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Conans

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browwiw browwiw's picture
Conans
This biomorph idea is based heavily off of the Variant 13 genetically modified humans in Richard K Morgan's novel [i]Thirteen[/i]. In a nutshell, 13s are physically enhanced super soldiers, but their neurology (most notably their limbic systems) is based off of early hunter/gather humans. Their brain structure pre-agricultural and pre-societal. Not only are all 13s male, they are all hyper Alpha-males. While they are excellent combatants and warriors, their anti-social (technically, 'pre-social') personalities and behavior patterns makes 13s terrible soldiers. I'm cribbing the name 'Conan' for this biomorph because I read a large collection of Robert E. Howard short stories before reading [i]Thirteen[/i] and, well, a barbarian is a barbarian. I'm adapting the Variant 13 concept to the EP 'verse by assuming that Conans were the predecessors of the Furies. In fact, Conans are the reason why Furies are all female and sequenced with extra pack mentality genes. Conans were originally bred by various Earth nations around BF 40 to act as special forces and shock troopers in the constant conflicts around the globe and solar system. Initially, the Conans perform beyond expectation, proving cunning and tenacious in combat, but eventually start exhibiting anti-authority attitudes and disregarding orders as they gain more real-world experience. Mutiny and desertion is not uncommon. Those renegade Conans that are not captured and executed are either forcibly relocated to reservations on Mars or escape and infiltrate into the outer system. There was never a second generation of Conans produced, but much of the pioneering genetic research developed in their creation was used in the later Olympian and Fury biomorphs. Post Fall there are few original Conans left and most governments have outlawed the production of Conan biomorphs. Their genetically inherent antisocial and violent tendencies make them simply too undesirable for any community. Paramilitary hypercorps such as Direct Action refuse employment to anyone using a Conan biomorph. Of course, that is not say that there is not some small demand for Conan morphs. They do tend to be popular with mercenaries, bounty hunters, survivalists, and even overly ambitious hypercorp junior executives looking for an edge. Ok, so I have a pretty good handle on the fluffy background bits of the Conans. It's the crunchy bits of the Conans...representing them with stats and game rules...that I need help with. I have that problem with whatever system I happen to be using at the time. I'm utilizer, not an innovator. Physical stat wise I envision Conans to be some where inbetween an Olympian and a Fury (erring closer to a combat specialized Olympian). Mentally and behaviorally, I need help representing Alpha male oriented aggression and paranoia within the rules. Any help is appreciated. If I can get the biomorph hashed out, I'd also like to work on a 'Conan' Background for the original Conans still bumping around the solar system.

"Let’s face it: Most of us are just here to shoot stormtroopers." - Gary M. Sarli

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Conans
Interesting concept, "pre-social" humans - not quite sociopaths, but lacking the human tendency to form a status hierarchy. I don't think this was a real historical state among our ancestors (monkeys after all form packs many millions of years back) or even deliberately designed in: the creators wanted to make alpha males, but given the primitive state of psychosurgery that far back they got alpha loners instead. Humans lacking status hierarchy circuitry might be fun for other purposes too. I see them a bit like cats: why should I obey you just because you are my boss? This might lead to a paradoxical situation where some autonomists might actually think Conans are a good thing. If everybody were unable to be impressed by status, we would get a more egalitarian society (they need to patch the sociability somehow, though).
Extropian
browwiw browwiw's picture
Re: Conans
Well, Conans are wired for social hierarchy and living in groups, but the society and groups they are wired for haven't existed for 20,000 years. They are neurologically wired for a small group, pre-agricultural, pre-sedentary (non-nomadic) form of human existence. Conans meant for a brutal hunter/gatherer world where you have to be cunning a violent just to serve. As humans decided that they liked growing crops and living in villages (and thus have to learn to put up with eachother and be social in a manner unprecedented among the higher primates), these hyper males were either bred out or actively eradicated. IE, Conans are undomesticated humans. They are to modern humans as wolves are to dogs. To check out an accelerated example of what I'm trying to explain, see the Russian Fox Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox) and this RadioLab piece on a population of non aggressive baboons (http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2009/10/02). Fascinating stuff. You make some super interesting points in your second paragraph that I want to follow up on, later.

"Let’s face it: Most of us are just here to shoot stormtroopers." - Gary M. Sarli

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Conans
browwiw wrote:
Well, Conans are wired for social hierarchy and living in groups, but the society and groups they are wired for haven't existed for 20,000 years. They are neurologically wired for a small group, pre-agricultural, pre-sedentary (non-nomadic) form of human existence. Conans meant for a brutal hunter/gatherer world where you have to be cunning a violent just to serve. As humans decided that they liked growing crops and living in villages (and thus have to learn to put up with eachother and be social in a manner unprecedented among the higher primates), these hyper males were either bred out or actively eradicated. IE, Conans are undomesticated humans. They are to modern humans as wolves are to dogs.
Hmm, I don't think this fits with what we actually know about past human societies. Of course, past societies were *much* more violent than current societies, and hunter-gatherer life is and likely was typically rather violent. But I doubt there were ever a time where people had to be *more* violent than that: given estimated hunter-gatherer mortality due to violence (30-50% for some groups!) even a slight increase in violence would have been enough to wipe them out. Small hunter-gatherer bands typically do not have much social hierarchy, but this might be just a result of them being small: when they become large they tend towards "big man"-societies. But I think you are right that there were personality types that would have thrived in a hunter-gatherer band existence that lost out as people became agricultural and/or developed larger, more complex societies. The ruthless alpha-male who grabs all the women as his and bullies the men into submission only survives if he is not too dependent on the betas cooperating - when there are too many others around, the risk of a dagger in the back becomes very high. Different societies reward different traits - people in the autism spectrum are doing great in the Internet world. In EP being a super-flexible creative with great psychological resilience and few qualms about using radical technology is a winning combination, while social skills may have lost much (but not all) importance. The authoritarian rule-follower who did so great in old hierarchical agricultural societies is suddenly a total loser, except in the Jovian Republic. Hmm, a morph or neurohack to make people more autarchic? Sounds like just the thing the brainhackers at Phelan's Recourse may be messing with. "This mindware groks open source societies natively, and is almost compatible with a human limbic system..."
Extropian
killj0y killj0y's picture
Re: Conans
it's like a morph designer watched die hard, predator, rambo et al. and thought that was the best way to make a warrior. Putting the nano-tech cart before the horse and making the thing before doing any actual research into how to fight or how people would react. I can see that happening a lot in a see-want-have society. Just because you can design a super-colliding death ray doesn't meany you should put the exhaust ports next to the scope. Base it on the Fury to start. Aptitude Maximum: 30 Durability: 55 Wound Threshold: 12 Advantages: +5 COG, +5 COO, +5 REF, -1 Willpower +5 to one other stat CP Cost: 100 Credit Cost: (Expensive 45k +) Mental Disorder: Impulse Control Disorder also possibly Compulsive Aggresion Disorder (solve everything with violence) blend to taste.
benji benji's picture
Re: Conans
Die Hard and Rambo had this "one-man-alone" thing going on, as do a lot of similar films. This leads me to: maybe it's less that they're based on Hunter-Gatherers (who often have limited societies, but societies none-the-less), and more that some governments wanted to replace the existing tactical special-forces units with units truly consisting of one individual. Making such an individual highly physically capable, highly cunning, and anti-social would make sense. You want such an individual to not only survive alone in the wilderness, but thrive their and not seek out contact with others.
Sepherim Sepherim's picture
Re: Conans
killj0y wrote:
Base it on the Fury to start. Aptitude Maximum: 30 Durability: 55 Wound Threshold: 12 Advantages: +5 COG, +5 COO, +5 REF, -1 Willpower +5 to one other stat CP Cost: 100 Credit Cost: (Expensive 45k +) Mental Disorder: Impulse Control Disorder also possibly Compulsive Aggresion Disorder (solve everything with violence)
Since they were supposed to be the predecessors of Furies, I would give them stats a bit under the Furies', as well as a lower price (both in credits and points). I would toss in a -5 to SAV (they are pre-social afterall, if such a thing is possible). And they might have some kind of social bonus for Anarchists, as they view them as independant and lone-fighters, not accepting any kind of order, superiors, or power but their own. Still, I'm not sure this whole concept is possible inside the EP universe, because the ego inserted inside the body would already be socialized from before, thus it would not show the strong tendencies. Maybe the body is stronger, or has a bit of a violent impulse, but that would probably be far from the idea of a "pre-social man in modern times".
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Conans
Note that IRL Conan on a "barbarian" have some unclear copyright issues, I remember that the "Detective Conan" anime series, was released as "Case Closed" in the States due to copyright concerns. Apart from that minor detail. I think the whole concept is possible. There should exist several prototypes, experimental & earlier models of Morphs; obsolete but still in use. All of which has various merits, flaws & compatibility issues associated with them. I'm still using my old telephone, despite its increasing desuetude & flaws. I think, the other concept works too, It doesn't matter what social skills a person had prior to transferring into a Conan morph. If the model doesn't support it, its gone. The mental effects would be similar to the transferring of a mind into a animal.
Decivre wrote:
Permanent ego damage (if not straight vapor production) is all but guaranteed. http://www.eclipsephase.com/animal-morphs-mental-effects
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Conans
If I was going to design the Conan (which I would probably actually name the "Ares" to stick with the Fury's greek naming scheme), I would probably make it more powerful than the Fury. Chances are that they had to [i]tone things down[/i] with designing the Fury, due to its irrational actions. I'd stat it out as a Fury with pheromones which act similarly to one of the combat drugs (perhaps BringIt or something custom-designed)... and a level 1 morph addiction to the use of that pheromone (to represent how difficult it is to stay in control). +10 WIL instead of +5, and Neurachem level 2.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
killj0y killj0y's picture
Re: Conans
on the subject of copyright i'm pretty sure that conan himself as a character is in the public domain. Hp lovecraft and Robert E Howard were contemporaries and lovecraft's work is in the public domain. If however you based the idea off the movies then you "might" have a problem.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Conans
killj0y wrote:
on the subject of copyright i'm pretty sure that conan himself as a character is in the public domain. Hp lovecraft and Robert E Howard were contemporaries and lovecraft's work is in the public domain. If however you based the idea off the movies then you "might" have a problem.
The character Conan is is a tenuous copyright. Moreover, it does not affect all characters named Conan, only those with his likeness. The name Conan has existed for long enough that it is deemed public domain (like most legal names). This is especially true since the character Conan Edogawa is actually named after Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, not Conan the barbarian. As for the show Detective Conan, they actually changed the name because they [i]didn't want it associated with Conan the barbarian[/i]. The shows image was the reason, and copyright had nothing to do with it. For the morph in EP, it probably wouldn't be a copyright issue so long as the developers do not use his likeness in designing the morph (and I doubt they would). Parody and slang reference are not affected by copyright. However, I still say the name "Ares" is more fitting for such a morph.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Conans
Conan might simply have been the nickname, especially since the morph looked a bit like a certain politician. BTW, most morphs should exist in several different versions and with different nicknames, trade names and styles. You don't just sleeve into a Menton, but the Plato IV.
Extropian
Young Freud Young Freud's picture
Re: Conans
Decivre wrote:
For the morph in EP, it probably wouldn't be a copyright issue so long as the developers do not use his likeness in designing the morph (and I doubt they would). Parody and slang reference are not affected by copyright. However, I still say the name "Ares" is more fitting for such a morph.
Agreed, although you could use other Greco-Roman mythologies. I'd really would recommend something like Myrmidons, which would fit at least with the created race motif, or Achilles, especially for the lone warrior motif. Or you could call them Spartans, but that's starting to become pretty cliched nowadays.
Arenamontanus wrote:
BTW, most morphs should exist in several different versions and with different nicknames, trade names and styles. You don't just sleeve into a Menton, but the Plato IV.
This, too. Whose to say that the Conans (or whatever they're called) are just a male version of the Fury, which I've always assumed was the GDS/Medusa Shield copyrighted name for their combat morph (especially given the similarities between the Greek Erinyes and the Gorgons) and also exclusively female (the same addendum applies).
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Conans
Arenamontanus wrote:
Conan might simply have been the nickname, especially since the morph looked a bit like a certain politician. BTW, most morphs should exist in several different versions and with different nicknames, trade names and styles. You don't just sleeve into a Menton, but the Plato IV.
Tough call with that. Many biomorphs (especially those custom-grown) will be gene tailored to a person's specifications. Lots more may be born from reproduction, leaving their model type difficult to label. It'd be very hard to tie a model name to any specific biomorph. However, I do see this being the case for synthmorphs.
Young Freud wrote:
Agreed, although you could use other Greco-Roman mythologies. I'd really would recommend something like Myrmidons, which would fit at least with the created race motif, or Achilles, especially for the lone warrior motif. Or you could call them Spartans, but that's starting to become pretty cliched nowadays.
Their cliché status was the reason I chose Ares, personally. :D Myrmidon sounds like a good fit. Personally, I always saw male furies as being called furies. The book says that they tend to be female, not that males [i]don't exist[/i]. I bet people can pay a premium for a male model, or that the broker will be willing to make a fury male so long as you also choose to purchase the endocrine control implant for it (allowing for complete control of the fury's hormones).
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Dry Observer Dry Observer's picture
Re: Conans
Decivre wrote:
If I was going to design the Conan (which I would probably actually name the "Ares" to stick with the Fury's greek naming scheme), I would probably make it more powerful than the Fury. Chances are that they had to [i]tone things down[/i] with designing the Fury, due to its irrational actions. I'd stat it out as a Fury with pheromones which act similarly to one of the combat drugs (perhaps BringIt or something custom-designed)... and a level 1 morph addiction to the use of that pheromone (to represent how difficult it is to stay in control). +10 WIL instead of +5, and Neurachem level 2.
I'd probably also increase its Durability, give it a *huge* SOM bonus and so forth -- maybe a +20 or something similarly ridiculous. But then, I'd also give it at least a -5 SAV and a -5 COG. Basically, a supertough, highly unstable combat morph that can be flung at enemy forces with utter disregard to the damage being done both to them, to "the enemy" and to any civilians caught in the crossfire. I think this is probably one of the first augmented humans we're apt to see in the real world -- not only do we have lots of muscle-building supplements and steroids, and too many organizations that wouldn't mind some supertough, berserker shock troops... But we've also identified a gene whose mutation can allow muscles to grow without much limit on the human body (and various animal bodies), thus creating supermuscular people and animals. Combined with other breakthroughs in athletic gene doping and specific training methods, and you practically have an off-the-shelf supersolider... just not one you can easily control or lead.

-

Thunderwave Thunderwave's picture
Re: Conans
$0.02 Has anyone here seen the movie Soldier? I'd imagine the "new models" being roughly what's described here as a "Conan" morph. Bigger, stronger, faster, and vat grown.
browwiw browwiw's picture
Re: Conans
I think every is concentrating too heavily on the physical aspects of the proposed morphs. Yes, it would have an enhanced physique, but what makes it really dangerous is it's sociopathic, alpha-male neurology.

"Let’s face it: Most of us are just here to shoot stormtroopers." - Gary M. Sarli

Janusfaced Janusfaced's picture
Re: Conans
I like the Conon concept, because it is a misfortuneed and failed challenge, not because it is poweful. Indeed, I am not feeling it is stronger than Furies. That said, I am fine it is cheaper in CP Cost. About Conon's disadvantages, I have a few ideas. 1: Limit Maximum SAV at 5. It means anyone with Conon will have SAV at 5 ("child average" or "awkward"), even if their base SAV is 30. 2: Lower other Aptitude Maximum. Many morphs (include Furies) have they at 30. But since Conon is earlier model (and unlikely to get any update), I am feeling they should be lower. I don't suplise if they are 20 (same as Flats). 3: If enough people know about Conon, it should have Social Stigma (barbarian) trait. After all, Conon is a barbarian. They will be shunned by everyone, inclulde ones respect barbarian's wildness and other barbarians.
Your average, everyday, normal, plain and dull transhuman Janusfaced's outpost(writtern in Japanese) http://janusfacedsoutpost.blog.fc2.com/
Dredj Dredj's picture
Re: Conans
browwiw wrote:
I think every is concentrating too heavily on the physical aspects of the proposed morphs. Yes, it would have an enhanced physique, but what makes it really dangerous is it's sociopathic, alpha-male neurology.
Just because you are a loner doesn't mean that you are sociopathic. Being able to act on your own is actually a sign of sanity. True sociopaths have a tendency to love being in groups. It's a misnomer that sociopaths are all loners.