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Exhumans: What's so bad about them?

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Tue, 2014-09-02 02:05
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Huntertalon wrote:I figure
Huntertalon wrote:
I figure there's not much physical difference between an Exhuman and a transhuman with lots of augments. I think the real difference is their ideals. Exhumans take sociopathic Übermensch philosophy to an fanatical extreme, and don't tolerate what they see as inferior beings. Kinda like high-tech Nazis.
Sounds like Ultimates to me, that second part.
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Tue, 2014-09-02 07:23
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Difference being, that
Difference being, that Exhumans cherish the inhuman while Ultimates are all about the human form and how to perfect it.
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Tue, 2014-09-02 10:48
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Sure, but that is what I am
Sure, but that is what I am getting at: the Ultimates are just as Exhuman as the clades commonly called exhuman, their only "redeeming" feature being their fixation on the human form. So it is okay to be a sociopathic übermensche as long as you are "perfecting" your body/form in a way that is compliant with most transhuman. So when morphological tastes drift and unusual morphological features become mainstream, will the Ultimates no longer enjoy their "totally not Exhuman" status? Will they become Super-Jovians, hostile biocons who threaten the growth of transhuman potential? Just a thought.
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Tue, 2014-09-02 10:56
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
I wouldn't consider the
I wouldn't consider the Ultimates sociopathic. They are very much mercenary and while they believe most of transhumanity as inferior and and flawed but they do not outright dismiss it like an exhuman would. if something new and advantageous crops up in n transhumanity the ultimate will jump to adopt it. Conversely if they detect a flaw in themselves they will work immediately to scrub it from the program. the exhuman will ignore the flaw if its not to serious simply because it is not human
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Tue, 2014-09-02 11:15
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
uwtartarus wrote:Sure, but
uwtartarus wrote:
Sure, but that is what I am getting at: the Ultimates are just as Exhuman as the clades commonly called exhuman, their only "redeeming" feature being their fixation on the human form. So it is okay to be a sociopathic übermensche as long as you are "perfecting" your body/form in a way that is compliant with most transhuman. So when morphological tastes drift and unusual morphological features become mainstream, will the Ultimates no longer enjoy their "totally not Exhuman" status? Will they become Super-Jovians, hostile biocons who threaten the growth of transhuman potential?
Your average sociopathic übermensche is a bad guy, but he's just a guy. He'll always just be a guy, even if he might become a prime specimen. Your average exhuman, however, might undergo a hard takeoff, jump on the exponential bandwagon and it'll be Fall 2.0. It's like the difference between a terrorist with C4 and ball bearings, and one with a doomsday bioweapon.
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Tue, 2014-09-02 12:12
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Smokeskin wrote:Your average
Smokeskin wrote:
Your average sociopathic übermensche is a bad guy, but he's just a guy. He'll always just be a guy, even if he might become a prime specimen. Your average exhuman, however, might undergo a hard takeoff, jump on the exponential bandwagon and it'll be Fall 2.0. It's like the difference between a terrorist with C4 and ball bearings, and one with a doomsday bioweapon.
Everyone has access to these sorts of superweapons in the setting, that's why Firewall exists, to prevent radical Bioconservatives from unleashing a TITAN nanovirus on a mercurial habitat, or to stop Barsoomian terrorists from using their homegrown nuclear weapons on major settlements on Mars, etc. etc etc. Firewall is not exclusively targeting Exhumans, as they time and time again target non-exhuman groups including Barsoomian terrorists, criminal outfits, and even legitimate businesses like Cognite. Exhumans are not always Singularity Seekers. There is no average exhuman, as the term exhuman is a perjorative term for the entire swathe of clades that seek to abandon human mental and physiological norms. Unlike the Ultimates, who while mercenary, do not identify with the rest of transhumanity, up to including them running slave forks as training fodder for their highly regimented corp of elite badass killers. The Ultimates uniformly reject transhuman norms except for the physical state and the money, which they use to further their unfriendly (if not outright hostile) organization. Exhumans can include Singularity Seekers, but you can find Singularity Seekers and other people who irresponsibly pursue Fall 2.0 stuff in all of the factions, including Hypercorp scientists chasing the bleeding edge innovations to make more money than the competition. Exhumans, as per Transhuman, are the sort to have mental disorders, modified behavior (and other psychosurgical procedures), and heavily modified morphs. (EDITED OUT FOR CLARIFICATION) Coincidentally, the Ultimates don't have any mental disorders or reprogramming to excuse their lack of empathy or (conventional, non-sociopathic Neitzschean) morals. EDIT: The Lost generation is stuck with all manner of mental disorders, AND are all infected with the Exsurgent virus's one, rare, unique and special benign strain, and yet they don't suffer the same level of mindless hatred that Exhumans do.
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Tue, 2014-09-02 13:57
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
uwtartarus wrote:Sure, but
uwtartarus wrote:
Sure, but that is what I am getting at: the Ultimates are just as Exhuman as the clades commonly called exhuman, their only "redeeming" feature being their fixation on the human form. So it is okay to be a sociopathic übermensche as long as you are "perfecting" your body/form in a way that is compliant with most transhuman. So when morphological tastes drift and unusual morphological features become mainstream, will the Ultimates no longer enjoy their "totally not Exhuman" status? Will they become Super-Jovians, hostile biocons who threaten the growth of transhuman potential? Just a thought.
No. They will become posthuman. Thats their whole schtick. They never want to diverge from the core principles of beign human. The Exhumans don't. They follow a whole 'nother path. One that by its definition makes them a potential x-threat.
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Tue, 2014-09-02 15:17
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
GreyBrother wrote:No. They
GreyBrother wrote:
No. They will become posthuman. Thats their whole schtick. They never want to diverge from the core principles of beign human. The Exhumans don't. They follow a whole 'nother path. One that by its definition makes them a potential x-threat.
That's the tagline of the Ultimates, but that is just their espoused belief, if you aren't 100% down with their neo-fascist notion of perfection, than their idea of the posthuman is bogus. The exhumans and the Ultimates both persue their own notion of what is posthuman, the exhumans have just gone far from the path of (trans)humanity. Any proponent of individual liberties is not going to accept the Ultimates' depiction of perfected humanity. Nor would the assorted Mercurials like Infolife and Uplifts. To claim that the Ultimates hold an exclusive claim on the "posthuman" goal, invalidates almost every other faction, creating a sort of dichtomy of "Ultimate Posthumans" and the "riff-raff." Exhumans are just as much an X-risk as Bioconservative terrorists, the Ultimates' eugenic goal, radical Brinkers, numerous other factions/clades whose actions, intended or not, could lead to the end of Transhumanity. I'm not saying that Exhumans are completely benign, I am saying that exhumans represent such a large swathe of clades including Predators (bad news, but individual) and Exoglots (weird but so far benign). Changing your mind (modified behavior and side effect, mental disorders) doesn't make you an x-risk. Not identifying with transhumanity (like the brinkers and Jovians) doesn't make you an x-risk. Changing your body with strange new parts and concepts (like the scum and mercurials and again, brinkers) doesn't make you an x-risk. Exhumanism alone doesn't make you an x-risk inherently. It takes other things, which is what I have been trying to argue. Some exhumans are x-risks, but so are numerous other groups like Cognite, the Lost, Zone Stalkers, or all of the Gatecrashers!
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Tue, 2014-09-02 15:43
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
If you don't want to
If you don't want to acknowledge how dangerous transhuman tech is and how much a problem that poses if you have someone that might engineer out their concern for transhumanity at large, then there's little we can do to convince you. It's like you're playing the blame game - Ultimates have bad intentions, Exhumans might have good intentions, so Ultimates are worse. That's not how it works. The reality is that Ultimates with ill intentions won't destroy transhumanity, while a well-meaning Exhuman might. That's the difference, and that's why exhumans are reviled.
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Tue, 2014-09-02 16:54
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
Quote:
Quote:
The reality is that Ultimates with ill intentions won't destroy transhumanity, while a well-meaning Exhuman might. That's the difference, and that's why exhumans are reviled.
An ill-intentioned Ultimate could certainly destroy transhumanity. A well-meaning transhuman could too. In fact, given how many exhumans tend to be isolationist, they're probably [i]less[/i] of a danger to transhumanity than transhumanity is! But they're 'acceptable targets' for xenophobia so we ignore that.
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You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
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Tue, 2014-09-02 17:12
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
While I'm not super keen to
While I'm not super keen to jump in and restart this discussion (since, quite frankly, this thread in the past has just been a giant circular argument), but based on what everyone has been saying, the conclusion that I can best reach from the material is as follows: Exhumanism is a philosophical ideal (which is practiced by groups other than just "Exhumans", as evidenced by it being a possible motivation for other factions) whereby one seeks to become more fit or better adapted or whatever by actively discarding or suppressing "human" elements, be it physiological or psychological. The term "Exhuman", however, is used normally by both transhumans and the exhumans themselves to designate individuals or groups of exhumanists who are actively hostile or indifferent to transhumanity, or otherwise pose an active danger. See Glory for example, where the exsurgents are mistaken for Exhumans by the local defense council, because apparently that's the kind of thing people calling themselves Exhumans have done in the past. Or how "anarchist" has been in the past (and is sometimes still today) associated with blowing up government buildings or assassinating world leaders, when technically that's not really required by the idea of anarchism. They pose an x-risk the same way Seed AI pose one (though on a much smaller scale) because by dissolving boundaries or altering behaviors, they may stop relating to transhumanity or transhumanity may become incapable of relating to them which will cause conflict and they might start expanding or growing beyond their reach. And it's the kind of thing you can't be sure of because unless you nab an Exhuman and give him a good long psychosurgical analysis, you can't be entirely sure what priorities they're operating under and what methods they'll use to get it. Compounded is a classification issue. Exoglots have a question mark after "exhuman" because they seem mostly alright, and if we call them Exhumans, we'll need to find a new term to classify those exhumans who specifically are the dangerous or hostile types. The Ultimates similar in that they have a posthuman goal, but to my understanding are aiming more for a kind of artificial selection process to improve transhumanity to that level, by suppressing or removing traits they see as weaknesses and promoting positive traits to build a better humanity. My best way to interpret what I feel like their goal is like is that they want to become more than human, but they don't necessarily want to be come any less "human". Exhumans actively discard "human" elements to get where they're going. It should also be noted we're discussing the Ultimate's boilerplate. As a faction, they have multiple clades and subfactions within them, who have different views about how the Ultimates should reach their end-goal and what to do when they get there. Some Ultimates even hold a protectorate view of the "lesser" transhumanity (though knowing the Ultimates and their social darwinism, it might not be a pleasant protectorate). As such, the Ultimates are a risk (especially given Firewall's "don't put all the eggs in one basket" rule), but not an existential one. Their plans wont end all of Transhumanity, unless they take over everything and then something else comes along and kicks their butts. Most (if not all, by virtue of the philosophy) Exhumans actively cease to identify as human, and their plans, motivations or just general indifference could put the stability of transhumanity at risk. tl;dr Exhumanism =/= Exhumans and Ultimates are probably assholes, but not cosmic level assholes
—
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
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Tue, 2014-09-02 18:39
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
uwtartarus wrote:And yet both
uwtartarus wrote:
And yet both Singularity Seekers and Exhumans are a character option, but other than the Lost and other Psi users, Exsurgents are not a character option. Exhumans are as inherently dangerous as the Ultimates or any Brinker groups. In fact the "We Come to Probe You" and the Exoglots are two examples of Exhumans that are tolerated despite their radical beliefs.
Man, those Exoglots. I really wish I knew what they were up to. What are they building in there?
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J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
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Tue, 2014-09-02 19:09
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Smokeskin wrote:If you don't
Smokeskin wrote:
If you don't want to acknowledge how [b]dangerous transhuman tech[/b] is and how much a problem that poses if you have someone that might engineer out their concern for transhumanity at large, then there's little we can do to convince you. It's like you're playing the blame game - Ultimates have bad intentions, Exhumans might have good intentions, so Ultimates are worse. That's not how it works. The reality is that Ultimates with ill intentions won't destroy transhumanity, while a well-meaning Exhuman might. That's the difference, and that's why exhumans are reviled.
I really think you are mixing Singularity Seeker and Exhuman up. Emphasis mine. Hell, even hypercapitalists put profits ahead of fuzzy feelings like empathy. All I am saying is that the Ultimates are organized and are just exhumans with a human-form fetish. This in fact makes them worse. One lone cannibal Predator? Bad. An entire faction of socipathic Neitzschean wannabes? Much worse. Said faction immersed among the rest of the "weaklings" that they have zero compassion for? The worst. Ultimates lurk in the most secure places and loyalty does not infact buy their allegiance. They serve a higher cause, their's, a neo-fascist eugenic philosophy that puts Transhumanity in a bin of weaklings and genetic filth. Lone exhumans? Definitely don't just trust them, but the Ultimates are clearly a bit worse. This human notion of an "Alien Other" is exactly the sort of prejudice that Exhumans seek to remove. The perfected posthuman will not have such an irrational fear of the stranger. Healthy respect for the unknown, sure, but a blind hatred, that is the human atavism to be abandoned.
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Wed, 2014-09-03 02:22
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
uwtartarus wrote:Smokeskin
uwtartarus wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
If you don't want to acknowledge how [b]dangerous transhuman tech[/b] is and how much a problem that poses if you have someone that might engineer out their concern for transhumanity at large, then there's little we can do to convince you. It's like you're playing the blame game - Ultimates have bad intentions, Exhumans might have good intentions, so Ultimates are worse. That's not how it works. The reality is that Ultimates with ill intentions won't destroy transhumanity, while a well-meaning Exhuman might. That's the difference, and that's why exhumans are reviled.
I really think you are mixing Singularity Seeker and Exhuman up. Emphasis mine.
Some are, and they're not the only kind of exhuman with a similar threat profile. The benign exhuman definition you're using is not canon. EP core page 80: EXHUMANS Memes: Adaptability, Hyper-Evolution, Singularity Main Stations: Unknown More than any other faction, exhumans seek to take the capabilities of self-modification to the absolute limit and become posthuman. Typical exhumans see the Fall as either a missed evolutionary opportunity and/or as an example of transhumanity’s inferiority and unworthiness. Though specific ideologies differ between exhuman packs, as a whole they seek to self- evolve to a more advanced state of being. To some, this means genetically transforming themselves into a top-of-the-food-chain, super-smart, survive-anywhere predator that can out-compete all other life forms for dominance. To others, it means bootstrapping their intelligence to the levels of the TITANs through extensive genetic modifications and pharmaceutical treatments or going infomorph and modifying their programming. A few are singularity seekers, hoping to find some TITAN relic that will allow them to transcend their current transhuman limitations, or even to find the TITANs themselves and be absorbed into their super-consciousness.
Quote:
Hell, even hypercapitalists put profits ahead of fuzzy feelings like empathy.
No. A hypercapitalist wouldn't try to make a seed AI and if they did by accident, they'd not want it to wipe out transhumanity. Many exhumans would gladly become a seed AI equivalent, or they're actively messing with parts of their psyche that would create that desire in them. And many would very much like it if they became powerful to destroy transhumanity and would go ahead and do it. Or at least they wouldn't be bothered by it, transhumanity being inferior beings and all.
Quote:
This human notion of an "Alien Other" is exactly the sort of prejudice that Exhumans seek to remove. The perfected posthuman will not have such an irrational fear of the stranger. Healthy respect for the unknown, sure, but a blind hatred, that is the human atavism to be abandoned.
It is not an irrational fear. Have you ever looked into the research on friendly AI, or existential risks in a technological singularity intelligence explosion, or similar subjects? When we look at existential threats, the consensus is that AIs are the biggest threat facing humanity - it is this concept that is explored with EP's Fall scenario (though in EP humanity was miraculously saved when the TITANs just left). The exhumans have a similar threat profile. Are you arguing that we should just let steong AIs have whatever motivational goal system they want because they're sentient entities and we have no right to exert mind control over them? On the surface, I understand the philosofical reason for thinking like that, but it is insanely risky and such an approach could easily wipe out humanity (many current thinkers would say it was nearly inevitable).
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Wed, 2014-09-03 03:34
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Fair points, but I am less
Fair points, but I am less arguing against anti-exhuman prejudice (though I do think some are downright blindly irrational about it) and arguing now more against the Ultimates who embody so many worse traits but get a pass because they take Mastercard and wear a human face. I am familiar with Friendly AI theory, I just think it is telling that the controversial space nazi Jovians and the almost canonically Neo-Nazi eugenics Ultimates were available in Core while it wasn't until the Transhuman players guide before the Exhumans were admitted. But they are admitted which shows a canonical exception to their availability as mainstream PCs status. Social Stigma (exhuman) is about as terrible as Social Stigma (Lost) or (Singularity Seeker), the latter I resolutely maintain are the real menace regarding The Fall and TITAN tech. What I suppose I am saying is that I agree with most of what you are saying, just disagreeing with the final conclusion, which I feel like you are saying is: kill all exhumans on sight, no questions asked. This I feel is ridiculous, all factions and clades between Bioconservative to radical experimenter beyond technoprogressivism can be X-Risks. TITAN wannabes are not inherently more dangerous, especially as they won't even be able to hide in plain sight unlike an unscrupulous hypercapitalist who cuts corners on AGI restrictions in order to develop the next best spam algorithim that ends up becoming a memetic x-risk, etc etc. If anything the whole adage about untrustworthy men comes up, about how you can trust a dishonest man to be dishonest but an honest one is just waiting for the right opportunity.
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Wed, 2014-09-03 08:23
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
I'll agree that there might
I'll agree that there might be agreable exhumans. The definition is maybe too broad to justify stopping all exhumans. The TITAN wannabes for example are kill or detain on sight imo - it's like a bioweapons researcher gone crazy and obsessed with creating novel diseases in his basement without safety precautions. That's worse than a criminally insane serial rapist, another type of person that even a freedom-loving person like myself would never allow loose. For me, the exhumans are dominated by the really bad guys like the singularity seekers and TITAN wannabes and the bad predator-hunting-transhumans-as-practice types. It is clear to see why these types are universally feared and reviled. If there are some good exhumans, I think they should call themselves something else. It's a bit like, say you're a moderate muslim and you'd like an islamic state in the same sense that some Americans call the United States a christian nation. But if you go around and say you're a supporter of Islamic State, people will get the wrong idea. If in someone else's campaign, the bad exhumans are a minority, that changes things of course. To continue with the muslim example, there are muslim terrorists, but they're so few that no one would equate being muslim with being a terrorist.
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Wed, 2014-09-03 14:30
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
Quote:If in someone else's
Quote:
If in someone else's campaign, the bad exhumans are a minority, that changes things of course. To continue with the muslim example, there are muslim terrorists, but they're so few that no one would equate being muslim with being a terrorist.
But people do equate being muslim with being a terrorist. People equate having brown skin with being a terrorist. This effect is going to be far more prevalent with exhumans because they are farther from our understanding and tend to be isolationist. If the only exhumans you hear about are the ones that destroy a habitat or devour an exoplanet colony, you're going to form a view of exhumans that by and large ignores the ones who live as peaceful isolationists, even if the latter category is 99.9% of the exhuman population. That's what I feel has happened in the books--We're given information that Firewall needs to keep transhumanity safe, so we're going to get an *even more* selective picture of exhumanism.
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You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
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Wed, 2014-09-03 15:10
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
I appreciate the difference
I appreciate the difference between "Exhuman" (as in further readings, the Exoglots are questionably exhuman and thus may be dangerous, rather than definitely exhuman and benign) and "Exhumanism." I personally think that the Exhumanism philosophy: abandon human mental and physical forms, is a legitimate philosophy that doesn't inherently represent an existential threat or necessarily require Singularity technology. But even the faction description mentions the remorse regarding the Fall, and in Zone Stalkers they mention that exhumans believe the TQZ to be a sort of "Chest of Wonders." The trick is that even if Exhumans (exhumanists?) are hostile to people, so are the Jovians, and I really don't think that the Ultimates are anything less than a highly organized, aggressive and hostile (despite their willingness to accept hypercorp money and contracts) force of exhumans who only escape the Exhuman label because of their human-form fetish. While they are a large faction with multple subsets, several of their clades espouse anti-transhuman philosophies, and even if they don't qualify as Exhuman, they are definitely dispicable in their own way. But I think the setting has done a rather decent job of painting everyone (with the exception of the space elf anarchists as everyone is so quick to argue) as having their own despicable trades and practices. Just think that the Exhumans get completely crucified by some as being 100% evil. Nine Lives is pretty normal and transhuman and they are arguably the worst group, irredeemably evil.
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Wed, 2014-09-03 21:40
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
I think we can all agree that
I think we can all agree that most factions in EP are assholes, in one way or another, and/or constitute a "threat" to other factions. The remainder are oppressed, isolated or have some other factor that prevents them to rising to the forefront. The beauty of the setting is that in addition, as factions are detailed, they also tend to have much more layers than that. Exhumans/Exhumanism currently lack a lot of that layering, so we just have to remain hopeful for future supplements in that regard. Until then, players and GMs utilize the material we have, which basically says If you bump into anyone who says its Exhuman, other than happening to stop by their hab and ask for a cup of energy, and they aren't explicitly working with you or in tandem with a larger community, they're definitely dangerous and probably hostile, so watch yourselves.
—
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
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Wed, 2014-09-03 23:56
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
uwtar I hate to say it but i
uwtar I hate to say it but i think your creedo in your sig is blinding you. you see yourself as exhuman but benign and when everyone points out how by and large your confederates would rather eat our faces you take affront. Your not able to make the cultural relativism leap to see it from the transhumanist perspective but conversely perhaps we are as well.
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Thu, 2014-09-04 01:55
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
Now see I've always
Now see I've always interpreted the humanitarian part of their sig as being something of a play on words, it's origin not being the word as we commonly use it but rather, a modification of vegetarian. Yum.
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You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
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Thu, 2014-09-04 02:28
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
UnitOmega wrote:Until then,
UnitOmega wrote:
Until then, players and GMs utilize the material we have, which basically says If you bump into anyone who says its Exhuman, other than happening to stop by their hab and ask for a cup of energy, and they aren't explicitly working with you or in tandem with a larger community, they're definitely dangerous and probably hostile, so watch yourselves.
If the source material only covers something briefly, that does not mean that description is the end all, be all on the subject. Think about a one page description of your country, and then of the complexity and diversity of the people, organizations and opinions in it.
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Thu, 2014-09-04 02:34
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
My creed is meant to play off
My creed is meant to play off the vegetarian notion (I stole it from TV Tropes, not nearly so clever), but one's desire to not let cultural traditions and taboos remove perfectly edible food fits the exhuman tradition. If an exhuman tries to eat you, kill em first! Just as if a carbon reaver tries to slice you open to steal your property, or if Nine Lives attempts to forknap you. I have no qualms against reasonable defenses, I merely protest the short stick Exhumanism gets over it's philosophy, yet indenture labor by hypercapitalists, central planning and general abuse of redneck Martians, exploitation and dehumanizing Uplifts and AGI, or the one that irks me the most, the eugenics philosophy of the Ultimates, oh those are okay? But anyone saying "human stuff sucks, lets radically alter it" has crossed a line? Nevermind that most of the Ultimate stuff seems really exhuman. Like I agree with them except get rid of the fascist org and the human body, and thus exhuman. Is it a case of "Rather the devil you know" maybe? If exhuman predators unionized and sold their services, would they then be tolerated?
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Thu, 2014-09-04 02:38
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Also, Smokeskin, I feel like
Also, Smokeskin, I feel like the Transhuman material which came out after the core material by some years divides the Core book's depiction of Exhumans into the Exhumans (including Predators) and the Singularity Seekers ("the Fall was a missed opportunity"). Both of which are also character factions now proper-like!
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Thu, 2014-09-04 02:53
branford branford's picture
uwtartarus wrote:
uwtartarus wrote:
I merely protest the short stick Exhumanism gets over it's philosophy, yet indenture labor by hypercapitalists, central planning and general abuse of redneck Martians, exploitation and dehumanizing Uplifts and AGI, or the one that irks me the most, the eugenics philosophy of the Ultimates, oh those are okay? But anyone saying "human stuff sucks, lets radically alter it" has crossed a line?
Whoever said these philosophies were okay? Certainly not the authors, who are quite critical of these acts and ideas. However, its impossible to deny that the philosophy and actions of Exhumans are far more likely to present existential risks to transhumanity than Martian discrimination, indentured labor, Jovian bioconservatism, and even Ultimates eugenics.
uwtartarus wrote:
If exhuman predators unionized and sold their services, would they then be tolerated?
No comment.
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Thu, 2014-09-04 03:27
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
uwtartarus wrote:
uwtartarus wrote:
If an exhuman tries to eat you, kill em first! Just as if a carbon reaver tries to slice you open to steal your property, or if Nine Lives attempts to forknap you. I have no qualms against reasonable defenses, I merely protest the short stick Exhumanism gets over it's philosophy, yet indenture labor by hypercapitalists, central planning and general abuse of redneck Martians, exploitation and dehumanizing Uplifts and AGI, or the one that irks me the most, the eugenics philosophy of the Ultimates, oh those are okay? But anyone saying "human stuff sucks, lets radically alter it" has crossed a line?
This is what I meant about you playing the blame game regarding exhumans. That's not the point here. This is not a moral outrage. It is risk management. It doesn't matter that exhumans might have noble intentions, just like an AI researcher with no ill intentions but who disregarded safety precautions would also be stopped.
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Thu, 2014-09-04 03:28
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
uwtartarus wrote:Also,
uwtartarus wrote:
Also, Smokeskin, I feel like the Transhuman material which came out after the core material by some years divides the Core book's depiction of Exhumans into the Exhumans (including Predators) and the Singularity Seekers ("the Fall was a missed opportunity"). Both of which are also character factions now proper-like!
I missed that, do you have a page reference (if you remember where it is, no need for me to search for it :) )?
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Thu, 2014-09-04 10:20
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
They want to devour your liver in a good way.
There are no nice Exhumans. Sure, there are people pursuing different mindstates and physicalities... but they're not Exhumans, they're Brinkers, or Mercurials, or Scum, or pretty much anyone. They receive the Exhuman title when they become actively dangerous. Sure, there are some friendly +technoprogressive +alternate neurology groups, and they may be mislabled as Exhumans, just like Muslims may be mislabled as terrorists, but in this comparison Exhuman corresponds to Terrorist, not Mulim. The exoglots may be exhumans... if they start killing people. The crew of the We Come To Probe You are explicitly not exhumans. You can have Exhuman PCs, but that means that they've realized that anything that's an x-threat to transhumanity is a threat to them as well, similarly to Singularity Seekers not wanting to die before they achieve their goals. The main difference between the Exhumans and the Ultimates is that the Ultimates at least feign membership in Transhuman Society. They're a cancer growing in the heart of the species, whereas the Exhumans are a predator hunting it. To paraphrase a trailer from The Chronicles of Riddick; “By the superstitious, they are called “The Hood of the Devil”. By those who have seen the towering statues left behind on dead planets, they are simply called “The End”. Ultimate. It is the name that will convert or kill every last human life.”
—
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
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Thu, 2014-09-04 10:44
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Smokeskin wrote:uwtartarus
Smokeskin wrote:
uwtartarus wrote:
Also, Smokeskin, I feel like the Transhuman material which came out after the core material by some years divides the Core book's depiction of Exhumans into the Exhumans (including Predators) and the Singularity Seekers ("the Fall was a missed opportunity"). Both of which are also character factions now proper-like!
I missed that, do you have a page reference (if you remember where it is, no need for me to search for it :) )?
Page 81 of Transhuman:
Quote:
[b]Exhuman[/b] Humanity is weak, and you intend to elevate your body and mind to a superior state of existence. You embrace new and developing technologies, no matter how dangerous and untested, to perfect your physical form and upgrade your mind. You intend to survive and dominate, no matter the cost.
And page 82:
Quote:
[b]Singularity Seeker[/b] Everyone agrees the TITANs were a problem, but to you they were also a harbinger. If transhumanity has any hope of survival, in the universe, it must expand its mental capabilities by several orders of magnitude. You have dedicated yourself to finding a way to achieve an exponential increase in intelligence and ascending to a new, god-like state of existence—whether you want this just for yourself or for everyone is up to you.
Social Stigma (exhuman) is about as crippling as Social Stigma (pod), (Lost), or (neotenic) mechanically speaking. Maybe the Exhumanism vs. Exhumans is the best way to reflect this then. Thus being an Exhumanist is preferable to being an Exhuman? Maybe I am just having difficulty with the "murder on sight" attitude towards someone based on their philosophy. Exhumanism is more than just +alternate physicalities, just as being +Mercurialism is more than just +Uplift rights. It represents an identity that defies the norm completely.
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Thu, 2014-09-04 13:30
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Smokeskin wrote:If the source
Smokeskin wrote:
If the source material only covers something briefly, that does not mean that description is the end all, be all on the subject. Think about a one page description of your country, and then of the complexity and diversity of the people, organizations and opinions in it.
Not to say that you're wrong, but this factor didn't stop people from say, complaining that the Jovian Republic as presented by the core was fairly flat. I mean, basically, people tend to be lazier than not, at least when presented with a rough outline. Unless you explicitly tell them "open invitation, fill this in", they'll probably take it at face value (which is some of the root of our problem here). There's not a lot of stated nuance to Exhumans. There's some nuance to be interpreted with their philosophy, but generally the setting seems to lean ThatWhichNeverWas' conclusion that "Exhuman" is the label for those who have actively shown themselves to be hostile and dangerous, and others are labeled as Brinkers, Out'sters, Scum, Mercurials or anyone else who has things like +Morphological Freedom and +Neurodiversity or however else you might classify the motivations that build toward Exhumanism. Now, Transhuman messes with this a little, by making it so you can play Exhumans and Singularity Seekers explicitly, though that's open to interpretation a little as well. But given that Firewall works with Ultimates and Criminals and all those other people we feel free to shoot in the face when the time strikes, it's probably not that weird for them to find the people who maybe aren't X-risks, even if they aren't averse to hunting the most dangerous game.
—
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
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Thu, 2014-09-04 19:19
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Thing to keep in mind:
Thing to keep in mind: exhumans aren't a faction in the sense that the Autonomists or the Consortium are. "Exhuman" is more a descriptor, even if some self-described exhumans use the word for what they see as a movement. (The threat of exhumans rising as a unified faction could become a whole campaign in and of itself.) As such, it's used to describe a threat that "mainstream"* H+ factions see from those who've gone beyond the pale**. Some exhumans might even find it a derogatory label! *if such a thing could be said to exist ** for some value of "pale," which may vary between polities/factions
—
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
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Fri, 2014-09-05 01:33
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
UnitOmega wrote:Smokeskin
UnitOmega wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
If the source material only covers something briefly, that does not mean that description is the end all, be all on the subject. Think about a one page description of your country, and then of the complexity and diversity of the people, organizations and opinions in it.
Not to say that you're wrong, but this factor didn't stop people from say, complaining that the Jovian Republic as presented by the core was fairly flat. I mean, basically, people tend to be lazier than not, at least when presented with a rough outline. Unless you explicitly tell them "open invitation, fill this in", they'll probably take it at face value (which is some of the root of our problem here).
I've been arguing against that interpretation of the junta a lot on this forum too :) I really don't get the idea that people think that such descriptions are exhaustive. I mean, iss most EP tech magic too, since they can't have components that are not described in the text?
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Fri, 2014-09-05 02:01
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Smokeskin wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
I've been arguing against that interpretation of the junta a lot on this forum too :) I really don't get the idea that people think that such descriptions are exhaustive. I mean, iss most EP tech magic too, since they can't have components that are not described in the text?
/shrug It's an ongoing struggle. Most people don't seem completely comfortable with the subjectivity of EP. Like I said, give them half a thing, and they'll more likely be lazy and take it as is. Or are just conditioned that way. Me, I like the GM discretion and the ability to look between the lines and build the kind of story I want with EP. My point was just that GM discretion starts somewhere, and in this case it starts with basically what Jack said up there. It's not the end-all-be-all, but that's the genesis point.
—
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
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Fri, 2014-09-05 08:31
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Something about the bomb-vest made me think he was up to no good
Sure, Exhumans can be nuanced. Each clade/individual is going to have thier own philosophies and physiologies, and thier attitudes are going to vary wildly. Some will want to cleanse the system of the plaque of humanity (uplifts are fine :P), whilst others will want to alter the minds/bodies of humans for thier own good - the only way for humanity to survive is to become something other than human, and it's for the Greater Good [size=8]Greater Good[/size]. The only thing they can't be is non-hostile, because it's a defining feature. Without it, they're just individuals pursuing non-human mindstates and physicalities to become a member of a new, distinct species. Nothing wrong with that.
uwtartarus wrote:
Maybe the Exhumanism vs. Exhumans is the best way to reflect this then. Thus being an Exhumanist is preferable to being an Exhuman?
That's a game I'd want to be in :D Yes, there's a murder on site reaction to exhumans... in the same way there's one for terrorists, nazis and KKK members.
—
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
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Fri, 2014-09-05 08:43
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
The only thing they can't be is non-hostile, because it's a defining feature. Without it, they're just individuals pursuing non-human mindstates and physicalities to become a member of a new, distinct species. Nothing wrong with that.
They don't have to be hostile. Someone going on an exponential intelligence increase (in the same way as a Seed AI) could conceivably very soon stop caring about transhumans (like we don't care at all about inferior species like snails) and have the power to do whatever it pleases. It doesn't matter what the intentions of exhumans are, something like Firewall is needed to sniff them out and exterminate them.
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Sun, 2014-09-07 05:23
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
As has been said, Exhuman ≠ Singularity Seeker.
Smokeskin wrote:
Someone going on an exponential intelligence increase (in the same way as a Seed AI) could conceivably very soon stop caring about transhumans (like we don't care at all about inferior species like snails) and have the power to do whatever it pleases.
A fact which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether their exhuman or not. If they're a Singularity Seeker then they're going to be hunted for the same reason we'd go after someone cooking up bioweapons in their basement today: it's ridiculously dangerous. What you need to be asking is “What's the difference between a singularity seeker and an exhuman s. seeker?”
Smokeskin wrote:
It doesn't matter what the intentions of exhumans are, something like Firewall is needed to sniff them out and exterminate them.
“Muahahaha! Our harmless bio-luminescent banana slug morph is complete! Soon we will erase our ability for concious thought, experiencing gentle joy at the wonders of creation and love for all creatures, and take our rightful place as the lighting system for habitats the system over! None can stop us now!!!!”
—
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
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Sun, 2014-09-07 14:23
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
I have made it very clear how
I have made it very clear how I understand the definition of exhuman - as it is described in the books. If you want to discuss the definition, let us do that. But please, don't use a different definition to make my posts seem stupid.
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Mon, 2014-09-08 01:58
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
You keep using the core book
You keep using the core book definition, Smokeskin, not the Transhuman definition, which splits the core exhumans into either exhumans (which does include the nasty Predator exhuman clades) or Singularity Seekers, who are the dangerous x-risk types. We are both citing book definitions, the trick is that the books seemed to have changed the definitions. So we are not arguing about RAW or RAI but rather which definition is more authoritative.
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Mon, 2014-09-08 02:42
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
uwtartarus wrote:You keep
uwtartarus wrote:
You keep using the core book definition, Smokeskin, not the Transhuman definition, which splits the core exhumans into either exhumans (which does include the nasty Predator exhuman clades) or Singularity Seekers, who are the dangerous x-risk types. We are both citing book definitions, the trick is that the books seemed to have changed the definitions. So we are not arguing about RAW or RAI but rather which definition is more authoritative.
And I am fine discussing that (and sorry, haven't gotten around to reading up on it). But when I explain very clearly what I mean, and say that if in someone's campaign exhumans were largely non-threatening, then they would be treated differently, I get a bit annoyed when I'm attributed the opposite opinion. There is also another relevant point here - radical psychological engineering. If coupled with self-improvement (initially or perhaps as a result of changing psychology) that is x-risky, I think we agree on that. But even in general, even if you don't go for a singularity, I don't think that radical psychological changes are safe. In the space of possible behaviors, most would be regarded as psychopathically cold, wouldn't they? It is a very narrow band of attitudes and values that lets you interact peacefully with other transhumans. Look at the amount of breeding and training needed to have even a mammal interact with us safely. A wolf is too dangerous. A dog that isn't raised properly is too dangerous. And that's something as close to us a social mammal, one of them even bred for servility. It may not be a kill-on-sight offense, but exhumans will at least be shunned like we shun grizzly bears.
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Mon, 2014-09-08 03:57
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Even in Transhuman, I think
Even in Transhuman, I think the biggest definition between Exhuman and Singularity Seeker is a combination of scaling and means. Singularity Seekers are about basically apotheosis, hitting god-level intellect however they can, and in previous works this is usually via interaction or study (though, if you're being a PC, not necessarily crazy unrestricted study) of TITAN artifacts. Exhumans seek to "evolve" or improve through some artificial selection methods which may be dangerous and irrational, but are based around a personal or group ideal of "perfection" or "superiority". They don't necessarily want to tie themselves down to the resources required to hit that "god-like" cap, or invest in TITAN objects, but are after a "design" for their own self (mind & body) to create an individual (or "species") which has posthuman survival capabilities which matches wherever design specs they're after. They're very similar processes and mentalities, but the goals and methods are slightly different.
—
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
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Mon, 2014-09-08 15:35
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
So two points
So two points: Regarding the difference between S.Seekers and Exhumans, I feel like the Seekers are trying to raise the height of thinking power, trying to climb the cognitive power ladder as it were, while the exhumans are seeking to increase the width of thinking power. To alter themselves in ways that are inhuman (but in a setting of uplifts and infolife, this shouldn't have the same perjorative that it does today when we speak of humans acting inhuman). I wholeheartedly agree that one should be wary of exhumans, whether they call themselves that or not, but I suspect all strangers as there are numerous faction in the setting who are perfectly conventional (or even regressive!) transhumans and if you don't watch yourself, they will stack you and violate your personal mental and bodily integrity. I just don't think that exhumans should not only be shot on sight, but chased down and purged. My second point being that the parts of exhumanism that interest me are the parts about altering the human mind state as I find a lot of behavior and habits to be unpleasant or disgusting, with the technology to change the way the mind works, why cling to these negative traits when they can be shed? I am all for other people clinging to their own prejudices I suppose, as I believe in pluralism, but I protest a witch-hunt because I want to purge my own mind of them. Sure, it may make me cold, but arguably one could INCREASE their empathy for transhumans with psychosurgery, and expand it so that it is easier to empathize with a wider range. To break down the tribalism, and other monkey behavior, to accomodate the wider range of sapient intelligence. I find the notion of increase empathy and the elimination of negative habits to be a worthy cause, and using radical psychosurgery to do so, even at the expense of the old notion of "(trans)human normalcy" is worth it.
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Tue, 2014-09-09 02:09
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
uwtartarus wrote: Sure, it
uwtartarus wrote:
Sure, it may make me cold, but arguably one could INCREASE their empathy for transhumans with psychosurgery, and expand it so that it is easier to empathize with a wider range. To break down the tribalism, and other monkey behavior, to accomodate the wider range of sapient intelligence. I find the notion of increase empathy and the elimination of negative habits to be a worthy cause, and using radical psychosurgery to do so, even at the expense of the old notion of "(trans)human normalcy" is worth it.
This sounds like posthuman - getting rid off the bad, keeping the good (from a human perspective). That's the opposite of exhuman, who as I understand it (even leaving out the SSeekers) are willing to shed their human notions. If you just want to get rid off hate and tribalism, that's not going exhuman. That's just using psychosurgery to become a nicer transhuman. Comparing exhumans to strangers in terms of how wary you have to be around them is a bit of an understatement. Humans under the influence of drugs, or with poor impulse control, or with problematic urges or mental illnesses, or lacking empathy; those are people with small deviations from a narrow human norm that you watch out for and generally don't want to be around. Uplifts and AGIs are engineered to function well with humans, but exhumans would have engineered themselves to be, well, exhuman. We can hardly get along with any animal, and exhumans would be even worse. I'd not go on an exhuman hab anymore than I'd go into a random zoo pen, and I'd not let exhumans on a hab anymore than I'd let random zoo animals be let loose. This isn't hate. It's just recognition that they are not likely to work well among other transhumans. Of course, there might be indvidual exhumans or groups of them who are Friendly, just like there are some animals we can get along with, and there might be aliens. Judging them on an individual basis is the only fair thing to do. But the default attitude towards exhumans would be "likely dangerous".
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Tue, 2014-09-09 06:22
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Quote:Humanity is weak, and
Quote:
Humanity is weak, and you intend to elevate your body and mind to a superior state of existence. You embrace new and developing technologies, no matter how dangerous and untested, to perfect your physical form and upgrade your mind. You intend to survive and dominate, no matter the cost.
Transhuman p81, emphasis mine Paints a clear picture. Also, just because its a character option doesn't mean that it works in Firewall, except it says somewhere in the books. Case in point: Shadowrun, not everyone of their exotic character options is fit to be a runner and the designers never said that they are. But to my understanding... a lot of people do not default their characters to be Sentinels, so having a group with an Exhuman makes sense, since you can either play an "evil" campaign or a campaign without one of the characters being in Firewall.
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Tue, 2014-09-09 12:19
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Ah, jeez....
Smokeskin wrote:
I have made it very clear how I understand the definition of exhuman - as it is described in the books. If you want to discuss the definition, let us do that. But please, don't use a different definition to make my posts seem stupid.
First of, I'd like to apologise. Making your posts seem stupid was the exact opposite of what I was trying to do; I saw a problem with your post, and tried to use humour to draw attention to it without becoming confrontation. I other words, I screwed up royally, and I'm really sorry. What I was trying to get at is that you've seemed to expressed two apparently contradictory positions. First that some exhumans may be friendly, and should be treated as such, and secondly that all exhumans are dangerous and must be terminated with prejudice. There's some interesting vagueness in the book definitions, both in Base and in TransHuman. The Singularity Seeker is very simply someone who want to advance transhumanity via hard takeoff, but the wording doesn't necessitate that the seeker be the one who takes off. So a programmer trying to create a Seed is as much a Singularity Seeker as one using physical/neurological augmentation to advance itself, or a biologist trying to create the ultimate nootropic to advance the public despite not being able to use it themselves. Concoredently, the Exhuman is someone who has rejected their humanity, trying to “upgrade” body and mind in order to “survive and dominate”. This is where I get the hostility requirement, because without it they're just people who use augments for self improvement, and that would include both my silly banana-slug cultists as well as uwtartarus's “refined” humans. They could be called posthumans instead of exhumans, but then we still need a distinguishing feature between the two... and saying that they don't reject their humanity doesn't really fly... they're rejecting the parts of their humanity they dislike just like the exhumans, they just have different tastes.
—
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
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Tue, 2014-09-09 19:02
Leodiensian Leodiensian's picture
I honestly kind of feel that
I honestly kind of feel that exhumans have a lot of.. I guess "wasted potential" would be the way to put it. Basically, if "not be human any more" is your goal, why would your only options be 'make self smarter' or 'make self deadlier'? I like the exoglots in that regard because they're clearly exhumans (though not explicitly stated as such) but aren't raving monsters who eat babies and can only think in terms of rawr eat babies. I definitely want to do a game centering around exhumans and the threat that they could pose if there was more to them than just some weird guys tinkering around in their space-sheds and periodically kicking puppies. For one thing, it's always a bit unclear how many exhumans there are. They're rarely portrayed as having large groups, but since they're one of the groups least likely to give a shit about forking, there could be tons of them. They're also one of the least socially cohesive groups, typically portrayed as having small packs or being solitary. So the idea for the game at the moment is that there's this charismatic demagogue of exhumanism/singularity seeking gathering together all the different clades and pushing for recruitment.
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Tue, 2014-09-09 19:43
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
I think the term "posthuman"
I think the term "posthuman" is the sort of perfected goal of transhumanity (the transhuman being the bridge between human and posthuman), and that humans, transhumans, and posthumans will follow a particularly spectrum or path, whereby the posthumanity will look back at what they were, and then what they became before reaching where they are. The exhumans just flat out hop off that train, pursuing whatever strange and nonhuman models they desire. My examples of refinement were merely an attempt to show a less hostile side of exhumanism, as the prevailing examples (like the Predator clades) have been nasty and aggressive. I think to be exhuman is merely to pursue the alien and nonhuman. The aggression, or hostility, is a sign of exhuman who are unfit. The ideal exhuman will dominate through cooperation maybe. Experimenters of weird new morphs can still identify as transhuman, so part of exhumanism is to no longer really identify as transhuman perhaps?
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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Wed, 2014-09-10 00:12
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:They
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
They could be called posthumans instead of exhumans, but then we still need a distinguishing feature between the two... and saying that they don't reject their humanity doesn't really fly... they're rejecting the parts of their humanity they dislike just like the exhumans, they just have different tastes.
But that is what they do, according to Transhuman. They reject Humanity as weak and seek something more superior. The Ultimates and Mercurials aim for the posthuman state. Regarding Exoglots: Please do not presume them Exhumans, it is stated in the book that no one is really sure. I think leaving them out of this discussion would help the whole debate. After reading through this whole thread... i think not many Exhumans identify themselves as such, since the word has a clear In Universe Bias. Which is okay in my book. But thats the thing, the word originates in the setting itself. There's plenty of definitions for "not wanting to be transhuman anymore but not being malevolent towards humanity". Posthuman, Mercurial, etc. Exhuman is the label that is used for those guys and gals who see the rest of humanity as a resource in any way, or dislike them. As Transhuman writes, they view Humanity as weak, why keep it? Why give anything that originates from primitive monkeys any value when your mind can do so much greater? They may even think of themselves as benevolent, but then again: This may also be true for the TITANs. So, you want to break off links with Humanity because you don't think it fits your lifestyle? You're a Mercurial. You want to break away from Humanity because you think its weak and not worth it? Exhuman. Its probably an internal decision and i'm sure Firewall monitors Exhumans as well as Posthumans. Case in point: Nomic
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Wed, 2014-09-10 01:23
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
uwtartarus wrote:
uwtartarus wrote:
The exhumans just flat out hop off that train, pursuing whatever strange and nonhuman models they desire. My examples of refinement were merely an attempt to show a less hostile side of exhumanism, as the prevailing examples (like the Predator clades) have been nasty and aggressive. I think to be exhuman is merely to pursue the alien and nonhuman. The aggression, or hostility, is a sign of exhuman who are unfit. The ideal exhuman will dominate through cooperation maybe.
So what do humans do to lesser species? We remove them or kill them if they're living where we'd like to build or grow something. We domesticate them and raise them on farms and eat them. We hunt them for sport. Exhumans don't have to be aggressive to be a problem.
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Wed, 2014-09-10 01:40
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
GreyBrother wrote:So, you
GreyBrother wrote:
So, you want to break off links with Humanity because you don't think it fits your lifestyle? You're a Mercurial. You want to break away from Humanity because you think its weak and not worth it? Exhuman. Its probably an internal decision and i'm sure Firewall monitors Exhumans as well as Posthumans. Case in point: Nomic
Fair enough, and in-universe Exhuman is pretty pejorative, and I would then be inclined to refer to myself as a Mercurial, but mechanically they seem to have broken down Mercurial into two categories "Uplifts" and "Infolife," neither of which appeals to me like Exhuman does. As of Transhuman. So I would concede that an exhumanist would probably avoid the term exhuman. Also Firewall should monitor pretty much everyone, and it sounds like they do. Cognite isn't exactly exhuman or singularity seekers, they are primarily a hypercorporation, and they are watched closely precisely because in a world of post-singularity technology, you have to watch everyone for x-risks.
—
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
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Wed, 2014-09-10 11:40
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Quote:Eclipse Phase, p134,
Quote:
Eclipse Phase, p134, Mercurial Faction Description Your faction has no interest in co-opting their true natures in order to become more “human.” You might be an AGI that does not necessarily intertwine its destiny with transhumanity or an uplift that seeks to preserve and promote non-human life (or at least your own species). You might even be an infomorph or posthuman who has strayed so far from transhuman interests and values that you now consider yourself to be forging a unique new path of life.
I don't see that breakdown. They give examples of AGIs, Uplifts and Posthumans, but the core-tenet is "I want to find my own way instead of being a wannabe-human".
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