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Rule Clarification on Weapon Mounts

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Sun, 2015-07-12 09:13

Kojak

Rule Clarification on Weapon Mounts

If a bot has multiple weapon mounts, does it require a separate Complex Action to operate each one? For example, the Sentry Bot from Gatecrashing has four mounted weapons and a Speed of 2: does that mean it can only use two of its four weapons each Action Turn?

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"I wonder if in some weird Freudian way, Kojak was sucking on his own head." - Steve Webster on Kojak's lollipop

Sun, 2015-07-12 09:22

Kojak

On a related note, are there

On a related note, are there any guidelines around what size/how many weapons can be mounted on a given bot, or is that pretty much up to the GM?

—

"I wonder if in some weird Freudian way, Kojak was sucking on his own head." - Steve Webster on Kojak's lollipop

Sun, 2015-07-12 10:42

Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture

I think weapon mounts

I think weapon mounts essentially work like hands which can't put the weapon down, so multiple can be fired from one action, but at a penalty. There aren't a lot of guidelines for bots, so it seems like that would be GM discretion.

Tue, 2015-07-14 03:05

Chaplain

Real life weapon mounts have

Real life weapon mounts have stabilisation and can be pointed on a single target without distracting the operator. Why would a reaper morph with quad machine railguns have penalty for shooting them at a single target unless its weapon mounts are pointed separately and manually (which is inferior to even 70's designs)? I'd say multiple mounts can be fired at a single target and resolved with a single attack roll unless those weapons are fired with different firing rates.

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“Any AI smart enough to pass a Turing test is smart enough to know to fail it.”
― Ian McDonald, River of Gods

Tue, 2015-07-14 03:26

Kojak

Yeah, I was leaning toward

Yeah, I was leaning toward allowing all weapons to be tied into a single Complex Action if they're all using the same firing rate and at the same target. But separate targets should require separate Complex Actions, shouldn't they?

—

"I wonder if in some weird Freudian way, Kojak was sucking on his own head." - Steve Webster on Kojak's lollipop

Tue, 2015-07-14 03:41

Chaplain

For all variety of morphs,

For all variety of morphs, game mechanics is too oriented on humanoid, human-sized morphs it seems. A lot of stuff like weapon mounts, small morphs using big guns, tentacles and manipulators used on grips and triggers ergonomically designed for a human hand is simply ignored.

—

“Any AI smart enough to pass a Turing test is smart enough to know to fail it.”
― Ian McDonald, River of Gods

Tue, 2015-07-14 03:48

Kojak

Indeed, which leaves me, as

Indeed, which leaves me, as the guy GMing a group that includes a neo-oct and a neo-corv bot jammer, in something of a constant scramble to figure this stuff out.

—

"I wonder if in some weird Freudian way, Kojak was sucking on his own head." - Steve Webster on Kojak's lollipop

Tue, 2015-07-14 03:56

Chaplain

How about GMing a group with

How about GMing a group with a blackbird which has both invisibility and reduced signature even when it is specifically mentioned that those are mutually exclusive right in their description? Or a fighting kite morph with a neurachem bio-mod which it couldn't possibly have as a synthmorph?

—

“Any AI smart enough to pass a Turing test is smart enough to know to fail it.”
― Ian McDonald, River of Gods

Tue, 2015-07-14 04:56

Darkening Kaos Darkening Kaos's picture

Cybernetics.

Neurachem can be used as a cybernetic augment, see Core, page 306 sidebar.

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Your definition of horror is meaningless to me....... I. Am. A Bay12'er.

Tue, 2015-07-14 06:27

#10

Chaplain

Hm, that's true

—

“Any AI smart enough to pass a Turing test is smart enough to know to fail it.” ― Ian McDonald, River of Gods

Tue, 2015-07-14 08:58

#11

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture

Overthinking: the DM's Bane.

Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
I think weapon mounts essentially work like hands which can't put the weapon down, so multiple can be fired from one action, but at a penalty.

This. It's a limb which can't be used as a manipulator, but can hold two-handed weapons without penalty. No more, no less.

Kojak wrote:
Indeed, which leaves me, as the guy GMing a group that includes a neo-oct and a neo-corv bot jammer, in something of a constant scramble to figure this stuff out.

Chaplain wrote:
For all variety of morphs, game mechanics is too oriented on humanoid, human-sized morphs it seems. A lot of stuff like weapon mounts, small morphs using big guns, tentacles and manipulators used on grips and triggers ergonomically designed for a human hand is simply ignored. ... How about GMing a group with a blackbird which has both invisibility and reduced signature even when it is specifically mentioned that those are mutually exclusive right in their description? Or a fighting kite morph with a neurachem bio-mod which it couldn't possibly have as a synthmorph?

Stop making things hard for yourself – if something isn't stated, then it isn't necessary to introduce it unless it's actively desired. Invisibilty and Reduced signature are incompatible... except in the blackbird. Normal weapons can be used by Octomorphs because they don't have the "Lacks Manipulators" morph trait – either the tentacles are agile enough, or the Smartmaterial grips ubiquitous in modern equipment can be configured appropriately, and so on. If you make the setting do the work for you, then it's not only easier to run the games, it also highlights it's futuristic nature – and also provides a very simple avenue for modeling obsolete or old-world tech. It's Win/Win/Win!

—

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Wed, 2015-07-15 04:26

#12

Chaplain

Smart material grips and

Smart material grips and bioengieering is how i explain this stuff to my players too. It could have been at least mentioned in the rulebook, though - it isn't hard but it could have emphasised the high-techness of the setting nicely. Individually, manually operated weapon mounts which cannot be automatically grouped and/or slaved to single AR targeting marker isn't very high-tech, though. Your average modern-day attack helicopter can do better than that.

—

“Any AI smart enough to pass a Turing test is smart enough to know to fail it.”
― Ian McDonald, River of Gods

Thu, 2015-07-16 09:14

#13

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture

Modern-day attack helicopters can't do gun-kata.

Can you automatically group/twinlink your arms? Same deal. That said, according to the RAW you can create linked mounts by releasing control over them; essentially you replace "your" weapon mounts with attached bots with a weaponmount. Either you make an attack with the weapon and the mount automatically attacks that target, or you simply assign targets using mental actions. As a houserule, there's also nothing stopping you from creating linked weapons - a heavy machine gun can simply be two normal machine guns that always fire at the same target.

—

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Thu, 2015-07-16 10:25

#14

Chaplain

I always assumed, with no

I always assumed, with no "weapon mounts are extra hands which can only be used to hold guns" clarification in the RB, that mounts are exactly that - a weapon systems mounted on top of you which you can paint targets and issue commands for, not rotate or aim with them like you do with hands. If I'm mistaken, then why would you even need so many weapon mounts on Reaper, if you make attacks with so huge negative modifier on the 4th mount?

—

“Any AI smart enough to pass a Turing test is smart enough to know to fail it.”
― Ian McDonald, River of Gods

Fri, 2015-07-17 01:08

#15

SHDNick

I thought that this is why it

I thought that this is why it's possible to take "ambidextrous" multiple times, for folks who wanted to fire multiple guns at once. Otherwise, I figured the Reaper might have a bunch of different weapons appropriate to different situations and use whatever one made sense at the time. I wonder you could model auto-aiming similar to seeker weapons, or just a flat "paint target, get aiming bonus", because now you have software kicking in and don't need to use your ego's COO trait to line up a shot

Fri, 2015-07-17 06:47

#16

Kojak

My understanding is that

My understanding is that Ambidextrous applies to limbs, not weapons mounts.

—

"I wonder if in some weird Freudian way, Kojak was sucking on his own head." - Steve Webster on Kojak's lollipop

Fri, 2015-07-17 18:31

#17

Madwand

This is what ghostrider

This is what ghostrider modules are for. Just fork yourself and give each fork control of a separate mount.

Tue, 2015-07-21 10:04

#18

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture

Simplest weapon mount = pistol welded to forearm.

SHDNick wrote:
I thought that this is why it's possible to take "ambidextrous" multiple times, for folks who wanted to fire multiple guns at once. Otherwise, I figured the Reaper might have a bunch of different weapons appropriate to different situations and use whatever one made sense at the time.

This. Also, at the most basic level, it means that Reapers can carry multiple two-handed weapons whilst keeping their manipulators free.

Kojak wrote:
My understanding is that Ambidextrous applies to limbs, not weapons mounts.

Which is the point: weapons mounts are a type of limb, or are mounted on to limbs.

—

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Fri, 2015-07-24 09:31

#19

Kojak

What's the max number of

What's the max number of weapons mounts you can add to a dwarf? I know there's no rule, I'm just curious how you'd rule were you the GM.

—

"I wonder if in some weird Freudian way, Kojak was sucking on his own head." - Steve Webster on Kojak's lollipop

Tue, 2015-08-04 15:07

#20

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture

How many pistols can you strap to a car?

Kojak wrote:
What's the max number of weapons mounts you can add to a dwarf? I know there's no rule, I'm just curious how you'd rule were you the GM.

Sorry about the delay; once again Real Life refuses to bow to my will. If it were me, I'd apply a "soft" cap of 6 ranged weapons, simply for the sake of not slowing play down to a crawl. This wouldn't be an in-game cap though, it's just that any more weapons would be moddeled as alterations to those already present, or through other houserules as appropriate. It's more appropriate to to think about how many weapons would fit on a Dwarf, rather than mounts. As far as I understand Dwarves are supposed to be about the size of a steamroller, so it shouldn't be a problem to mount multiple two-handed weapons without too much bother.

—

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Tue, 2015-08-04 20:26

#21

Kojak

Interesting that you came up

Interesting that you came up with a max of 6, because that's the exact number I settled on the other night when I sat down with a player to mod up the dwarf he'd acquired. Maybe it's a Schelling point? I did *not* realize that dwarves were the size of a steamroller. My impression was that they were closer in size to a coffee table or flexbot module. But now that I look at it in Transhuman, where it considers it to have the Large Size trait, and it compares it to vehicles in size...yeah, you're probably right.

—

"I wonder if in some weird Freudian way, Kojak was sucking on his own head." - Steve Webster on Kojak's lollipop