Spin off from another thread.
Many uplifts don't want to fit in with the rest of trans humanity. Some uplifts wish to bring themselves closer to their natural mindsets and thinking patterns.
Is this an existential threat? Could Neo-octopi be a threat if they are able to modify themselves as the rest of transhumanity customizes themselves?
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Neo-Octopi Self Modification
Thu, 2014-10-09 18:00
#1
Evilnerf
Neo-Octopi Self Modification
Thu, 2014-10-09 18:13
#2
ORCACommander
I would categorize on the
I would categorize on the same level of threat as an extra solar intelligence. the key difference though is that they are already established in Sol, have the same immunological resistances and is fully adapted at terran food sources. this would actually place them above the extra solar thread because it is an internal problem.
as for modeling it out is difficult to say. the only example we have of sapient coexistence is homo sepians and the neanderthal. and the latter despite being near identical of ourselves and genetically compatible for cross breeding went extinct. the other big problem is this was all prehistory with no accounts of how they interacted with each other apart from the limited genetic crossover.
the problem with non sapien species would be the very large possibility of them developing orange and blue morality and incomprehensible thought processes leading to no way to negotiate and coexist
Thu, 2014-10-09 18:23
#3
Evilnerf
I dont deny that such a being
I dont deny that such a being would be strange but does that make it less valid? Just because there is a case of Blue and Orange morality does not necessarily lead to them not being able to negotiate or coexist.
Uplifts have been modified to be more social and cooperative. If they wish to change this, can you blame them? If some tin pot dictator messed with their subjects to make them more malleable, then everyone would be up in arms about the violation.
Thu, 2014-10-09 19:51
#4
uwtartarus
It raises questions of how
It raises questions of how non-human can something be and still be communicated with. It is possible for something to be of equal intelligence as humans but because they don't think like humans, they can't even communicate with humans. There are some cognitive science and philosophy stuff on this I think.
—
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Thu, 2014-10-09 23:31
#5
ShadowDragon8685
Evilnerf wrote:How is sharing
It [i]does[/i], and if that doesn't scare the shit out of you, you're in a synth which does not need to excrete. Some asshole deciding to hoard everything for himself is a very real existential risk for a lot of people - it's why places in the rimward system, especially anarchists, place such a heavy emphasis on communality and sharing, and why hoarding resources is a fast way to seeing your @-rep take a nose-dive.
Even then, though, part of the reason it works is that people who are actually social actually [i]give a damn[/i] what their peers think of them. Sure, everybody's going to think that [i]somebody[/i] around them is an asshole whose opinions they despise so much they'll actually spite them, but if [i]everybody[/i] turns against you, humans (and hominids, and cetaceans, and probably the elephants before they went extinct,) will think [i]maybe I am the problem.[/i] They'll feel emotions like shame, or guilt, or will feel an intense need to belong and will try to correct those behaviors, even if they're so hard to do that they have to resort to asking someone to literally wrench on the insides of their head to get it done.
Because we want to be liked, we want the respect of our peers, we want to belong and not be [i]alone[/i].
Now, take a creature which does [i]not[/i] care for the company of its peers, not even those which are from the same background and origin as them. Such a creature views other creatures as merely a means to an end; it doesn't care if it hurts their feelings, either singly or in total. It doesn't care if its actions harm their own chances for survival - in fact, it may even determine that to be a benefit, because it deems them a greater risk to its survival than an asset. It doesn't feel [i]anything[/i] towards others, coldly regarding them as merely animated, thinking actors which may or may not pose a threat to its existence.
Sure, that could be an uplifted attavistic octopus, but it could also be a human sociopath, and either way it terrifies me. It's something that has all the intelligence of a person, and nothing but, at best, complete disregard for others, and at worst the sight of them disgusts it.
They should, but the hypercorporate yokemasters don't see it that way, and frankly, they've got the guns. I was pointing those out as places where it was [i]relatively[/i] easy for someone who desired isolation from others to go and find it, as opposed to micrograv habitats where it's much harder.
Frankly, radically mercurial octopi sound a lot more like exhumans than they do mercurials, and when it comes to exhumans, my stance has always been identical to my stance on exsurgents: nuke it from orbit; it's the only way to be sure.
Really, if something is fundamentally incapable of regarding you as anything more than a resource to be gained from, without even the tiniest shred of regard for you as a person, if something is fundamentally unable to socialize with you, it's best left alone if it's nonthreatening, or eliminated if it is.
Does a sociopath who has not (yet) committed a crime have less right to self-determination and agency than anyone else? Does a would-be tyrant who has not (yet) committed a crime have less right to self-determination and agency than anyone else? Does an exhuman who has not (yet) committed a crime have less right to self-determination and agency than anyone else? Does an exsurgent who has not (yet) committed a crime have less right to self-determination and agency than anyone else? Does a TITAN which has not (yet) committed a crime have less right to self-determination and agency than anyone else?
Where do [i]you[/i] draw the line? A sociopath is, at best, fundamentally uncaring of others. They [i]use[/i], and if they have no further use, they discard. Often enough for it not to be inconsequential, they decide that they enjoy hurting or killing others, and will do so simply for pleasure, and even more than those who turn out to derive pleasure from sadism will make the coldly rational choice to predate upon others when the rewards outweigh the risks.
Granted, anyone [i]can[/i] be pushed to such extremes, but it takes similar extremes of deprivation and hopelessness to push someone to prey on someone else, and in all the right-thinking parts of transhuman society, steps are taken to ensure that nobody hits that kind of rock-bottom, specifically [i]so they won't[/i] feel pushed into those kinds of measures. And other than extreme deprivation or sociopathy, properly socialized people wouldn't consider, say, shooting a wandering outsider and taking his stuff for your own, because it goes against basically everything we're socialized for - considering other people as having moral worth, considering them people like us, etcetera.
Sociopaths... Don't. They don't see "a person like me," they see "that potentially-dangerous, potentially-useful sapient Other." A sociopath has no regard for the right to self-determination, or the agency, of others.
Frankly, I don't see why someone who doesn't have any regard for those qualities in persons who are not them should have those rights respected for them, and when they raise those questions, I see nothing but a cynical, cold ploy to play on the feelings and socializations of others, to their own benefit and to the others' detriment.
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Thu, 2014-10-09 23:44
#6
Erulastant
ShadowDragon wrote:
Yes, actually. A fundamental right to self-determination is one of the axioms of most moral systems. You don't just get to throw it out because something is too different from you.
So... You're afraid of sociopaths, octopodes, and exhumans because they might feel about you slightly more charitably than you feel about them? Because you don't even seem to see them as potentially useful, just as a potentially dangerous other to be killed on sight.
—
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
Fri, 2014-10-10 01:10
#7
Evilnerf
Quote:Where do you draw the
I fail to see how a Neo-Octopi, left to it's own devices would suddenly turn into some socipathic or sadistic monster.
A desire for solitude is not a crime, and there is nothing inherently dangerous about the Octopi mindset (except perhaps for the fact they are carnivorous species, but then again, so are humans, dolphins, and cetaceans).
Fri, 2014-10-10 06:08
#8
ThatWhichNeverWas
Thought this was about advanced octopod morphs. I am sad now.
The problem is IMO that human societies are built around some level of mutual trust created by commonalities of worldview - "I won't hurt you if you don't hurt me".
If it is known that one of the parties does not share that worldview, then that basic level of trust becomes impossible.
It doesn't matter if the individual does something or not because the foundation upon which "innocent until proven guilty" is built no longer exists - you cannot use human moral systems to evaluate non-human behavior.
Sure, the primal-octopus mindset may me "valid", but that doesn't mean that it's "tenable", at least in the current state of affairs.
—
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few.
But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Sat, 2014-10-11 03:55
#9
Chrontius
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Does a
Moreso than many others, yes - a TITAN that has not yet gone technical on us is, in no particular order: A moral agent, and a very capable person, but a person. A powerful ally - if it had fallback loyalty programming, or time to engage in some introspection, they could have some residual duty or loyalty to humanity, and probably could be motivated with a common enemy. Useful for figuring out a countermeasure for the exsurgent virus - why wasn't this particular AGI compromised?
Sat, 2014-10-11 20:39
#10
Panoptic
Certain levels of sociopathic
Certain levels of sociopathic traits can make an individual valuable to society. Intense focus and disregard for risks to personal safety are very useful to special forces and firefighters. A sociopath who makes a rational decision that mutual gain is superior to say mass murder is a boon to a society, not a non-human to be gunned down.
Of course, these benefits need to be weighed against risks for non-sociopaths. Apply as required to increasingly inhuman beings.
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