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Thoughts on Sapient Muse Possibilities?

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Castina Castina's picture
Thoughts on Sapient Muse Possibilities?
Hello :) [size=8][i]I'm new to the forums and am torn between posting this in the general discussion or in the homebrew section. Please forgive me if I've chosen incorrectly.[/i][/size] Anyway, I'm also pretty new to Eclipse Phase. I'm beginning a campaign (that I'm DMing) this weekend and I'm just looking for a bit of general feedback on my ideas. First thing – my campaign will be a one-player experience to start with. I haven't DM'd in awhile and my boyfriend has never played a serious Pen and Paper RPG before. I figured it'd be an easy way to get both of our feet wet again. Plus, I've run a few one-player campaigns before and they're interesting with the way they focus so deeply on character and story development. So, I've got a homebrew campaign planned and the main quest givers for my player are a concept and corporation of my design (people whom some would consider a new race). They've harvested my player's ego from earth. He's going to start in a virtual reality setting conversing with an infomorph who'll decide exactly where I'll be placing him based on a series of questions. And... I'd like to put that infomorph's ego into an implant on my player's body, and give her a normal muse. Then, I'd like her to function as his muse. So he, in effect, has a sapient muse. Has anyone here done anything like this before? I'd like to think I've got a pretty well-crafted homebrew campaign and I don't know if this has too many holes in it to fit or if it would work just fine in the Eclipse Phase universe.
“One day I will find the right words, and they will be simple.” ― Jack Kerouac
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Ghostrider module with a full
Ghostrider module with a full Ego (Infomorph, possibly with an Eidolon) is very easy to accomplish what you're suggesting!
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
It takes a lot of reading
It takes a lot of reading between the lines but to be clear a 'muse' is a general function, sort of like a butler. Muses are generally 'simple' (by EP standards) AIs (EP p. 264) but as mentioned in the sidebar on p. 265 it is definitely possible for an infomorph to be used as a muse. In most cases the infomorph would probably be most 'comfortable' residing in a Ghostrider module but it is possible for an infomorph to run on an ecto (Transhuman p. 129) and presumably that would mean that they could run on mesh inserts) as well. Depending on what's going on it is possible (in fact it might even be likely) that the infomorph isn't exactly 'free'. Psychosurgery could have been performed on the person (giving them ego traits like Modified Behavior) or they might be running a Slave eidolon (Transhuman p. 142).
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
The supplement Transhuman
The supplement Transhuman expands on rules for infomorphs, and includes the ability to run an infomorph on the mesh inserts of a morph, suffering reduced aptitude maximums in the process (25 instead of 40) That's the simplest way to have a full ego as a muse.
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
I thought they had something
I thought they had something specifically talking about running an infomorph on mesh inserts but I couldn't find it. Thanks.
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
"bonobo XPorn" "..." "uh...sorry mom, I'll do this search."
While this'd work for Firewall, after reading the sections in Firewall about Titan (specifically Titanian CFI's HUMINT operatives) I got the idea of a party where you get the PCs to make two characters, the operative and their sentient muse. Maybe the psychosurgeon/field medic HUMINT operative custom-tailored a fork of themselves, while the hacker/programmer of the team might have an AGI they coded themselves occupying their mesh inserts, or maybe it's a best friend or lover or family member taking care of the operative's accounting, research and infosec! Could be the players all collaborate creating one muse that all of them use identical forks of, or maybe each one is slightly customized? There's a lot of possibilities there, but I could totally see Fleet Intel assembling a unit of people with people for muses and throwing them at threats that like to compromise brains.
MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
Sapient! Not Sentient.
Sapient! Not Sentient.
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
MrWigggles wrote:Sapient! Not
MrWigggles wrote:
Sapient! Not Sentient.
Oh thank God I am not the only one with the pedantic frustration of that difference. Drives me crazy. I yell at my kith and kin that slugs are sentient. But sapience is the trick.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
I'm listening to the first
I'm listening to the first Culture book by Banks, and they keep saying sentient over sapience, and its driving me nutters.
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
hehe ya its a carry over from
hehe ya its a carry over from before the word sapient existed and now even sapient is technically right anymore :P It is true that muses are limited AI's but at least in the majority of the outer system they are codified in laws as sapient full citizens while the inner system they are mostly handled as achildren dependents of their owner. However like it ihas been said with a few upgrades your muse does not have to be particularly limited. with a ghost rider module you can have a full alpha fork running in there of whomever wishes to consent to it. Something bugging me about you folks, you keep on using informpoph as if its a separate ego type from agi and other synthetic life but really its just a state of being, hence morph part of the moniker. any human or uplift can exist as an infomorph not just AI's
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Greetings New Person!
Castina wrote:
Hello :) ... So, I've got a homebrew campaign planned and the main quest givers for my player are a concept and corporation of my design (people whom some would consider a new race). They've harvested my player's ego from earth. He's going to start in a virtual reality setting conversing with an infomorph who'll decide exactly where I'll be placing him based on a series of questions. And... I'd like to put that infomorph's ego into an implant on my player's body, and give her a normal muse. Then, I'd like her to function as his muse. So he, in effect, has a sentient muse.
Hello and welcome! Try to ignore our pedantry :P The concept seems solid, and I have to admit I'm very curious about the Corporation :) The only real question I have is why the infomorph is serving as the players muse, rather than a traveling companion, advisor, minder or mesh "bodyguard". Here's hoping you both have fun :)
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
ORCACommander wrote:. . .
ORCACommander wrote:
. . . It is true that muses are limited AI's but at least in the majority of the outer system they are codified in laws as sapient full citizens while the inner system they are mostly handled as achildren dependents of their owner.
Again, a muse is a function, not a type of being. Most muses are limited AIs but that's hardly an all encompassing truth. They could be AGIs (either emergent or by design) or digitized transhumans (either fully realized or else neurally pruned). Saying muses are limited AIs is like saying that all fast food servers are either male or female. It is a true statement because the percentage of people serving fast food with nonstandard chromosome counts (or who are fully mechanical) are very small, but the two don't have a whole lot to do with one another. That said, I didn't think that limited AI's were considered as sapient full citizen in the outer systems. I thought that they were considered extensions of their owners (meaning that an ALI can administrate property for their owner but cannot own property of their own. Any restitution for their action needs to be taken against their owner and not them because you can't sue them for an activity any more than you could sue a car). Obviously fully functional AGIs or digitized egos are a separate case, but as I said before, that is a small minority of muses.
Quote:
. . .Something bugging me about you folks, you keep on using informpoph as if its a separate ego type from agi and other synthetic life but really its just a state of being, hence morph part of the moniker. any human or uplift can exist as an infomorph not just AI's
No, I'm using infomorph just as it defined; a fully functional intelligence without a physical body. I'm using the infomorph term precisely because it doesn't mean a separate type of ego and it could be used to refer to an AGI or a digitized consciousness.
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
Castina Castina's picture
Oh my goodness, you all made
Oh my goodness, you all made me so happy when I logged on to see the discussion taking place on this thread this morning! [size=10][i](Yes, even the sapient>sentient stuff -- that's my bad and I'm glad you pointed it out. Fixed now!)[/size][/i] This discussion actually answers both my original question and another question that I had bouncing around in my brain about putting two egos into the same morph. I'm planning to eventually put my Player into a morph with an uplifted animal of some sort for a bit, so this killed two birds with one stone! I downloaded all of the supplemental material and was trying to figure out where to start. I think I'll begin with the Transhuman one, since it sounds like it'd really help with some of my ideas. Thanks [b]@Lazarus[/b] for giving me such specific page numbers, that helps a ton. :) Also, [b]@consumerdestroyer[/b] -- That is truly an excellent idea IMO, I love it and may incorporate that into future gameplay. If you expand upon that, please share because it really got my brain rolling. I'll pop back over here after work or on lunch today because I'd like to run a bit more of my story by you brilliant folk before I put it into action tomorrow. Thank you all so much and it's nice to meet every one of you. :)
“One day I will find the right words, and they will be simple.” ― Jack Kerouac
Lazarus Lazarus's picture
No problem.
No problem. Two egos in one morph sounds less like you might be thinking about a sapient muse and more like you might want to look into Ego Sharing (Rimward p. 190). One thing the augmentation doesn't really point out is that it would be entirely possible for egos that are not responsible for gross motor control to function like a muse in addition to whatever their primary physical function (sensors, controlling weapon mounts, etc.) might be. This could lead to a character similar to the one from the old DC comics limited series 'Tailgunner Jo' (http://www.comicvine.com/tailgunner-jo/4050-4032/).
My artificially intelligent spaceship is psychic. Your argument it invalid.
Castina Castina's picture
@Lazarus Oh, no, your post
[b]@Lazarus[/b] Oh, no, your post earlier just got me off thinking about something similar to ego sharing for a totally different aspect of the game. Also, I love Tailgunner Jo actually. An ex boyfriend of mine showed that series to me years ago and I hadn't thought of it in such a long time! So, unrelated to our discussion about all of that, I'm getting ready to do episode one of my game and we'll see how it goes. I haven't DM'd anything in a long time and I'm super excited to start again -- it stimulates my creativity and connects me with such awesome people. Maybe someone here can tell me if there's just something I haven't read yet like the corporation that I've designed (that's the risk of making a homebrew without reading all of the supplemental materials). If I go too into detail, I'll be here typing all night, but here's a short summary: Before the Titans hit, a group of people were able to "ascend" their bodies and exist as spiritual-based egos. Ghosts, essentially. Only the most aware and the most diligent were able to keep their egos from fading out of existence, but even the ones who survived where stuck in a constant fight for existence. When the Titans hit, some of them moved in and harvested some egos for uses that I'll go into some other time and others overtook a few human ships so that they had supplies. These days, (almost) all of them have backed up egos, a morph of some sort, and they're operating mostly "off the grid." I guess I'm just curious what people here think of that general idea, if it's similar to something already in game, and for general input. :)
“One day I will find the right words, and they will be simple.” ― Jack Kerouac
MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
Well, according to the time
Well, according to the time line for EP, for ego digitization didnt happen until after the Titans were fucking shit up. Though inventions are often invented a few times. So its not improbably that some smaller group manage to do it first, and were just selfish assholes with it.
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
Say what now? The EP timeline
Say what now? The EP timeline has digitization predating the awakening of the TITANs by around 20 years. Beyond that what do you mean by ghosts? Are these people running without some kind of computing substrate? That has implications for the metaphysics of your game which could have some serious ramifications.
MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
Does it?
Does it?
Castina Castina's picture
@Trappedinwikipedia Yes, the
[b]@Trappedinwikipedia[/b] Yes, the idea is that they were running without a computing substrate. I'd go into more detail but it's late, I'm tired, and what I'm really curious about is what ramifications would metaphysical implications have? What did I miss?
“One day I will find the right words, and they will be simple.” ― Jack Kerouac
R.O.S.S.-128 R.O.S.S.-128's picture
Ghosts
Well, it implies that ghosts exist in your version of the setting. Which implies that people in that setting actually have souls, and actually are more than the sum of their substrate's computational states (because they are able to exist without a substrate, obviously they are more than their substrate if their substrate is nothing). Which then brings up interesting questions regarding what happens to these ghosts/souls when the computational state is copied or transferred. If you make a fork, which one of them gets the soul? Can souls be copied? Can they be made? Can they be destroyed? Do AGIs have souls? Do/did the TITANs have souls? :p There's nothing wrong with tackling or playing around with these concepts, mind, it's just that things can get remarkably... "interesting", when people start thinking about them too hard.
End of line.
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Spoiler: Highlight to
Spoiler: Highlight to view
Timeline All dates are given in reference to the Fall. BF = Before the Fall. AF = After the Fall. (e.g., BF 10 = 10 years before the Fall.) BF 60+ Crisis grips the globe in the form of drastic climate changes, energy shortages, and geopolitical instability. Initial space expansion creates stations at the Lagrange Points, Luna, and Mars, with robotic exploration of the entire system. Construction begins on a space elevator. Medical advances improve health and organ repair. The rich pursue gene-fixing and transgenic pets. Computer intelligence capabilities equal and exceed that of the human brain. True AI not yet developed. Robotics become widespread and start to replace/invalidate many jobs. Modern nations expand their high-speed wireless networks. BF 60–40 Efforts to undertake megascale geoengineering on Earth cause as many problems as they fix. Major colonies established on the Moon and Mars; outposts established near Mercury, Venus, and the Belt. Explorers reach Pluto. First space elevator on Earth finished. Two others in progress. Space traffic booms. Mass driver built on the Moon. Terraforming of Mars begins. Fusion power developed and working plants established. Genetic enhancements, gene therapies (for longevity), and cybernetic implants become available to the wealthy and powerful. First non-autonomous AIs are secretly developed and quickly put to use in research and netwar. Experience playback (XP) technology developed and put into public use. BF 40–20 Violence and destabilization wrack the Earth; some conflicts spread into space. Argonauts split from hypercorps, taking resources to autonomist habitats. Space expansion opens up legal/ethical loopholes for tech development and allows for increased direct human experimentation. Human cloning becomes possible and available in some areas. Development of first transhuman species. First dolphins and chimpanzees uplifted to sapience. Fusion-drive spacecraft enter common usage. Extended colonization and terraforming of Mars continues. Belt and Titan colonized. Stations established throughout the system. The starving masses volunteer themselves for indentured servitude on hypercorp space projects. Augmented reality becomes widespread. Most networks transformed into self-repairing mesh networks. Personal AI aides become widespread. BF 20–0 Earth continues to suffer, but the pace of technology allows for some interesting developments. Expansion throughout the system, even into the Kuiper Belt. Transhuman species become widespread. Nanotech assemblers become available, but are strictly controlled and jealously guarded by the elite and powerful. Uploading and the digital emulation of memory and consciousness made possible. More species (gorillas, orangutans, octopi, ravens, parrots) uplifted to sapience. Pods see common usage, amid some controversy. The Fall The TITANs evolve from a high-level distributed netwar experiment into self-improving seed AIs. For the first few days, their existence is unsuspected. They advance their awareness, knowledge, and power exponentially, infiltrating the mesh both on Earth and around the system. Large-scale netwar incursions break out between rival states on Earth, sparking numerous conflicts. These attacks are later blamed on the TITANs. Simmering tensions on Earth escalate into outright hostilities and warfare. Massive netwar breaks out and major systems crash as TITANs begin open attacks, also using autonomous war machines. Conflict quickly spirals out of control. The use of nuclear, biological, chemical, digital, and nanotech weapons reported by all sides. TITANs engage in mass forced uploading of human minds. TITAN attacks expand to other parts of solar system, heaviest on the Moon and Mars. Numerous habitats also fall. TITANs suddenly disappear from system, taking millions of uploaded minds with them. The Earth is left a devastated wasteland, a patchwork of radiation hotspots, sterile zones, nanoswarm clouds, roaming war machines, and other unknown and hidden things among the ruins. AF 0–10 A wormhole gateway is discovered on Saturn’s moon Pandora, left by the TITANs. Four others are later found (in the Vulcanoids, on Mars, on Uranus, and in the Kuiper Belt); these are collectively referred to as “Pandora Gates.” Expeditions are sent to extrasolar worlds via the Pandora Gates. Numerous exoplanet colonies established. First contact with the aliens known as the Factors shocks the system. Claiming to act as ambassadors for other alien civilizations, they provide little information about life outside the solar system and warn transhumans away from both seed AI and the Pandora Gates. An attempt to raise a generation of children using force-grown clones and time-accelerated VR fails miserably when most of the children die or go insane. Dubbed the Lost Generation, the survivors are viewed with repugnance and pity. AF 10 Present day.
tl;dr: Between BF 20 and BF 0. So before the Fall.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
The simplest answer to the
The simplest answer to the existence of ghosts would be that reality itself is a computed thing, and as such, it is possible to run a transhuman ego using whatever is running the universe. "Ghosts" essentially being extrauniversal egos projected into the simulation, similar to how people can project into a transhuman made simulspace. That's a really strong piece of evidence for people trying to discover if the universe is a simulation, and makes one wonder who, or what, is running the universe and why they are projecting human (seeming) egos into it. The more conspiracy minded among those people might jump to the conclusion that "reality" is a TITAN simulation, or even an ETI one. Or maybe the supernatural exists, which isn't comforting, as it makes the TITANs much more likely to be self-made actual gods rather than godlike beings. Those are the lines I was thinking down anyway. I actually like the idea, as it fits in really well with the cosmic horror that just makes EP tick, but its really hard to bring universe scale simulation into EP without making everything meaningless. The possibility of interfacing with a "higher" universe would probably do a lot to bring that meaning back. It would be a pretty big truth to add to the setting though, which is why I was wondering.
jKaiser jKaiser's picture
There's even some precedent
There's even some precedent for apparently-supernatural threats in the books, what with that sidebar about the cursed diamond. I'd suggest keeping it subtle, but a haunted wreck or habitat could be very compelling, and if you're clever about it your players will never be quite sure if it's a corrupted AR mist or something other.
Castina Castina's picture
Whew, this past week has been
Whew, this past week has been a crazy ride! But I finally got time to sit back down and focus some more on EP. I'm getting ready to really fine tune episode 2 for my player to go through at the end of this month and my goodness I'm always so happy to see the contributions from people here! Brilliant, creative minds that are helping me to better understand the EP universe and craft my ideas. @Trappedinwikipedia -- My idea is kind of a merging of both ideas you just presented and I can't tell you how relieved I was to come back and not see some big oversight of mine that cancels out my whole story! And @jKaiser, I was thinking I'd send my player out on a gatecrashing mission and have him stumble across either a haunted world, haunted area of space, or a haunted and very unfamiliar craft. Something of the sort. And I want him to always be questioning if it's metaphysical or technological -- that's a question I'll probably never entirely answer, that way it's left up to the imagination. So... My player and I recorded our whole first episode and I've been planning to record each episode (because it's easier than note taking for me). Upon replaying it, we got the idea that we'd actually like to script it out and make it into a podcast that has the feel of a radio show or something similar. I know EP has a few podcasts, but we've never done anything like this before, so I guess I'm just curious what you all think of that? (I know, vague question, I guess I'm just looking for some input.) I'll probably post back here with more about the story later. Should I make a new thread for discussing my game or just keep it in this one since it's already started?
“One day I will find the right words, and they will be simple.” ― Jack Kerouac