Tindr crater is awesome. I'm planning on 3D modelling quite a bit of Ger∂r, even though so far I've only done the crater and the central pit. So far I've only done the very first bit; see http://posthuman.karmavector.org/images/Kuvitus/tindr-gerdr.jpg (I'll make the model available as well, once I've done something more than a grey crater.)
http://posthuman.karmavector.org/ - my EP Campaigns (in Finnish, mostly)
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
1400 gravities of
1400 gravities of acceleration is totally reasonable for a cargo mass driver. Mined goods and most electronics and rockets either innately are, or can easily be hardened to survive huge accelerations. Space Gun designs today easily exceed 1400 Gs of acceleration. Of course, it'll often be less than that because they're usually just shooting into Lunar orbit.
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
a friend of mine for a school
a friend of mine for a school project made a gauss driver that accelerated a 1 gram projectile to 40 km/h with only a couple feet of coil
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
Was that supposed to be a
Was that supposed to be a velocity?
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
ya it was. Helped some
ya it was. Helped some friends move yesterday and am still destroyed from the experience. proof reading capabilities have been slow to return to a functional state
base3numeral base3numeral's picture
The present state of the art may blow your mind
Per Wikipedia, the US Navy currently has a railgun that can accelerate projectiles to above 3 km/s, a bit more than Lunar escape velocity at 2.4 km/s. And the current version is a little shorter than 200 m. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun So with EP level tech, that acceleration is totally within the realm of possibility. Which is probably Trappedinwikipedia's point. We'll free you from there one day!
Strength in depth... The Fleet
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
It's been a long time since I
It's been a long time since I looked it up, but if I'm remembering correctly experiments with off the shelf electronics potted in epoxy could survive up to 20,000Gs of uniform acceleration. The trick is how small all the 'delicate' bits are. I think it was for the SHARP project?
dare dare's picture
Looked up some more data, and
Looked up some more data, and sure enough, 1000 G's seems to be doable according to some real-world scientists. I'm surprised, but not complaining.
http://posthuman.karmavector.org/ - my EP Campaigns (in Finnish, mostly)
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
dare wrote:Looked up some
dare wrote:
Looked up some more data, and sure enough, 1000 G's seems to be doable according to some real-world scientists. I'm surprised, but not complaining.
1000 g's is doable for what? Solid inanimate objects? I believe some of the rail guns being tested today exceed 60,000 G's in acceleration when firing solid projectiles. I'm guessing your 1000 g target is based off the object being fired being something where damage is more of a consideration. Incidentally, while they may say that these guns are used to put packages in orbit cheaply they are not the only source of propulsion for those packages. It simply isn't possible to shoot something into orbit without a secondary method of propulsion because the elliptical orbit would trace back through the gun. The full operation is probably something along these lines: Assuming the railgun is 200m in length the package is accelerated at about 650 G to a velocity of about 1.6 km/s. It is given a fairly flat trajectory that would not normally exceed an altitude of 50km and during the trip it fires a small metallic hydrogen rocket that accelerates it to a circular orbit of 50km. To do this the engine needs to generate a Δv of an additional 400 m/s. This requires a burn of about 13 seconds (assuming that the metallic hydrogen produces 3 G of acceleration). Assuming metallic hydrogen has a specific impulse of 1600 2.5% of the launching mass would need to be reaction mass. You would have a bit more taken up with the nozzles, power supply, and stabilizing em field generator but you are probably looking at about 90-95% of the launch mass being cargo, which is really good. Incidentally, you could also launch at even slower speeds. 250 G's would give you a muzzle velocity of around 1 km/s but you would be required to now use 6% of your launch mass as remass. This is still better than using 12% of your launching mass which is what is required without the rail gun.
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Amazon Prime has gotten really extreme.
Why circularize at all? Presumably the cargo is going to be picked up by a tug to take it to it's final destination anyway.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
It makes it easier to
It makes it easier to intercept. Picking up cargo is pretty much the same as a docking maneuver and trying to match a highly elliptical orbit is always a pain in the behind. Also, you've got to spend at least some secondary propulsion to bring up your periapsis, unless you just trust people to always collect the cargo before it can complete a single orbit. Otherwise your minimum periapsis is the elevation of the railgun (it can and probably will be lower but it can never be higher unless your launch velocity is high enough that you are on an escape trajectory). If you are already doing that circularizing the orbit actually isn't all that hard. Just make sure the vehicle remains pointed in the direction of travel (i.e. make sure the engine is pointed directly prograde) and as you approach apoapsis fire the engines. You will gain a small amount of altitude for your apoapsis since you aren't completely parallel with the surface (that only happens at apoapsis) but most of your energy will go into raising your periapsis. Since your initial trajectory was a little shy of 50 km at apoapsis the small amount of increase will bump you up to right around 50 km. Cut off the engine when your apoapsis and periapsis match and you're circular. I do this more or less 'by hand' (computers keep the ship facing prograde) in Orbiter all the time and if I'm being really obsessive I can get a perfectly circular orbit every time by using the RCS for final adjustments (I mention that I have to be really obsessive to do this. It isn't that its hard, its just that generally you don't worry as long as periapsis and apoapsis are within a dozen km of each other).
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Quote:1000 g's is doable for
Quote:
1000 g's is doable for what? Solid inanimate objects?
Or complicated electronics. Things not made of flesh deal with acceleration far better than most people expect. Sharp impacts have insanely high, uneven G forces.
Quote:
Incidentally, while they may say that these guns are used to put packages in orbit cheaply they are not the only source of propulsion for those packages.
They could just get picked up at the peak of their orbit. Once you're in orbit, manoeuvring is easy if you have something as efficient as the metallic hydrogen rockets are supposed to be. If you're bothering to shoot things into space to begin with I can't imagine you'd want to bother having anything particularly complicated in the payload.
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
Right. I talked about that in
Right. I talked about that in a previous post. The problem with the idea of 'pick it up at apoapsis' is 'what happens if you miss?'. If you're not equipping the payloads with some form of secondary propulsion that is strong enough to put the payload into a permanent orbit (i.e. one that can sufficiently reduce the eccentricity of the orbit) then when someone misses a payload (and sooner or later it will happen) the payload will return to the surface with almost the same amount of energy it launched with (since there's no atmosphere to bleed off energy).
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
ringringlingling ringringlingling's picture
Can I see your calculations?
Just curious.
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
They're done on spreadsheets
They're done on spreadsheets but I could break them down into their formulas if you really want. Which ones did you want, though?
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
Oh you know, that math one.
Oh you know, that math one. To the left.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
P1 - "This is safe right?", P2 - "...Sure..."
I was thinking more the other way around - intercepting a highly-eccentric is hard, but hitting something in a circular orbit with a parabola is much simpler, so the tug would enter into the appropriate orbit and the cargo would be launched at the appropriat epoint to intercept. Missing is an issue, but if the orbital path of the cargo is roughly constant (which I think we can assume one way or the other) then a designated impact point can be selected and prepaired. Depending on accuracy it could even be set up to pass through a magnetic field to recover the launch energy, or at least be decelerated.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?