Value of the Kroner?

Mon, 2015-01-05 14:36

#2

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

my best evaluation of it is

my best evaluation of it is that it has no value outside the titanian economy. hell the titanians seem to do their best to make it valueless there to begin with

Mon, 2015-01-05 14:40

#3

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

It seems like a weird "vote

It seems like a weird "vote with your wallet" system to justify work in a techno-socialist system.

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Mon, 2015-01-05 15:49

#4

Space Cynic Space Cynic's picture

Nil.

The krone is not worth the paper it's not printed on. The Titanians have managed to create a completely closed economic system that nonetheless must suffer from runaway inflation, since they pegged their currency to qubits for no reason.

—

+Space porn -Space people

Mon, 2015-01-05 16:00

#5

Nerathul

Well, it's not like the

Well, it's not like the Kroner has much use. It can't be spent and just reinvested in projects you support. It is weird they linked it to anything rather than simply being a fiat currency seeing as it's not used to trade with anyone and so would not need to be backed by anything.

—

In the sea without lees Standeth the bird of Hermes Eating his wings variable And maketh himself yet full stable

Mon, 2015-01-05 16:03

#6

Nerathul

Also: Rep is not currency, if

Also: Rep is not currency, if you are not pushy about it and don't piss of anyone, it's possible to remain with full rep scores even as you ask for money or resources left and right. You can spend rep if you decide to be demanding and get things done regardless of how much it hurts your relationship.

—

In the sea without lees Standeth the bird of Hermes Eating his wings variable And maketh himself yet full stable

Mon, 2015-01-05 16:04

#7

Space Cynic Space Cynic's picture

Only the worst is good enough.

Useless money with imaginary value isn't enough for technosocialists. They demand useless money whose imaginary value is actually decreasing.

—

+Space porn -Space people

Mon, 2015-01-05 17:38

#8

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

Space Cynic wrote:Useless

Space Cynic wrote:
Useless money with imaginary value isn't enough for technosocialists. They demand useless money whose imaginary value is actually decreasing.

It is truly runaway inflation though? Qubits are not an infinite resource, they deplete with use, so theoretically, it is a little more flexible isn't it?

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Mon, 2015-01-05 17:46

#9

Space Cynic Space Cynic's picture

The main problem is...

The "value" is directly tied to qubit extraction or production or whatever you choose to call it, so any technological innovations in that area should lead to burst of inflation. It's kind of a theoretical question, anyway. Why would completely useless money be pegged to anything in the first place?

—

+Space porn -Space people

Mon, 2015-01-05 19:25

#10

Bursting Eagern... Bursting Eagerness Soul's picture

I wasn't really going for a

I wasn't really going for a setting debate here. I was thinking more in terms of converting [i]to[/i] it than away from. For an example, say that an Extropian is hauling a small, metal-rich asteroid worth 50,000 credits to sell to the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth is unlikely to pay them in credits, so how many Kroner would they get for it?

—

In other words, firing off a laser with a sufficient TWR for the recoil to be noticeable would require a post-miracle-tech laser weighing less than a disposable plastic spoon and powerful enough to shoot down Death Stars? -- ShadowDragon8685

Mon, 2015-01-05 20:15

#11

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

absolutely nothing. kronor is

absolutely nothing. kronor is a completely internal currency whose only interest an outsider would have is if they were a collector.

Mon, 2015-01-05 21:14

#12

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Bursting Eagerness Soul wrote

Bursting Eagerness Soul wrote:
I wasn't really going for a setting debate here. I was thinking more in terms of converting [i]to[/i] it than away from. For an example, say that an Extropian is hauling a small, metal-rich asteroid worth 50,000 credits to sell to the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth is unlikely to pay them in credits, so how many Kroner would they get for it?

The Commonwealth would be more likely to pay in credits (they probably do deal in credits for external trade for exactly this reason,) or in trade. They [i]do not[/i] want outside parties getting ahold of Kroner, because Kroner are what determines how many resources from the public trough are allocated Titanian microcorps.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Mon, 2015-01-05 21:40

#13

Nerathul

Again, Kroners are not worth

Again, Kroners are not worth anything, you cannot buy anything with them. Their sole use is to determine how much ressources internal departments and microcorps will be allocated. They're essentially a voting method, not currency. Titanians would be much more likely to either trade in other resources or offer some form of currency other than Kroners. I find the linkage to Qubits to be odd seeing as the Kroner does not need any kind of backing seeing as it's not traded. It would have been much more sensible to set it as fiat currency. Standards don't really help to protect from inflation and in fact just makes it harder to control as inflation will happen randomly when someone stumble upon whatever you based your currency on; Gold, Silver, Qubits or whatever and also inhibit economic growth until you have actually found more stuff to base it on.

—

In the sea without lees Standeth the bird of Hermes Eating his wings variable And maketh himself yet full stable

Mon, 2015-01-05 22:04

#14

UnitOmega

While the kroner has no real

While the kroner has no real "price" value internally, you can convert it into credit. There are complex, unilucidated legal loopholes which allow wont to convert kroner into liquid currency, a process which is heavily and semi-legally managed by the Kron Kartelyei. This is presumably similar to rep-to-cred loaning you can get on Luna or Extropia, only run by ex-Russian and Ukrainian mobsters. So no, the Titanian Commonwealth would not buy a metals-rich asteroid with kroner, they'd use other physical resources they have to have ISC and buy with that. But if a Titanian citizen is going off Titan and needs some cash fast, they can maybe burn a few kroners into some cash. The value would be set by the Kartelyei and how much value they get out of getting a kroner or two.

—

H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Mon, 2015-01-05 22:50

#15

Bursting Eagern... Bursting Eagerness Soul's picture

That makes sense. But

That makes sense. But seriously, for a hypothetical conversion by the Kartelyei, how many credits would one get for a kroner? It's not that hard of a question.

—

In other words, firing off a laser with a sufficient TWR for the recoil to be noticeable would require a post-miracle-tech laser weighing less than a disposable plastic spoon and powerful enough to shoot down Death Stars? -- ShadowDragon8685

Mon, 2015-01-05 22:51

#16

MAD Crab

Kroner doesn't have to be

Kroner doesn't have to be pinned to a commodity, but it doesn't hurt anything by being so as far as I can tell. If nothing else, it gives the population an idea of how valuable their 'vote' is. "By giving this kroner to this microcorp, they can get a qbit or something equivalent in value." As far as inflation goes, what does that even mean in this kind of society? OH NO, THE PRICE OF A QBIT FELL! ... ok, everybody gets more kroner, since the output of the economy can buy more qbits.

—

Tue, 2015-01-06 08:03

#17

Space Cynic Space Cynic's picture

UnitOmega wrote:While the

UnitOmega wrote:
While the kroner has no real "price" value internally, you can convert it into credit.

How? I have 1000 kroner. I can really see why I would rather have 1000, 100 or even 10 credits. I'd sell my life's "savings" in kroner for enough credits to buy a package of space gum. But why off Earth would anyone with half a brain and two credits to rub together want my kroner? Sure, I can see why a few individuals with an interest in influencing Titanian society would want kroner, even if I think that just bribing a few officials with real money would be far more efficient. But the supply of kroner-that-want-to-become-credits must be vastly larger than the supply of credits-that-want-to-become-kroner, simply because a credit is immensely more useful than a krone. A credit would be immensely more useful on Titan itself, never mind the rest of the System! The exchange rate would be ridiculous, and the conversion most likely barely worth the effort of the person with the kroner. I really wish the writers would have thought about this for more than two seconds.

MAD Crab wrote:
Kroner doesn't have to be pinned to a commodity, but it doesn't hurt anything by being so as far as I can tell. If nothing else, it gives the population an idea of how valuable their 'vote' is. "By giving this kroner to this microcorp, they can get a qbit or something equivalent in value."

Except ... they ... can't? If that was true, I would convert all my kroner into qubits, get as far away from Saturn as possible and never look back.

MAD Crab wrote:
As far as inflation goes, what does that even mean in this kind of society? OH NO, THE PRICE OF A QBIT FELL! ... ok, everybody gets more kroner, since the output of the economy can buy more qbits.

When the best that can be said about your economy is that it's not hurt by hyperinflation due to the currency having no actual value in the first place, I think something might be wrong with your economy.

—

+Space porn -Space people

Tue, 2015-01-06 08:18

#18

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Space Cynic wrote:UnitOmega

Space Cynic wrote:
UnitOmega wrote:
While the kroner has no real "price" value internally, you can convert it into credit.
How? I have 1000 kroner. I can really see why I would rather have 1000, 100 or even 10 credits. I'd sell my life's "savings" in kroner for enough credits to buy a package of space gum.

That would be really, really stupid of you, since you can get a packet of space gum [i]for literally free[/i] on Titan.

Quote:
But why off Earth would anyone with half a brain and two credits to rub together want my kroner? Sure, I can see why a few individuals with an interest in influencing Titanian society would want kroner, even if I think that just bribing a few officials with real money would be far more efficient. But the supply of kroner-that-want-to-become-credits must be vastly larger than the supply of credits-that-want-to-become-kroner, simply because a credit is immensely more useful than a krone. A credit would be immensely more useful on Titan itself, never mind the rest of the System! The exchange rate would be ridiculous, and the conversion most likely barely worth the effort of the person with the kroner. I really wish the writers would have thought about this for more than two seconds.

Gee, let me think: Credits are utterly useless in Titanian society unless you're dealing with the criminal element, and, just because it's easy to forget because you're used to thinking of anarchists, Titan actually does have law enforcement who are looking for criminals to prosecute. Taking bribes in credits on Titan is risky (could be a sting operation by the cops,) spending it is risky (criminals (not even necessarily the ones you're dealing with) might decide to blackmail you with evidence of the transactions,) and the only things you need credit for are going to be the kind of things which are illegal. So why, again, would a Titanian official, even if you could find a corrupt one, be interested in your credits? He'd probably be more interested in your kroner, to support his pet projects.

Quote:
Except ... they ... can't? If that was true, I would convert all my kroner into qubits, get as far away from Saturn as possible and never look back.

Then you'd be a fool, because (a) qubits are tied to the other qubit, so unless you [i]really[/i] want to talk to that one guy, they're utterly useless to you, and (b) what in the world do you want to leave for? Also, (c) I think you're entirely misunderstanding the nature of a kroner.

Quote:
When the best that can be said about your economy is that it's not hurt by hyperinflation due to the currency having no actual value in the first place, I think something might be wrong with your economy.

Kroner do have value. They're a form of social currency which are earned rather than automatic, (hard work/skilled work = more kroner than someone who puts in the bare minimum and goes to fuck people all day,) and which are used to allocate public resources to endeavors you find worthy. (I like that new startup cafe in that hole-in-the-wall on the 30th floor of that apartment tower on my way to T.A.U., the one with wing or free-climbing access only, I'm going to give them my kroner to keep going and expanding.) Kroner, let me try and make sure you understand this clearly, [i]are not money for you to use [u]for you[/u][/i]. You don't use Kroner to satisfy you, you use Kroner to support things that you like. Think of Kroner like Kickstarter, only you can [i]only[/i] spend Kroner on Kickstarter. You can't buy space gum with it (you can get that for free at any public maker.) You can't buy the services of a whore with it (seriously, just have your muse look for folks who are DTF, and have the muses work out a time.) You can't buy things with it. You can only use it to back projects you like.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Tue, 2015-01-06 08:40

#19

Space Cynic Space Cynic's picture

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:That

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
That would be really, really stupid of you, since you can get a packet of space gum [i]for literally free[/i] on Titan.

Right, because Socialist Space Magic. Sorry, I ain't drinking that particular brand of Flavor Aid.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Credits are utterly useless in Titanian society unless you're dealing with the criminal element, and, just because it's easy to forget because you're used to thinking of anarchists, Titan actually does have law enforcement who are looking for criminals to prosecute.

Geez, I dunno. Maybe I want something that I can actually use for the exchange of goods and services. Or wait, right, I live in a magical utopia where I have no needs that aren't immediately met by the benevolent space fairies.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Taking bribes in credits on Titan is risky (could be a sting operation by the cops,) spending it is risky (criminals (not even necessarily the ones you're dealing with) might decide to blackmail you with evidence of the transactions,) and the only things you need credit for are going to be the kind of things which are illegal.

No shit it's illegal. If it wasn't illegal, the Titanian "currency" would be replaced by credits before you can say "smörgåsbord".

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
So why, again, would a Titanian official, even if you could find a corrupt one, be interested in your credits? He'd probably be more interested in your kroner, to support his pet projects.

Yes, why would people actually want things for themselves? I mean, that's just weird. Supporting government programs is much more fun than goods and services.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Then you'd be a fool, because (a) qubits are tied to the other qubit, so unless you [i]really[/i] want to talk to that one guy, they're utterly useless to you, and (b) what in the world do you want to leave for? Also, (c) I think you're entirely misunderstanding the nature of a kroner.

a) They might be useless to me, but there's this thing called the "market". See, if I have something others want, they might give me stuff I want! b) Yes, why would I ever, ever want to leave? That would be like wanting to leave other perfect socialist utopias, like Cuba or North Korea. c) No, I think I recognize a complete and utter lack of understanding of Economics 101 when I see it.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Kroner do have value. They're a form of social currency which are earned rather than automatic, (hard work/skilled work = more kroner than someone who puts in the bare minimum and goes to fuck people all day,) and which are used to allocate public resources to endeavors you find worthy. (I like that new startup cafe in that hole-in-the-wall on the 30th floor of that apartment tower on my way to T.A.U., the one with wing or free-climbing access only, I'm going to give them my kroner to keep going and expanding.) Kroner, let me try and make sure you understand this clearly, [i]are not money for you to use [u]for you[/u][/i]. You don't use Kroner to satisfy you, you use Kroner to support things that you like. Think of Kroner like Kickstarter, only you can [i]only[/i] spend Kroner on Kickstarter. You can't buy space gum with it (you can get that for free at any public maker.) You can't buy the services of a whore with it (seriously, just have your muse look for folks who are DTF, and have the muses work out a time.) You can't buy things with it. You can only use it to back projects you like.

Yes, I know. I'm literate. What I'm saying is that the very fact that the krone can't be used to satisfy individual needs makes it de facto useless in any conversion with real money.

—

+Space porn -Space people

Tue, 2015-01-06 09:07

#20

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture

Okay, this is getting wierd.

For the sake of clarity, it is absolutely clear to everyone here that Kroner aren't currency per se, yes? They're your influence over public policy. You don't buy things with them for the same reason you don't buy things with your ability to vote on your communities bylaws. Just how much much money would I have to pay to buy your vote in the next local election?

—

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Tue, 2015-01-06 09:24

#21

Space Cynic Space Cynic's picture

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:For

ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
For the sake of clarity, it is absolutely clear to everyone here that Kroner aren't currency per se, yes?

It is clear to me, but apparently not to the writers. Why else would they say that their not-currency is "pegged to the common market price of a terabyte of qubits" (Core p. 79), or that people are actually converting kroner into credits (Rimward p. 99, 101)?

—

+Space porn -Space people

Tue, 2015-01-06 09:48

#22

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Space Cynic wrote

Space Cynic wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
That would be really, really stupid of you, since you can get a packet of space gum [i]for literally free[/i] on Titan.
Right, because Socialist Space Magic. Sorry, I ain't drinking that particular brand of Flavor Aid.

Then you're being willfully ignorant, because that's [i]exactly how things work[/i] in an autonomist, moneyless society. Want some space gum? Go down to the local maker and get a pack printed out on your way to class. It's all going into the recyclers after you've used it anyway, where its atoms can be broken down and used to make more space gum, or a filet mignon, or a Hazer, or whatever. The only cost is energy, and on fucking Titan, they have no shortage of that.

Space Cynic wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Credits are utterly useless in Titanian society unless you're dealing with the criminal element, and, just because it's easy to forget because you're used to thinking of anarchists, Titan actually does have law enforcement who are looking for criminals to prosecute.
Geez, I dunno. Maybe I want something that I can actually use for the exchange of goods and services. Or wait, right, I live in a magical utopia where I have no needs that aren't immediately met by the benevolent space fairies.

What goods, exactly, do you need? Food, water, air, shelter? All provided free of charge. Clothes? Basic clothes would be provided free of charge. If you need anything more durable, for whatever your reasons, it will be provided free of charge. If you [i]want[/i] something more extravagant, you can wait in line, or call in a rep favor to get it quickly. A cutting-edge computer and all the data/games you could ever ask for? Guess what, bub, you're in Autonomist space. The computer was installed your brain before you ever got your body, and all the data you could ask for is free. All the games you can ever play, free. A vehicle? If you live in the city, you probably don't need one. If you [i]want[/i] one, a scooter or something, chances are you can get one by waiting in a line, or pulling a favor. Hell, you can get bigger and less practical, if you want. If you [i]need[/i] one, say, for whatever occupation you pursue, it will be provided. A weapon and armor for home and habitat defense? Provided courtesy of the Titanian Commonwealth, right into a locker in your apartment. What services could you need, for that matter? Medical attention? Free of charge. Postal services? It's in your head. Police and firefighters? You earned that when you put in your three years civil service. Sex? Head down to the red light party district, have your muse announce your desire to fuck anyone who meets your requirements, and you'll probably get laid in an hour or less. Education? You earned that with your three years civil service, take all the learning you can cram into your head. What else do you need?

Space Cynic wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Taking bribes in credits on Titan is risky (could be a sting operation by the cops,) spending it is risky (criminals (not even necessarily the ones you're dealing with) might decide to blackmail you with evidence of the transactions,) and the only things you need credit for are going to be the kind of things which are illegal.
No shit it's illegal. If it wasn't illegal, the Titanian "currency" would be replaced by credits before you can say "smörgåsbord".

Kroner are not, I repeat again, currency you use to satisfy yourself. It's a second form of voting that you earn by work, and use to allocate towards whatever you like the thought of, as opposed to the votes which guide policy.

Space Cynic wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
So why, again, would a Titanian official, even if you could find a corrupt one, be interested in your credits? He'd probably be more interested in your kroner, to support his pet projects.
Yes, why would people actually want things for themselves? I mean, that's just weird. Supporting government programs is much more fun than goods and services.

What, [b]exactly[/b], is that official going to buy with credits, huh? What can you get with credits on Titan that you can't get, for [i]free[/i], just by being a Titanian citizen with an @-Rep which is not utter garbage? Untraceable arms and armor? A nanoplauge, perhaps? Maybe forknapped egoes? Morphs that "fell off the back of a truck"? Practically speaking, chances are that nothing that corrupt official is going to want can be had on Titan for credits. He probably isn't the sort of person who consumes nanoplauges, untracable arms and armor, forknapped egoes, or morphs which fell off the back of a truck. All things a group of Firewall Sentinels might want to acquire on Titan, but not a corrupt Titanian official.

Space Cynic wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Then you'd be a fool, because (a) qubits are tied to the other qubit, so unless you [i]really[/i] want to talk to that one guy, they're utterly useless to you, and (b) what in the world do you want to leave for? Also, (c) I think you're entirely misunderstanding the nature of a kroner.
a) They might be useless to me, but there's this thing called the "market". See, if I have something others want, they might give me stuff I want! b) Yes, why would I ever, ever want to leave? That would be like wanting to leave other perfect socialist utopias, like Cuba or North Korea. c) No, I think I recognize a complete and utter lack of understanding of Economics 101 when I see it.

A: You have Cubits that are tied to Cubits in the possession of the Titanian Commonwealth. [b]Not a large market[/b] there. B: More like wanting to leave Space Sweden. C: Fuck your Econ 101, I took it, too. I also took American Government 101, and it has precisely as much bearing on this discussion. Kroner aren't fucking dollars. They aren't dollars, because you don't need to spend Kroner to get food, or shelter, or space gum. [i]Because the Titanian Commonwealth has moved past the need for a financial system.[/i] Get it through your head: the idea of wanting to use credits to buy anything in the Titanian Commonwealth makes precisely as much sense as wanting to use Gold-Pressed Latinum to buy anything on Earth, in the United Federation of Planets. It's absurd. You want a pack of space gum, you don't buy it with a microstrip of GPL, you replicate the motherfucker. Nanofabrication isn't quite as fast as replication, but it's good enough.

Space Cynic wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Kroner do have value. They're a form of social currency which are earned rather than automatic, (hard work/skilled work = more kroner than someone who puts in the bare minimum and goes to fuck people all day,) and which are used to allocate public resources to endeavors you find worthy. (I like that new startup cafe in that hole-in-the-wall on the 30th floor of that apartment tower on my way to T.A.U., the one with wing or free-climbing access only, I'm going to give them my kroner to keep going and expanding.) Kroner, let me try and make sure you understand this clearly, [i]are not money for you to use [u]for you[/u][/i]. You don't use Kroner to satisfy you, you use Kroner to support things that you like. Think of Kroner like Kickstarter, only you can [i]only[/i] spend Kroner on Kickstarter. You can't buy space gum with it (you can get that for free at any public maker.) You can't buy the services of a whore with it (seriously, just have your muse look for folks who are DTF, and have the muses work out a time.) You can't buy things with it. You can only use it to back projects you like.
Yes, I know. I'm literate. What I'm saying is that the very fact that the krone can't be used to satisfy individual needs makes it de facto useless in any conversion with real money.

Gee, because nobody could possibly want to influence which microcorps get the resources of the Titanian Commonwealth allocated to them.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Tue, 2015-01-06 11:02

#23

Space Cynic Space Cynic's picture

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Then

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Then you're being willfully ignorant, because that's [i]exactly how things work[/i] in an autonomist, moneyless society. Want some space gum? Go down to the local maker and get a pack printed out on your way to class. It's all going into the recyclers after you've used it anyway, where its atoms can be broken down and used to make more space gum, or a filet mignon, or a Hazer, or whatever. The only cost is energy, and on fucking Titan, they have no shortage of that.

Now ain't that wonderful. Kind of makes you wonder why not everyone uses these magical future space doohickeys to get rid of want forever. Oh, right, the Evil Conservative Space Capitalists hate freedom and happiness and love.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
What goods, exactly, do you need?

Right now? A nice four-room flat in the middle of Nyhavn, roughly twenty new pleasure pods for me and the missus, my own private spaceship to cruise around the rings of Saturn in. Oh, and I'd like to pay some other guy to do the boring communal chores the Commonwealth expects me to do. And I want it right now, if you don't mind. I can't have that? Well hot diggity damn, it's almost like there's this whole "supply and demand" thing goin' on. I guess I'll have to save up money and prioritize, like a common slob.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Kroner are not, I repeat again, currency you use to satisfy yourself. It's a second form of voting that you earn by work, and use to allocate towards whatever you like the thought of, as opposed to the votes which guide policy.

I keep tellin' you kroner are worthless, so it seems we are in a fine state of agreement then.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
What, [b]exactly[/b], is that official going to buy with credits, huh? What can you get with credits on Titan that you can't get, for [i]free[/i], just by being a Titanian citizen with an @-Rep which is not utter garbage?

Right now? A nice four-room flat in the middle of Nyhavn, roughly twenty new pleasure pods for him and his missus, his own private spaceship to cruise around the rings of Saturn in. Say, is there an echo in here?

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
A: You have Cubits that are tied to Cubits in the possession of the Titanian Commonwealth. [b]Not a large market[/b] there.

Now, for once I think you have a good point. Ah heck, I guess the krone really is completely worthless after all.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
B: More like wanting to leave Space Sweden.

Are you telling me Sweden has no emigration? That sure is news to me. It's a flawed comparison, in any case. Sweden is a mixed economy, like every other even remotely decent plot of land on this planet. You can actually buy things with Swedish kronor.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
C: Fuck your Econ 101, I took it, too. I also took American Government 101, and it has precisely as much bearing on this discussion. Kroner aren't fucking dollars. They aren't dollars, because you don't need to spend Kroner to get food, or shelter, or space gum. [i]Because the Titanian Commonwealth has moved past the need for a financial system.[/i]

Wow! I guess it's like the ol' Soviet Union, then.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Get it through your head: the idea of wanting to use credits to buy anything in the Titanian Commonwealth makes precisely as much sense as wanting to use Gold-Pressed Latinum to buy anything on Earth, in the United Federation of Planets. It's absurd. You want a pack of space gum, you don't buy it with a microstrip of GPL, you replicate the motherfucker.

Fiction sure is a swell place to live.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Gee, because nobody could possibly want to influence which microcorps get the resources of the Titanian Commonwealth allocated to them.

Nobody with a decent hobby, no.

—

+Space porn -Space people

Tue, 2015-01-06 11:11

#24

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

credits would only be useful

credits would only be useful to a corrupt titanian official if was dealing with sunward elements and needed some blueprints for something exotic that the aurgonauts had not worked out an OS version of it.

Tue, 2015-01-06 11:24

#25

UnitOmega

And this, ladies and

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why Titan has Reboot gangs.

—

H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Tue, 2015-01-06 11:43

#26

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

OK Cynic you want all those

OK Cynic you want all those right the fuck now? you can have them right the fuck now Just don't expect anyone to want to do anything else for you for the next 3-6 months. Here is where the system runs into trouble. Greed and self control. This is where game mechanics try to simulate the real life consequecnes. Sure you could have those things. the apartment you can have in a few weeks pods a month if you want delivery all at once but that space ship is gona take year do to how long they take to put together and people will still want to do things with or for you. demanding RTFN is when you Burn your rep in the game mechanics changing social and economic policies is not as easy as flipping a switch. The PC morngingstar and other sunward elements are very much lay overs of Prefall society where there were still nation states and capitalism as the defacto system. capitalist elements had pretty much total claim sunward and the only places where new socio economic experiments could take place was rimward. Sure the sunward elements could switch over to what is going on rimward but they do not want to. They have centuries of capitalist baggage with them. they want to maintain that old status qua of prefall capitalism while expanding in a way unchecked by governments since the only nation state to still exist is the LLA. the Rimward elements are not going to switch over because Hey for the most part we are doing pretty alright out here. and a small reminder, shadow and cynic please be polite to one another. And Cynic we have other threads devoted to why anarchists in this setting are both a joke and what makes them good so Before we drag this off topic much further go and revive one of those.

Tue, 2015-01-06 11:59

#27

Space Cynic Space Cynic's picture

I haven't taken part in any

I haven't taken part in any popularity contests since high school, I ain't gonna start now. At least my old bullies never actually drained my bank account, they just kicked me in the balls. All things considered, I'd choose some testicular pain over living in a rep economy. But right, ain't the thread for that. Have we established the exchange rate for kroner and credits yet? My estimation is: "Sorry, we don't want no monopoly money. Try Toys 'R' Us."

—

+Space porn -Space people

Tue, 2015-01-06 13:38

#28

MAD Crab

Pretty sure we've established

Pretty sure we've established that you hate the basic premise of the game - post scarcity civilisation. Whatever, I suspect that you're the type that would love a certain kind of stackless synth.

—

Tue, 2015-01-06 13:39

#29

Bursting Eagern... Bursting Eagerness Soul's picture

Oh for the love of fuck

Again, I'm not looking for a political debate. I am not asking for an argument over setting elements, just how people would use them in their game. So let me give an example. My PC is looking to emigrate to Titan from Extropia (or Mars or Luna or fucking anywhere else that uses credits). He has 10,000 credits in the bank that he would like to be able to use on Titan, but people on Titan only use kroner. So he decides to get them exchanged through a dubiously legal loophole. [i]In your game[/i], how many kroner would he get for his 10,000 credits? That's it. That's all I'm asking. From an out-of-character, game-mechanical viewpoint, what is the fucking exchange rate?! Another example, to clarify, now that my PC is on Titan and has his credits converted to some nebulous number of kroner, he wants to buy a piece of gear worth 1000 credits on Extropia from a Titanian microcorp. How many kroner does he pay to get it?

—

In other words, firing off a laser with a sufficient TWR for the recoil to be noticeable would require a post-miracle-tech laser weighing less than a disposable plastic spoon and powerful enough to shoot down Death Stars? -- ShadowDragon8685

Tue, 2015-01-06 13:50

#30

MAD Crab

He doesn't.

He doesn't. You don't buy goods with kroner. That's not politics, it's mechanics. If you were trying to get kroner anyway, to invest in a microcorp or something (maybe as some kind of under-the-table thing) I'd do something like 20-50% of value. Lots of risk, little reward.

—

Tue, 2015-01-06 13:54

#31

Bursting Eagern... Bursting Eagerness Soul's picture

MAD Crab wrote:He doesn't.

MAD Crab wrote:
He doesn't. You don't buy goods with kroner. That's not politics, it's mechanics. If you were trying to get kroner anyway, to invest in a microcorp or something (maybe as some kind of under-the-table thing) I'd do something like 20-50% of value. Lots of risk, little reward.

Okay. Question answered. Thank you.

—

In other words, firing off a laser with a sufficient TWR for the recoil to be noticeable would require a post-miracle-tech laser weighing less than a disposable plastic spoon and powerful enough to shoot down Death Stars? -- ShadowDragon8685

Tue, 2015-01-06 13:56

#32

Space Cynic Space Cynic's picture

MAD Crab wrote:Pretty sure we

MAD Crab wrote:
Whatever, I suspect that you're the type that would love a certain kind of stackless synth.

Now what's that supposed to mean?

—

+Space porn -Space people

Tue, 2015-01-06 14:11

#33

Lilith

RE:

Space Cynic wrote:
MAD Crab wrote:
Whatever, I suspect that you're the type that would love a certain kind of stackless synth.
Now what's that supposed to mean?

Fairly certain he's making implications about you being a Griefer. Which is ridiculous, since you're clearly a neo-pig.

Tue, 2015-01-06 15:20

#34

Space Cynic Space Cynic's picture

Ah, right.

Ah, right. In any case, I typed up my own versions of the Titanians and anarchists over in the Homebrew forum. I consider them somewhat more realistic than the ones presented in the books, and more in keeping with the tone set by the Consortium and the Junta.

—

+Space porn -Space people

Tue, 2015-01-06 17:23

#35

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

UnitOmega wrote:And this,

UnitOmega wrote:
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why Titan has Reboot gangs.

Respectfully to Cynic, it does sound like he is paraphrasing or rephrasing the sidebar in Rimward

Quote:
Sidebar So I have to vote every six hours, I’m expected to clean recycling vats in the name of ‘community,’ and I live in a cold dark hell hole at the ass end of the solar system? And that’s the good life? The fuck is wrong with these people? I’d rather spend sixteen years as a robot slave on Mars. Then I could work off my indenture, get rich, and own a bunch of pleasure pods with big tits. That’d be the life. This is a bunch of shit. —Nils Högarn, Rebooted gang leader

Which is a legitimate belief, just not one that would be very popular on Titan.

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Thu, 2015-01-08 06:35

#36

Chrontius

Were I in the business of

Were I in the business of running a Titanian microcorp, I'd start a place that gave sponge baths, massages, and happy endings to people coming off a shift cleaning recycling vats. Pretty sure I'd control 10% of the moon's resources within six months. After what was necessary to operate my core business, the rest would be reinvested in a microcorp dedicated to building self-cleaning recycling vats, or designing a nanoswarm to do that for us all. The real money is in turning others' boredom into institutions you want to exist. Want a starbucks on the corner? Convince, trick, or demonstrate to your neighbors that That Guy who Likes His Coffee can do better than they can, and convince him to provide a beta-fork to run the joint while paying him with the smug certainty that he did know coffee better than everyone else on the 33rd floor. Between the daily inloads of memories from his forks, replete with compliments and 24/7 Gather Intelligence checks, and playing to the autonomy, mastery, and purpose based reward networks in the brain, I imagine that you could - with a little work, and no capitalism - cause a coffee shop serving your whim to be created to cater toward your needs. Granted, when I say to my boss "I prefer to resolve conflicts by considering all sides and presenting a win/win solution to all parties", I really mean "I prefer to get what I want by showing the other parties how to get what they want by serving my interests." The real magic is in making that approach easy and rewarding for everyone involved. The guy who cleans recycling tanks 5 days a week in the meantime probably gets to spend an utterly improbable amount of kroner on the "provide rapid transit to infrastructure workers" microcorp, which provides him a reproduction Corvette in order to "minimize downtime" because people are so glad that they don't have to do it, and he gets to spend his free time figuring out what a Corvette would have been with a buckytube engine block because he's a gearhead and can justify the resources spent on a rapid transit project. On the other hand, being willing to do things that earn tons of kroner allowed him to decide what form such a project would take. I'm certainly not at my best at this ungodly hour, but do I make clear how one might enjoy "spending" kroner to "buy" influence, and how one could achieve their goals without simply buying things for cred?

Thu, 2015-01-08 09:50

#37

Space Cynic Space Cynic's picture

uwtartarus wrote:Which is a

uwtartarus wrote:
Which is a legitimate belief, just not one that would be very popular on Titan.

Ha! Guilty as charged, that does sound a bit like me. Although I guess I don't get why people who don't like sacrificing their own free time in the name of their community and participating in a big popularity contest everyone's forcibly drafted into are always portrayed as these self-centered assholes. I wish there was just some corner of the System where you could just do your own thing and not have to be enslaved to sociopathic corporations, to reactionary hate ideologies or to your fellow transhuman beings. I dunno, Venus maybe?

—

+Space porn -Space people

Thu, 2015-01-08 10:00

#38

Kremlin K.O.A. Kremlin K.O.A.'s picture

Kroner is currency, but

Kroner is currency, but Kroner is not money. Money is the currency of wealth. Kroner is the currency of power. Now for the Kroner trades. I would probably set them at about 10:1 in one direction and 5:1 in the other. So enough Kroner for 10 minutes of Qubits gives you enough credits for 1 minute of Qubits and in the reverse, enough credits for 1 minute of qubits gives you enough Kroner for 5 minutes of qubits. Of course, the reason such trade would be so easy to find would, in my Eclipse Phase, be the result of a long term, and competent, plot by the PC to destabilize Titan. I will write up this plot in the next few days.

Thu, 2015-01-08 11:18

#39

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

Space Cynic wrote:uwtartarus

Space Cynic wrote:
uwtartarus wrote:
Which is a legitimate belief, just not one that would be very popular on Titan.
Ha! Guilty as charged, that does sound a bit like me. Although I guess I don't get why people who don't like sacrificing their own free time in the name of their community and participating in a big popularity contest everyone's forcibly drafted into are always portrayed as these self-centered assholes. I wish there was just some corner of the System where you could just do your own thing and not have to be enslaved to sociopathic corporations, to reactionary hate ideologies or to your fellow transhuman beings. I dunno, Venus maybe?

I think that while there are some awful dark parts of the PC, it and the Morningstar Constellation have spots where things suck less, or are just generally fine working transition economies, where people work to get money so they get something better than cheaply printed discounted/socialized goods and services. As in no one starves, but the lazy bums who don't work don't get to eat steak and lobster. Venus has an aerostat that builds new aerostats and its a worker's run collective, in the middle of a hypercapitalist economy, because MC is really just a toned down and less antagonistic version of the PC. But there are also the brinkers where people could form ideal societies without getting tied up in the evil parts of the numerous politics. So I would posit that the sweet apartment, tons of pleasure pods, and a spaceship set up could be attained in a variety of polities, just not so easily among the very collectivist types around Saturn, and without necessarily making one a slave of a sociopathic hypercorp, a hate ideology, or enslaved to the masses. The reason why I read these sorts of threads is explicitly because while I like the Commonwealth and Alliance, I do look forward to ways to make them have some darker spots too, even if they are the unspoken or strongly implied "good guys" of the setting.

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Thu, 2015-01-08 12:14

#40

MAD Crab

So go to the Oort cloud.

So go to the Oort cloud. Nobody will ever tell you what to do again. Living with other humans means that you have to deal with social contracts. Like it or hate it, the only way out is to be 100% self sufficient and run away.

—

Thu, 2015-01-08 12:43

#41

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

MAD Crab wrote:So go to the

MAD Crab wrote:
So go to the Oort cloud. Nobody will ever tell you what to do again. Living with other humans means that you have to deal with social contracts. Like it or hate it, the only way out is to be 100% self sufficient and run away.

And it is only with post-scarcity tech that being 100% self sufficient is possible, but I don't think that is what Space Cynic is saying.

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Fri, 2015-01-09 01:14

#42

Erulastant Erulastant's picture

Space Cynic wrote:Fiction

Space Cynic wrote:
Fiction sure is a swell place to live.

Uhhhh... We are all talking about the same thing here, right? You know, that particular fictional game universe? Anyways, to give a calculated answer the original question (Since conversion is sometimes possible): A kroner has the value of 1 TB of qubits. 100 hours of HD video conferencing via qubits costs 20,000 credits. 100 hrs=360,000 seconds. At 60 fps, two ways, that's 43.2 million frames. Let's assume the definition of "HD" is the same as current ones, for an approximation, which gives us between 2 and 30 megapixels per frame. (85 M-1.3 B megapixels). Taking a single sample image from the internet (I know, I know, small sample sizes are bad form. But I'm making enough approximations here that this shouldn't change much.) tells me that a 90 megapixel image is about 15 MB. So that 20,000 credits buys you between 14 and 217 TB of qubits, or between 14 and 217 kroner. [b]So 1 kroner is worth somewhere between ~100 and ~1500 credits.[/b] There were a lot of approximations involved, but this should at least give you an order of magnitude. The rates that moneychangers will offer may of course vary drastically. Bonus: Double-checking with fermi estimate

Spoiler: Highlight to view

1 hr = 1000 s, so 10^5 seconds of video, at 10^2 fps=10^7 frames Average our values to get 10 megapixels per frame gives 10^8 Mpel ~10 MB/100 Mpel ---> 10^7 MB=10 TB So 10,000 cred=10 TB=10 Kroner---> 1 Kroner=1000 cred

Moral of the story: Titan had better have some small divisions of the Kroner. Even scaling up the amount of data in an audio conference by a factor of 10 (Which is pretty high, considering that presumably there's better data compression than the "none" I was assuming), it's still about 1 kroner to 100 credits, and I think there's textual evidence that the credit divides into hundredths at least. (I'm pretty sure I've read "Centicred" [i]somewhere[/i] in the sourcebooks) Edit: Woah, I messed up my arithmetic at the end. Fixed. To the detriment of the Kroner's usability.

—

You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.

Fri, 2015-01-09 04:15

#43

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

I think it would be best to

I think it would be best to ignore the silliness of pegging the Kroner to anything, and just treat it as a fiat currency. (Indeed, I had completely overlooked that tidbit until this conversation brought it up.)

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Fri, 2015-01-09 15:08

#44

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:I

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
I think it would be best to ignore the silliness of pegging the Kroner to anything, and just treat it as a fiat currency. (Indeed, I had completely overlooked that tidbit until this conversation brought it up.)

I second this solution. It's a currency of influence sort of like another system of voting rather than an economic exchange of any material good. But I have no strong grasp of economic topics, so others may find a flaw in my thinking.

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Fri, 2015-01-09 15:48

#45

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

uwtartarus wrote

uwtartarus wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
I think it would be best to ignore the silliness of pegging the Kroner to anything, and just treat it as a fiat currency. (Indeed, I had completely overlooked that tidbit until this conversation brought it up.)
I second this solution. It's a currency of influence sort of like another system of voting rather than an economic exchange of any material good. But I have no strong grasp of economic topics, so others may find a flaw in my thinking.

"A currency of influence" - that's literally exactly what Kroner are, as opposed to your reputation or your voting power. The power of the purse is a very significant power. Of course, I'm also seeing potential abuses open up...

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Fri, 2015-01-09 16:50

#46

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

On the topic of what Kroner

On the topic of what Kroner are, rather than what the exchange rate is: The difference between Kroner and good @-rep (the other economic indicator on Titan) is that you can't earn Kroner in other polities, and (though not sure about this exactly) you can't earn Kroner by just being a cool, interesting, or helpful person. You have to participate in the Microcorp economy. Basically, Titan is the ultimate welfare state (I say this without the perjorative), where you can put in minimum service and get an entire living out of it, but if you actually work a 9-5 beyond the minimum required service, you get Kroner, which you spend on deciding what things you like. It sort of rewards working hard or more than minimum, yes?

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Fri, 2015-01-09 20:03

#47

kindalas

Moderator Business

[color=red]We, the moderation team, believe that Space Cynic is in fact Alkahest circumventing a life time ban from these forums.[/color] [color=red]We have taken the past few days to review and discuss the evidence and are now ready to take action.[/color] [color=red]Space Cynic is now banned.[/color] [color=red]We consider the discussion around this topic to be closed.[/color] [color=red]Thanks,[/color] [color=red]The Moderation Team[/color]

—

I am a Moderator of this Forum [color=red]My mod voice is red.[/color] The Eclipse Phase Character sheet is downloadable here: [url=http://sites.google.com/site/eclipsephases/home/cabinet] Get it here![/url]

Fri, 2015-01-09 21:54

#48

Bursting Eagern... Bursting Eagerness Soul's picture

Space Cynic or Kroner?

[s]Which do you mean when you say "we consider the discussion around this topic to be closed"? Because I am kind of enjoying seeing what people have to say about Titan's economy.[/s] Nevermind. I didn't see that you had already answered this on the other thread. Sorry.

—

In other words, firing off a laser with a sufficient TWR for the recoil to be noticeable would require a post-miracle-tech laser weighing less than a disposable plastic spoon and powerful enough to shoot down Death Stars? -- ShadowDragon8685

Sat, 2015-01-10 05:43

#49

Lorsa

Bursting Eagerness Soul wrote

Bursting Eagerness Soul wrote:
[s]Which do you mean when you say "we consider the discussion around this topic to be closed"? Because I am kind of enjoying seeing what people have to say about Titan's economy.[/s] Nevermind. I didn't see that you had already answered this on the other thread. Sorry.

Discussion about the kroner economy is perfectly fine, and to prove it I will say something as well! One of the problems of certain large-scale communist experiments in the world has been that they have attempted what I have heard referred to as a "control economy". Communism doesn't require state control over WHAT will be produced as such, but this is often what have happened. It is easy to see why this is a problem; one person, or a few, can never properly judge what the population of a whole nation wants, nor what infrastructure is best to build. The kroner system is a way to maintain a sort of "market economy" over what is being produced while keeping the resource distribution separate (based on need/rep). This in contrast with a normal market economy where the resource distribution and resource allocation is one and the same. It is an attempt to run a highly socialist society without any form of state "control economy". If you do labor, you get kroner and can decide what is being produced. If you don't do labor, you still get stuff but you don't get to decide as much what this stuff is. In a way, I find it to be a quite intriguing system. As for the value of kroner in credits, I think it is quite high. Firstly because there probably are A LOT more credits floating around than kroner, and secondly because kroner must be hard to sell and require some serious hacking to transfer. This because I am pretty sure the TC has put in a law that says your kroner is personal. You can invest them into a microcorp, but you can't sell them to someone else. So this trail needs to be hidden. Now I don't know exactly how many kroners there are, but MY estimate is that you probably get like 50-100 credits per kroner (I mean seriously, credits are everywhere). It would be cheaper to simply pay someone to invest their kroner a certain way, but then you have to deal with them personally which could be a problem. Whatever price that would be is probably highly individual.

—

Lorsa is a Forum moderator [color=red]Red text is for moderator stuff[/color]

Sat, 2015-01-10 07:15

#50

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Lorsa wrote:Now I don't know

Lorsa wrote:
Now I don't know exactly how many kroners there are, but MY estimate is that you probably get like 50-100 credits per kroner (I mean seriously, credits are everywhere). It would be cheaper to simply pay someone to invest their kroner a certain way, but then you have to deal with them personally which could be a problem. Whatever price that would be is probably highly individual.

That's almost certainly how most illicit transactions with Kroner go. You bet on a chessboxing match with the Kartelyi, and lose, and they tell you how to invest your Kroner, and if you disobey them, well, they'll politely take you to a quiet, well-insulated room where you'll get an up-close and personal introduction to chessboxing, without the chess. (Or maybe with the chess, if they feel like being extra sadistic.) On the other hand, it does raise, to me, the question of how the Kartelyi pay you when [i]you[/i] win, as I'm going to take the liberty of presuming that if they disobey you re: how you want your Kroner invested, you're going to lack the ability to abduct a Kartelyi boss and drag him into a back room to tune him the fuck up. So it may be that your bets are your Kroner vs. something else, something more negotiable perhaps; perhaps credits, perhaps raw resources or finished goods. (Though I imagine that if you have other things than Kroner which you'd like to wager, they're only too happy to make book on whatever else you have, too.)

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Sat, 2015-01-10 14:34

#51

UnitOmega

Well, the beauty of being a

Well, the beauty of being a semi-legitimate business front is that the Kartelyi probably has legit fronts you can invest kroner in, in exchange for them paying you out in cash they get from their off-Titan interests, mostly Phelan's Recourse. And since the Recourse is a autonomist free-for-all, the Kartelyi can probably get their hands on whatever if you need a pay out. Cash, raw feedstock, maybe even a little rep scamming. I haven't checked the section lately, but I think Rimward implies that the Kron Katelyi take advantage of some loopholes in the Titanian system which allows you to abuse the rules to perform a legitimate currency exchange to credits of Kroner, and I assume that works in reverse, they could possibly transfer their cred reserves into marketable Kroner via some shady abuse of RAW. EDIT Here's the relevant passage, for future reference:

Quote:
KRON KARTELYEI˘ The flow and use of the Titanian kroner is heavily regulated in a way designed to encourage investment in Plurality-chartered microcorps. It’s a currency that is invested but rarely spent. Loopholes exist, however, and several semi-legitimate banks specialize in exploiting them. Once kroners move out of the microcorp system, they’re real money, a liquid asset. Sometimes desperate Titanians needing credits in other parts of the system make deals with these banks (many of which go badly for the person trying to change their money). Other times, the Kartelyeı˘ are involved in what amounts to little more than wire fraud. They’re red market operations, often with their central hubs located in places like Phelan’s Recourse or Extropia. Short of sending Labor and Finance Ministry strike teams to exact vendettas against the Kartelyeı˘, there’s little that can be done about their operations. The Kartelyeı˘ do have agents on the ground. Few have ever been charged successfully with involvement in money laundering; Kartelyeı˘ VPNs are a tough hack. The Kartelyeı˘ are largely of Russian or Ukrainian ethnicity and, in addition to banking, run almost all of the chess boxing leagues (legitimate and otherwise) on Titan.

—

H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Pages