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resleeving and prometheans

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jasonbrisbane jasonbrisbane's picture
resleeving and prometheans
Hello, I couldnt find a post so Im asking here: Could a Promethean sleeve into a cyberbrain? If it is superintelligent, then how much intelligence is too much for a cyber brain to handle? Couldn't it re-write a cyberbrain code to fir a much larger brain (ie woven through the spinal cortex, or into the thorax/abdomen etc to house its extensive knowledge? I was toying with a promethean that's resleeved ito a neotenic pod with a "toy doll" thats actually a cyberbrain extension (wireless connected, since even emp would make it pause for a round at most whilst the connection is reestablished) - but what cruel bast**d would emp a child with a cyberbrain??? With Modern (our ties) technology, large rooms of supercomputers would be needed to emulate the capacity and power of a promethean, but then the future has such power to miniaturise tech, etc... So at what point would intelligence be too much for a single cyberbrain to handle? Would Steven Hawkings brain with its ability to decode the mysteries of the universe be too much for it to handle? So why not a promethean? Your thoughts would be appreciated in order to understand any flaws in my logic.... (of course as GM I might just give GM fiat and say it happens anyway, but Id like arguemtns for and against too). Thanks.
Regards, Jason Brisbane
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
I think in-universe, to house
I think in-universe, to house an ASI like the Prometheans (or their unfriendly cousins, the TITANs), it is required to have a large supercomputer facility. Cyberbrains, which are about as powerful hardware-wise, as meat brains, cannot handle an ASI fully, only pruned down versions.
Quote:
but what cruel bast**d would emp a child with a cyberbrain???
Why wouldn't you use an EMP effect on a child with a cyberbrain? EMP harms electronics in the EP universe as badly as biological parts, everything is shielded. Also with neotenic morphs, every "child" could be a murderous assassin or deadly hacker, so only a pre-Fall flat might make that assumption that the child-like form before them is totally just a child. If we are talking ASI, it is entirely possible that the morph only looks like a Neotenic, and that where a Cyberbrain ought to be, there is some TITAN-tech (or non-TITAN equivalent) computronium that allows a full ASI to sleeve into the form, though that sort of defies the expectation of ASI as existing in non-embodied forms in order to maximize their potential, but having a fork of one sleeved in aforementioned super-cyberbrained-neotenic to interact with the transhuman puppets could work.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
R.O.S.S.-128 R.O.S.S.-128's picture
A Literal Interpretation
RAW, since your "smartness" is measured by your COG score and INT score, I'd say the smartest a given cyberbrain can handle is given by the aptitude maximum for the morph it is installed in (for some reason or other, probably available headspace in most cases, the morph puts limits on how powerful a cyberbrain you can put in there.) One thing to consider is the "Promethean Fork" entry on page 171 of the Firewall book. A "pale imitation" of a Promethean, an effective delta fork for them, has COG, INT, and WIL at 40. Which is the highest any aptitude can go in the game. So not only are our cyberbrains incapable of processing a full Promethean, the Eclipse Phase ruleset can't handle it either. Of course, a funny thing about them being so smart that the rules can't handle them, they're also so smart that they can say "screw the rules I'm a god". You still wouldn't be able to give them any stats that make sense to the system, but that should be okay as long as they never do anything that would require having stats (which they shouldn't because RPGs tend to either get silly or quite boring for the PCs once a god starts throwing their weight around). As far as Stephen Hawking goes, yeah I'm sure a cyberbrain can handle him. Remember that 10 is the (modern, unmodified) human average for any aptitude. This lends itself easily to comparison to the IQ test, where 10 COG would be like scoring 100 (because the IQ test is, ideally, calibrated so that 100 is human average). So that would make COG 15 like having an IQ of 150, and COG 40 like having an IQ of 400 (though I think the comparison breaks down there, does the test even go that high?). So as you can probably see, there's some real brainiacs walking around in the world of Eclipse Phase. Which isn't too surprising when you consider that you can literally buy smarts in this setting. For twelve easy payments of 999.99Cr*, you too can unravel the secrets of the universe! *Plus shipping and handling depending on your location. Taxes and additional fees may apply. Visit our mesh node for details.
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ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Any ASI, Titan or Promethian
Any ASI, Titan or Promethian level, sleeved into a transhuman mind, would be both a galaxy-class mind by transhuman standards, and most likely crippled with depression and anxiety because they remember how much they lost. To us, they'd be a supergenius merging of Einstein and Hawking, and if they have SAV 40 as well, probably Bill Nye. To them, they feel like they've just gone twelve rounds playing rope-a-dope with a Daitya and said Daiyta's blows landing exclusively on their dome. Also, they have to deal with all these fucking hormones and sensations and shit. It would probably be a toss-up how they'd cope at any given point.They might slip into a deep depressive funk, or spend hours at a time massaging their own feet exploring the novel sensations, or try to make a basilisk hack with oil paints just to see if they can, or just spend hours rocking back and forth and reciting prime digits or pi to see how far they can remember.
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ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
to put it into a relative
to put it into a relative comparison a fork capable of working ina cyber brain or meat brain would be in the gamma or epsilon grade for a normal transhuman, aka backwash.
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
You'd probably need at least
You'd probably need at least a billion conventional cyberbrains to run a Promethean. Eclipse Phase has nanorod-logic computers, which allow for really crazy computational density. The largest fragment of TITAN mainframe from the Glory adventure (built pre-infection, so human tech), was a meter long, would have between 70 and 700 billion humans worth of computational power depending on its other dimensions. One liter of nanorod-logic computer is roughly 7 billion human's worth of computation power. That said, Eclipse Phase computers are probably not quite that ideally efficient, or emulating humans is very hard, otherwise every infugee could be run in a bowling ball sized computer. The point is, Prometheans, TITANs, Sybils, and other ASIs are going to require computers about the size of modern server racks at a minimum, and can trivially outthink all combined transhumans. Things are very miniaturized, but ASIs also require really large computers, because a matured ASI should operate somewhere in the (high) zetta- to yotta- FLOP range. A cyberbrain most likely operates somewhere in the Exaflop range for reference.
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
iirc glory or the core book
iirc glory or the core book directly stated or implied that an entire titan (pre infection) could be run on a cpu block the size of a loaf of bread
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
I believe that Panopticon
I believe that Panopticon says that you can base an ASI level intelligence out of in the range of ~100 of the Habitat Quantum servers, which is why most Post-Fall clusters are in groups of just ~10. I'd have to cross reference between Panopticon and Transhuman to see if the numbers are more sure, but that's easily tens or hundreds of thousands of Egos running in ideal, possibly enhanced conditions. Somewhat related though, you can technically run an infugee in something the size of a credit card, in that you can "run" an Ego on an Ecto. However, this comes with pretty hefty aptitude and speed caps and could easily lead to an over-loaded device. The performance drop for a normal transhuman used to operating digitally would be pretty bad, probably comparable to how a Promethean might feel about being crammed into an aptitude max of 40 and maximum speed of 4. This is probably why Firewall presents "Promethean Agents" as just as common. Instead of literally hacking off a piece of your own mind and compressing it down to work on the transhuman level, you just template yourself down into a Generalized-level intelligence and mass produce those guys as a different "generation" from you. EDIT: In regards to the "bread box" idea, if I'm remembering that right it's talking about minimum physical size for the "seed" aspect of a Seed AI. You can carry a portable device which will run the AI in minimum conditions, from which is can expand into new iterations on more hardware. What makes Seed AI scary is how they can bootstrap and grow exponentially and rapidly if you just give them more quality hardware to work with. DOUBLE EDIT: Though, in an even scarier point, compare a "loaf of bread" in terms of volume to an Ecto - and minimum space for an ASI is still the equivalent space for dozens if not tens of dozens of transhuman minds.
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Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
Panopticon, somewhat
Panopticon, somewhat ambiguously, says that a 100 quantum computer core can host a seed AGI, which may or may not be an ASI. I'd guess it would be enough to create the transcendent fork-tree which I think is needed to turn an AGI into an ASI. To make matters more complicated, egos aren't generally run on quantum computers, which makes comparing them harder. One of the only things I can find for ego numbers and computer volume is the Portable Server from Transhuman, which is about the size of a carry on luggage, and can hold 10 egos. The size of carry on luggage is around 43 liters external volume, so taking this literally, it should take about 4.3 liters of computation substrate to run an infomorph. We know this is wrong though, as ectos can run infomorphs, and the human brain is about a quarter of that volume. This is probably because Eclipse Phase servers (especially rugged portable ones) are described as armored and massively redundant. As an example, by RAW, the portable server could take an entire pistol of SMG magazine without any loss of functionality. That's a *ton* of redundancy, so saying that an non redundant less-error checking piece of hardware would be 100-1000 times smaller seems fairly reasonable. 4.3 liters/1000 gives a volume slightly larger than a credit card. A credit card has a volume of 3.5 cm3, so that makes a pretty good upper bound for the least an infomorph can run on. Ectos also have radio transceivers and batteries, so chopping the volume down by half seems pretty justifiable. 1.75 cm3 per human ego. Assuming that processing block had a 10 liter volume (1 meter x 15 cm x 15 cm) for a low end, 100 liters (1 meter x 1 meter x 1 meter) for mid end, and 200 liters (2 meters x 1 meter x 1 meter) that gives it an approximate power of: 5714 egos low end 57140 egos mid end and 114300 egos high end. That's a ballpark estimate of the kind of power needed to *birth* a seed AI, with ASIs presumably using much more power. (The Myrmidon TITAN fragment is from pg 21 of Glory, is people want to read that section). This would be a pretty fragile machine, for a military satellite, but it also would vastly more efficient to build a single large and extremely powerful computer than tape tens of thousands of iPhone processors together, so these numbers could easily be several times higher. I'd assume that transhuman informorphs are nowhere near as efficient as something running on dedicated hardware, which an ASI would pretty quickly design for itself. So basically, take those numbers, and multiply them by a certain hard to calculate amount (say 10x due to not being 50k iPhone processors in parallel, and not needing to run transhuman "legacy" functions like a simulated endocrine system or whatever else isn't needed). So far this makes an ASI/hard take offing Seed AI at around 500k human egos generation one. It's going to exponentially increase those numbers with future revisions, so the seed AIs second generation "offspring" will have more like 250,000,000,000 (250 billion) egos worth of power. If we back-convert the 250 billion ego installation it gives a computer volume of nearly 6 olympic swimming pools, so ASIs will pretty quickly become limited by the kind of hardware their installations have on hand, and how much space they can use. Thanks to the speed of light (it takes some noticeable time to get a signal across a 24 meter to a side cube), ASIs probably don't think as anywhere near 250 billion times as fast as a person, but instead can attempt to solve massive sets of problems, approach particularly recondite problems from a billion postman genius points of view, or do other awe-inducing feats of multitasking. The kind of problem which would take the entire human race a million years to solve would take less than an afternoon for a TITAN, Promethean, or Sybil. (abstraction; probably not true) TL:DR ASIs are insanely powerful, really, really insanely powerful. Anyway, this got a little off topic thanks to all the (kind of arbitrary) number crunching, hopefully you all found it interesting. I'd imagine that most of the Prometheans, some of which aren't Seed AI, but are ASI would actually have more trouble downsizing themselves for forking. They'd be native to their own custom hardware, and a very rich computation environment. ADRASTEIA would probably use agents much more than forks because they're native to ASI-dom, while Cassowary and Mycroft who evolved into ASI-dom from a parrot-uplift modeled AGI and an emergent seed AI respectively would be much more fork happy. So I don't think a full promethean would be able to sleeve into a human sized morph, unless they housed themselves in some ASI designed computronium which was greatly more powerful. For example, using a substrate 10 million times more powerful than my calculations of the Myrmidon mainframe a 250 billion ego-equivilant ASI could house itself in a volume similar to that of a human brain. There's some evidence that that kind of computation is possible (The TITAN installation at Iapetus comes to mind, as it could be interpreted as *infinitely* powerful based on Into The White) in Eclipse Phase, so it could happen. Maybe take a page from the Culture and have quantum-foam derived computation if you want to go that route. EDIT: It would take way more than one generation to get to the 250 billion power level. There was an operator error in my math.
Undocking Undocking's picture
There is actually a section
There is actually a section in Firewall that discusses this from page 168-171. Prometheans need superclusters to function as intelligence gods, however they can fork themselves to mere shadows of their original selves to sleeve.