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Languages and Education

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Tue, 2010-07-27 17:11

Duke Rollo Duke Rollo's picture

Languages and Education

DISCLAIMER: Apologies if the issues I raise here have already been addressed in other threads. I try to do my best to look at what's been posted before I post, but I'm only a flat with no muse... so if this has already been beaten to death, go ahead and direct me to that thread. That being said, let's talk about language. I was thinking about language and communication in Eclipse Phase. Let's assume that anyone who's packing a muse (and the implants to support it) has the ability to translate a language as it as being spoken. Through augmented reality, I'm sure that it's possible to make it appear that a person's lips are moving properly for the language you understand. I'm sure that with proper mesh access, a muse can likely download an entire language in no time at all. So why would people bother learning languages? This got me thinking. The first reason I could think of was idiomatic expressions. Let's say you speak Farsi and your muse has an English translation program. Is your software cool enough to figure out that "What's up?" can mean "hello" as well as "are you all right", but usually doesn't mean an inquiry about that which is elevated? I could go either way on the question. Your muse could tell you "He's saying hello" or "He wants to know what's above you. Yeah. It makes no sense to me either." I'm leaning towards the muse understanding, but the jury is still out for me. So I could see people not quite trusting translation software and wanting to know for themselves... and thus learning another language. But then I started to think about how would a person go about learning a language in EP. How would that happen? I mean... have you have a muse that can speak to you at the speed of thought. Imagine for a moment that you have a person in your head that can clue you in on what you're saying wrong before you say it. Before long, you'd probably be pretty fluent. or would you? Would you instead rely completely on your muse to cue you for words and phrases? This got me thinking about education in general. How do young people learn skills in EP? Let's say you're about 20 years old when the game begins and you've lived most of your adolescent & adult life with a muse. Why would you need to sit through a class? Why would a teacher need to drone on and on to you when you can just download a math instruction class to your muse. Wouldn't a person's muse make the best teacher? An AI that understands your preferences and tries to anticipate your needs? Let's assume that there are still elementary schools as people aren't born with their implants (right?). So at some point kids get their muse implanted. Then what? Do they attend classes? How would that work? Would the classes be in simulspace and speeded up? Simulspace can have different time dilations. So could you take ten hours of classes in ten minutes? How much could you learn by the time you're 18? Think for a moment about how high school serves to socialize young adults. If there aren't classes to go to, why would you need a high school? If there's no high school, how are kids becoming socialized? Through the mesh? What about college level work? When would that begin? If you can go into simulspace and have things done 60 times faster, how old are you when you go for say... your Doctorate? Of all those indentured infomorphs, I'm sure some of them are highly educated... and could possibly be tasked with educating others. Lots to think about. Your thoughts?

—

-Duke Rollo

Wed, 2010-07-28 02:16

Decivre

Re: Languages and Education

Duke Rollo wrote:
DISCLAIMER: Apologies if the issues I raise here have already been addressed in other threads. I try to do my best to look at what's been posted before I post, but I'm only a flat with no muse... so if this has already been beaten to death, go ahead and direct me to that thread. That being said, let's talk about language. I was thinking about language and communication in Eclipse Phase. Let's assume that anyone who's packing a muse (and the implants to support it) has the ability to translate a language as it as being spoken. Through augmented reality, I'm sure that it's possible to make it appear that a person's lips are moving properly for the language you understand. I'm sure that with proper mesh access, a muse can likely download an entire language in no time at all.

It probably requires less than that. With the ubiquitousness of the mesh, and the speed at which data transmission seems to occur, it's very likely that you can have a language translated for you in real time without ever having to download anything, simply by being connected to a translation server somewhere.

Duke Rollo wrote:
So why would people bother learning languages? This got me thinking. The first reason I could think of was idiomatic expressions. Let's say you speak Farsi and your muse has an English translation program. Is your software cool enough to figure out that "What's up?" can mean "hello" as well as "are you all right", but usually doesn't mean an inquiry about that which is elevated? I could go either way on the question. Your muse could tell you "He's saying hello" or "He wants to know what's above you. Yeah. It makes no sense to me either." I'm leaning towards the muse understanding, but the jury is still out for me. So I could see people not quite trusting translation software and wanting to know for themselves... and thus learning another language.

You underestimate the software. Facial and vocal recognition makes it possible for translation systems to detect such things as lingual inflection and the demeanor of the speaker. Through this, it is very possible for translation software to discern intended meaning despite multiple possibilities. As an alternative, it is also very possible that translation servers will actually house AI that will translate languages dynamically, in the same way that a multilingual person might.

Duke Rollo wrote:
But then I started to think about how would a person go about learning a language in EP. How would that happen? I mean... have you have a muse that can speak to you at the speed of thought. Imagine for a moment that you have a person in your head that can clue you in on what you're saying wrong before you say it. Before long, you'd probably be pretty fluent. or would you? Would you instead rely completely on your muse to cue you for words and phrases?

It's very possible. The largest reason that people would likely learn a language as opposed to relying on translation software would be for communal purposes. People resonate better with someone who speaks their own language, as opposed to someone who is speaking to them through a translator. This is the likely reason that so many people are at least bilingual; they know one language for the most usual traders and tourists of their chosen region, and then one more language for their own people.

Duke Rollo wrote:
This got me thinking about education in general. How do young people learn skills in EP? Let's say you're about 20 years old when the game begins and you've lived most of your adolescent & adult life with a muse. Why would you need to sit through a class? Why would a teacher need to drone on and on to you when you can just download a math instruction class to your muse. Wouldn't a person's muse make the best teacher? An AI that understands your preferences and tries to anticipate your needs? Let's assume that there are still elementary schools as people aren't born with their implants (right?). So at some point kids get their muse implanted. Then what? Do they attend classes? How would that work? Would the classes be in simulspace and speeded up? Simulspace can have different time dilations. So could you take ten hours of classes in ten minutes? How much could you learn by the time you're 18? Think for a moment about how high school serves to socialize young adults. If there aren't classes to go to, why would you need a high school? If there's no high school, how are kids becoming socialized? Through the mesh? What about college level work? When would that begin? If you can go into simulspace and have things done 60 times faster, how old are you when you go for say... your Doctorate? Of all those indentured infomorphs, I'm sure some of them are highly educated... and could possibly be tasked with educating others. Lots to think about. Your thoughts?

It is very likely that accelerated simulspace plays a key part in the education of people. When skill gain is measured in weeks, it is essentially possible to further your own abilities in a matter of hours... perhaps less... simply by utilizing time acceleration. However, you must also note that people may be somewhat wary of accelerated education. The most ambitious accelerated maturation program of all time (Project Futura) was a complete and utter failure that resulted in the release of sociopaths into the community at large (as far as the public is concerned). Not everyone is going to be willing to test the limits of learning speed because of this. That said, the mesh certainly does open up broad possibilities for education. AI and forking technology makes it feasible that every single student can have their own personal teacher, who can cater directly to their learning issues and advantages. It also opens up the possibility for a much more diverse school community, effectively allowing kids to learn social skills by potentially hanging out and playing with every other kid in the same age group that is currently on the mesh. The same can be said with adult education as well. The permeation of digital documentation also opens up whole new possibilities in research and discovery. Who knows how amazing it will be to be educated in the world of Eclipse Phase.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Thu, 2010-07-29 17:19

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Languages and Education

Duke Rollo wrote:
So why would people bother learning languages?

To think? While the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (that language controls how we think) is likely wrong, the weak form (that it influences it) seems to have some support. You might want to learn some languages just to gain access to certain modes of thinking and feeling. Then there is the ability to appreciate art and texts: translations often lose something (compare Shakespeare in English with the original Klingon), not to mention the need to detect distortions in translations (you don't want to miss the subtleties of what the Triad leader *really* is saying and your muse's translation). A lot of people are probably taking the easy way out and thinking they can rely on translations. But they will be subtly handicapped around multilingual people. Especially when their muse cannot access a translation site.

Duke Rollo wrote:
I mean... have you have a muse that can speak to you at the speed of thought. Imagine for a moment that you have a person in your head that can clue you in on what you're saying wrong before you say it. Before long, you'd probably be pretty fluent. or would you? Would you instead rely completely on your muse to cue you for words and phrases?

Good question. I think AI- and neuro-supported learning could be much more powerful thank normal learning when done right. But how to do it right, both in general and for a particular unique person, that might be hard and require much trial and error. Mislearning can be quite a problem. One negative trait I allow in my gaming group is this one (slightly translated): Nolang (10 CP negative trait) You have grown up with translator devices (or neurointerfaces) always translating what people say. So you never really learned your "own" language: you speak a personal shorthand that your devices understand and translate, and they translate everybody else into your language. Very convenient, except when forced into a situation where you cannot rely on translation. -30 on any communications attempt, even Kinesics, when not fully supported by your Muse and other technology.

Duke Rollo wrote:
Do they attend classes? How would that work?

You want children to learn how to socialize. The point of schools in EP might be less the lessons (whatever they are) and more the schoolyard with all the games, petty politics, drama and plain humanity.

Quote:
Would the classes be in simulspace and speeded up? Simulspace can have different time dilations. So could you take ten hours of classes in ten minutes? How much could you learn by the time you're 18?

Note that this requires you to run as an infomorph to make full use of it. I doubt it is very healthy for biological brains to fast forward simspaces for long. I think Vinge's "Fast times at Fairmont High" gives some good ideas for what an EP school might involve. Few traditional classes, but a lot of projects challenging the students to solve problems in various situations, under different constraints and in different social contexts.

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Thu, 2010-07-29 17:42

Duke Rollo Duke Rollo's picture

Re: Languages and Education

Here's a couple of thoughts... First, thanks for the replies. Very well thought out. Second, which would you trust more? Your own brain or your muse? Go with the triad conversation example. If you think that x is being stated, but your muse says it's y which would you go for? Would people find it insulting if you DIDN'T use a language translator? Would you hear, "stop but but butchering my lovely French and switch to the translation torrent I just gave you." I could see, as far as language goes, a very star wars feel... Where everyone just speaks whatever language and everyone else just understands it. "Waaaaah. Wooo." "you sure said it, Chewy." here's kind of an important question: when and how do transhumans become adults?

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-Duke Rollo

Fri, 2010-07-30 02:34

Decivre

Re: Languages and Education

Duke Rollo wrote:
Here's a couple of thoughts... First, thanks for the replies. Very well thought out. Second, which would you trust more? Your own brain or your muse? Go with the triad conversation example. If you think that x is being stated, but your muse says it's y which would you go for? Would people find it insulting if you DIDN'T use a language translator? Would you hear, "stop but but butchering my lovely French and switch to the translation torrent I just gave you." I could see, as far as language goes, a very star wars feel... Where everyone just speaks whatever language and everyone else just understands it. "Waaaaah. Wooo." "you sure said it, Chewy." here's kind of an important question: when and how do transhumans become adults?

For what you should trust, it really depends on how much you understand about protocol. If you have spoken to triad members before, then you might very well be more willing to trust your own instincts. However, there are very few aspects of language that are universal, if any. As such, you can never truly assume, when speaking to someone of a culture completely alien to you, that anything you do will be interpreted in the way you intend it to be. Even physical cues may be very different from culture to culture, and everything down to how you bow and sit can affect someone's first impression of you. To an extent, the Star Wars analogy is somewhat apt. Remember, though, that not all places will utilize universal language. Bioconservative habitats may have a multitude of zeroes amongst their population who will not have access to translation software. Furthermore, it is very possible that certain aspects of a language may not be distributed in common translation softwares... local cant, certain euphemisms, and perhaps certain physical cues may not be kept in public translation software. These will be things that only people fluent in the language might pick up on. As for your last question, it's a very tough one to answer. The Lost were mentally the equivalent of full-grown adults by the time they were 3 years old. To that end, it may be very difficult to discern age based on things like physical appearance; it only makes it worse that young children are likely not to have a reputation, and therefore are likely not to have a record for you to reference to discern this info. That woman you slept with last night might be a 200 year-old Chinese woman who rejuvenated her body so she could live the crazy life again, or it could be her 13 year-old daughter who decided to take her mommy's "party sleeve" out for a joy ride. Hard to say. Legally it will probably be something that differs from hab to hab, much like legal consent ages today. Philosophically, it may be something that is more of a personal choice. In fact, some people might get whole new identities and try to find a way to get back to being a child again (perhaps turning themselves in at the local orphanage in an underdeveloped morph)... who knows?

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Fri, 2010-07-30 03:54

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Languages and Education

Duke Rollo wrote:
here's kind of an important question: when and how do transhumans become adults?

Being an adult is about being able to live independently in society, both economically, socially and emotionally. It is a matter of degree. I think transhumans become adults at a much faster rate in EP than in the current world, but this may have less to do with the advanced technology and more with the turbulent situation. In my native Sweden I have noticed that today many people remain "teenagers" until 30 or so, in many cases quite dependent on parents and other support structures before finally growing up and becoming their own. This might simply be a response to a very comfy, high security situation where there is no need to grow up fast. Compare that with the post-Fall world, where everything is up in the air, factions clash and new technologies may wipe out your culture in a month. I would suspect the children of EP to mature very rapidly to handle this uncertainty. But *legally* the rules for adulthood might be lagging. It could be that 18 years is still the legal standard in many places despite being totally out of step with reality. There could be many "children" who are actually disenfranchised and angry young adults, pushing for recognition against the gerontocrats (for an interesting fictional treatment, see "Deception Well" by Linda Nagata). (one PC in my campaign is waiting for his 100 year birthday, when he will finally inherit mom's hypercorp and become "adult")

—

Mon, 2011-06-13 13:10

petros

Re: Languages and Education

Arenamontanus wrote:
-snip- Nolang (10 CP negative trait) You have grown up with translator devices (or neurointerfaces) always translating what people say. So you never really learned your "own" language: you speak a personal shorthand that your devices understand and translate, and they translate everybody else into your language. Very convenient, except when forced into a situation where you cannot rely on translation. -30 on any communications attempt, even Kinesics, when not fully supported by your Muse and other technology. -snip-

This is truly inspired. I had often wondered about how people learned any language in a world with ubiquitous translation, whether it's Farscape's translator microbes, Hitchhikers Babel Fish, or the universal translator from Star Trek, but I just assumed that children were not given access to translators until later in life, and I never went any further. I'm trying to picture what listening to a Nolang without translation would sound like. Probably eerily quiet for the most part, louder when emotional, a vaguely baby-like gibberish. Without their translation protocols in place, they are stuck, unless they learn another language. You can always tell a native Nolang from their accent. Perhaps a rule where your success at skills such as Deception, Intimidation and Persuasion could be influenced by what languages you have in common with the target. With translation software, one can of course communicate with anyone. But you can be more nuanced when you have a native or fluent command of the language, and so have a more subtle effect. Things never have quite the same resonance outside the original language, no matter how skilled the translator or faithful the translation. Nolangs would not be vulnerable to this kind of charisma, absorbing everything through a software filter, but equally they could not use it on anyone.

Mon, 2011-06-13 16:17

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

Re: Languages and Education

Dangit, I started reading the original post, and was right on my way to post that very same trait concept... Nolang patois seem like something that'd be very interesting to study, especially when you consider that there might be whole communities formed of these people out there, either in isolated habs or on the mesh, who are forced to create their own little language. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjtioIFuNf8]Here's something real and relevant.[/url] Narrated by Liam Neeson, too! As it turns out, in Nicaragua, deaf children brought together refused to learn sign language because they'd already, and astonishingly quickly, developed their own when brought together. Imagine a similar situation playing out, say, on Luna, where Nolang kids are forced to adapt; they could develop whole new languages.

—

[img]http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/982/exhumanbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4473/scumbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1396/gatecrasherbar.jpg[/img] [code][@-rep +1, f-rep +2][/code]

Tue, 2011-06-14 03:23

det

Re: Languages and Education

I think exploring/first-in gatecrashers might want to have at least one languange in common, all of them, just in case. Tecnically your muse still works but when you have no mesh at all you can't access translation software or other things unless you brought them with you. Beside if you finish in a spare, you have no muse there, or not your muse at least, so best to know a language the others know too.

Sun, 2015-08-23 15:31

#10

consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture

I know this is a bit of a

I know this is a bit of a thread resleeve but Arenamontanus' Nolang trait is officially going into my games' house rules from now on. I absolutely love it!

Mon, 2015-10-12 09:47

#11

boomzilla

Why bother with multiple languages in EP?

1. Impersonation. Difficult to impersonate the monolingual Cantonese-speaking Triad gangster if you only speak English. (Notice that taking the spy package from TH gives you bonus languages). 2. social smoothness--I imagine the translation is a bit like a dubbed kung fu movie, or perhaps being at the UN. Most people are pretty used to it, but for certain situations--say you are trying to break into a snobby poetry circle full of hyper-aesthetes--maybe impose a -5 penalty to social tests? (I don't think e.g. combat should be affected, though, because it actually has a constrained lexicon (just listen to a recordings of military radio chatter, for instance)--particularly if you have TacNet). 3. Speaking of which: aesthetics. I had one character whose motivation was +Cultural Preservation. He translated Bengali poems to English to preserve Bengali culture. I *really* think you need a fully-sapient mind (whether bio or AGI) to properly translate stuff like poetry. 4. tech fails: the big one, off the top of my head, is if characters become "zeros". That is, they have all their mesh inserts removed. (The Ultimates do this to prisoners of Xiphos, for instance).

—

[img]http://eclipsephase.com/sites/all/modules/ep-prod/profile_bars/images/ec... [img]http://www.thomasboxall.com/img/argo_userbar.jpg[/img]

Tue, 2015-10-13 09:45

#12

Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture

Man this forum lost some real

Man this forum lost some real interesting folks, especially Arenamontanus :(

—

"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address

Tue, 2015-10-13 14:18

#13

Leetsepeak Leetsepeak's picture

Noble Pigeon wrote:Man this

Noble Pigeon wrote:
Man this forum lost some real interesting folks, especially Arenamontanus :(

What ever happened to him?

Sat, 2015-10-17 13:45

#14

consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture

He's likely very busy, his

He's likely very busy, his work-a-day life involves some pretty intensive research and writing of papers, to say nothing of conferences (I see vimeo and youtube of him in locations all over the globe so I imagine he also travels a lot). I mean, he [i]is[/i] out there laying the groundwork for Project Ozma as we speak, y'know? That's a lotta work! ^_~