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What happens to boring, antisocial, or introverted people in places with rep economies?

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DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
UnitOmega wrote:I would also
UnitOmega wrote:
I would also say this particular situation is rapidly approaching the circular augment critical mass on the EP forums, and unless there are genuinely some real new points to go over rather than rephrasing of previous points, it's probably best to concede to fundamental differences of opinion and let it go unless there are some fresh perspectives to bring in. There's no point in going 10 rounds on the subject if there's only a couple of participants who continue to make the same arguments, just trying to use new phrasing and examples.
I was thinking the same thing. I was thinking about asking for the topic to move on to something else, or just quit immediately. This topic has ceased to be interesting for me. Continuing this topic might lead to hurt feelings and grudges (I see signs of that happening right now). Not good for any community. I'll play it safe and quit right now.
obsidian razor obsidian razor's picture
I'd just add to what
I'd just add to what UnitOmega is saying. Basically, and this is something that sadly happens often in RPGs, we're mistaking system with setting. In the rule-wise mechanical system that EP uses, rep works somewhat like money. It has to, as we need an abstraction to measure when our players can get X or Y in a rep economy in a way that it's trackable and can be worked out with reasonable simplicity. But this "system" is a massive game serving abstraction of what's really going on "in universe". In universe rep is fluffy, it probably changes from habitat to habitat, in some it will work like a reputation based money system, in others, it will be sharing a communaly owned pile of resources between all the members of a hab. There's just too many examples and the game master will have to try and "fit" the provided rules with all these situations. Now, back to the original question of the OP, the answer is a rather unhelpful "it depends". In some habs if you carry your weight around and do jobs to help the hab as a whole, you'll be in high rep standing even if you are an antisocial person that locks themselves up 90% of the time and does not respond well to unwanted approaches. In other habs the same person might be have a rep of almost 0 because the hab "expects" its members to be active social participants and not being an active social member of the comunity is seen as a massive protocol breach and no amount of hard work will clear that negative rep.
Tango Tango's picture
Al right, for the last time.
Al right, for the last time. Use any type of economic model in your games, i don't care. I'm not going to come interrupt your game and start complaining how unrealistic it is. But if we're going to discuss economics in here, then this attitude, that "if you're against the rep system, then your'e an incurable cynic that belongs in the past" is not really helping. There are certain economic realities that apply to every human endeavor, no matter their political biases. Nano fabrication is not free, no matter what they tell you. It needs power and materials and so somebody has to mine & process those. Somebody has to burn calories for your "free" stuff. In a philosophical sense, there is something to be said about a society that can only be realized with the advent of a certain type of technology. We know what happens when you take away personal responsibility and replace it with common ownership. The Berlin wall was there to keep people in, not out. People were risking their lives to get away and to achieve economic independence. Does it not speak of the nature of the human mind to at least some degree? You can ignore history, but it won't ignore you. I've already agreed that a rep economy can be viable in a limited scale, but take a look around. What makes this discussion possible? A worldwide information network, data processing systems, infrastructure, power; the list goes on. Start hacking each of these articles to smaller pieces. You'll get material and technology r&d, architects or various kinds. Logistical and industrial operations spanning the world across different cultures. Millions of people, including tens, if not hundreds of thousands of specialists. This is just a scratch on the surface of what it takes to run a modern society. If you're telling me that all this can achieved with good will and trust, well, all i can say is "everything is possible". And by that i mean in the quantum physics -kind of way. So play the game however you want, but if you claim the rep economy to be the next step for mankind, i expect better arguments than "the AI is just that good" or "human nature automatically gravitates towards this given the opportunity". I'm not saying you are wrong, but i need more than blind faith to buy the premise. The cost of being wrong is paid in blood as we have seen in our history.
- "Mom's chicken soup, maybe?"
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Damnit, I go away for a
Damnit, I go away for a couple of weeks and the interesting threads come out :P As I understand it, Rep isn't a currency per se, simply because you can't actually "buy" anything with it - it's nothing more than a measure of one's "trustworthiness". When someone looks at your rep score, they're using your record of past actions to evaluate whether to make a deal with you or send you packing. Yes you can burn rep to "buy" things, but that's not you saying "I will give you rep for your product", rather it's you either reneging on deals, acting shady so people get nervous, or generally being "greedy". To use your example of a Worker in a company, in a pure rep-economy they wouldn't be getting payed in rep at all - they may get a bonus to his rep for being gainfully employed, but that would be a constant modifier for the duration of their employment rather than a constant influx, and almost certainly would not come from the employer. If the worker gets "payed" at all, it's going to be in goods or services - work in a feedstock refinery and you get to take some home at the end of the shift, over and above the basic ration everyone gets. That's not to say it's perfect. Quite the contrary, it's an societal model typified by the stereotypical American Highschool Cafeteria, or possibly suburban gated communities, with all the bile, politics and petty cruelty that comes with them. However, they also aren't anything new. It's just a codification of something that already exists. Which again brings us back to the OP. Having a mental disorder is in some ways not nearly as bad as is could be, in part there are going to be people willing to provide analysis/care/psychosurgical treatment in order to bump their standing in the community, but mostly because "I want to cure my condition to be more socially acceptable" is the kind of thing Anarchist communities would likely treat for "free" because doing so makes their lives/community better. On the other hand, those of us who are simply private, introverted, socially awkward or subject to gossip/rumor are screwed. Best case we get kicked out, worst case we get mind-twirked as they try to "fix" us of the terrible disorder of liking solitude.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Jetpack Jetpack's picture
Tango wrote:
Tango wrote:
So play the game however you want, but if you claim the rep economy to be the next step for mankind, i expect better arguments than "the AI is just that good" or "human nature automatically gravitates towards this given the opportunity". I'm not saying you are wrong, but i need more than blind faith to buy the premise. The cost of being wrong is paid in blood as we have seen in our history.
I don't think anyone is going to be lined up and shot due to the writing of the EP authors, so I wouldn't worry too much about blood being spilled. Besides, the same authors made most of the system capitalist. If you feel this strongly about the rep system, just dump it. Or..... Show how badly it's working in your game. Make them the big villain. Either way, just have fun. The e-Reppers aren't staging a coup.
babayaga babayaga's picture
I'll just add a few thoughts
I'll just add a few thoughts that I've not seen expressed so far. They are opinions, so I'm not trying to convince anyone.
Tango wrote:
If rep is the only thing that determines your access to resources in a moneyless society, then it is money.
In some sense yes. It does control access to scarce resources. More rep will mean access to more scarce resources, and obviously accessing scarce resources will reduce how many *additional* scarce resources you can access given your rep. But in other ways money and rep are very different. Here are just two big differences. The first is that rep, or rather reps, because there are many different types, tend to deal with one specific environment of goods/services/stuff. A specific rep economy arises when the majority of the folks caring about a certain environment of things - say, science, or media celebrity, or criminal power - have that class of things as the primary asset they deal in and care about. A currency for that stuff (a stuff-rep) then naturally arises as a means to accurately gauge and safely accumulate value *within* the field, even when the stuff in the field might be hard to gauge and can fluctuate wildly compared to stuff outside of the field. Even in today's world, if you are really, really obsessed by math, particularly if you already receive some basic income that provides for the necessities of life, you will engage in a complex economy of math rep - collaborating with other authors, promoting your ideas/students/papers, maneuvering to get into this editorial board or into that program committee. How much money is it worth to you getting a certain math result, or having an article published in a certain journal? You'll hardly know, nor will your colleagues. But everyone in your field will be able to gauge fairly accurately and consistently the relative value, to a certain person, of getting article X into journal Y vs. that of being called into editorial board Z. And most of you will care much more about that than about money (or media celebrity, or criminal power). The second crucial difference is that reps accumulate/dissipate violating many of the basic laws of followed by money. One example. One person can always transfer money to another, all the way up to the amount he owns; and the amount he loses is the amount the other gains. This is not (always) true of rep. If you have a high academic reputation, you may only be able to transfer a small amount of it to others, and the amount transfered probably costs you less than they gain (though sometimes more), and can vary wildly depending on whom you are dealing with. Different reps may have different rules in this regard. This is not an aspect well-modeled by the EP mechanics. Let me now comment on the OP. I think it's incorrect to think that being charming and sociable will necessarily help you more in a rep economy than in a traditional one. Note that even in a traditional economy being charming and sociable helps: you gain more career contacts, you can generally inflate to a certain extent the value of what you sell in the eyes of others, and you might get to marry the boss's daughter. In some rep economies (say, media celebrity?) it will probably help even more. In some (academics?) about the same as in a traditional economy. In others (maybe criminal cartels?) probably less. I also tend to think it's incorrect to say that rep economies are more "post-scarcity" and more about fairer, more "socialist" societies. Oh no. It's just that they tend to be about some other special_stuff (that admittedly people can afford caring about only after their basic needs are met, so they are post-scarcity in this sense), so people tend to be less greedy and obsessed and more uniformly poor when looking at money, because they don't prize money as much as special_stuff, and reserve to special_stuff all their greed. People in a special_stuff economy will also tend to give away money relatively freely when it can gain them special_stuff, so to an outside observer who does not understand special_stuff they appear generous and nice and somewhat eccentric people. But it's not exactly like that. The academic who will gladly loan you half his house, or will just leave to his brother the family's multibillion company in exchange for a small stipend, that same man will begrudge, lose sleep on, and fight toe and nail over having his name appear third rather than second in the author list of a given article. One may wonder how @-rep and c-rep enter this picture. What's the special_stuff that drives participants in these economies in the same way that academic reputation drives academics and criminal power drives criminals? It's easier for c-rep; it's ... social standing in a way very similar to what we understand today, and that we understood better a century ago. It's the thing that in decades past made, and in large strata of society still makes, a white woman prefer marriage to a poor white man than to a rich black man; to a man working for the government or the army for a moderate stipend, than to a man making vast profits from managing brothels; to a man whose family is poor, but has been wealthy and respected for centuries, than to one who is rich but was descended from generations of beggars and slaves and criminals; to a poor upright christian, than to a rich brilliant satanist. It's also what a mayor, a governor, and the president and (to a lesser extent) every member of the local golf-club or college fraternity gains. It's what you gain by doing the "right" things, and what you lose catastrophically by not doing them. And it's what will get you invited to parties where no amount of money will get you invited, and your children admitted to schools where no amount of money will get them admitted, and your parents buried in graveyards where no amount of money will get them buried. @-rep? Similar thing, but in a society that's located elsewhere and has different values; values it considers better and smarter than those of c-reppers, just as c-reppers consider their own better and smarter. There's one fundamental difference though. c-reppers live in an intrinsecally more complex society, where c-rep and money are both used and both needed (in different proportions) for various endeavours, much like it was, say, for upper strata of European society a century ago. They earn and spend the two in different ways, and must make sure they do fall short on neither. @-reppers live in a simpler society where anything that can be "purchased" can be purchased through @-rep alone.
Dr. Maxwell Dr. Maxwell's picture
Debt Economy
I think one of the hang ups in the conversation is the idea that anything that can be used to obtain resources and services is currency. It is not. Fiat currency is a rather specific thing in economic theory, representing less value and more a debt that can be transfered. Money's value is entirely based on the concept that it can be paid to someone as a sort of 'favor token.' Money was originally an tool to simplify accounting of early beuracrats rather than something that entered local economies, and in fact didn't even have physical representation. In early social structures people didn't barter goods very often, generally with people they didnt trust or know. Reputation economies are not in fact a brave new thing, but are almost certainly the first economic model humans adopted. People generally lived in small social structures where you would remember if someone was a leech or provided for others, so there was little need to view resources as something extremely personal. Money entered the picture when people stopped being as personally connected to the people around them, and its important to note that despite it being around for a very long time, for most of human history most humans didnt actually interact with money in their own social groups. Reputation and credit actually serve the same function, to depersonalize debt and allow favors, goods, and services to be transfered in an abstract way. Where as credit is a stand in for value however, reputation is a stand in for your prestige in your social order. With Panapticon society it becomes very possible to verify that someone provides to the people around them and does not hoard resources, allowing the, in reality primitive, reputation economy to be spread across a very massive 'tribe.' Instead of trading in abstract fiat currency that nominally represents the value you have a claim on you instead have a 'credit score' that represents your ability to borrow favors with the assumption you will be giving back to the greater community. Obviously rep economies depend on certain assumptions, such as the idea that all, or at least most, property is held communally and that resources are renewable or reusable. In those situations, a rep based economy has proven to be fully possible and in fact has been the most common economy through history. Rep also has flaws. It breaks down utterly when resources can easily leave the system you are in, which is why rep economies are common in anarchist habs, where you generally don't own very much and just trust in public services. The car loan examples are flawed, in most anarchist habs you do not, in fact, own a car. Instead you prove that you provide value to the hab and thus can claim partial ownership of the hab's resources, in this specific case, a car.
Don't forget to check out my open source biomorph and medtech files!
kigmatzomat kigmatzomat's picture
Dr. Maxwell hit on a couple
Dr. Maxwell hit on a couple of good points. Rep works inside a scum habitat because it is a small self contained community. I agree it is fine there in general. But small is a key word. Rep only works with shared values. Once the community is large enough to allow subgroups to form they will eventually come into conflict. I also agree with others that social outliers will be punished because I feel humans are horrible at properly evaluating risk/reward and evaluating relative merit on things they don't understand. but those that are punished will be the social outliers of the community by definition. as long as the community doesn't lose a uniquely skilled individual, the community probably doesn't mind if they leave. Where rep-only economies are incapable of functioning are the interfaces with the external universe. Habs are not entirely self contained. Fusion reactors need hydrogen. Atmosphere slowly leaks through the hull. Stellar wind ablates hulls. Populations grow. Positioning thrusters need reaction mass. Outside of Mars, your hab will need supplies just to keep the air breathable or to keep a solid surface under your feet. You have to import materials in most places. Gas giant habs need rocks and asteroid habs need gasses. So what are you exporting and how do you value it? What about items you could fab, eventually, but you need it quickly? How do you value opportunity costs? Sometimes, time itself is the scarce resource. What happens when entity A really likes/needs your export but you need something from entity B? Three way exchanges are inefficient. Ultimately you require a currency system and a market. I think the ultimate commodity underlying currency exchanges will be energy. Fabbing an item with a cm requires power. Getting the raw materials to the hab take power. With the exception of rare minerals, the bottleneck for the infinite wall of dcms are the power needs to run them. The value of a jovian gravity slingshot is measured in fuel savings. Inside the neosocialist scum hab, rep may be the way resources are managed, but ultimately a currency will be required for trade.
I'm not rules lawyer, I'm a rules engineer.
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
Necro Post!
Quote:
I know what you guys are thinking; that my greed blinded dirty little mind is just incapable of wrapping itself around this magnificent and revolutionary new system of enlightenment. Well, i would like to ask you this: Is there a Rep-system in place somewhere in the world? Is it outpacing other systems with its superior economic engine? If it exists, does it exists only because there are free market enterprises supporting it from below with infrastructure and logistics?
Possibly confirmed for never growing up in the second world or in immigrant/lower-socioeconomic-standing communities. Well, that, or not living in the northern reaches of Alaska and Canada. It's kinda hard to explain to people who don't actively participate in the system itself. My father happens to be good at working on cars. While I am okay, I don't particularly like getting my hands too dirty anymore, and I happen to often times not be strong enough and lack most of the tools needed to get the job itself done. My father is no longer as good at A/V, signal processing, and IT related needs. Recently, I needed some work done on my car. We got together, and pooled resources to repair the car. Me helping run diagnostics by interpreting sensor readings, him with the tools and strength required to get the car work done. He has a reputation for being good at car repairs and often uses this skill as a kind of bartering currency of sorts. Doesn't matter if you like the guy or not, he is good at what he does. Often times, I end up repaying him via food, computer repairs, firearm cleaning/fixing (some of those buggers are like clocks and are very finicky. I am looking at you, Ruger Mark-II), and titling/government nonsense. Jean gets me gifts. In return, I carry out favours for her. Help her husband get out of her hair by fixing small things he doesn't understand, teach her how to make traps to catch animals, occasionally offer her transportation, offer physical labour in return (has yet to truly take me up on said offer). I barter knowledge, skills, and sometimes things for the promise of knowledge, skills, and things in return in the future, should I need it. Reputation is less about whether people like you, per se. It's more like a Yelp or Google+ business review score than Facebook likes or Reddit's vote system. In FB and reddit, you're not really creating content/services in the same way an actual economy requires. It is almost entirely about what services you provide, how in demand those services are, if you are honest, and if you are any good at them. That is not to say there aren't cliques within these systems. There definitely are. And you can definitely own property with a reputation based system. Maybe not so much in a capitalist 48 states American sense. But you definitely own things. If you [i]really[/i] want to see Rep Econs working in a more real time, visual, less abstract fashion, I suggest you start watching [b]Life Below 0[/b]. Or look into pre-1991 second world cottage industry and bartering (we patch car radiator for fish and pair of Levis). This all being said, if you truly have no real skills, or absolutely refuse to help anyone, your reputation is going to tank. Maybe not to the point where you have no food and shelter. But no one will be willing to stick their neck out for you until you show you are willing to stick your neck out for them. Ce va?
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture
Ho boy, this thread. The ride
Ho boy, this thread. The ride never ends does it? :P
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address
Tango Tango's picture
I was born in Sweden to a
I was born in Sweden to a piss poor single parent household, but whatever. I do help my friends in misc. tasks no strings attached and am an all around good dude in my sircle. And you didn't address the fundamental point in that quote of mine: It's not about fixing someone's car in exchange for a hot meal or some firewood. It's about the car. It's about the road the car drives on. It's about the underlying infrastructure & logistics that makes it all possible. Lets take something seemingly simple as that power outlet in your room. What did it take, for us collectively, for you to be able to charge your phone from that outlet? Power stations, power lines, r&d, resource extraction operations. Infrastructure projects. Maintenance. The copper in that power cord had to be mined from somewhere. All this includes millions of people spanning the globe, different backgrounds, different cultures. The rare earth metals in your phone are mined in Vietnam/Myanmar. The oil for the plastic casing comes probably from Saudi-Arabia. R&D is done in the states or in europe. Its assembled in South Korea. Just imagine the amount of resources that has to come together to accomplish all this. I can't see any way a rep economy could accomplish this to the same efficiency. How could it? When you transition from local to global scene, nobody cares about you anymore because nobody knows anyone else. The parties involved just try to negotiate best possible deals from the transaction. This is how the market discovers price. The argument for rep economy fails when you include multiple (and opposing) cultures and factions. It assumes, that people play nice and that if abuse is detected, AI will handle it (when it can't). The problem is fundamental. AI cant tell if a ping is legit or not (because it's just someone's opinion). And because of that, the whole system is worthless. It cannot measure value. You find the lowest common denominator and build on it. I've seen too many fuckups in my career to assume anything but the worst from any random colleague. If they then step up and surprise me positively, great. But you build systems by first asking yourself "how could they fuck this up the worst way possible?" and then plan to cover all the angles. The rep system has too many angles and too few solutions.
- "Mom's chicken soup, maybe?"
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
A lot of what you are talking
A lot of what you are talking about is automated in the setting. Not all, but a lot.
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
Pyrite Pyrite's picture
Tango wrote:
Tango wrote:
It's not about fixing someone's car in exchange for a hot meal or some firewood. It's about the car. It's about the road the car drives on. It's about the underlying infrastructure & logistics that makes it all possible. Lets take something seemingly simple as that power outlet in your room. What did it take, for us collectively, for you to be able to charge your phone from that outlet? Power stations, power lines, r&d, resource extraction operations. Infrastructure projects. Maintenance. The copper in that power cord had to be mined from somewhere. All this includes millions of people spanning the globe, different backgrounds, different cultures. The rare earth metals in your phone are mined in Vietnam/Myanmar. The oil for the plastic casing comes probably from Saudi-Arabia. R&D is done in the states or in europe. Its assembled in South Korea. Just imagine the amount of resources that has to come together to accomplish all this. I can't see any way a rep economy could accomplish this to the same efficiency. How could it? When you transition from local to global scene, nobody cares about you anymore because nobody knows anyone else. The parties involved just try to negotiate best possible deals from the transaction. This is how the market discovers price.
I'm pretty sure this is why we only see pure-rep economies in isolated space habitats that don't see a lot of foreign exchange.
'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien
thepedant thepedant's picture
Rep is badly written in the sourcebook
I re-read the Reputation section of the sourcebook, and it strongly intimates that your character sheet rep score to a visible score in-game, like the Credit and F***ability of Super Sad True Love Story (in the novel, everyone's smart device had an app which would immediately show everyone else's spending power and attractiveness as culled from social media). I would say that this is a bad way to think of rep, and everyone who says "you can't run an economy off some randomly fluctuating social media number" is absolutely correct. Except as some sort of crazy commune thought experiment, nobody would provide or not provide goods or services based solely on a community-assigned social media score. Let's sever the link. Whatever you see in game fiction when your character calls up an AR app showing my standing with autonomists, whatever that purports to be, that in-game score is not actually my @-rep. My @-rep should be a deeply abstracted for making the game fun purposes measure of various reciprocal social obligations with people in the Autonomist community. While it in part is determined by information transmitted over social networks, it's also representing some variant of long-standing human traditions of "hospitality" or reciprocal gift-giving, etc. which will vary from habitat to habitat. But if I use @-rep, I might be relying on mostly non-electronic ties of culture and kinship, especially if mesh access in an area sucks. In order for Networking in the game to be fun and useful, it's a lot broader than might be plausible in "real life," so yes, with a good roll someone who knows your friend's cousin's cousin on social media will trust you enough on the basis of that link to sell you a kilogram of antimatter at wholesale or whatever. But that's because this is a game, not an anthropology class simulation of reciprocal social obligations among self-identified interest groups.

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