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Martian Domes

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Chernoborg Chernoborg's picture
Martian Domes
So, I've been working on drawing some city maps up and had an interesting idea. Would it be possible to build a doorless airlock by filling a tunnel with a heavier than air gas? This could be particularly useful for mass transit so cars and trains wouldn't have to stop on their way into the dome. Mechanically it would be similar to a toilet trap, but instead of water it could use something like Sulfur Hexafluoride -which is always fun : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-XbjFn3aqE . It's been an age since I've had to figure things like partial pressures and hydraulics, so I'm not certain it would work. Particularly, the pressure differential between the two atmospheres could be an issue. While on the subject, what size do you generally imagine the big domes to be? I've been reading the books and forums to see if I missed anything but the best I've got so far is a line in Rimward about Great Nyhavn at "several" kilometers across being slightly smaller than New Shanghai. I settled on "several" being 7 km - which caused some debate in my household !- and New Shanghai being slightly larger at 8 km. Working downwards from there, New Pittsburgh I've made 6 km figuring that the Americans couldn't make it bigger due to terrain. Valles Center, Nytrondheim, and Noctis City come in at 5 km each. Qianjiao is slightly smaller at 4.5 km. And Little Shanghai is smallest at 4 km. That's my reasoning so far , but I'd be interested to hear what everyone else thinks!
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ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
I think it could be possible,
I think it could be possible, in theory, but you'd have to have a tunnel that went almost straight down, traversed a while, and then went straight up. So it could work for, say, a maintenance tunnel accessible by ladder, but for a train tunnel? Probably not. Bear in mind, I am not an engineer, so take it with a grain of salt, but if you just try to fill a surface-level tunnel with heavier than air gas like sulfur hexaflouride, it's going to settle out, spreading around, and letting air interchange happen normally. And this is also with equal pressure on both sides of the gaslock, too, I imagine that the low-pressure Martian atmo would exacerbate things.
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ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
it can work with a lot of
it can work with a lot of effort i think and a large delay in transit. it would be similar to modern rail bridges and elevators. train comes to rest on first giant elevator. elevator goes down train darts forward to the next one that then rises up
GenUGenics GenUGenics's picture
Chernoborg wrote:So, I've
Chernoborg wrote:
So, I've been working on drawing some city maps up and had an interesting idea. Would it be possible to build a doorless airlock by filling a tunnel with a heavier than air gas? This could be particularly useful for mass transit so cars and trains wouldn't have to stop on their way into the dome.
Seems like your best model would be the technology currently used or planned for evacuated trains. Also, check into plasma window technology, which for brief periods can act as a shutter between areas of different atmospheric pressures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarTram
Chernoborg Chernoborg's picture
Here's a better video
Here's a better video demonstrating some of the heavier than air effects of sulfur hexaflouride http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GutiNPwzUA8 the part with the bubbles reminds me of the aerostats of Venus. I figure that the tunnel is definitely underground, but as long as the entryways are above the level of the gas they could be a driveable grade. To pull a fictional cop-out, it could be easier in EP as the Martian atmosphere is at a higher pressure from terraforming and the dome -may- be at lower than Earth normal pressure. Other issues like not being a breathable gas, flight dynamic changes for flying cars, low density objects floating around the cabin, and sound systems become abruptly louder/deeper come to mind . At least some of those would be solved with airtight cabins which may be the case already since we're on Mars! :)
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GenUGenics GenUGenics's picture
It would be interesting to
It would be interesting to see some data on this, but I imagine you could drive up the breathable oxygen mixture in a low pressure dome environment and still retain a good safety margin for fire control. That would really cut down on the need for heavy engineering of systems that transit from one environment to the other.
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
I think your best bet for
I think your best bet for this kind of solution would be to have controlled and really strong top-to-bottom air-flow, similar to the one they have in cleanrooms used for semiconductor technology. If you direct the flow of air very heavily downwards, collect it in tubes at the bottom and then fan it back to the dome, you could get a system that might work for Mars (not for vacuum at one end mind you). Of course, a train moving at high speed would also affect air turbulence, so I don't know how it would interfere with the system.
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Erulastant Erulastant's picture
After some thinking and a bit
After some thinking and a bit of googling, I'm pretty sure this is something that could work in theory but would fail in practice. The issue is that we're looking for a gas (Or liquid!) which is much heavier than air, and which stays in the same state both at interior temperatures (Let's say 20 C) and throughout the range of exterior temperatures (From 27 to -133 C). We might also have some problems with heat loss, since this form of lock might transmit heat outward more easily than a traditional airlock.
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
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I'm pretty sure that the pressure differential kills the idea - afaik, you couldn't maintain a pressure differential without an active system keeping the gas in place, and any pressure difference large enough to make a dome actually necessary is going to make the energy requirements unfeasable. On the other hand, if the pressure difference is low (the dome is there to keep out radiation, weather and so on), then I can't see any reason why this shouldn't work. Should there be no pressure difference, then it's questionable if you need an air lock at all - the CO2 rich martian atmosphere should be more dense anyway, so putting the exits below the internal ground level would make the dome act as a diving bell. What you could do is make a "revolving" airlock: the airlock is 100m (for example) long, and vehicles simply drive down it - mobile walls preceded and follow each vehicle allowing them to pressurize individually.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Chernoborg Chernoborg's picture
Erulastant wrote:We might
Erulastant wrote:
We might also have some problems with heat loss, since this form of lock might transmit heat outward more easily than a traditional airlock.
" Who left the damn transit lock open again? Whaddya tryin' to do terraform all of Mars? Were you raised by Barsoomians? Sheesh!" :) Ah well, the more I think of it the pressure difference is really the idea killer. I think it could work under the right -very narrow- circumstances ,but the engineering needed to go beyond those circumstances would erase the benefits. Perhaps on an exoplanet or if they do a further future Mars where the pressure is higher.
GenUGenics wrote:
Also, check into plasma window technology, which for brief periods can act as a shutter between areas of different atmospheric pressures
In the past I've toyed with the similar idea involving a magnetic ferrofluid held in a field as a sort of liquid airlock.
Thatwhichneverwas wrote:
What you could do is make a "revolving" airlock: the airlock is 100m (for example) long, and vehicles simply drive down it - mobile walls preceded and follow each vehicle allowing them to pressurize individually.
Interesting, though I'd bet it's a bit nerve wracking from the drivers perspective! Initially I thought you meant like a revolving door, which could also work to a degree.
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Bursting Eagern... Bursting Eagerness Soul's picture
Chernoborg wrote:GenUGenics
Chernoborg wrote:
GenUGenics wrote:
Also, check into plasma window technology, which for brief periods can act as a shutter between areas of different atmospheric pressures
In the past I've toyed with the similar idea involving a magnetic ferrofluid held in a field as a sort of liquid airlock.
Have you ever read Permanence buy Karl Schroeder? That kind of tech is used in a really cool way in that.
In other words, firing off a laser with a sufficient TWR for the recoil to be noticeable would require a post-miracle-tech laser weighing less than a disposable plastic spoon and powerful enough to shoot down Death Stars? -- ShadowDragon8685
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Exsurgent Doors!
Chernoborg wrote:
In the past I've toyed with the similar idea involving a magnetic ferrofluid held in a field as a sort of liquid airlock.
Wait, isn't ferrofluid a glistening black colour, has a tendency to form into hideous spikes, and you want people to walk through this? This is glorious.
Chernoborg wrote:
Interesting, though I'd bet it's a bit nerve wracking from the drivers perspective! Initially I thought you meant like a revolving door, which could also work to a degree.
The revolving door idea was where I started. However, making sure vehicles would have sufficient time to pressurize means either making it rotate very slowly, or making the radius stupidly large. That then changed to having two tunnels side by side, with the doors attached to a conveyor belt mounted on the middle wall, and then just having the doors capable of independent motion. Make them transparent (or invisible for that matter) would help panic attacks :P
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
I think at this point, we
I think at this point, we need to apply the rarest superpower: Common Sense. All of these ideas have high-speed maglev trains barreling full-tilt into an inhabited city, through some kind of hilarious contrivance designed to act as a maglev-speed airlock. Any of the gas-pressure versions run into the risk that the system will fail, thus leaving a gigantic, train-tunnel sized hole in the dome's pressurization; not to mention the fact that a maglev train barreling into that high-density gas will create a shockwave in front of it and a low-pressure zone behind it, blowing whatever high-density gas you used into the dome, and creating a hole through the gas zone which will, if only briefly, connect the dome interior and exterior atmospheres. Also, you know, what with the pressure differentials, you'd have to be manufacturing and pumping a [b]lot[/b] of gas into the tunnel, constantly. The high-speed door systems that track with the train and both fill and "sweep" the entire tunnel are hilariously vulnerable to sabotage, and even a simple failure means the train is plowing headlong into the door, which will break the airlock and probably kill some folks. If you want to get a train from outside the dome to the inside of the dome, you just need to use a regular airlock, bring the train to a halt in it, and then go into the dome. People probably don't want a supersonic maglev train going through their city anyway, so you'll have to slow down one way or another. If you just want to get the people in the train into the dome, then you just pull up to a train station outside the dome, use extendible docking airlocks to the train doors, and they disembark to a terminal inside the dome, where they can then board the local transport taking them in the direction they want to go.
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ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
...
Oh, I wasn't thinking about using an airlock for trains. I was thinking about automobiles. You don't need an airlock for trains. Just have the rails go through enclosed tunnels open to the outside atmosphere. Then you simply have the platform/loading dock establish an airtight seal with the cars, and you're good. No muss, no fuss.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Chernoborg Chernoborg's picture
Common sense? Pish tosh! This
Common sense? Pish tosh! This is the internet sir! Common sense has no place here! :) Okay, now that I've got that out of my system... I don't think anyone was suggesting that a maglev was moving through these locks at anything near full speed. Keeping the trains outside is sensible as as interior space is at a premium and a train station would be better served as a souk-like arrangement. The funny thing is there is a place in the Solar system that has the matching temperature and pressure for a open lock to work...Venus! The only difference is that an intermediate gas isn't necessary as the regular atmosphere is already denser than air. It could resemble a wading pool where the people just walk down into the CO² and outside. Speaking of speed...I had a laugh when trying to pin down a size for the domes. Anything flying around inside must be doing so relatively slowly. Even if the huge domes are about 8 km across that's not really that far to walk. A flyer would get there in no time. Now I know that the thicker air inside and lower gravity would make it easier to stay aloft, but anything more powerful than transhuman powered flight would be flying circles inside the dome!
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