The description of the Hyper Linguist positive trait in the Core Rulebook (p.146) says a "character requires one-third the normal amount of time and experience to learn any language".
It also says "The character can also learn any human language in one day simply by constant immersive exposure to it."
How does the second instruction play with the first one and the regular character advancement rules?
Edits:
- There's another mention to this issue on another community, without a resolution.
- Hyper Linguist is also a bioware augmentation [Low] (Core Rulebook p. 301).
- Question 3 from an old topic asks the same thing, but lacks a definitive answer.
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Hyper Linguist trait and character advancement
Tue, 2016-09-06 19:09
#1
Hyper Linguist trait and character advancement
Tue, 2016-09-06 19:57
#2
*shrugs*
*shrugs*
I doesn't really come up for my games. I would ignore the text and make my own ruling.
I don't have problems with double, triple, etc learning speeds, so I would allow it. I wouldn't let it to learn languages in one day though. More likely the character will temporarily learn the language after one day of constant exposure, and it will last so long as the character continues to be well exposed. Unless the character spends points to learn the language (you pay full price like everything else), it would probably fade after a week.
If this came up more, I might devote more than 5 minutes of thought on it.
Wed, 2016-09-07 16:42
#3
For me, it means that you can
For me, it means that you can learn alien moonspeak in quick order, but for the various mother tongues of your own kind you're already in some levels exposed and just focusing on picking it up.
Though its only for alien moonspeak that uses vocalization for their moon speak. If their like the factor and just fart at you, then no amount of studying with the hyper linguist will say thats talking.
Wed, 2016-09-07 19:36
#4
I got the impression Hyper
I got the impression Hyper Linguist is partially designed to cope with alien languages (e.g. Factors' Fart).
Wed, 2016-09-07 19:57
#5
The problem I have with the
The problem I have with the trait is that one of its benefits is unclear and one sentence seems to contradict the other.
You don't "learn" skills in Eclipse Phase, you obtain a score number to test against when you need to perform that specific activity. Languages fall in this category: in order to be fluent in one you need a score of 50 on the skill.
Does that mean the trait gives you 50 points on a skill in one day?
Also, why does the trait's description also say you earn the benefit of spending just 1/3 of the cost and time to learn a language? Learning knowledge skills normally takes 1 week per point during character advancement.
Wed, 2016-09-07 20:09
#6
Well, I believe that like
Well, I believe that like with task actions, that "week" assumes technically the arrangement of 7 24 hour days, and specifically that you're only using a majority of your time in those days, like 16+ hours on it (maybe more like 20 because Basic Biomods). 1/3 is kind of awkward, but if you divide a week by 3, you get 56 hours per point, basically. And the "learn a human language in a day" is after what the game calls "complete immersion", which could be difficult to actually do for a whole day, you have to go out of your way to do it.
As for what that means, well, you don't roll every time your character speaks, do you? Hell, the game even says simultaneous translation is very good through the Mesh - so if you spend a day on immersion with Hyper Linguist, you probably don't even need the mesh to do a rough translation. But if you don't take the time to spend skill points on like, a legit technical knowledge of the language, you're not going to be able to write poetry in italian, or write very technical stuff because, y'know, not covered by your immersion therapy. But for day-to-day conversational stuff, you'd be fine. You don't usually roll for that anyway.
That said, some developer clarification on RAI would be nice, as it is an implant too, not just a trait which makes it slightly more complicated since nearly anyone can buy it.
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Wed, 2016-09-07 20:37
#7
In its cheapest form, its a
In its cheapest form, its a 250 cr augment. Its so cheap that if a starting character could convert all their cp to money, they could buy it well over 4000 times. Its too cheap to be game changing. I wouldn't allow it to anything game breaking even if the rules explicitly said that.
Wed, 2016-09-07 21:10
#8
UnitOmega wrote:well, you don
Of course not. :)
From the description of the skill:
Use the Language skill whenever you want to speak, understand, or read something in a language at which you are skilled. Most speaking and reading comprehension tests can be considered Simple Success Tests if your skill is over 50, unless the gamemaster rules the subject is sufficiently complex that a non-native speaker would have trouble understanding it.
Absolutely, the RAW for the trait (and the implant) don't make sense to me so it would be great to get some clarification from the developers on what they intended. I'm sure I won't be the last one to wonder about this.
Also, as DivineWrath mentioned, given the low-cost of the implant this is kind of broken from the mechanics perspective.
Wed, 2016-09-07 21:33
#9
I have an issue with traits
I have an issue with traits and augments that boost learning speed in general. The RAW give out RP slow enough that you're unlikely to get a significant skill boost regardless, and I also don't think I've ever seen skill learning time ever be an issue even when I did have RP to burn.
...that said? I think I might like doing a campaign with abundant RP where finding the training and time is more of an issue, if only for a change of pace.
Wed, 2016-09-07 22:38
#10
hperantunes wrote:I got the
Factor commication has been describe as far to removed from how transhuman can commicate, or concieve as commication that we cant really understanding it at all. I believe all translation is from the Factors, not from us.
Hyper Linguist wouldnt grant the morph the ability to make exotic chemicals, and then aerosol them.
Wed, 2016-09-07 22:41
#11
That's a fair point.
That's a fair point.
Thu, 2016-09-08 02:48
#12
Perhaps I should point out
Perhaps I should point out that not all rules are error free.
For instance, Skillware doesn't provide enough information on how to use it. Every attempt to use it is a house rule. Its not a cheap augment either. Skillware plus a few skillsofts can reach or even exceed 20,000 cr. So its not a minor augment.
Some questions for it: How quickly can you change skillsofts? What does it means by 100 point limit? Does activating a 40 rating skillsoft use 40 points or 40 - aptitude points? Does skillsofts replace existing skills, is 40 points added to aptitude, or is 40 points added to the skill?
My point is I don't think Hyper Linguist has a good answer and isn't unique in that regard. Unless one of the devs shows up and offers a fix, you'd be better off making a house rule.
Thu, 2016-09-08 03:00
#13
IMO, the rules in general for
IMO, the rules in general for skill advancement don't really make sense, so just going with what makes sense with various gear is best. I support the 50 CP worth of language skills in a day interpretation.
Thu, 2016-09-08 18:13
#14
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:I
With or without paying rez points?
Thu, 2016-09-08 18:34
#15
Their "free".
Their "free".
Thu, 2016-09-08 18:50
#16
GURPS
gurps has a side bar called something like "intensive training" that really goes in depth about how certain processes work, and I think this might be applicable.
The basic idea is, "easy come, easy go." Skills that you learn and train rapidly and extensively over a short period of time are often forgotten much more quickly than skills learned over time at a slower pace.
So while a full day of immersion might make you fluent, the minute you left you would forget everything you learned just as quickly. That means there you will always need a day or two getting acclimated to a new language, and that most likely you will not be literate in that language. Further, it would make sense that you only have basic fluency, and are unable to communicate effectively about complex subjects such as technology, philosophy or religion.
Thu, 2016-09-08 19:23
#17
hperantunes wrote:With or
Without, though I probably wouldn't note it on a character sheet unless it was taken as an ego trait, as the languages go away if the implant is lost.
I personally don't really use rez points, and I have somewhat accelerated skill timing. I don't really like having weeks and weeks of downtime breaking things up.
Thu, 2016-09-08 19:55
#18
Their all immortal though.
Their all immortal though. Skip over it, to a degree. Write up some news to help show the passage of time.
Thu, 2016-09-08 22:38
#19
I'll adopt a house rule that
I'll adopt a house rule that fits my needs, until we get some clarification on rules as intended from the game developers.
The description of the trait (and augmentation) changes to:
The character has an intuitive understanding of linguistic structures that facilitates learning new languages easily. The character requires one-third the normal amount of time and experience to learn any language. The character can also learn any human language in one day, < up to the character's COG + INT, > simply by constant immersive exposure to it. Additionally, the character receives a +10 modifier when attempting to interpret languages they don’t know.
The emphasis is on the part I've added.
This allows for characters focused on mental abilities to be cool, creates some distinction between the benefits that different types of characters get, allows for further upgrading the language if the player wishes so (by paying 1/3 of rez points and time) and leaves room for arguing whether non-human languages could be learned "almost for free" with this (I don't think so).
Thanks everyone for the ideas! :)
PS: Yes, an infomorph can get 80 in languages "almost for free" with this house rule. That's life. :)
Fri, 2016-09-09 01:02
#20
Well, I'm glad your problem
Well, I'm glad your problem has been resolved to your satisfaction.