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Grimoire module does what now?

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Tue, 2014-08-26 00:21

ticktock

Grimoire module does what now?

I've just finished reading the flexbot rules in Transhuman, and while I think they're pretty excellent on the whole, the grimoire flexbot module leaves me somewhat confused as to its purpose and function. I googled this and found a few discussions on here from the playtesting phase, but no real answers. My main questions are as follows:

Why does the grimoire have a ghostrider module? It can already carry two egos in its cyberbrain and mesh inserts, so what kind of usage scenario would require a third onboard ego?
The wizard module has Mental Speed; the grimoire has Multitasking. Since the two don't stack, they're presumably intended for use by separate egos running on the two modules. But Mental Speed is equal or better than Multitasking in every way that I can see, so even in that scenario it seems like another copy of Mental Speed would be more useful and I find myself wondering why the grimoire has Multitasking instead.
What's the actual benefit to using a grimoire at all in terms of hacking? Yeah, Electrical Sense can be handy for hardware hacks, but I'd rather just pay to add it to the Wizard directly than buy a whole second module for it.
I'm guessing the laser and microwave links are for communicating with offsite resources rather than with the wizard or other modules. This isn't really a question; I guess it's part of an answer to #3.

Any thoughts on this, or other issues I've failed to mention here?

Tue, 2014-08-26 01:09

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

3 Egos working in tandem to

3 Egos working in tandem to hack? No idea. The entire Flexbot thing eludes me. Major headache.

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Tue, 2014-08-26 04:00

Darn_the_Vargr Darn_the_Vargr's picture

Honestly...

I'm planning to build characters based off of these complex morphs. Swarmanoids and Flexbots are what I'm planning on starting out with. Should I go quad espresso or four beers for that evening?

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"You think that of Me? I! Am the ONE WHO KNOCKS!"

Tue, 2014-08-26 04:03

Darn_the_Vargr Darn_the_Vargr's picture

Why always Hacking?

Have you considered more practical and possibly lucrative applications? Grimoire is a word associated with books and data; since it already has multitasking, I imagine it can assist the other bots/egos by hyperbrowsing the Mesh and piling valid Research. If you read the Research section on Mesh research you'd see there's multiple steps, and so the more egos/AI able to power through that, the faster results can be delivered. The Wizard (if I followed well) can then parse it using Mental speed. Knowledge is power.

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"You think that of Me? I! Am the ONE WHO KNOCKS!"

Tue, 2014-08-26 19:13

ticktock

That's a fair point.

Yeah, that makes some sense. It looks pretty strongly focused on onsite activities with its enhancements, though - aside from multitasking, which is just generally useful (if less so than mental speed), it has the electrical sense, laser and microwave links. Of course, nothing says it can't also be good at research. I guess I'm just trying to understand the ideal usage scenario for this thing.

Tue, 2014-08-26 19:13

ticktock

Double post

Oops.

Wed, 2014-08-27 15:06

UnitOmega

I mean, looking at it, the

I mean, looking at it, the Longbow, Grimoire and Picklock modules are all intended to complement one of the other basic module systems (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard). They don't necessarily stand on their own, but expand the functions that core module can have. Longbow adds additional articulated weapon mounts and has heavier armor, the Picklock adds thievery tools to the Rogue (and also has Radar Absorbent so they don't clash). The Wizard module is spec'd for "Infosec and communication tasks". Now, obviously, Mental Speed is great for hacking/counterhacking, but all it has for the "Communication" tasks is a radio booster. The Grimoire adds additional communication methods (Laser, Microwave, Skinlink), it adds Multitasking and a Ghostrider. It adds Electrical Sense for direct interaction with equipment in the field, such as making impromptu "hard" connections (And also knowing where to stick those Grey Boxes). But I think more importantly, it basically lets you build a little mini-mesh server. You can host multiple egos who can take advantage of all the comms systems, and I'd say if the primary Wizard is using mental speed, somebody else can benefit from Multitasking. You can basically have an adjunct AI or Ego monitoring communication and sensor information, or conducting real-time searches while the primary ego focuses on computer tasks.

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H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Wed, 2014-08-27 15:23

ticktock

UnitOmega wrote:The Grimoire

UnitOmega wrote:
The Grimoire adds additional communication methods (Laser, Microwave, Skinlink), it adds Multitasking and a Ghostrider. It adds Electrical Sense for direct interaction with equipment in the field, such as making impromptu "hard" connections (And also knowing where to stick those Grey Boxes). But I think more importantly, it basically lets you build a little mini-mesh server. You can host multiple egos who can take advantage of all the comms systems, and I'd say if the primary Wizard is using mental speed, somebody else can benefit from Multitasking. You can basically have an adjunct AI or Ego monitoring communication and sensor information, or conducting real-time searches while the primary ego focuses on computer tasks.

Just a minor correction - the wizard module also has skinlink, so that's just a duplicated ability rather than something new the grimoire brings to the table. I don't quite understand what you mean by using it as a mini mesh server, but I think I'm starting to see some uses for the thing.

Wed, 2014-08-27 16:12

UnitOmega

Well, a portable server holds

Well, a portable server holds like, what, 10 Infomorphs? Complete with access jacks and mesh access. Between the Wizard and Grimoire, you can hold 3 Egos, more if you put a Ghostrider in the Wizard, and the open ghostrider means you can use it as a buffer to switch which Ego is using which module, so if the Operator Ego needs the Grimoire for something, you can buffer into an open Ghostrider and then to the unoccupied cyberbrain and back. The Auxiliary ego can then operate any mesh functions and do passive monitoring from there. So you can hold 3+ Egos and just host lots of informorphs or auxiliaries, or just use the two cyberbrains and have the two Egos/Forks work in tandem and able to switch back and forth. Actually, looking at it, despite it possibly sounding weird, it actually makes more sense for the Grimoire to be used by the operator, and for them to basically piggy-back an auxiliary who does all the Mesh/Hacking stuff in the Wizard. The Laser and Microwave links aren't technically articulated, so I don't know if the Grimoire can use them well, and since it has multitasking, it's much better suited to split its attention between physically mobility (since the Auxiliary can't control limbs) and other comms tasks, while the Wizard ego focuses entirely on mesh functions such as InfoSec. If the Egos need to switch for whatever reason, the Grimoire has the Ghostrider it can buffer the auxiliary ego through when it transfers. Doing so with Mesh Inserts means shutting down your muses and if you do it via Cortical stack, you're basically making a field backup and resleeve.

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H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Thu, 2014-08-28 00:20

#10

ticktock

Wizards and grimoires and egos, oh my.

UnitOmega wrote:
Between the Wizard and Grimoire, you can hold 3 Egos

You mean five, right? Cyberbrain x2 + mesh inserts x2 + ghostrider.

Quote:
and the open ghostrider means you can use it as a buffer to switch which Ego is using which module, so if the Operator Ego needs the Grimoire for something, you can buffer into an open Ghostrider and then to the unoccupied cyberbrain and back.

I'm not saying this wouldn't work, but it sounds hella cumbersome and complicated. I guess it's kind of necessary in some cases, but in general I think I'd either just run one ego on the whole thing with one module slaved to the other or slot a fork/AI/other ego into the grimoire, decouple it from the wizard and let it do its thing as an independent unit, transferring data via skinlink as required.

Quote:
So you can hold 3+ Egos and just host lots of informorphs or auxiliaries

I still don't see where you're getting this - what about the grimoire (or any flexbot module) allows it to "host" egos beyond those running on its cyberbrain, mesh inserts and ghostrider module? Actually, what do you mean by "host" here - running in a simulspace, locked down in cold storage or something else?

Quote:
The Laser and Microwave links aren't technically articulated, so I don't know if the Grimoire can use them well

I would definitely classify them as directional sensors, which would mean no use by... hmm. I think the list on p.207 of Transhuman has some terminology confusion - the first section lists things usable by auxiliaries, and the second part lists things not usable by operators. I don't know if the list as a whole is trying to detail the capabilities of operators or auxiliaries, so I don't know which of the two can use the directional sensors or, well, anything at all on the auxiliary module. Assuming for the moment that the second section is actually talking about limitations on auxiliaries rather than operators, the auxiliary wouldn't be able to use the laser/microwave links. You may be right and the intention may be for the operator ego to reside in the grimoire for certain activities, but it seems a little inelegant.

Quote:
and since it has multitasking, it's much better suited to split its attention between physically mobility (since the Auxiliary can't control limbs) and other comms tasks, while the Wizard ego focuses entirely on mesh functions such as InfoSec.

This goes back to my first post somewhat, but again I don't see how multitasking is better than mental speed for anything. In this context, both of them give you two mental/mesh complex actions per combat phase in addition to your regular action. Mental speed also gives you a +3 initiative boost and the ability to track moving bullets to their source and target (among other things), which makes it the superior option for physical actions in my view.

Quote:
If the Egos need to switch for whatever reason, the Grimoire has the Ghostrider it can buffer the auxiliary ego through when it transfers. Doing so with Mesh Inserts means shutting down your muses and if you do it via Cortical stack, you're basically making a field backup and resleeve.

Yeah, that would work, even though the idea of needing to switch bugs me on an esthetic level. I'll tell you why I'm asking about this - I have a vague character concept of an emergent AGI that started out as a security audit/pentesting AI and underwent numerous code forks and merges on the path to full sapience. It wants to continue its security work as a physical entity, and the flexbot is perfectly suited to the constant forking/merging idea, both for the AGI and the morph itself. I was planning to use alpha or beta forks of the AGI in most or all of the operator and auxiliary roles across various modules, maybe with a supporting AI here and there. I posted this thread in an attempt to figure out if a grimoire module would suit this idea. I'm still not entirely sure. Thanks for helping me poke and prod this idea from various angles, though.

Thu, 2014-08-28 00:52

#11

jackgraham jackgraham's picture

It has a Ghostrider because

It has a Ghostrider because you can only run pre-sentient AIs on Mesh Inserts. Grimoire is intended as a utility pack + teamwork bonus getter to accompany the Wizard. Yeah, the mental speed augs don't stack. But all of these new flexbot modules are meant to take full advantage of Modular Construction, i.e., they're still effective if split off to run autonomously (just don't get shot too much). If you separate from the Wizard module, your Grimoire no longer has access to the Wizard's mental augs, so the Grimoire packs some of its own. Basically, the flexbot rules are intended as a fun toy for all of the gear porn loving twinks in the audience. It's possible to build things that your GM will question, but that's part of the fun. I want to see what sort of insane flexbot fu emerges. :) UnitOmega's mini-server idea is a pretty cool start.

—

J A C K G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth! http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham

Thu, 2014-08-28 01:37

#12

Darkening Kaos Darkening Kaos's picture

jackgraham wrote:It has a

jackgraham wrote:
It has a Ghostrider because you can only run pre-sentient AIs on Mesh Inserts.

Which book is this in? How much can be run on mesh inserts? Obviously your Muse, but can you also run a tech AI as well?

—

Your definition of horror is meaningless to me....... I. Am. A Bay12'er.

Thu, 2014-08-28 02:39

#13

UnitOmega

A dev thinks my idea is neat,

A dev thinks my idea is neat, yay! To clarify, when I say "host", I mean that in relation to running the egos normally. Hosting more than one complete Ego is fairly noteworthy, I think. A Wizard+Grimoire can hold 3 on it's own, bump that to 4 if you tack on another Ghostrider into the Wizard (At least, I assume this would work). That's four full-blown Egos, all with Mesh access and all with their own Muse. That's a lot of teamwork going on. I'm parsing this in my head as I go along as much as you are, trying to figure out ways to get effectiveness out of the tools I am given. You could get really crazy and stick Multiple Personalities in there too, but that's probably asking for trouble. As for Mental Speed vs Multi-Tasking, there are some benefits to one over the other. And since a linked Grimoire and Wizard has both, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to switch between the two as needed, right? You just can't have them stack. Mental Speed makes ALL your perception very slow, so it makes personal interaction and some other functions a little harder, unless you do everything by text (and even then, if your buddies don't have mental speed, your writing might flow a little fast since you have so much longer to write than they do). Multitasking doesn't have combat applications, but due to the forking system the you who is the main Ego can focus on doing a task (like say, talking to people in meatspace) while your sub-forks compile data in real-time. Your character concept is pretty sound, and a Wizard+Grimoire would probably make a good Flexbot shell for that type of character. Obviously, some of the functions it gives aren't as useful to you, since you're planning on running it mostly with Forks. I believe (and will check later) you can just merge forks from cyberbrain to cyberbrain without needing to do a full switch, so the buffer ability of the Ghostrider doesn't help that type of situation (The you in the other cyberbrain is still you, so you can just pass XP back and forth or do a full merge and then fork again if you need the full integration). If you're actually running multiple individual Egos, you'd need that in order to keep everybody at full functioning when you move them around. Two Alpha forks are unlikely to have wildly different skillsets, but say, if you have one person trained as a typical "radioman" or system operator, and another as a hardcore cracker type, they may benefit from using different modules at different times.

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H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Thu, 2014-08-28 21:46

#14

ticktock

One or the other, I'd think.

One or the other, I'd think. There's a blurb in the corebook... somewhere... about using a different variety of AI instead of a standard muse, but I've never seen anything about having both at once. I have seen examples of people using forks of themselves or others as muses, though, so I'm going to have to see if I can find what Jack was talking about in regards to this.

Thu, 2014-08-28 22:21

#15

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

the Kaos and other AI's iirc

the Kaos and other AI's iirc are depicted properly in panopticon and are additional to the muse

Fri, 2014-08-29 05:13

#16

Darkening Kaos Darkening Kaos's picture

@ORCA

kaos is only mentioned [i]once[/i] in Panopticon in reference to jamming and blinding......

Panopticon (page 42) wrote:
A similar mesh-jamming effect can be gained by launching a denial of service attack against all devices in a particular area or unleashing a batch of kaos AIs.

I've also found this but nothing additional........

Transhuman (page 181) wrote:
You know what you can carry with you when you egocast? Blueprints. Skills. Expertise.

....and that was in a fluff section, so I'm not really sure if AI's and software/skillsofts go with you in an egocast. Be a hell of a lot harder for a hacker based character to start work without his/her tools o' the trade. Anyway, [/derail].

—

Your definition of horror is meaningless to me....... I. Am. A Bay12'er.

Fri, 2014-08-29 09:37

#17

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

OK maybe ep core book then?

Fri, 2014-08-29 09:45

#18

Smokeskin

I don't know what the books

I don't know what the books say on it, but common sense says that of course you can beam some software with your ego and blueprints too. Why shouldn't you?

Fri, 2014-08-29 21:44

#19

Darkening Kaos Darkening Kaos's picture

@Smokeskin

....that was just an aside, something interesting I found while searching for an answer to another question, that being - where does an AI, other than your Muse, run in your system? Does it run in a ghostrider module? (Relevance to OP, I thought I might get an answer for using the grimoire as a hacker's tool/teamwork) Share the mesh inserts with your Muse? Do you need to buy extra mesh inserts to run extra AIs? If you want to buy skillsofts, there is an augment that clearly defines its limits. That's great and useful. But, where does an exploit program run? Spoofer? Sniffer? Tacnet? I guess the question comes down to - How far can the mesh inserts be pushed? Don't get me wrong, I don't want numbers, system resources required, program volumes, that sort of thing. It would just be handy to know where things happen. If I want a security AI to protect me from being hacked, (when the basic, commercial firewall cracks), where do I install it?

—

Your definition of horror is meaningless to me....... I. Am. A Bay12'er.

Fri, 2014-08-29 23:29

#20

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

i believe its answered in the

i believe its answered in the mesh section. if a program can't get all the resources it needs locally it outsources to as many nearby devices as needed to not create an unfair burden. essentially true cloud computing.

Sat, 2014-08-30 14:03

#21

kindalas

jackgraham wrote:It has a

jackgraham wrote:
It has a Ghostrider because you can only run pre-sentient AIs on Mesh Inserts.

I hate to rules lawyer an owner but in the corebook (somewhere) when discussing muses it says that Egos can run in the muse slot of a morph on it's Basic Mesh inserts.

jackgraham wrote:
Basically, the flexbot rules are intended as a fun toy for all of the gear porn loving twinks in the audience. It's possible to build things that your GM will question, but that's part of the fun. I want to see what sort of insane flexbot fu emerges. :) UnitOmega's mini-server idea is a pretty cool start.

I'm working on flexbot murder porn. [url=http://i.imgur.com/iV22cY3.png][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/iV22cY3.png[/IMG]... It is less fun. I expect it to pay off. Kindalas

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Sat, 2014-08-30 14:33

#22

UnitOmega

kindalas wrote:

kindalas wrote:
I hate to rules lawyer an owner but in the corebook (somewhere) when discussing muses it says that Egos can run in the muse slot of a morph on it's Basic Mesh inserts.

I believe in Transhuman it says you [i]can[/i] run an Infomorph on a personal computer (Like Mesh Inserts or an Ecto), it just doesn't work very well. It also says that Flexbots can use mesh inserts as a buffer when switching egos between cyberbrains, but this requires disabling Muses.

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H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Sun, 2014-08-31 01:30

#23

ticktock

Citations!

UnitOmega wrote:
kindalas wrote:
I hate to rules lawyer an owner but in the corebook (somewhere) when discussing muses it says that Egos can run in the muse slot of a morph on it's Basic Mesh inserts.
I believe in Transhuman it says you [i]can[/i] run an Infomorph on a personal computer (Like Mesh Inserts or an Ecto), it just doesn't work very well. It also says that Flexbots can use mesh inserts as a buffer when switching egos between cyberbrains, but this requires disabling Muses.

Transhuman, pg. 211 says this: The neural net of a standard-size swarmanoid has the capability to actively run three egos. In effect, treat this neural net as a decentralized cyberbrain, mesh inserts, and ghostrider module. That's not definitive, but it clearly allows three egos running on tech that emulates the three implants in question, with no mention of restricted capabilities. I'm inclined to believe that mesh inserts can run any old ego just fine. EDIT: Also! The Infomorphs as Muses sidebar on page 265 of the corebook says: Instead of relying on underdeveloped muses for aid and companionship, characters may prefer to have a full-fledged digital intelligence at their side, whether that be an AGI, a backed-up biological ego, or fork of the character’s own personality. Alternatively, a character with a ghostrider module (p. 307) could have both, carrying a muse in their mesh inserts and an infomorph in the ghostrider module. This possibility is very useful for infomorph player characters, as they can ride along in someone’s head and participate in team affairs without needing a morph of their own. So, yeah - I'm still convinced that a wizard/grimoire combo can run up to 5 egos and/or AIs with no issues.

Sun, 2014-08-31 01:31

#24

UnitOmega

Right, found it. from p. 143

Right, found it. from p. 143 Transhuman, Infomorphs [i]can[/i] run on a Personal device (which includes Mesh Inserts, see 247 in the core), but doing so is a very nasty hamper since it sets the aptitude max to 20. Only one Infomorph can use Mesh Inserts at a time, two if you want to overload the device and make it run worse (and your GM says okay). I would infer from the fact that use of Basic Mesh inserts in this way nominally shuts down the Muse, it might be possible to still run the Muse AI, but this will overload the device. Not one to pick an argument with a dev on RAI, like kindalas said, but RAW doesn't say anywhere transhuman egos can't be run on mesh inserts in this way. It's super not-optimal though, due to the lower aptitude max and the restriction against Muses (who are fairly important to transhuman life and lack thereof might cause some issues), and I wouldn't recommend it. It's the infomorph equivalent to being sleeved a Case, sounds like.

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Sun, 2014-08-31 01:44

#25

ticktock

OK, maybe some issues.

OK, maybe some issues.

Sun, 2014-08-31 13:14

#26

jackgraham jackgraham's picture

Hmm. It seems I have been

Hmm. It seems I have been schooled. :)

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J A C K G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth! http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham

Sun, 2014-08-31 22:37

#27

Darn_the_Vargr Darn_the_Vargr's picture

I just find it funny...

That one of the developers flat out acknowledged the issues with twinks and munchkins :D Anyways, I think it would be cool to have a character that was a 10 egos in one modular cannon or hacking god. Someone mentioned a portable server running 10 informorphs above...what if you just stuck the best in there and used teamwork to multi hack several nodes at once? It seems like it would be nearly impossible to flat out fail. Also, about blueprints, whoever told you you can't cast them with you is just right out. The entire idea of this setting is that it's not gear-heavy. I actually had to punch one of my players in the face over this same reason. He was wondering how to get guns (he's a bodyguard/mercenary type) even after I showed him the several blueprints I'd written into his sheet. And the party found themselves into a vagabond-cavity on Parvarti with an illegal CM. Fortunately he got the hint that I was allowing him to fab his gun and armor. I try to encourage not investing much on morphs and gear, since you're not guaranteed to get anywhere with them. Especially on IS habitats. But blueprints should always be available to you.

—

"You think that of Me? I! Am the ONE WHO KNOCKS!"