Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Continuity - airlock and expelling air

17 posts / 0 new
Last post
GRAAK GRAAK's picture
Continuity - airlock and expelling air
Ok, i don't get this. Spoilers follow. I've read many times about the nonsense of air going out of the ship gradually that all we have saw in so many sci-fi movies. Hans has left an airlock opened to space the infection and all the ship's air. Shouldn't this happen in a instant? The adventure assumes about a hour to reach low air pressures. A pressurized habitat is like a balloon full of pressurized air. When you sting the balloon the air goes out with a blow, not a constant wind. The difference of pressure between the void and the hab is so big that it should happens in few seconds. Am I wrong? If so, could someone explain me the physics behind that please? Otherwise: any way to fix that part to make a more hard sci-fi realism? Thank you guys!
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Depends. Balloons go
Depends. Balloons go "pbbbbbbt" because there's a fair bit of pressure forcing the air out, caused by the tension in the balloon's skin. A rigid body like a hab has, at most, one atmosphere of pressure between inside and outside, and as the pressure drops so does the flow rate. The hab also has (presumably) a reasonably large internal volume to empty and lots of things to slow the movement of air. That said, hours seems like a long time.
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
the ballon ruptures violently
the ballon ruptures violently and completely in the span of seconds because of the elasticity of its material. Hab construction is incredibly more rigid. Thus the opening where atmo is escaping from dictates a max flow rate. Only so many atoms and molecules can fit through an opening even at perfect compression. Further laws of concentration gradient and the force of gravity will also place limits on the flow rate and the total amount that can flow. Te take a gorier example if you punctured your femoral artery, the contents of which are under much more extreme pressure than a habitat's atmo. untreated you will bleed to death in a few minutes and still some blood will remain inside you. Now increase the scale from a person to a cluster hab and minutes can go easily to hours depending on the size of the aperture. further hans likely kept the opening in the airlock deliberately small in order to generate maximum vortex strength to clear the dust.
GRAAK GRAAK's picture
Thank you both! Very helpful
Thank you both! Very helpful insights!
base3numeral base3numeral's picture
Depends on the air pressure and volume
It'll depend (primarily) on three factors: Size of the hole Volume of air Pressure of air The easiest hab I can calculate a volume for is an O'Neill cylinder, also, some habs and ships will (SHOULD) have main sections cut that are separated from one another. Clusters and LaFrance rigs come to mind. So, O'Neill cylinder, no separations, radius 500 meters, length 2000 meters, pressurized to 1 atmosphere, 1.5 E 9 cubic meters. If we assume someone left a door open (oops) that is one meter in diameter, and that the amount of air leaving will be directly proportional to the pressure of air remaining (it's not, should be less than that, but I'm not up on my fluid flows). From 1 atm, I read the expected velocity of air leaving is 380 m/s [on further review, this may not be accurate, but you get the idea], so max loss is 300 cubic meters of air per second. At that rate (which won't be maintained) an O'Neill cylinder will goto vacuum in 1389 hours, or eight weeks. A large vessel, with one main compartment that holds 1 E 6 cubic meters of 1 atm air and and an identical airlock will goto vacuum in about 56 minutes (it won't, this is still assuming the flow stays at max). The above ship at half an atmosphere, same problem, will take two hours (lower pressure means less initial velocity for the air escaping). What really matters is how long it takes before the air becomes too thin for biomorphs and / or movement. At around a quarter of the time to evacuate, air pressure will be three quarters the initial value. Unless someone starts turning up the oxygen (it should be higher in the half atmo situation to start with), biomorphs are going to start having a bad time. After three quarters of time to evacuate, pressure that was one atm will be the same as Everest's summit, after which most biomorphs will stop having a bad time. Oxygen reserve and low pressure acclimation will help stretch the operational time one has.
Strength in depth... The Fleet
SquireNed SquireNed's picture
Really, it would seem that
Really, it would seem that the main threat that one has from decompression occurs when you wind up with structural damage as the pressure shifts (or, occasionally, whatever opened you up to vacuum) tears a massive hole in the structure and compromises the integrity of your former home. You can take a decent amount of damage and not necessarily have something fit for human life, but which will be fine for a sufficiently augmented transhuman for several hours (at which point the reserve oxygen had better come on). Of course, if you're right next to the breach, you have a potentially grisly fate, especially if you're going at 380m/s and bump your head (though 380 m/s seems implausible for transhuman-sized debris, which would likely have more inertia, reducing the speed of travel to something more survivable by an armored transhuman, though maybe not a biomorph not intended for hardcore combat).
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Even if you're in something
Even if you're in something which is segmented and self-quarantining (like a Cluster hab, or any reasonable design for a ship which is bigger than a room) you then run into the ol' Dead Space problem of "boy howdy, I really need to get into/pass through this module which is currently exposed to hard vacuum and mostly depressurized". Now really any long-term citizen of a hab which could reasonably be exposed to the void should be wearing smart vac clothes and keep a light vac suit and spare O2 bottle next to the first aid kid and fire extinguisher in every module - but that's not a guarantee. Also, if you're in a micrograv situation that's a lot of force which may suddenly catch small objects and tussle them about. It'd be very thematic to Eclipse Phase to be performing maintenance or some kind of space autopsy and suddenly there's an +800 mile an hour wind storm in your module throwing your plasma torch or scalpel set around, even if for just a couple of seconds. At least actually spacing your entire body is unlikely unless it's a literal booby trap like outlined in X-Risks.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
base3numeral base3numeral's picture
Reading my own work
Reading my own comments, especially regarding the time to vacuum from half an atmosphere, now doesn't seem to make sense, as a hab would pass through the stage of half an atmosphere on it's way to vacuum. Sorry about that bit.
Strength in depth... The Fleet
R.O.S.S.-128 R.O.S.S.-128's picture
Size actually does matter in this case
It depends on the size of the hole relative to the size of the room. In fact this is true for balloons too: if you blow up a balloon without tying it off, and then unpinch the neck, it will deflate gradually. Still quickly, at a steadily declining rate (the pressure exerted by the balloon decreases as it deflates), but certainly not instantly. Similarly, if you're able to very carefully punch a hole in a balloon without rupturing it, the air will flow out at a rate that depends on the size of the hole (all other things equal of course). The instant popping is not because the air sees any opening at all and immediately goes "I'M FREEEEE", popping is the result of a cascading structural failure that tears the balloon wide open. If you used an explosive to blast away half the room, then yeah that section would pretty much depressurize instantly. If your airlock takes up an entire wall section, that'll probably do it pretty damn quick too. If it's about the size of a manhole though, and the room you're trying to depressurize is about the size of a garage, it'll actually take a noticeable amount of time. A couple seconds at least ("a couple" meant in the broadest possible sense, an accurate answer would involve calculus). A room the size of a church or warehouse would take longer than one the size of a garage of course, unless you imagined one of those multi-story parking complexes when I said "garage". Way at the other end, a hole made by a bullet or micrometeor will very slowly leak air out of the room, and people inside might hear a high pitched whistling sound if it happens to resonate at the right frequency. Unless a structural failure blows it wide open of course.
End of line.
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
We go into this in Panopticon
We go into this in Panopticon, but it's possible Continuity one-offs things for purposes of the scenario. The rules for blowing airlocks in Panopticon try to be realistic without being too detailed. Posters pointing out that's it all about the size of the airlock are correct. If you rapidly depressurize a really big space, you could get a blast of wind that does indeed blow unsecured objects/people into space. But blowing a wee airlock from 1 atmosphere of pressure into the 0 atmosphere pressure of space isn't nearly as dramatic. Paper (why would you have that? never mind...) could get blown out, but not a full grown person, especially if they're holding on to something.
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
jackgraham wrote:Paper (why
jackgraham wrote:
Paper (why would you have that? never mind...)
Maybe you're working on the "The Dunce" (see Firewall p. 96), on perhaps the dullest Firewall assignment you might ever get. Only biomorphs are allowed and with no advanced forms of entertainment. They're the backup plan in case something goes wrong with Firewall attempting to figure out basilisk hacks. Entertainment from at least 30 years before the fall is popular there. I had to give an answer to that! :) *quickly hides before getting slapped.
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
Can't hack a dead tree :P
Can't hack a dead tree :P
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Maybe not literal woodpulp
Maybe not literal woodpulp paper, but arranging organic molecules into sheets is probably something you could hack a maker to do, and like ORCA says, you can't hack a dead tree. Physical "eyes only" is about as secure as you can get short of running QE lines. I mean, unless you're fighting literal telepaths.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
dragoner dragoner's picture
1 standard atmosphere = 14.69
1 standard atmosphere = 14.69 psi It isn't that much, which also would be the limit on the velocity as the pressure equalizes.
¡No Pasarán!
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
A decent approximation of the
A decent approximation of the rate of decompression from a space habitat into vacuum is that the gas will escape at the speed of sound, which will change as the pressure drops. You can use the velocity of the gas and the area of the hole to approximate the gas escape. The easiest to use I've found is the one-one-ten-hundred rule. A 1 cm2 hole in a 1 m3 volume will reduce the air pressure tenfold in 100 minutes. This time scales up proportionately to the volume, and scales down proportionately to the size of the hole. It's a little inaccurate, but the easiest to use at the table (provided you have volume measurements for habs on hand). If you want to get serious, this is a good resource: http://www.geoffreylandis.com/higgins.html This is generally helpful, and what I generally use: http://www.geoffreylandis.com/vacuum.html
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
DivineWrath wrote:jackgraham
DivineWrath wrote:
jackgraham wrote:
Paper (why would you have that? never mind...)
Maybe you're working on the "The Dunce" (see Firewall p. 96), on perhaps the dullest Firewall assignment you might ever get. Only biomorphs are allowed and with no advanced forms of entertainment. They're the backup plan in case something goes wrong with Firewall attempting to figure out basilisk hacks. Entertainment from at least 30 years before the fall is popular there. I had to give an answer to that! :) *quickly hides before getting slapped.
Haha... yes, there are plenty of uses for paper. "Why would you have it in an airlock?" is probably a better question. But y'know, players always surprise me...
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Continuity was written before
Continuity was written before Panopticon, so the pressure differentials don't follow those rules. Also, most of the Kepler was buttoned up when the characters wake up, so as the characters move from the medical bay into the rest of the ship, opening doors as they go, the atmosphere will spike again. Otherwise, what's already been said is absolutely spot-on (possibly with minor tweaks for drama).