Invasion of the Humans

Sun, 2010-02-21 23:22

#52

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Decivre wrote:
What about those people who aren't comfortable in their original bodies? Where do their souls reside? Is it at all possible that mind, soul and emotion are, in fact, all one unified concept? Lastly, I think it should be noted that not everyone hates synthmorphs, nor does everyone feel uncomfortable with them. In fact, it seems implied that the attachment that most people have with biomorphs is more one of social acceptance, or something akin to refusing to ride in a car without a leather interior (because it "doesn't feel right"). It does not make synthmorphs "alien".

The groups that are most comfortable with synthmorphs (ie Barsoomians) are an extreme exception to the norm.

Decivre wrote:
Except that wouldn't really fit well with your theories on the concept of soul. Prior, you stated that a person's soul is tied to their original body, and cannot be transferred or copied... but this wouldn't explain why you can use psi in another body besides your original, or why an alpha fork is just as capable of using psi as the original ego. It also wouldn't explain why an AGI with the Watts-Macleod virus could theoretically use and learn psi abilities, since you seem to imply that AGI do not have souls.

I stated that psi abilities are connected to the mind (the part that is transferred between morphs) but uses a soul like a battery. This would be like taking a coloured bulb and installing it in different flashlights (ie morphs). The bulb will only glow if the flashlight has a battery in it to power the flashlight. The bulb (you mind) can fit into any flishlight though.

—

Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Thu, 2010-02-25 09:24

#53

Decivre

Re: Invasion of the Humans

TBRMInsanity wrote:
The groups that are most comfortable with synthmorphs (ie Barsoomians) are an extreme exception to the norm.

Whether they are the rarity or the norm is irrelevant. The question is how can you claim that the reason for someone being comfortable in a body is because of the presence of a soul, when some people can be comfortable in bodies you have deemed soulless? That said, synthmorphs (and the people who are comfortable in them) are by no means a "rarity", at least by any definable number. They are a minority. Nowhere are we given a specific statistic detailing the ratio of people who disdain synthmorphs versus those who don't, nor are we given any specific statistic on how many prefer biomorphs over those who prefer synthmorphs or are fine with either. We know it's less than 50% of the human population, and a large portion is consistent with the Jovian Junta; that's about it. Lastly, the common disdain for synthmorphs isn't always about it "not feeling right". In fact, the largest reason why people seem to avoid synthmorphs seems to be its association with the poor. I doubt we're arguing that poor people are soulless.

TBRMInsanity wrote:
I stated that psi abilities are connected to the mind (the part that is transferred between morphs) but uses a soul like a battery. This would be like taking a coloured bulb and installing it in different flashlights (ie morphs). The bulb will only glow if the flashlight has a battery in it to power the flashlight. The bulb (you mind) can fit into any flishlight though.

But again, unless you are stating that cloned bodies (and, for the most part, that any and all organic bodies that can host an ego, no matter the origin) have souls, we still run into the issue of any biomorph being a valid host for Psi abilities. The biggest reason I question all of this is because your theory implies the mind and soul as separable entities. Most people of faith believe the mind and soul to be one thing, the soul being the form of the mind which transverses to the afterlife upon a person's death. Your theory claims them to be individual aspects, which can easily be transferred from one person to another simply by means of switching bodies. Moreover, this brings up all sorts of other bizarre oddities, like the previously mentioned cloned bodies.

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Thu, 2010-02-25 12:02

#54

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Decivre wrote:
Whether they are the rarity or the norm is irrelevant. The question is how can you claim that the reason for someone being comfortable in a body is because of the presence of a soul, when some people can be comfortable in bodies you have deemed soulless? That said, synthmorphs (and the people who are comfortable in them) are by no means a "rarity", at least by any definable number. They are a minority. Nowhere are we given a specific statistic detailing the ratio of people who disdain synthmorphs versus those who don't, nor are we given any specific statistic on how many prefer biomorphs over those who prefer synthmorphs or are fine with either. We know it's less than 50% of the human population, and a large portion is consistent with the Jovian Junta; that's about it. Lastly, the common disdain for synthmorphs isn't always about it "not feeling right". In fact, the largest reason why people seem to avoid synthmorphs seems to be its association with the poor. I doubt we're arguing that poor people are soulless.

Your right I'm not arguing that poor people are soulless (just synthmorphs, and possibly pods). Again I would like to point out that these are just my opinions, and not the opinions of CGL, and they have no credible evidence from the EP universe, it is just how I view certain things in the EP universe. Your allowed to run your games how you want and explain synthmorph and pod prejudges how you like. This is my explanation and it works for me.

Decivre wrote:
But again, unless you are stating that cloned bodies (and, for the most part, that any and all organic bodies that can host an ego, no matter the origin) have souls, we still run into the issue of any biomorph being a valid host for Psi abilities. The biggest reason I question all of this is because your theory implies the mind and soul as separable entities. Most people of faith believe the mind and soul to be one thing, the soul being the form of the mind which transverses to the afterlife upon a person's death. Your theory claims them to be individual aspects, which can easily be transferred from one person to another simply by means of switching bodies. Moreover, this brings up all sorts of other bizarre oddities, like the previously mentioned cloned bodies.

I do think that cloned bodies have a soul, and in fact any biological entity has a soul (this is why I'm on the fence on weather a pod has a soul or not (would love to hear people's opinion on the matter)). I also believe that (as stated above) the body, mind, soul, and emotions are all separate entities that make up an individual (like the different parts of a flashlight). I further believe that it is possible that an individual can lack an entity and still exist (example Infomorphs don't have a body, soul, or emotions. Ghosts don't have a body or mind. Robots don't have a soul or emotions. Etc.). Since the soul and mind are separate entities you can transfer psi abilities from one morph to another (you just need a soul to power those abilities).

—

Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Thu, 2010-02-25 15:23

#55

nick012000 nick012000's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Umm, unless a synthmorph or infomorph has had some pretty extreme psychosurgery done to it, they'll still have emotions. They are based on human brain templates, after all.

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Fri, 2010-02-26 00:57

#56

Decivre

Re: Invasion of the Humans

TBRMInsanity wrote:
Your right I'm not arguing that poor people are soulless (just synthmorphs, and possibly pods). Again I would like to point out that these are just my opinions, and not the opinions of CGL, and they have no credible evidence from the EP universe, it is just how I view certain things in the EP universe. Your allowed to run your games how you want and explain synthmorph and pod prejudges how you like. This is my explanation and it works for me.

I hope I did not sound aggressive with that last post. I was not trying to imply that you were making that argument or that your ideas were "wrong", in any sense. I'm just trying to send various scenarios and issues so the responses will give me a better idea of what your stance is and better define it for my understanding.

TBRMInsanity wrote:
I do think that cloned bodies have a soul, and in fact any biological entity has a soul (this is why I'm on the fence on weather a pod has a soul or not (would love to hear people's opinion on the matter)). I also believe that (as stated above) the body, mind, soul, and emotions are all separate entities that make up an individual (like the different parts of a flashlight). I further believe that it is possible that an individual can lack an entity and still exist (example Infomorphs don't have a body, soul, or emotions. Ghosts don't have a body or mind. Robots don't have a soul or emotions. Etc.). Since the soul and mind are separate entities you can transfer psi abilities from one morph to another (you just need a soul to power those abilities).

However, infomorphs are fully capable of feeling and (virtually) expressing their emotions. The same is true for egos sleeved in a synthmorph. They are both emotional beings, just as they would be in a biomorph body. In what way are they missing that aspect?

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Fri, 2010-02-26 08:14

#57

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Decivre wrote:
TBRMInsanity wrote:
Your right I'm not arguing that poor people are soulless (just synthmorphs, and possibly pods). Again I would like to point out that these are just my opinions, and not the opinions of CGL, and they have no credible evidence from the EP universe, it is just how I view certain things in the EP universe. Your allowed to run your games how you want and explain synthmorph and pod prejudges how you like. This is my explanation and it works for me.
I hope I did not sound aggressive with that last post. I was not trying to imply that you were making that argument or that your ideas were "wrong", in any sense. I'm just trying to send various scenarios and issues so the responses will give me a better idea of what your stance is and better define it for my understanding.
TBRMInsanity wrote:
I do think that cloned bodies have a soul, and in fact any biological entity has a soul (this is why I'm on the fence on weather a pod has a soul or not (would love to hear people's opinion on the matter)). I also believe that (as stated above) the body, mind, soul, and emotions are all separate entities that make up an individual (like the different parts of a flashlight). I further believe that it is possible that an individual can lack an entity and still exist (example Infomorphs don't have a body, soul, or emotions. Ghosts don't have a body or mind. Robots don't have a soul or emotions. Etc.). Since the soul and mind are separate entities you can transfer psi abilities from one morph to another (you just need a soul to power those abilities).
However, infomorphs are fully capable of feeling and (virtually) expressing their emotions. The same is true for egos sleeved in a synthmorph. They are both emotional beings, just as they would be in a biomorph body. In what way are they missing that aspect?

In that point you are true.

—

Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Sat, 2010-03-27 13:28

#58

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Quote:
My answer (shortly prior to vaporisation) would be "I'll accept that Jupiter is a Jovian Republic resource when you send one of your unmodified flats down to the surface and erect a flag."

Their unmodified flats, on the surface of Jupiter would really be that; Flat! Eywa knows how many atmospheres there is down there, pressure wise! And don't forget the heat generated by the radiations! if you though the walking on Venus in Defying Gravity was rough, it's nothing compaired to what Jupiter would be like! the tax for orbiting is a nice touch, though

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Tue, 2010-03-30 20:40

#59

nick012000 nick012000's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Quincey Forder wrote:
Quote:
My answer (shortly prior to vaporisation) would be "I'll accept that Jupiter is a Jovian Republic resource when you send one of your unmodified flats down to the surface and erect a flag."
Their unmodified flats, on the surface of Jupiter would really be that; Flat! Eywa knows how many atmospheres there is down there, pressure wise! And don't forget the heat generated by the radiations! if you though the walking on Venus in Defying Gravity was rough, it's nothing compaired to what Jupiter would be like! the tax for orbiting is a nice touch, though

Jupiter doesn't have a surface to walk on to begin with. It's probably just increasingly dense gasses all the way down.

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Tue, 2010-03-30 21:41

#60

UpliftedOctopi UpliftedOctopi's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

There may not be an actual surface but there would be a point, theoretically, where humans could at least swim (or something similar).

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Wed, 2010-03-31 10:01

#61

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

UpliftedOctopi wrote:
There may not be an actual surface but there would be a point, theoretically, where humans could at least swim (or something similar).

Given the appropriate synthetic morph, could it be possible to create floating cities on Jupiter (like those seen on Venus) or is there no way to float the cities in the first place?

—

Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Wed, 2010-03-31 15:12

#62

UpliftedOctopi UpliftedOctopi's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

To my limited understanding of the matter, while there are certain considerations that must be made (local toxicity, pressure considerations, navigation), in the Eclipse Phase world tech seems to be at a point where we could do such things. As a simple model, imagine an aerostat (proof of concept at least) except with airlocks on the external doors, in order to retain breathable air (or compensate for this with morphs), and with strictly maintained buoyancy (a ballast system?) in order to ensure the hab doesn't raise or fall too much. You get the idea, man we get off topic in a fierce way...

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Thu, 2010-04-01 01:43

#63

Decivre

Re: Invasion of the Humans

The problem with creating habitats at Jupiter itself is not quite the same as with habitats on Venus. Venus has a fairly stable weather system, with little variation occurring despite it's ridiculous levels of heat and extremely hostile conditions. On the other hand, Jupiter has very tempestuous weather systems, that dwarf even the worst storms on earth. Imagine hurricanes that are 8 times the size of earth, with winds blowing at thousands of miles per hour. Imagine lightning storms that send electric bolts across the entire planetside because the atmosphere is extremely conductive. The only other solar body with an atmosphere as hectic is the sun itself. Granted, a similar trick could be used in colonizing Jupiter as has been used in colonizing the sun. Habitats could be placed in the poles, where the weather is relatively far more calm. Moreover, advanced warning systems could be produced for warning people in other parts of the planet when weather conditions will worsen.

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Fri, 2010-04-02 04:48

#64

nick012000 nick012000's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Actually, the thing you have to watch out for in storms is wind shear. Thunderstorms are actually much more dangerous than hurricanes as a result; one moment you can be in an updraft that's going up at 5,000 feet per minute and then hit a downdraft that's going down at 5,000 feet per minute, and the sudden change can shear your wings off. Hurricanes, on the other hand, just have turbulence that will bounce you around inside the plane unless you strap yourself down; the only differences between the ordinary C-130s the US military flies their stuff around in, and the WC-130s they fly into hurricanes is that they converted the cargo hold to hold a bunch of scientific equipment. If I remember correctly, while Jupiter has gigantic storms, the actual conditions in the storms don't change much; they're fairly stable, as is evidenced by the Great Red Spot sitting there for a hundred years. Its atmosphere is actually less turbulent than that of Earth, IIRC.

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Fri, 2010-04-02 06:22

#65

Decivre

Re: Invasion of the Humans

nick012000 wrote:
Actually, the thing you have to watch out for in storms is wind shear. Thunderstorms are actually much more dangerous than hurricanes as a result; one moment you can be in an updraft that's going up at 5,000 feet per minute and then hit a downdraft that's going down at 5,000 feet per minute, and the sudden change can shear your wings off. Hurricanes, on the other hand, just have turbulence that will bounce you around inside the plane unless you strap yourself down; the only differences between the ordinary C-130s the US military flies their stuff around in, and the WC-130s they fly into hurricanes is that they converted the cargo hold to hold a bunch of scientific equipment. If I remember correctly, while Jupiter has gigantic storms, the actual conditions in the storms don't change much; they're fairly stable, as is evidenced by the Great Red Spot sitting there for a hundred years. Its atmosphere is actually less turbulent than that of Earth, IIRC.

I disagree. Case in point: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wind_speeds_on_Jupiter.png]a graph showing the recorded wind speeds on Jupiter in meters per second[/url]. Average windspeed on that graph is around 25 mph towards the poles, and the belt is right near a whopping 300 mph (negative values are anticyclonic). The red spot stays at about the same spot in latitude, but constantly moves longitudinally, and is constantly swirling. That said, it has been decreasing since we have started observing it, so it may be dying off (most estimates state that it may be gone in 300 years or so, but it may also be a fluxuating storm pattern). Read more about it [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Jupiter]here[/url]. Jupiter has a very turbulent atmosphere, likely only rivaled by the sun itself. That said, we've definitely colonized the latter, so it's likely we could colonize the former.

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Sat, 2010-04-03 03:46

#66

nick012000 nick012000's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Yes, but it's not the [i]average[/i] wind speed that kills you. It's the wind shear. C-130s can fly just fine through hurricanes with 130 knot winds, but thunderstorms have wind speeds about half of that and attempting to fly through them is basically suicide. My understanding is that while Jupiter does have very high wind speeds, the winds have very little variation in any one place.

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Sat, 2010-05-29 04:55

#67

splatter_gecko splatter_gecko's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

I agree with TBRMInsanity and Wayfinder. (Trans)humans have no souls.

Sat, 2010-05-29 05:03

#68

Decivre

Re: Invasion of the Humans

splatter_gecko wrote:
I agree with TBRMInsanity and Wayfinder. (Trans)humans have no souls.

I agree. Of course, I don't believe in the concept of a soul to begin with. Well, I do believe in "soul"... but only in the same context as I believe in "jazz". I think it interesting to note that the terms "ghost" and "soul" are both used synonymously with "ego" in the world of Eclipse Phase. Apparently, even in such a world, people have not only clung to their old beliefs... but adapted them to the times, as we often do today. I'd imagine that philosophical arguments about what a soul is and whether people continue to have them after resleeving may continue even by that time.

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Sat, 2010-05-29 08:18

#69

splatter_gecko splatter_gecko's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Dry attempts at humor aside;

TBRMInsanity wrote:
Iv wrote:
Waitamoment. Infomorphs don't have souls ? How come ? A synthetic morph wouldn't have one then ? Basically it is just an informorph driving a vehicle... What about pods ?
No I don't think that synths have souls, as their body doesn't contain life and the anchor needed for a soul to interact with it. Pods are a grey area, they are part biological, but they are also twisted abominations of God (in a way) and as such would be a weak anchor for a soul. Infomorphs are just the mind (no body, soul or emotions, just thought) which is why they are the most alien existence for people to be in.

This belief would be extremely dangerous to a wide variety of sentient beings in the EP universe. It could conceivably be used to justify any given atrocity against intelligences contained in non-biological mediums; they're just soulless automatons, right? Mental constructs like this are often used to present a subjective dislike of something, in this case synthetics, as if it were an objective aspect of the universe. Christianity has been used for this exact purpose against a wide array of minorities at various points in time. I enthusiastically support your right to believe in whatever you can imagine ( I prefer anthropomorphic pangolin) and I understand that you've in no way suggested that soulless beings should be treated poorly, but it's important to remember that all beliefs are basically mental tools. An individual such as yourself might use this concept to make sense of the universe, a state or religious organization could use it to reclassify millions of (imaginary) sentient beings as second class citizens or worse.

Sat, 2010-05-29 09:24

#70

Decivre

Re: Invasion of the Humans

splatter_gecko wrote:
This belief would be extremely dangerous to a wide variety of sentient beings in the EP universe. It could conceivably be used to justify any given atrocity against intelligences contained in non-biological mediums; they're just soulless automatons, right? Mental constructs like this are often used to present a subjective dislike of something, in this case synthetics, as if it were an objective aspect of the universe. Christianity has been used for this exact purpose against a wide array of minorities at various points in time. I enthusiastically support your right to believe in whatever you can imagine ( I prefer anthropomorphic pangolin) and I understand that you've in no way suggested that soulless beings should be treated poorly, but it's important to remember that all beliefs are basically mental tools. An individual such as yourself might use this concept to make sense of the universe, a state or religious organization could use it to reclassify millions of (imaginary) sentient beings as second class citizens or worse.

I can see it fueling a large amount of the divide that might exist between various degrees of bioconservative groups and more liberal sensibilities. Spiritual groups completely averse to resleeving and the implications of digital uploading may abhor any and all utilization of resleeving, cortical stacks, forking and other such concepts. To them, any transition from one's original body means the death of the original being and soul. More liberal, yet still conservative religious groups may be less so... thinking perhaps that rather than tying the soul to the body, the soul is tied to the sense of continuity. To them, so long as you are awake and lucid during the entire resleeving process, your soul carries with you. They may refuse to ego-cast long distances for fear of losing the soul. A third group of liberal spiritualists may be far more accepting... embracing the idea that the soul and mind can shift from one body to another. I see neo-Buddhists being of this sort... seeing cortical stacks as a means of controlling reincarnation, and forks as a way to live in multiple incarnations at the same time, allowing someone to speed their path to enlightenment. In the end though, philosophy and spirituality are both personal affairs. I agree that it's a shame when people use such things as justification for the mistreatment for others, but it's a part of the human condition that I doubt will go away in our lifetimes... and I doubt has even come close to disappearing within the transhuman future of Eclipse Phase.

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Sat, 2010-05-29 17:05

#71

Thunderwave Thunderwave's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Yogo Ted wrote:
It may also be philosophical. Certain philosophies postulate a separate soul without a higher power involved. Of course, to say "philosophically", of "theologically" in either way is too broad to be really correct, since there are too many philosophies and theologies to cover. Personally, the idea of uploading is frightening to me. Continuity of self is everything to me. If you make a copy of my brain and put it in a different body, does the me currently experiencing cease to exist? I know that the new body will believe that the transition is seamless, but how could it tell if it's an exact replica? It's just a little scary to me.

...am I the only one that had the idea to kill someone in EP, pop their stack, and steal it. Wait for his insurance to cover a resleeve off a back-up, then kill that one too, also stealing the stack. Get like eight of this poor suckers stacks piled up, hook them all up to a virtual reality setting and let them talk amongst themselves. Which one of the eight is the real him...or none of them as #9 got resleeved and is now walking around, blissfully unaware of the other eight of him you have in your closet?

Sun, 2010-05-30 22:37

#72

nick012000 nick012000's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Thunderwave wrote:
Yogo Ted wrote:
It may also be philosophical. Certain philosophies postulate a separate soul without a higher power involved. Of course, to say "philosophically", of "theologically" in either way is too broad to be really correct, since there are too many philosophies and theologies to cover. Personally, the idea of uploading is frightening to me. Continuity of self is everything to me. If you make a copy of my brain and put it in a different body, does the me currently experiencing cease to exist? I know that the new body will believe that the transition is seamless, but how could it tell if it's an exact replica? It's just a little scary to me.
...am I the only one that had the idea to kill someone in EP, pop their stack, and steal it. Wait for his insurance to cover a resleeve off a back-up, then kill that one too, also stealing the stack. Get like eight of this poor suckers stacks piled up, hook them all up to a virtual reality setting and let them talk amongst themselves. Which one of the eight is the real him...or none of them as #9 got resleeved and is now walking around, blissfully unaware of the other eight of him you have in your closet?

That's egonapping, the sort of thing that gets you hunted down and killed, with all your backups and forks being hunted down and destroyed as well.

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Sun, 2010-05-30 22:51

#73

Thunderwave Thunderwave's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

nick012000 wrote:
Thunderwave wrote:
Yogo Ted wrote:
It may also be philosophical. Certain philosophies postulate a separate soul without a higher power involved. Of course, to say "philosophically", of "theologically" in either way is too broad to be really correct, since there are too many philosophies and theologies to cover. Personally, the idea of uploading is frightening to me. Continuity of self is everything to me. If you make a copy of my brain and put it in a different body, does the me currently experiencing cease to exist? I know that the new body will believe that the transition is seamless, but how could it tell if it's an exact replica? It's just a little scary to me.
...am I the only one that had the idea to kill someone in EP, pop their stack, and steal it. Wait for his insurance to cover a resleeve off a back-up, then kill that one too, also stealing the stack. Get like eight of this poor suckers stacks piled up, hook them all up to a virtual reality setting and let them talk amongst themselves. Which one of the eight is the real him...or none of them as #9 got resleeved and is now walking around, blissfully unaware of the other eight of him you have in your closet?
That's egonapping, the sort of thing that gets you hunted down and killed, with all your backups and forks being hunted down and destroyed as well.

I never said the person doing this was a good one, did I? ;) Plus you've got to catch him. Might be a good plot thread for someone wanting to explore this very idea. However my question still goes unanswered. ^_^ Which one is the "real" him?

Mon, 2010-05-31 10:26

#74

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

nick012000 wrote:
That's egonapping, the sort of thing that gets you hunted down and killed, with all your backups and forks being hunted down and destroyed as well.

that is because it is effectively the same thing as a mass murder today. I always laugh at the fact that in EP, killing someone is the same as smashing up their car today. There are steep fines, you may do some jail time, but it isn't the horrible crime it use to be. Actual murder (killing the morph and then wiping out all the backed up egos as well) is seen as worse then 1st degree murder today. I guess losing 90% of the human population will do that to society.

—

Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Mon, 2010-05-31 14:37

#75

Decivre

Re: Invasion of the Humans

TBRMInsanity wrote:
that is because it is effectively the same thing as a mass murder today. I always laugh at the fact that in EP, killing someone is the same as smashing up their car today. There are steep fines, you may do some jail time, but it isn't the horrible crime it use to be. Actual murder (killing the morph and then wiping out all the backed up egos as well) is seen as worse then 1st degree murder today. I guess losing 90% of the human population will do that to society.

Actually, it may depend on the circumstances. Murder might be a less grievous crime if the person has backup insurance, but what about if a person doesn't? What if the body you smashed was their original body, and not just some new resleeve? What if they don't even have a cortical stack? They will likely have far more degrees of murder than we have today, just for such issues. In fact, a number of crimes will not just change face in such a world, but be created whole-cloth from the new possibilities that might exist. Psychosurgery and psi makes literal mindrape a real possibility, and I have no doubt that it will count as a crime. Shutting down a computer with an infomorph running on it without consent isn't quite murder, yet would probably be serious enough to be classified a crime. Any number of other new crimes involving egos could exist.

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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Mon, 2010-05-31 14:55

#76

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Decivre wrote:
Actually, it may depend on the circumstances. Murder might be a less grievous crime if the person has backup insurance, but what about if a person doesn't? What if the body you smashed was their original body, and not just some new resleeve? What if they don't even have a cortical stack? They will likely have far more degrees of murder than we have today, just for such issues. In fact, a number of crimes will not just change face in such a world, but be created whole-cloth from the new possibilities that might exist. Psychosurgery and psi makes literal mindrape a real possibility, and I have no doubt that it will count as a crime. Shutting down a computer with an infomorph running on it without consent isn't quite murder, yet would probably be serious enough to be classified a crime. Any number of other new crimes involving egos could exist.

Agreed. It also opens up a new wide range of opportunities for GMs in their games. In once hab it may be legal to "kill" someone (in fact they may have gladiatorial arenas as a form of entertainment). Someone from that hab may kill a morph in another hab because they just didn't like what they said, and as a result be sent jail for something they thought was legal.

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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Mon, 2010-05-31 16:53

#77

Decivre

Re: Invasion of the Humans

TBRMInsanity wrote:
Agreed. It also opens up a new wide range of opportunities for GMs in their games. In once hab it may be legal to "kill" someone (in fact they may have gladiatorial arenas as a form of entertainment). Someone from that hab may kill a morph in another hab because they just didn't like what they said, and as a result be sent jail for something they thought was legal.

I don't know about that. Even if there was a hab where murder was perfectly legal, most people will have a basic understanding of fundamental laws that most cultures abide by. Besides, knowing the laws of any given habitat is likely very easy thanks to the mesh. You can get a primer on local laws and customs while your craft is docking, as well as any other pertinent information that you might need to know.

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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Tue, 2010-06-01 04:54

#78

nick012000 nick012000's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

TBRMInsanity wrote:
nick012000 wrote:
That's egonapping, the sort of thing that gets you hunted down and killed, with all your backups and forks being hunted down and destroyed as well.
that is because it is effectively the same thing as a mass murder today. I always laugh at the fact that in EP, killing someone is the same as smashing up their car today. There are steep fines, you may do some jail time, but it isn't the horrible crime it use to be. Actual murder (killing the morph and then wiping out all the backed up egos as well) is seen as worse then 1st degree murder today. I guess losing 90% of the human population will do that to society.

Except that that's listed as the accepted punishment for egonapping in the corebook, along with things like making Seed AIs and deliberately unleashing the Exsurgent Virus. It's not murder, it's execution.

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+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

Wed, 2010-07-07 17:06

#79

Saerain

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Interestingly, the modern state of quantum theory doesn't allow for any consciousness to die: there is always a possible series of events in which a consciousness survives, and it is only possible for the experiential continuity to follow that path. Even if that means that, by the end of the universe, every consciousness is experiencing itself as the only remaining consciousness. Not because there's anything special about a consciousness, but because the number of possible universes/timelines (the two terms are interchangeable, really) is unfathomably huge and it is only possible for a thing to exist where it is possible for it to exist and nowhere else. By similar principles, in the context of [i]Eclipse Phase[/i], continuity of consciousness would be possible through egocasts so long as the quantum state on arrival is identical to its state on departure, and so long as one is not assembled before the other is fully disassembled. Backups would be tricky for this reason. You can't have two identical objects with fully identical quantum states at once, but are backups are probably encrypted and compressed in storage, only assembled to a conscious state when brought out of storage (presumably when the source ego has died), and this falls into the 'all possible universes' framework for continuity of consciousness. This backup survives, therefore this backup, if properly assembled to the quantum state that was originally recorded, continues the continuity—the dead ego is a fake precisely [i]because[/i] it is dead. Comprehensible?

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Wed, 2010-07-07 18:36

#80

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture

Re: Invasion of the Humans

Saerain wrote:
Interestingly, the modern state of quantum theory doesn't allow for any consciousness to die: there is always a possible series of events in which a consciousness survives, and it is only possible for the experiential continuity to follow that path. Even if that means that, by the end of the universe, every consciousness is experiencing itself as the only remaining consciousness. Not because there's anything special about a consciousness, but because the number of possible universes/timelines (the two terms are interchangeable, really) is unfathomably huge and it is only possible for a thing to exist where it is possible for it to exist and nowhere else. By similar principles, in the context of [i]Eclipse Phase[/i], continuity of consciousness would be possible through egocasts so long as the quantum state on arrival is identical to its state on departure, and so long as one is not assembled before the other is fully disassembled. Backups would be tricky for this reason. You can't have two identical objects with fully identical quantum states at once, but are backups are probably encrypted and compressed in storage, only assembled to a conscious state when brought out of storage (presumably when the source ego has died), and this falls into the 'all possible universes' framework for continuity of consciousness. This backup survives, therefore this backup, if properly assembled to the quantum state that was originally recorded, continues the continuity—the dead ego is a fake precisely [i]because[/i] it is dead. Comprehensible?

I would rather think of a Backup as being a snapshot of a pattern as it changes along time. As such the second the Backup is captured, the conciseness is different from the Backup and as such there aren't two objects that are exactly the same. Each second your existence is changing (changes may be slight and inconsequential) and you are never the same person you were a nanosecond ago.

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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Thu, 2010-07-08 16:51

#81

Saerain

Re: Invasion of the Humans

I didn't intentionally imply otherwise. I see that last paragraph was muddled, though.

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[img]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5730951/Images/Userbars/Eclipse%20Phase/FallEvac...

Fri, 2013-03-15 02:54

#82

jhfurnish

Souls, Bhuddism, Survival

Haxar wrote:
If you find the whole idea depressing, think a bit more about what merging is about : getting back all the memories of a forked copy, exactly like you had lived two lives for a few hours. That can comfort someone that believes that the continuity of the ego is important.

You could always go the Bhuddist route that everyone goes back into a big spiritual 'database'. Think the changelings from ST:DS9, like Odo, living in a big ocean of consciousness, but entirely metaphysical. As the Bhuddists say, no 'you', no 'me'. Therefore no real 'death'.

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jhfurnish@gmail.com

Sat, 2013-03-23 10:40

#83

Chase-san

I had the initial notion at

I had the initial notion at first as well. Well not the "soul" bit. But the, that person who is over there isn't the same person that was over here, and that by changing bodies you have effectively committed suicide. You just happen to have a rather active postmortem. I solved this issue with the dual body problem. ---- Say an exact copy of your brain was made in another body. Then you were linked to that brain so that both brains shared the same electrical impulses, one electric spark across the synapses the same as the other. You effectively get sensory input from both bodies. Now this would probably be very confusing at first. But eventually you go about your dual bodied life. You're not dead, you still have your original body, and you have another body to boot. Now what if that other body died would you be dead? No, obviously not, you still have your original body. But what if your original body died instead, are you suddenly dead? In spite being fully conscious and aware and fully in control of the second body still? Is it that because your original body died you are now dead? Did you perhaps die the moment you gain control of the second body as well as your first? In this situation, I would likely say no, I am not dead. I never died. One of my bodies died, by I myself did not. ---- Now what if someone made an exact copy of my brain and put it in another body. But then it was not linked. They think they are me, but are obviously are not. However at the same time, they are me. They know everything I know, they have the same feelings and the same responses. Now what if I was that other me, suddenly I wake up in some other body and see my original self. What is my reaction? Well I am me, I know that I am me, that other person looks like me, but I am pretty darn sure I am myself, despite this body not being my own. But at the same time, that original of myself is also myself. Sure we don't share the same senses anymore, but we can probably tell what the other is thinking without it. I wouldn't consider myself dead just because my original self is over there now. Though I would be a bit distressed at the situation. I am suddenly in another body after all. While very interesting, I know that myself is not my original self despite the fact that I am fully aware of the fact that I am myself. Are you dead? I would have to say, no. I am not dead. Myself is right over there. Obviously not dead. What about 'MYSELF'? Am I dead. No, I am fully aware of myself. Sure I may not be my original self, but that doesn't mean I am dead, does it? Perhaps it does philosophically, but you probably won't accept that answer. This is where the problem of adjusting to a morph comes in, it isn't just the change of appearance that causes the problem, its the full and complete understanding that you are no longer you. ---- Now lets combine the two scenarios. Lets say an exact copy of your brain was made and was linked like before. You go about your business for some time. But at one point while in the same room with your original self, the link suddenly ceases. You are suddenly in two places. Which one of you is the real you? How can you be sure? Surely it's the original you... right? You can't be sure, it would be a rather sudden change. You are both the real you. You both have continuity of self. Neither you is dead, but you are no longer the same person. However both are just as you as the other. Philosophically, is that other person dead? Maybe, but you can't be entirely sure. ---- In the end, aside from a headache, you also come to the conclusion that, while they may not be you, they are you, and there is no getting around that. If suddenly you are in one body, and then in the other, you are still you. You just are a little disturbed by the transition.

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