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People planning long-term in EP

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Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture
People planning long-term in EP
Re-reading the core book again, and on page 46 I read a passage that probably unsettled me more than the most terrifying exsurgent.
Quote:
More people are now planning for a very long future. For most people these schemes are very minimal, but they often include an [b]awareness that few, if any, relationships are likely to last an entire lifetime.[/b] However, functional immortality is only one of the many wonders of the modern world.
Well that's just outright depressing. I don't buy into the bollocks that transhuman immortality is a "wonder" if that means that relationships have no meaning if they simply end up burning out. Hey want to be buddies? Fuck you, I'm gonna get bored of your company in like four hundred years. How about marriage and having kids? Have kids? What are you, [i]Jovian[/i]? Exactly how do transhumans expect to remain sane over the next five hundred years? The next hundred thousand years? In billions of years, right down to the last quantum moment of the universe? The title of this whole setting, "eclipse phase", takes on a new meaning for me, I think. It's less about the exsurgent virus and more about how transhumanity's currently in a phase of conveniently ignoring just how mentally unprepared they are as a species for this whole immortality shtick, which by itself is an outright lie if you consider backups to be mere forks, [i]copies[/i] of people and [i]not[/i] a direct continuation of them. After a certain period, after this [i]phase[/i], even the scum might be thinking "yep, 312th year and I'm still partying. Weee wooo here comes the party train of...yeah". Do people in the setting just think extremely short term and just mentally block themselves if they start to think about where they're going to be in 1,000 years?
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Does this mean that even
Does this mean that even mortal enemies stop giving a damn after a while? There are people old enough to already be suffering from immortality blues. They're they're the ones to be watched for insight into this problem. Unfortunately, I don't recall the books really covering them much, so its hard to say what they are like beyond few scraps we have. ---- Anyways, I have considered many solutions to this problem: Load an old backup. If you have good backups, you could try to load an old one that still has the vigor to live life when you get lose too much vigor to keep going. You could shut yourself into cold storage, sit back and watch, or try to get involved with the activities of your fork in a supporting role. Technologies might exist to even upload the required new skills for your fork to be competitive in the modern age. How well this will work would depend on the views at the time. In AF 10, alpha forking is illegal for many reasons, which include that there are still people who are in cold storage and your alpha is taking up room that one them could occupy. AF 400? Impossible to say what it will be like, but chances are there would be enough resources to sustain many forks without (much if any) objections from others. Die. Complete erasure of yourself and all backups. Not a popular solution, as it might not sit well for many, but few has lived centuries and none have lived millennia. Once a sufficiently large population of people who have lived several centuries exist, there might be a paradigm shift much like there has been a paradigm shift over the right to die with dignity for those with terminal illnesses. I'm thinking there might be a point where you've done all that you could do or all that you care to do. Any further existence would be pointless. It might be possible to use technology to change yourself into something that can do more and would see meaning to exist for a bit longer, but not all will want to take that path. A large number of Jovians care not to. You might even seriously believe in an afterlife, so living a bit longer means denying yourself things like heaven or reincarnation. You might even believe in Nirvana, a state where suffering ends as does the cycle of rebirth. Avoid the worst possible outcome. Humanity now has immortality. You can live forever and enjoy life forever, but there is also technology to put you into a virtual hell. Literally. It is possible for someone to steal a fork of you and put it through a torture simulation forever. You might decide that you want to avoid that possibility at all costs, which might require some drastic choices for yourself that most people would not make. Create an ideal child or desired reincarnation to replace you. You might desired a child with certain traits that would make you happy and proud. Perhaps you see flaws in yourself that you wish you didn't have, or desire traits that you don't have. With the technology in EP and technology that might eventually exist, you could try to create a new person with all the traits you desire them to have. This person would be more than just a new person, they could be your replacement. Once you are satisfied with the results, you can do whatever you feel you need to do or appropriate once you've been replaced or have a successor. Reset yourself. You could try to reset yourself to some kind of default factory settings. Tricky for those who were never born with one. The first time doing this might involve trying to figure out your core traits and create a new ego that has them. You might then copy over important stuff, but as little as possible. You are trying to reset yourself, not rebuild yourself. It might be wise to give your reset a basic familiarity with your old life, maybe to the extent that they feel like they have read a book once of covering your whole life. Other than that, you let them choose their own life choices. Do whatever it takes to keep going. You could try running on sheer determination, but you will likely need to edit your own mind at some point. Perhaps editing it to the point where you become a posthuman. Or even an exhuman or seed intelligence. Perhaps you will offer copies of your backups to anyone who will take them to ensure a copy of you exist out there somewhere. Its hard to say what you'll need to do, but how determined you are will dictate many of your choices. Fork and take multiple paths. Send different forks of yourself to different places and different opportunities for life. Maybe force some of your forks into positions where they will have to make choices they might not want to. Maybe one or more will have something interesting to tell the rest a few decades later. Hand control over to AIs and sleep until something interesting happens. Perhaps the mistake of immortality is wanting to be alive and awake for every moment until the last iota of time that the universe has. Maybe the better solution is to put yourself into cold storage until significant or interesting moments happen and leave the real work to AIs that can't get bored. Live via XP. Stop living your life and enjoy a lot of XP. Don't just enjoy it, take the technology further and stop yourself from having your own thoughts while enjoying XP. If you are not having your own thoughts, you will probably not be suffering immortality blues. You might even exit with some new ideas (once you have time to process what you've viewed).
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Oh dear, Now I'm going to have to wax lyrical...
Or, you know, accept it as a part of life. Consider for a second, would you turn down a friendship if you know it was only going to last for 4 years? Or 4 months? We all have friends and relationships that have ended, even if it's simply the friends you made in school who you never saw again once you left, or the ones who moved away and you simply grew apart from. Looking back, how many of us wish we hadn't had those relationships? Are we filled with bitterness at what we've lost, or do we smile because of the joy they brought us whilst they lasted. Living forever means we're going to form relationships, grow and be formed by them, and then lose them... only for fresh ones to come along and restart the cycle. It means the fire of new love will consume us again and again and again, and when it fades we let our partners go amicably, knowing that the joy of that union will be carried forward forever - the ember from which new flame will grow. That's the promise of immortality; Endless Wonder, Endless Novelty, Endless Joy.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
It honestly seems really
It honestly seems really weird how a "lifelong" friendship which end because one party ceases to be are more meaningful than those which end for other reasons. I can easily see 400 year long relationships being extraordinarily meaningful, but it does seem inevitable that something will happen to break that relationship apart after a while. I don't see why it precludes stuff like family planning, I do wonder how meaningful a parent-child relationship is after the child has passed a century, but there's no answer in sight for that. It is worth noting that full immortality hasn't quite been achieved yet. IIRC it says somewhere that after a few subjective centuries most egos begin to suffer ego decay, with dementia and Alzheimers style symptoms setting in. While that's probably changing, perhaps at a rate greater than one extra year per year, it does mean that for the moment, while life can extend indefinitely, experience cannot. The societal implications of immortality are really strange though. I could see things like marriage having an expiration date, after which the marriage has to be mutually renewed by both parties.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Relationships come and go.
Relationships come and go. They may come back again. "Hey, remember how we were practically joined at the hip or equivalent bodily joint between 10 AF and 50 AF and then kind of drifted off?" "Yeah, I remember that, good times." "I've got nothing to do Saturday. Have you ever jumped out of an airlock and plummeted into the atmosphere of Titan for fun?" "For fun? No. Are you asking me on a date?" "If you want it to be a date, sure. If not, I could just use a methane-diving buddy." ".... Alright, but we have to land within a kilometer of New Quebec. I read a mesh review of this Polish place and I haven't had real kielbasa since the Fall." "Done deal."
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Relationships come and go. They may come back again. "Hey, remember how we were practically joined at the hip or equivalent bodily joint between 10 AF and 50 AF and then kind of drifted off?" "Yeah, I remember that, good times." "I've got nothing to do Saturday. Have you ever jumped out of an airlock and plummeted into the atmosphere of Titan for fun?" "For fun? No. Are you asking me on a date?" "If you want it to be a date, sure. If not, I could just use a methane-diving buddy." ".... Alright, but we have to land within a kilometer of New Quebec. I read a mesh review of this Polish place and I haven't had real kielbasa since the Fall." "Done deal."
That is some really good bit of flavor, I will need to share that with some of my players.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
I read Kim Stanley Robinson's
I read Kim Stanley Robinson's [i]2312[/i] recently, I wouldn't say he answers this in a way that "solves" it, but he does show a diversifying of ways of living both on individual/solitary and collective levels, so there's not just more and new things to be doing but more ways to be doing them. He does a good job of showing creche living with rotating parental units who may or may not have conflict or love or just a sense of responsibility with any other given creche mate, to the extent that one may eventually leave for good (or for a very long time) based on one or more of these dynamics (or even just their own personal stuff, work that has them elsewhere in the solar system is one used in the book). This stuff is complex, and certainly people will become annoyed or angered or bored or depressed or w/e with any given interpersonal configuration, but there's always more ways of living to try. If you get bored quickly maybe there aren't enough, but that sounds like a problem that manifests on a person to person basis rather than blanketed over everyone. That said, I totally agree that the setting's current See No/Hear No/Speak No socialization about backups not being contiguous in a meaningful sense is just the current socio-cultural milieu of the places where that's true around the solar system. It may not always be the case! Especially if stuff starts to turn real bad, like a TITAN re-invasion, people may just go "well fuck it whatever I'm not real anyway" and try to end themselves in a way that fries their stack without dwelling much on it, since the REAL them died in the Fall anyway. Maybe, anyway, idk if that's a direction I'd drag it in personally but I see what the OP is getting at and it does have the potential to be [i]truly[/i] horrifying. Although, then again, it may just be that what we're looking at in EP is what David Roden in [i]Posthuman Life[/i] talks about as the "Wide Human", in which case maybe what's terrifying to our narrow sensibilities in the present would only be terrifying (or a problem at all) to certain branches of Wide (trans/post)Humanity. So it could be that what we see as problems today are actually not a problem for people who transition from AF 10's confused mixup to a bunch of people who see themselves as advanced, upgraded, further evolved machinic descendants of biological phylums (as one example). A machinic phylum composed of backups that understands itself as a machinic phylum might be able to solve for some of the immortality problems that an embodied mind, interconnected as our brains are with the rest of our bodies, cannot (or can but with great difficulty). Hormone regulation and its effects on our brain as just one of many ways our thinking can be unduly affected by a body. And that's to say nothing of psychosurgery! "Hey, I'm feeling bored with my friendship...listless, dunno why. I know the 'natural' course of things might be to fully feel this boredom and distance, subsequently to detach from them...but like I'm the 49th resleeve of someone I've seen footage of on Earth being superheated and melted into hot bioslag because they wanted to hold the line on Earth rather than make it to an egocaster. The 'natural impulse' isn't always the smartest." "Yeah, that's why I make the big rep altering brainstate data. The Jovian Republic fell in A.F. 57 in part because of neuro databases of baseline human brains. Every other polity knew the weak spots of unmodified brains and used that against the Jovian populace flawlessly, even as their own brains had been patched against those types of informatic neglect. Evolution doesn't have a neurosci, psychosurgery or comp sci background, and it shows in the janky jury-rigged way it applies patches, not to mention the excruciatingly long dev time. Jovians relied on on the most hostile, unfeeling and out of date psychosurgeons ever: environmental survival pressures from hundreds of thousands of years before they were born." "Yeah, the lesson my ancestor-forks learned over time from that was that the only smart decision our fleshancestor ever made was storing a backup before whipping up into a fatal homeland defense frenzy. So hey, since I just backed up and am ready for death, could you excise the useless stuff from my mind I'm 'naturally' feeling over time and enhance memories of shared joy and whatever? My friend's immediate mindancestor just had it done and said it feels like the high point of our friendship all over again, shot through with the fresher memories seen in a new light. You're better than their psychosurgeon, so maybe add some extra OOMPH to that drunk quicky our ancestors had at that scum party 30 years ago, bring out some subtle contours of that orgasm and maybe edit the shame so it feels like my cheeks were heated by shy passion, so it feels more like a fun fling than a drunken mistake." "Oooh, thinkin' of taking your relationship to the next level for the weekend?" "Nah nah, aim for more like a century. I'll come back in for tune-ups in a decade or so if it feels like it's flagging."