Bio, synth, or info? Pick your morph.

Sat, 2016-05-14 01:15

#2

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture

Hmm... Do I have to pick one?

Hmm... Do I have to pick one? Actually, I tried coming up with a crazy morph a while back for some character I was working on. Maybe I'll pick that. It might be fun. It was a mix of flexbot, swarmanoid, and portable server, as well as a few fabbers and nanohives. I had added upgrades, such as modular design, as needed. Aside from being crazy, it would also give me some of the best in the synthetic world, giving me a shape adjusting flexbot with on board server and fabrication abilities. I could fork to make use of the server as an infomorph or to split the flexbot into different modules. Having a swarmanoid in the mix means that I would have thousands of tiny robots I could send on missions or remote control. And with the nature of the monstrosity, I could have some other robots added into the mix or in hidden compartments and it would likely be among the least suspicious things about the crazy morph. I could add a habitat cyberbrain to the mix, but I would have to have a crazy big flexbot for that to be worth while. The rules for flexbots in Transhuman isn't very clear on what it'll do for me beyond making operating a massive flexbot possible. The plus side of doing crazy stuff with flexbot, an upgrade is merely 1 module attachment away. Just don't ask me to go anywhere near a TITAN monster, or anything that has TITAN and computer virus in the same sentence. If I get hacked while in that crazy morph, you might want to nuke me from orbit.

Sat, 2016-05-14 11:01

#3

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Biomorph, augged to hell and

Biomorph, augged to hell and back, or maybe synthmorph with a biological mask. Not sure what exactly, but Hazer or Aquanaut would be a good starting base.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Sat, 2016-05-14 23:38

#4

thebluespectre thebluespectre's picture

Biomorph.

Humans like to be humans. Barring undergoing some psychosurgical alterations, I would probably not take to being synthetic very well. I have a bad feeling about some of my nervous tics combining with a body that does not naturally regenerate tissue. Infomorph could be tolerable, since I would not have any body to damage, but I sure as hell would need to get used to it.

—

"Still and transfixed, the el/ ectric sheep are dreaming of your face..." -Talk Shows on Mute

Sun, 2016-05-15 05:21

#5

NimbleJack3 NimbleJack3's picture

I'm leery of personally

I'm leery of personally resleeving due to the potential dysphoria - my birth body has sentimental value - but if I had to hop over or suffer it'd definitely be a Sythmorph for me. All the fun of having a physical body to go places, and all the flexibility of having a digitally-based mind. Simulspaces help to fill those fleshy needs like eating a warm loaf of bread or feeling rain on my face. I shall ride eternal, shiny and chrome.

Sun, 2016-05-15 21:51

#6

kigmatzomat kigmatzomat's picture

Menton for me. Maybe with vac

Menton for me. Maybe with vac seal and respirocytes. (Space is an harsh place.) Circadian regulators would give 22 waking hours a day.

—

I'm not rules lawyer, I'm a rules engineer.

Thu, 2016-05-19 20:54

#7

wooaa

interesting. Seeing how a

interesting. Seeing how a good chunk of people here seem to be favorable to synths, I wonder why they are seen as lowbrow and crass in EP?

—

"Did I say that out loud? I apologize, master. While you are a meatbag, I suppose I should not call you such." - HK-47

Thu, 2016-05-19 22:58

#8

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Selection bias may have

Selection bias may have something to do with it. The kind of person interested in the Eclipse Phase RPG in 2016 is the kind of person who's probably going to be heavily into transhumanist themes (or, alternatively, who got into it because of EP, like me,) and that kind of person is also likely to be extremely dissatisfied with the way of human biology today.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Thu, 2016-05-19 23:40

#9

Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture

Biomorph, without question. I

Biomorph, without question. I get that you can have simulspaces that can imitate real life or have programs or whatever that can imitate human senses, but the knowledge that all of it is completely artificial (and the quality of which would rely on who designed the simulspaces or synth "senses") would always strike me as creepy. Also, I'd rather not live in a digital reality where hackers can potentially alter the laws of physics. As for the type of morph? Not sure, wouldn't be anything too far from a baseline human though.

—

"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address

Fri, 2016-05-20 02:58

#10

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

Synth or infomorph, I need

Synth or infomorph, I need the ability to quickly* implement psychosurgical changes and undo them as necessary. Not only do I want out of this meat body, but I want to carve up this ape brain. I would probably keep an old legacy fork behind in a hibernoid (I loath sleep!), something for the rest of the fork hive to watch over and reflect upon as we/I continue towards some sort of perfect exhuman (or posthuman?) end game. EDIT: *clarifying, cyberbrain/infomorph on portable server can implement psychosurgery so much quicker than a meat brain with its hour upload and download speeds.

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Fri, 2016-05-20 09:35

#11

wooaa

Forgot about hackers

Hmm. I seem to have forgotten in my excitement the dangers of hackers. Now that I think about it, the idea of someone with a future Ipad and a grudge fundamentally changing reality ( at least from my perspective) is down right creepy to say the least.

—

"Did I say that out loud? I apologize, master. While you are a meatbag, I suppose I should not call you such." - HK-47

Fri, 2016-05-20 14:01

#12

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture

wooaa wrote:interesting.

wooaa wrote:
interesting. Seeing how a good chunk of people here seem to be favorable to synths, I wonder why they are seen as lowbrow and crass in EP?

Part of it is destitute infuses using them at disproportionate rates, combined with the fact that basically the whole inner system is synthmorph-minorities. They're the poor people clanking masses. Part of it is probably because synthmorphs are less comfortable to use (mechanically worse penalties to sleeve into), and pretty alienating. I suspect that a lot of the people in this thread going for synths would be less comfortable with them as it becomes clear that they can't eat, and have an impaired sense of touch, among all the other little differences which make using metal a really jarring thing, even long term. There's a lot of neurochemical loops which can't be completed (food related dopamine release, etc), and while a cyberbrain can probably account for those to avoid the worst of that, you're basically being stabilized by your firmware. The ego is a function of the nervous system, and most of the nervous systems peripherals just got removed. That's one of the core reasons why synths are a little spooky for most people in EP. There's a lot going on in the background of a cyberbrain, and those were made and programmed by someone, or something. I'm sure there's a million cyberbrain firmware conspiracy theories, from corporate loyalty loops baked in, to TITAN interference. I have a personal theory that using different types of morphs alters your psychology, someone who has one fork in a Sylph for 6 months will find that fork very different from another one of their forks who's sleeved into a Fury at the same time. I imagine that people sleeved in synths lose interest in a lot of standard social things, and have more robotic psychology. Someone in a swarmanoid for a while probably doesn't think anything like a human. With all that said, I don't think there is enough published information on what each kind of morph is like for me to make an informed decision. A Hyperbright seems neat though, and is mostly the devil I know.

Fri, 2016-05-20 19:36

#13

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture

I like robots. I always

I like robots. I always thought they were a bit cool. If synthmorphs weren't a practical option in this game, I would be a bit sad. Dissatisfaction with human biology does increase the appeal of wanting to go full synthetic. You need to spend about a third of your life on sleep. About another third on work (8 hour a day work week). That leaves about 8 hours for everything else. Time needs to be spent getting ready in the morning. Time spend to cook food. Time spent on exercise. Time spent on shopping for food and other needs. Human bodies are high maintenance machines. It shouldn't be any surprise that many people fail to keep good care of their bodies. Many opt to eat unhealthy foods because it is quicker to eat at fast food restaurants. Many don't get enough exercise because their it takes time away from things like watching TV and such. It takes work and discipline to take care of your own body. Not everyone has that. Alternatively, one could adapt by changing their body to one that requires neither. Any problem your synthetic body has could by solved by paying a mechanic and making sure you own a quality morph that will last you a while. The fact that your cyberbrain can be hacked is a pain, but anyone's mesh inserts can be hacked. Getting control over a person's muse can be quite damning, and most people treat their mesh inserts as a sense organ and extended memory device. Few people in EP live their lives without some degree of AR, recording stuff on their inserts, or checking the mesh for information. People without access to the mesh are often considered mentally crippled and commonly called "zeros". So yes, synthmorphs are vulnerable in ways that biomorphs aren't but only zeros, or people who keep their mesh inserts off, are immune to hacking. I also find that biomorphs are more or less variations of the baseline human. So 4 limbs, a torso, a head, the usual array of sense organs, etc. Unless you go uplift or some kind of exotic podmorph (such as alien), you will be more or less human. You can get general improvements, smarter morphs, physically fit morphs, social morphs, combat morphs, flyer morphs, aquatic morphs, etc. I find that synthetic morphs offer more variety and stuff. To get the same abilities synthmorphs, a human morph will often need to get equipment and might not do the job as well. They might even blur the line between man and machine, so there is a point where you might as well go full synthmorph, or at least a synthmorph with a brainbox augment.

Fri, 2016-05-20 20:06

#14

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:I

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
I have a personal theory that using different types of morphs alters your psychology, someone who has one fork in a Sylph for 6 months will find that fork very different from another one of their forks who's sleeved into a Fury at the same time. I imagine that people sleeved in synths lose interest in a lot of standard social things, and have more robotic psychology. Someone in a swarmanoid for a while probably doesn't think anything like a human. With all that said, I don't think there is enough published information on what each kind of morph is like for me to make an informed decision. A Hyperbright seems neat though, and is mostly the devil I know.

I'm not sure if there is any information on that either. It would be interesting to read such material if it does exist. There seems to be only bits and pieces here and there. Transhuman does cover what it is like to be an AGI infomorph. How they are made, what their lives are like, etc. It even mentions that some nueral processes are duplicated even if scientists and software engineers don't know what they do because they have found the AGIs are more psychologically stable with them... and makes sleeving into biomorphs a lot easier. The section also mentions that AGIs talk a bit differently. Its almost as though they are more self aware of the different mental components and impulses that they are made up of. They are also taught to be more aware of them in their upbringing, so that might be a cultural thing.

Fri, 2016-05-20 20:42

#15

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

I should point out that

I should point out that between genefixing, medichines, and the widespread availability of healing tanks, the maintenance requirements for biomorphs would be much lower, [i]and[/i] you can get the "take it in to the shop for a tune-up" treatment that synths can get. I mean, it takes work to actually turn a normal transhuman biomorph obese, or even fat, to the point that fat people are [i]rare[/i] in Eclipse Phase, because it usually requires genetically tweaking your body to [i]allow[/i] you to get fat! With the right nanotech and smartfabric vacsuit, getting 'ready' for the day is very nearly as automated; showers are something you take because you miss them from Earth, not something you take for hygene. That's what cleaner nanites and a sanitized system biomod are for. (And conversely, it's made notable that a great many people sleeved in synths have taken to wearing clothes as fashion statements anyway.)

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Sat, 2016-05-21 12:20

#16

wooaa

What a synth loses

The main appeal of being a synth seems to be that it is much more different than being a human. But, it has been brought up that these losses could be quite unsettling. So, lets take a look at what a synth loses. No need to eat, sleep, shower, and other hygiene. It is argued that this is a time saver and a way to get rid of annoyances. But, it is something all transhumans did at some point in their life and its albescence may be felt. Food does cause all sorts of chemical effects on a bio, so a synth would be missing those. How important they are to continued mental health is a good question. Would being awake all the time and having been 16 months since your last meal drive you bonkers? No self healing. Humans, when you get right down to it, are rather well built for self repair. Minor cuts, abrasions, and impacts are all fixed within a few days or so. Much of modern medicine is usually about changing things to that the body is able to fix itself. Take or example setting a broken bone or using an antibiotic to slow bacterial growth enough so that the immune system can take over. I broke my arm a few years back but it is nearly as good as new. Meanwhile the Game Boy I have had for the last six years is worn down and in pretty bad shape. But, nanites might be able to handle minor synth repairs, and the fact that you are steel rather than flesh would make you more durable to begin with. As to how a morph effects your psychology, I would say that based on the comments in the morph recognition guide it seems like the type of morph you are in does change your personality to some extent. In the case of a bimorph it is based on hormones and neurochemistry, look at the bonobo and hyperbright example. It seems reasonable that the computer framework of a cyberbrain could have a similar effect.

—

"Did I say that out loud? I apologize, master. While you are a meatbag, I suppose I should not call you such." - HK-47

Sat, 2016-05-21 17:41

#17

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture

It's worth noting that synths

It's worth noting that synths still sleep, they just don't need to for physical reasons. Even most AGI "sleep" though it's basically just a long daydreaming session. (I think Transhuman talks about that anyway, I'm going off of memory here). Repairs shouldn't be a big problem in either case though, at least in most places, medichines are pretty cheap and are amazing. Easily the best 250 credits most morph-users will spend.

Sun, 2016-05-22 04:49

#18

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture

Actually they get bored. Plus

Actually they get bored. Plus many people they know sleep or otherwise have downtime, so they find things to do while people are not very active. They tend to act in 3 watches, work, then socialize/play, then down time for self maintenance, reflection, and preparing for the next day. They can work without getting tired, but they really don't want to work all the time. Transhuman, p. 134

Quote:
CYCLES “So … what do infomorphs do all day?” The first problem with this statement is that infomorphs don’t sleep, so the concept of “all day” isn’t intuitive in the same way that it is to corporeal types. Logically, AGIs get the idea of day/night cycles, and those who’ve lived in bodies that need sleep understand even better. For both types of infomorphs, however, the hours of the day are shaped not by a biological sleep/wake cycle, but by the ebb and flow of attention. In short, infomorphs don’t get tired. They do get bored, and this shapes their habits.

Sun, 2016-05-22 13:39

#19

Lazarus

DivineWrath wrote

DivineWrath wrote:
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
I have a personal theory that using different types of morphs alters your psychology, someone who has one fork in a Sylph for 6 months will find that fork very different from another one of their forks who's sleeved into a Fury at the same time. I imagine that people sleeved in synths lose interest in a lot of standard social things, and have more robotic psychology. Someone in a swarmanoid for a while probably doesn't think anything like a human. With all that said, I don't think there is enough published information on what each kind of morph is like for me to make an informed decision. A Hyperbright seems neat though, and is mostly the devil I know.
I'm not sure if there is any information on that either. It would be interesting to read such material if it does exist. There seems to be only bits and pieces here and there. . .

Furies are combat morphs. These transgenic human upgrades feature genetics tailored for endurance, strength, and reflexes, as well as behavioral modifications for aggressiveness and cunning. To offset tendencies for unruliness and macho behavior patterns, furies feature gene sequences promoting pack mentalities and cooperation, and they tend to be biologically female.([abbr=Eclipse Phase Main Rulebook]EP[/abbr] p. 140)[hr]Delta-V: Something about carrying a crew around inside me really triggers my mothering instincts. Psychscaper: That’s intentional. It’s a feature added to many vehicle cyberbrains; the urge to protect helps avoid situations where you forget about passengers entirely, to their detriment.([abbr=Morph Recognition Guide]MRG[/abbr] p. 58)[hr] These are just two examples I could think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others. So while there are no rules concerning this, yes, there there is information to support this.

—

My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.

Sun, 2016-05-22 23:32

#20

Dilf_Pickle Dilf_Pickle's picture

Some interesting points

I am quite enjoying this discussion. As far as synthmorphs and infomorphs lacking access to deeply-rooted neurochemical processes, I would point out that there are hyper-realistic simulspaces in existence, such as the one on iZulu (Rimward p.80) that would ostensibly have the horsepower to replicate the sensation of food consumption in AR or VR. I've even entertained the idea of an AR chef character concept before. After all, there is clearly an ability to somewhat-convincingly replicate visual, auditory and tactile qualia in software. I don't see what would prevent the same from applying to smell, taste, proprioception, kinesthesia, balance, etc... I would also debate the idea that infomorphs don't sleep, as sleep is as much mental as it is physical. InfoLIFE I could understand, since they're coming at sentience from the other end of the neural buffet. As for the thread's original question: assuming I were a Firewall agent, I'd split my time between a Splicer (easy cheap discreet resleeving anywhere in the system) with medichines and neurachem I, and a Guard with a brainbox.

Tue, 2016-05-24 08:43

#21

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture

Synth Life!

Synths explicitly don't need to sleep - it's stated in the "Lack of Biological Funtions" advantage implicit to the morphy type. They also don't have any drawbacks to thier sense of touch unless they specifically dial down thier pain receptors. From an in-game point of view - The mental requirements for sleep are due to the brain using procesess which are incompatible with those used when concious, but that incompatability need not apply in a simulation. Given the choice, I would go for "Hamilton Cylinder" or other HabMind. I don't mean build one into a morph, I mean straight up "I want to be a habitat". If I really had to go for a "Morph" I would go for a Courier, ideally modified with Medichines, Fractal Digits, Multitasking, Shape Adjusting and Wrist Mounted tools (my standard package).

thebluespectre wrote:
Humans like to be humans.

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
I suspect that a lot of the people in this thread going for synths would be less comfortable with them as it becomes clear that they can't eat, and have an impaired sense of touch, among all the other little differences which make using metal a really jarring thing, even long term. There's a lot of neurochemical loops which can't be completed (food related dopamine release, etc), and while a cyberbrain can probably account for those to avoid the worst of that, you're basically being stabilized by your firmware.

I want to be a Synth explicitly to get away from all that junk. I don't want my mood to be regulated by what I've eaten, or how long it's been since I slept, or the air quality or the temperature or whatever. I don't want to be stuck with two arms and two legs, or only being able to look in one direction and think about one thing at once. I'm tired of not being able to do the things I want to do because of my own physical/mental limitations. And to be absolutely clear, I don't mean stuff like "run faster" or "be stronger". I mean "jump out of a plane without a parachute".

—

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Tue, 2016-05-24 10:22

#22

Dilf_Pickle Dilf_Pickle's picture

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:it's

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
it's stated in the "Lack of Biological Funtions" advantage implicit to the morphy type

Hence "debate".

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
The mental requirements for sleep are due to the brain using procesess which are incompatible with those used when concious, but that incompatability need not apply in a simulation.

My objection to that position would be that manipulating memory is still quite hard ([i]EP p.232 "Memory Editing"[/i]), and that memory handling is one of the, if not singularly the, main neurological function(s) of sleep. I would posit that sleep modding is still in the voodoo-dance-and-chicken-bones stage of EP tech, but I suppose it's in hand-waveable territory.

Tue, 2016-05-24 13:09

#23

Panoptic

I would love a version of the

I would love a version of the Crasher with the bugs worked out. I'll take reliable over bleeding edge. A shiny feature isn't much good if it causes complications in crisis situations.

—

On 'IC Talk': Seyit Karga, Ultimate [url=http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46317#comment-46317]Character Profile[/url]

Wed, 2016-05-25 21:17

#24

MAD Crab

Dilf_Pickle wrote

Dilf_Pickle wrote:
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
it's stated in the "Lack of Biological Funtions" advantage implicit to the morphy type
Hence "debate".
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
The mental requirements for sleep are due to the brain using procesess which are incompatible with those used when concious, but that incompatability need not apply in a simulation.
My objection to that position would be that manipulating memory is still quite hard ([i]EP p.232 "Memory Editing"[/i]), and that memory handling is one of the, if not singularly the, main neurological function(s) of sleep. I would posit that sleep modding is still in the voodoo-dance-and-chicken-bones stage of EP tech, but I suppose it's in hand-waveable territory.

Seems like you could cover both by saying that synths don't need to sleep per se - they don't have to run the hormonal sims that cover sleep regulation - but they're not going to be learning much from their day if they don't. No sleep, no (or little) long term memory integration. You get to choose whether you'd like to work a long shift or remember your short shift in a week. On the plus side, I guess you can just go back and manually review it all because of the XP stuff.

—

Wed, 2016-05-25 22:32

#25

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture

I'll opt for the best of both

I'll opt for the best of both worlds. To avoid sleep and not suffer drawbacks for doing so. It kinda takes away from the transhuman feel if you deny too many opportunities for transhumans to get ahead or improve upon evolution. Besides, logically, those biomorphs who use basic biomods and/or circadian regulation to avoid sleep, would suffer the same problems as synthmorphs and infomorphs who don't sleep.

Thu, 2016-05-26 12:45

#26

Dilf_Pickle Dilf_Pickle's picture

Sleep and memory

MAD Crab wrote:
Seems like you could cover both by saying that synths don't need to sleep per se - they don't have to run the hormonal sims that cover sleep regulation - but they're not going to be learning much from their day if they don't.

That was my line of thinking as well.

DivineWrath wrote:
I'll opt for the best of both worlds. To avoid sleep and not suffer drawbacks for doing so. It kinda takes away from the transhuman feel if you deny too many opportunities for transhumans to get ahead or improve upon evolution. Besides, logically, those biomorphs who use basic biomods and/or circadian regulation to avoid sleep, would suffer the same problems as synthmorphs and infomorphs who don't sleep.

Biomorphs don't avoid sleep, they just need less of it. Cut out light sleep and you're down to 3-4 hours. There's your Basic Biomods. Merge deep sleep and REM sleep, and you're down to 2 hours. There's your Circadian Regulation (whence "dreaming the whole time you sleep"). I can understand the sentiment of wanting to inhabit a transhuman world where it's easier to be bigger faster stronger smarter prettier taller. But, as I imagine it at least, memory is still something of a mysterious black box in EP. One could argue that digital memory protocols ([i]à-la[/i] mnemonic aug) preclude the need for mammalian memory heuristics, but that raises other questions. For instance, many [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_of_humor]theories of humour[/url] rely on surprise arising from tricking the mind's memory access functions. If synth and info memories are perfect, does that mean that synths and infos experience humour in fundamentally different ways? Or, since they never 'defrag their hard drive', do they even experience humour at all? Here we start to get into YMMV and conjecture-land. But it's fun to think about. One more reason to love Eclipse Phase. PS. And just to un-hijack the thread, I'm also interested in infomorphs. I'd lean toward a Sage or an Elite.

Thu, 2016-05-26 12:47

#27

Dilf_Pickle Dilf_Pickle's picture

Panoptic wrote:I would love a

Panoptic wrote:
I would love a version of the Crasher with the bugs worked out. I'll take reliable over bleeding edge. A shiny feature isn't much good if it causes complications in crisis situations.

More power to you, but, to be honest, I don't really get the appeal of a Crasher. Especially with the number of lemons out there.

Thu, 2016-05-26 17:12

#28

SquireNed

Why settle for one?

Barring the fact that I'm into the whole "me, myself, and I" thing, there's a few limitations to any answer I give, as I'd personally wind up using whatever morph I had access to for a given fork, but I have to say that the Remade is probably my first choice. Sure, it's not the most attractive morph, but being a human 2.0 is certainly appealing. Of course, I also have nothing against inorganic components, though if we're talking about 10 AF the prospect of having a less TITAN-susceptible morph is attractive. The whole flesh versus machine thing is somewhat moot if you're willing to replace the squishy bits that benefit from steel and just keep the bits that you really care about, like an augmented but largely organic brain and enough stuff to keep that working while enjoying massive skeletal and muscular augmentations.

Fri, 2016-05-27 10:34

#29

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture

Sleepwalking through life...

Dilf_Pickle wrote:
My objection to that position would be that manipulating memory is still quite hard ([i]EP p.232 "Memory Editing"[/i]), and that memory handling is one of the, if not singularly the, main neurological function(s) of sleep.

I really don't think that applies here, because there's no targeted manipulation or comprehension going on. If it's possible for infomorphs/synths to sleep (which no-one seems to be arguing against) then the processes for memory consolidation are already there - the only change is when they're performed. Functionally speaking the ego is acting as through it were asleep and awake at the same time, or is sleeping every Nth microsecond.

—

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Fri, 2016-05-27 11:09

#30

Dilf_Pickle Dilf_Pickle's picture

SquireNed wrote:The whole

SquireNed wrote:
The whole flesh versus machine thing is somewhat moot if you're willing to replace the squishy bits that benefit from steel and just keep the bits that you really care about, like an augmented but largely organic brain and enough stuff to keep that working while enjoying massive skeletal and muscular augmentations.

This is where we start to run into the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus]Ship of Theseus[/url] paradox. Is a synth with a brainbox organic enough for an async to sleeve in without morph fever? Or does the whole nervous system have to be organic? If so, can asyncs not safely sleeve into a bio with reflex boosters then?

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
Dilf_Pickle wrote:
My objection to that position would be that manipulating memory is still quite hard (EP p.232 "Memory Editing"), and that memory handling is one of the, if not singularly the, main neurological function(s) of sleep.
I really don't think that applies here, because there's no targeted manipulation or comprehension going on. If it's possible for infomorphs/synths to sleep (which no-one seems to be arguing against) then the processes for memory consolidation are already there - the only change is when they're performed. Functionally speaking the ego is acting as through it were asleep and awake at the same time, or is sleeping every Nth microsecond.

Yeah, I suppose one could slice up 'info-sleep' during idle times. But each slice would have to be a whole dream, otherwise we [i]do[/i] have to start manipulating things. A few whole seconds or somesuch.

Fri, 2016-05-27 17:39

#31

SquireNed

Dilf_Pickle wrote:This is

Dilf_Pickle wrote:
This is where we start to run into the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus]Ship of Theseus[/url] paradox. Is a synth with a brainbox organic enough for an async to sleeve in without morph fever? Or does the whole nervous system have to be organic? If so, can asyncs not safely sleeve into a bio with reflex boosters then?

Mind you, I have nothing against synths in general; they're just not my preference in terms of gameplay (I rarely find myself in situations where a Remade won't do fine), or in terms of flavor (I like the familiarity of flesh, and while I'm willing to replace most of that with steel, I like to keep biology as a line of defense against TITAN stuff).

Fri, 2016-05-27 17:46

#32

Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:I

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
I should point out that between genefixing, medichines, and the widespread availability of healing tanks, the maintenance requirements for biomorphs would be much lower, [i]and[/i] you can get the "take it in to the shop for a tune-up" treatment that synths can get. I mean, it takes work to actually turn a normal transhuman biomorph obese, or even fat, to the point that fat people are [i]rare[/i] in Eclipse Phase, because it usually requires genetically tweaking your body to [i]allow[/i] you to get fat! With the right nanotech and smartfabric vacsuit, getting 'ready' for the day is very nearly as automated; showers are something you take because you miss them from Earth, not something you take for hygene. That's what cleaner nanites and a sanitized system biomod are for. (And conversely, it's made notable that a great many people sleeved in synths have taken to wearing clothes as fashion statements anyway.)

Not sure about you, but I'll never substitute a good hot shower over something as dull and/or creepy as nanites crawling all over my skin and cleaning it. I'd think most people still take showers for that reason too, not just "because we did it on Earth".

—

"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address

Sat, 2016-05-28 16:57

#33

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture

Arguments about sleep and its

Arguments about sleep and its importance get further murkier when you take into account that EP tech can be used to accelerate the rate you can learn at (see psychosurgery), add/delete memories (see psychosurgery), use fork merging to gain skills that another fork learned (see the transhuman book), or even fuse 2 very different egos and hope the resulting mess works (see the transhuman book). In many ways, you need don't need sleep to learn and commit things to long term memories. Some of it is far from a perfect science, but they are not topics that this game avoids simply because life on Earth has been doing it for millions if not billions of years.

Sun, 2016-05-29 19:51

#34

Panoptic

Dilf_Pickle wrote:More power

Dilf_Pickle wrote:
More power to you, but, to be honest, I don't really get the appeal of a Crasher. Especially with the number of lemons out there.

As I said, one with the bugs worked out. I like the idea of a resilient biomorph suitable for all sorts of environments, but which isn't such a radically different morphology that I wouldn't enjoy using it.

—

On 'IC Talk': Seyit Karga, Ultimate [url=http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46317#comment-46317]Character Profile[/url]

Sun, 2016-06-05 11:24

#35

Dilf_Pickle Dilf_Pickle's picture

Panoptic wrote:Dilf_Pickle

Panoptic wrote:
Dilf_Pickle wrote:
More power to you, but, to be honest, I don't really get the appeal of a Crasher. Especially with the number of lemons out there.
As I said, one with the bugs worked out. I like the idea of a resilient biomorph suitable for all sorts of environments, but which isn't such a radically different morphology that I wouldn't enjoy using it.

I guess that makes sense on the bio side. My preference would be for a Guard with a brainbox though. Slightly higher cost, but does everything the Crasher does, better.

Mon, 2016-06-06 12:15

#36

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture

Higher than the moon...

Dilf_Pickle wrote:
Yeah, I suppose one could slice up 'info-sleep' during idle times. But each slice would have to be a whole dream, otherwise we [i]do[/i] have to start manipulating things. A few whole seconds or somesuch.

It depends on how dreaming is connected to the process, which afaik is uncertain. If you're doing it fast/often enough then there shouldn't be enough memory present that a dream is even necessary. Another possibility is that the offloading of the process and the high speed makes the Ego interpret it as an ongoing/everpresent experience – there is always a part of the ego that is dreaming in the background, in the same way we always hear things but don't pay attention to them.

DivineWrath wrote:
Arguments about sleep and its importance get further murkier when you take into account that EP tech can be used to accelerate the rate you can learn at (see psychosurgery), add/delete memories (see psychosurgery), use fork merging to gain skills that another fork learned (see the transhuman book), or even fuse 2 very different egos and hope the resulting mess works (see the transhuman book). In many ways, you need don't need sleep to learn and commit things to long term memories. Some of it is far from a perfect science, but they are not topics that this game avoids simply because life on Earth has been doing it for millions if not billions of years.

This. Sleeping and memory retention is an incredibly complex subject, and we simply don't know enough about how it works to make concrete statements.

—

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Mon, 2016-06-06 13:32

#37

Dilf_Pickle Dilf_Pickle's picture

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:Dilf

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
Dilf_Pickle wrote:
Yeah, I suppose one could slice up 'info-sleep' during idle times. But each slice would have to be a whole dream, otherwise we [i]do[/i] have to start manipulating things. A few whole seconds or somesuch.
It depends on how dreaming is connected to the process, which afaik is uncertain. If you're doing it fast/often enough then there shouldn't be enough memory present that a dream is even necessary. Another possibility is that the offloading of the process and the high speed makes the Ego interpret it as an ongoing/everpresent experience – there is always a part of the ego that is dreaming in the background, in the same way we always hear things but don't pay attention to them.

I hadn't thought of that possibility; multi-threading dreams behind the conscious state (possibly using a load-leveling algorithm), and buffering the consciousness overlap for the next dream thread kick-the-can style.

Sat, 2016-06-11 20:58

#38

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:This.

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
This. Sleeping and memory retention is an incredibly complex subject, and we simply don't know enough about how it works to make concrete statements.

My stance is, why not allow Transhumans to avoid sleep? Isn't sleep something that should be solvable at some point? This is a RPG with a really advanced setting. This is a game where humanity has solved death, allow you to switch bodies (or go full digital), and reprogram your mind. Why should sleep be an exception?

Sun, 2016-06-12 12:31

#39

Dilf_Pickle Dilf_Pickle's picture

DivineWrath wrote:Isn't sleep

DivineWrath wrote:
Isn't sleep something that should be solvable at some point?

Sleep and memory are inexorably linked. If one isn't solved yet (memory editing is still hard in AF10), neither is the other. But headway has been made, as per Basic Biomods and Circadian Regulation.

Sun, 2016-06-12 18:19

#40

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture

I was poking around the books

I was poking around the books trying to find what they actually said about sleep. EP Core, p. 143

Quote:
Lack of Biological Functions. Synthmorphs need not be bothered with trivialities like breathing, eating, defecating, aging, sleeping, or any similar minor but crucial aspects of biological life.

So not needing to sleep is cannon. It might not cover how they do it, but its mentioned in the very first book.

Sun, 2016-06-12 23:26

#41

SquireNed

Keep in mind that synthmorph

Keep in mind that synthmorph is different from biomorph. Most infolife and synthmorphs can presumably function near 24-hours a day if not indefinitely without interruption. Non-pod biomorphs are limited to storing memory when their gray matter is in a sort of down-time state, though there are ways to speed up the process or delay the need for sleep.

Mon, 2016-06-13 02:08

#42

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture

Huh? I'm pretty sure we weren

Huh? I'm pretty sure we weren't arguing biomorphs. I think we all agreed earlier that there were limits on biomorphs and sleep reduction. We were arguing whether or not synthetics like synthmorphs and infomorphs could avoid sleep.

Mon, 2016-06-27 03:57

#43

Endless Rain Endless Rain's picture

I don't think I'd even have a

I don't think I'd even [I]have[/I] a permanent morph in the first place. I'd typically stay as an infomorph whenever I'm at home or somewhere else where I don't need a body, but I'd just borrow or rent a morph (Anything but a biomorph. Yes, even vehicles and robots.) to resleeve into or teleoperate whenever I need to use a morph for something.

—

The Titanians are the real power within the Autonomist Alliance. The Anarchists only survive because we protect them from the Planetary Consortium and the Jovians.

Mon, 2016-07-04 20:51

#44

base3numeral base3numeral's picture

Depends

Flexbot (yeoman and/or wizard). Flexibility, doesn't take up too much space, all the synth advantages with a stack that's a bit harder to pop (though I guess the size makes it such that someone could just toss you in a pillowcase). Tack on a mobility system that'll function in a vacuum and I'm set.

—

Strength in depth... The Fleet

Mon, 2016-07-04 22:45

#45

Laskeutua

Synth

Definitely a synth, maybe a steel or a modified Slitheroid to look Naga-esc. Probably a female (or at least feminine) sleeve. Undecided between something that'd look like a doll or more like how the steels are pictured in the Sunward book. Definitely with the emotive trait.

—

[url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-exhuman-clade]Homebrew Exhuman Clade - The Stewards[/url] [url=http://eclipsephase.com/homebrew-titan-traps]Homebrew TITAN Traps[/url]

Tue, 2016-07-05 09:50

#46

BalazarLightson BalazarLightson's picture

Bio

I'd take anything decent with Circadian Regulation and Hibernation. I'd like to rediscover my youth. I think my record was 5 days without sleep at University, during a particularly nasty bout of study stress induced insomnia while also taking Cold & Flu medication. I could do that with a Synth or Info, but at heart I guess I'm addicted to so many of the senses I have now that I'd miss them too much. For near two months I survived with 1-2 hours sleep on average during another. I'd like to be able to get similar amounts of reading done as back then, but with a clearer head.

Tue, 2016-07-05 10:23

#47

icefyer

Do pods count as biomorphs?

Do pods count as biomorphs? If so, a scurrier would probably be my morph of choice, whether normal or as a bootleg Critter version. Fluffy, adorable, and I don't lose the use of my hands. If anything I gain an extra pair. Though I'd also take a Synth with the false skin thing to fake it, so it works either way.

Wed, 2016-07-06 02:55

#48

Seekerofshadowlight Seekerofshadowlight's picture

I would have to go biomorph.

I would have to go biomorph. While something like a synth might be fun to try, I am an hedonist though and though and I have no desire to give up the pleasures of the flesh. As to what type, I am unsure, I don't need anything odd like some of the pods. Likeily something like a bouncer, Olympian or hazer with a lot of mods.

Fri, 2016-07-08 17:49

#49

Wikrin

Synth!

Preferably some humanoid synth, sub-five-foot, with a synth skin over the head and torso. Leave the limbs bare metal, maybe with pads on the hands. Feet, I'd go with pseudo boots, built into the feet. Maybe set the hands and feet to be modular, have different sets for different occasions? Hm. Alternatively, go pod. Keep the full metal limbs, but go bio core. Hm. Would want to design the look down to the smallest detail. Think synth simplifies that. :)

Sat, 2016-07-16 05:48

#50

Scottbert

Thinking about it, I can get

Thinking about it, I can get almost any experience needed -- 'pleasures of the flesh', delicious food, a hot shower, through simulspace. So what does my physical morph matter for? Anything I need to do in physical space. When everything can be done virtually, then the only reason I'd need to be physical is if my friends are. (Sure, I can probably hang around through AR as an Infomorph, but I might miss out on some sensations.) If my friends are mostly biomorphs, then I'd like to be a biomorph too. The inconveniences of flesh can be somewhat mediated by the sanitized metabolism and circadian regulation mods. Alternatively, if not eating and not sleeping doesn't cause too much of a disconnect with my friends' experiences, a masked synth might suffice. (Specific morph I'm less picky about. An exalt or menton would be nice, but a splicer or pod is fine too. Then again, perhaps sleeving a Sylph would help with my social skills...) If my friends are mostly in synthmorphs, then a synthmorph is fine, probably masked but perhaps without if most of them are also. (A savant if I can get one, sure, but a synth is fine too. Not a case if I can help it, though.) If my friends are all infomorphs, then a body just holds me back. If my friends are a mix or I need to go physical for other reasons, a masked synth or cyberbrained pod might strike a nice balance of letting me go physical or info as needed. Of course, if I have reason to fear hackers targeting me, I might want to stay bio. Conversely, if I'm a firewall agent or gatecrasher afraid of exsurgent encounters, I'd go synth (I can go into autistic mode to avoid hacks, and I don't want crazy psychic stuff or weird diseases getting into me)