I can prove, empirically, that climate change does not exist, with one simple math problem.
x+y/y:100/z
x = total estimated mass of the atmosphere
y = total estimated mass of carbon fuels consumed to date
z = percentage of the atmosphere composed of carbon emissions by composition
If you have done your math correctly, you will see that carbon emissions account for merely the tiniest fraction of a percent of our atmospheres total composition by mass, and would therefore conclude that carbon emissions have absolutely no effect on a global scale.
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So far, no one has made any attempt to refute this
Sun, 2016-03-13 19:44
#1
So far, no one has made any attempt to refute this
Sun, 2016-03-13 19:49
#2
I thought this was relevant
given that climate change was considered one of the precipitated factors given for the fall. You all seem like a bunch of smart guys here at Post Human studios, so I was wondering what your take on this was.
Mon, 2016-03-14 09:44
#3
I am not a climate change
I am not a climate change sceptic and I am not really into science behind the climate change debate. But what comes to my mind is flow-equilibrium. Tiny changes in the composition of the atmosphere can alter the energy balance and therefore have huge consequences.
If you want to see the greenhouse effect in hard core action, look at Venus. As far as I know it is assumed that Venus once may well have had liquid water on it's surface, but then the green house effect kicked in...
Mon, 2016-03-14 17:06
#4
It's complicated
Equilibrium systems can be sensitive to very small changes that add up over time, especially if they don't have a strong negative feedback mechanism. For example, the 2 degrees in 100 years often quoted by alarmists is just .02 degrees per year. Teeny tiny effect, adding up over time. Now, thermal systems have built-in negative feedback and Earth has a lot of extra dampening systems (for example CO2 promotes plant growth which pulls CO2 out of the air and stores it in wood).
But then the sun also throws a metric shitton of energy at us (not to be confused with the imperial fuckton, which is about 62.8% larger), so a teeny tiny increase in retention rate could theoretically be a lot of heat, maybe enough to push against that negative feedback far enough to be uncomfortable.
And so you get glacially slow, but noticeable on century-plus timescales, heating out of a miniscule change in atmo comp.
Now, one thing I'd like to lay to rest is the common alarmist claim that skepticism amounts to denial and that any skeptic must be crazy or malicious: neither of those are true, and the stubborness of skepticism in this case is partially the alarmists' fault. Back in the early 00's we had far less data and some people were jumping to conclusions on what turned out to be some really bad extrapolation. Skepticism was quite justified at that time, but likely would have been overcome with better data had the alarmists not declared the sky to be falling and hadn't invoked the mantra of Us vs Them.
Note to future scientists: alarmism doesn't create action, it creates backlash and gridlock that lasts long after a reasonable argument would have been settled.
Now we have much more data though and it is seeming pretty likely that something is causing us to take on more heat than we should. I expect that just blaming CO2 is a vast oversimplification, but I can see it being a contributing factor and so at least tackling that should help a little.
The main thing I take issue with now is many of the proposed solutions. Many of them have been frankly draconian, and kneejerk reactions that ignore the time scales we're working with. People panicked and wanted to remove the mountain with a nuke when we had at least 100 years to dig a tunnel. We can do a lot in 100 years, especially with exponentially accelerating technology. This is a problem that we can solve technologically without having to resort to drastic economic or political sacrifices.
That's another thing that really soured the discourse early on: a lot of extreme fringe groups tried to latch on to global warming and ride it into the mainstream, which made it really hard for people to accept it with all the crazies hanging on to its coattails.
The malthusians leapt on it and said "well killing 70% of the population would solve global warming right away, we should do that!"
The communists said, "Economic activity causes emissions, wealth causes economic activity, communism has a stellar track record of destroying wealth. We should establish world communism!"
The primitivists said, "See? We need to start living lile cavemen NOW, it's for the planet!"
Unsurprisingly, with pretty much every fringe group and their tinfoil hat trying to use global warming alarmism to push agendas that were only tangentially related at best, it was pretty easy for normal people to be really cynical about it.
At this point, the warming effect is more likely to be real than not. But it is still important not to panic. Panic short-circuits our brains and prevents us from thinking rationally. We can solve this with technology, and we can do so while preserving our way of life. If we're a little too slow on it we might have to turn up the AC for a few years, but I'm confident we'll be able to get it under control. And by then we'll probably have the tech to just set the global thermostat wherever we want it, which will be a handy trick on Mars.
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Tue, 2016-03-15 09:46
#5
This equation ignores so many
This equation ignores so many laws of the thermal dynamics... first, CO2 is not the sole culprit. Further you are assuming CO2 is an energy producer when the majority of thermal energy on the planet comes from the sun and the 2nd largest perspective being radioactivity within the earth followed closely by natural vulcanism. Next there is the the efficiancy of energy exchange between atoms. Co2 is more efficient at receiving energy than N2 or O2
Thu, 2016-03-17 01:20
#6
This is basically a good
This is basically a good example of over-reductionism, and nothing more.
Sun, 2016-03-20 04:29
#7
You're all a bunch of Eggheads
You know what my personal pet theory on global warming is? I think its all psychological. I think we bury our (completely rational) fear of global thermo-nuclear war over diminishing fossil fuel deposits and transfer our feelings onto a completely made up phenomenon that we feel confident that we can overcome. Its a huge spin factory designed to keep our head in the sands about whats going on in the world, we rationalize our ignorance by exaggerating our competence and completely ignoring the real issues.
Its why science has pretty much hit a dead end, because of the psuedo mystic faith we place in it and our lack of understanding over the most mundane aspects of our daily lives. Aside from a few mavericks, we are basically putting all our money on a dead horse.
Technology is not a replacement for social progress.
Sun, 2016-03-20 04:36
#8
Further
I imagine less CO2 is contained in all the fossil fuel burned to date than is consumed by fluctuations in the amount of plankton in the ocean over a 10 year cycle.
Sun, 2016-03-20 04:45
#9
That Being Said
I'd love to cash in on climate change.
Aside from diverting money that would probably be better spent on alternative energy, climate change is a net positive for science. All that money has gotta go somewhere, right?
Sun, 2016-03-20 10:51
#10
It does not follow
How does investment in alternative energy direct money away from alternative energy?
Nuclear power is our ace in the hole against climate change, hands down. An aggressive generation-four nuclear rollout could within two decades leave us joking about climate change the same way we joke about Y2K. If we had started said rollout 20 years ago we wouldn't even be having this conversation, if we had started in 2008 we'd be just about 10 years from completion, but hindsight is 20/20 and 20 years is probably the shortest time we can manage for any comprehensive solution, so let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. We have more than enough nuclear fuel to last until we commercialize fusion and/or work out the storage problem with solar, so the "well ten thousand years is technically not renewable" argument is moot. It doesn't have to last forever, it just has to last long enough.
We've even solved the waste problem on paper, it's just a matter of building up the infrastructure to implement the solution. It turns out that in sufficiently advanced reactor designs, like we are capable of building now, almost all of the most dangerous, longest-lasting waste is fissionable. Meaning we can just keep tossing it back in the reactor until it comes out as something much safer that has much shorter storage time. This has the nice side-bonus of vastly increasing the effective lifetime of our fuel reserves, because we can burn the same fuel two or three times before it's fully depleted.
The only real problem with nuclear is that people are irrationally afraid of it. People like to say that building reactors is too expensive, but the largest expense is fighting off lawsuits from NIMBYs. It's only expensive because we *make* it expensive. Nuclear power is the most reliable, most efficient, densest form of power generation we have and it just so happens to be emission-free.
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Sun, 2016-03-20 12:09
#11
You also need to learn how to
You also need to learn how to use an edit button ring.
Sun, 2016-03-20 18:13
#12
There's actually a pretty
There's actually a pretty good argument to make against nuclear right now. With the current rate other technologies like solar, tidal, and wind are improving right now nuclear could actually be a bad investment. Nuke plants are expensive, and about 75% of their lifetime operating costs are in construction, with a 60-80 life time expected. They tend to take about 6-10 years to make. You can end up in a situation where by the time the reactors are actually coming online, they're competing with renewables which are now a fair amount cheaper than coal by then, and can be installed very quickly.
All of a sudden that investment in nuclear starts looking really bad, as those really high start up costs basically make them noncompetitive with near future renewables, and you're stuck with a bunch of expensive plants which don't need to exist.
Now, 20 years ago this wasn't an argument, but it could happen now with some ease. Of course, if we get a miracle and one of those fusion start ups actually gets something, none of this really matters.
On the other hand, going nuclear wouldn't actually stop CO2 emissions, as power generation isn't the only cause. It'd make it vastly more manageable though, but it wouldn't Y2K it.
Mon, 2016-03-21 09:44
#13
Climate Change: Important and Irrelevant at the same time.
timelapse video.
Now, it may be that Humanity isn't responsible (We are, but for the sake of argument.) but that doesn't matter. It's still going to make us suffer, and may be our end if we don't do something about it, at least through limiting our contributions if we can't actually act to counteract it.
It's also important to remember that Climate Change =/= Global Warming. It's not just that there's more heat but it's in the "wrong" locations, which trigger little things like hurricanes, tsunamis, and so on.
But who knows – maybe it's all fake. Maybe Climate Change is just a myth... but things like Air Quality, Water Quality and Ocean Acidity aren't.
The byproducts of Hydrocarbon power cause health problems and combine with rain to damage buildings, Frakking forces harmful chemicals into the groundwater and causes actual earthquakes... the list goes on and on.
When you get down to it, we're all personally better off in a world where we treat climate change as a vital issue.
If only because we should make our decisions based on the consequences of us being wrong.
Um, you know we can watch it happen right? Thermal imaging and tempurature records?
Actually, Nasa did a really neat —
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Mon, 2016-03-21 10:49
#14
Legislation doesn't keep the lights on
Regarding the random non-sequiteur about "technology doesn't replace social progress": first of all I don't see why they would be mutually exclusive, we can develop technology and learn to use it responsibly at the same time, but more importantly "social progress" doesn't keep the lights on or put food on the table.
We didn't get where we are today by holding hands and learning to share what we have better. We did it by extracting and exploiting resources that our ancestors didn't even know existed. The poor in the west live better than kings of old because using technology we have created more wealth than those kings could have possibly imagined. All the gold of Solomon couldn't buy what we take for granted today.
I poke fun at Malthusians a lot, but at Malthus' time his concerns about running out of food were entirely legitimate, at least to someone unaware of just how much of an impact better technology would have. The technology of Malthus' time actually was entirely incapable of feeding two billion people, much less seven, no matter how equitably they may have tried to distribute it. It is technology that derailed Malthusian predictions, and which continues to do so every time they crop up again.
As for science hitting a dead end, where to you get that idea? Moore's Law is alive and well, though it may experience some turbulence as we shift gears to maintain the price/performance curve through a new paradigm. Robots are getting better and cheaper every day, the price of solar drops by half every couple of years, neural interfaces are leaving the lab and entering real-world medicine, a 3D printer costs $300 now and is getting cheaper. Fusion is only 10 years away now instead of 20, virtual reality is here, augmented reality is right behind it, we have auto-lacing shoes, power armor (~$5000 from Panasonic IIRC), giant mech fights, and within a few decades all the resources of the asteroid belt will be ours to command.
The future is here, and it's only getting better.
As an aside, we should probably consider a thread merge. These two threads are pretty much about the same topic.
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Mon, 2016-03-21 19:07
#15
There is the possibility that
There is the possibility that all the technologies which allow us to maintain such a high population are only setting us up for a worse future crash. We keep banking that future society and technology will be sufficient to fix the set of problems created by the current combination of society and technology.
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Mon, 2016-03-21 19:30
#16
Friend Computer reminds you Optimism is Mandatory
While technically elevating ourselves with technology does give us farther to fall if, say, nuclear war sends us back to the stone age, we've been all-in on this bet pretty much since we invented farming and backing out really isn't a realistic option.
After all, do you want to be the one to tell seven billion people, "Look to your right and to your left. Of the three of you, only one will see tomorrow. It's for the Greater Good."?
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Tue, 2016-03-22 11:16
#17
Oh we are stuck with it now.
Oh we are stuck with it now. I do have some hope that our species successfully spreads beyond earth before a crash leaves future civilisations with no resources to break orbit.
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