One of my hobbies is hunting. And I'm a bit of a gun nut - sometimes I think that is why I hunt...
The other day, I'm at the shooting range to help out a friend who's looking to qualify for his rifle hunting license, and by sheer luck the guy next to me is lying there with an Accuracy International Arctic Warfare. That's the king of sniper rifles. The world's longest confirmed combat kill is set with one of these at 2,475 meters. I talk to him, and get to shoot of a few rounds with it, and it was just so calm and stable and easy to shoot with.
And I remembered why I hardly ever go to the shooting range anymore.
This is my rifle, a Steyr Scout .308 WIN (the cheekpad is a modification):
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/OR3qYvr.jpg[/IMG]
It has a sort of tactical look, but it is very, very far from a precision rifle. It was made for hunting and mountaineering. It is very light and very well balanced for carrying around, but the lightness also makes it very annoying to shoot. At just 3kg and very short and evenly balanced a shaking hand or uneven trigger pull will pull the shot wide. Compare that to an Arctic Warfare's 6.5kg and a lot of that in the barrel.
The truth is, I don't like shooting the Steyr. I love everything else about it, but trying that AW, I want another rifle.
So I've been thinking, and here's what I'm going to do. My sister has a Tikka T3 Tactical, and she has the opposite problem. She likes shooting it, but it has a really heavy barrel but a very light stock, so it is very annoying to handle because it is so front heavy. Here's a picture of her with it, check the thickness of that barrel compared to mine above:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/b5MVYN9.png[/IMG]
So she's looking to find another rifle, and I'm going to take it off her hands. Now, I think it is too front heavy too and frankly the stock on it looks so boring. So what I'm going to do is put it into an XLR Element Chassis. That will add just over 1kg to the rifle and most of it in the stock, making it more balanced and around a total weight of around 4.75kg, which I should easily be able to handle (plus scope and ammo ofc). I'm certain it will be a pleasure to shoot so I'll get back to shooting more.
And check out how awesomely cool it will look:
[img]http://www.xlrindustries.com/publishImages/Element-chassis~~element38.jp...
[img]http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv240/rockrat44/element020_zps37637e9...
Anyone else into shooting?
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Rifles
Mon, 2014-07-14 06:08
#1
Smokeskin
Rifles
Mon, 2014-07-14 07:24
#2
otohime1978
20 Years a DM
I've been in the shooting sports for around 20 years. Personally, the massive increase in cost has been driving me away as of late and I have been thinking of getting back into archery, but ever since Hunger Games became a thing it's suddenly because I "want to be like Katness" instead of just carrying on tradition. That misconception is driving me away a bit from archery. I hate artificial price increases because of gun grab scares... and soccer moms trying to tell me how to live my life, from guns to vaccines.
The furthest I've ever shot was 300m, and I can hit things the size of chickens at that range with irons if the rifle is any good (or my eyes are cooperating). But I live near a 1km range, and I would love to try my hand at extreme ranges in the future if more money begins to come my way. I want a beautiful Sako 85 LR in .300WM, or to build a new heavy barrel FN-FAL and accuraize it for a new DMR for shorter range work.
[img]http://www.sako.fi/images/sako85/feat/85_extractor_ejection2_2011.jpg[/img]
Sako has a nice three lug bolt which attracts me over the usual Mauser action with a two lug bolt for a more even holding for a tighter headspacing. I've seen first hand what a loose or inconsistent headspacing can do.
I've practiced with the FAL to the point where I can mag dump it into a space of a human torso at 100m. I think my height (200cm) really helps with controlability, most people can barely shoulder the rifle and aim, much less keep it on target (it can be upwards of 7~8kg). But I can't see many practical purposes behind such an action though. Maybe halting a vehicle? Clearing out heavy cover? Looking really badass and or rich? It's such a waste of money!
I've noticed my eyes aren't what they used to be too. They're getting harder to shift focal points and things further away are starting to become a little blurrier. I doubt I'm still 20/10 anymore.
Do you reload? We moved and never set the equipment back up years ago.
—
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time
Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
![http://i.imgur.com/OR3qYvr.jpg[/IMG]](http://i.imgur.com/OR3qYvr.jpg[/IMG]){kind=link}
![http://i.imgur.com/b5MVYN9.png[/IMG]](http://i.imgur.com/b5MVYN9.png[/IMG]){kind=link}
Mon, 2014-07-14 08:54
#3
Smokeskin
otohime1978 wrote:
I had an HK G3 with iron sights only for most of my time in the army. I could hit the 1/4 size targets (about head+shoulder size) fast and consistently out to 300m with a good range estimate, and at that range I'd typically get more kills on the reaction target ranges than the LMG on squad tests (mainly because I was faster at swinging to the target with the rifle, but over 300m hitting was getting really hard and would take several shots while the LMG would catch the target with a burst). I'm no where near as good a shot as that anymore though, all that range time makes a lot of difference.
I'm still fairly quick and good at moving targets though, catching a sprinting roe deer or boar is no problem. I once took out a running boar at 10m with my scope at x10 even - it's illuminated and I have a cheekpad so I just used it like I would a red dot sight with both eyes open.
It is almost impossible to stop even a normal vehicle with normal bullets. You need a very large calibre, and ideally also incendiary ammo to ignite the fuel. With rifle and LMG fire, you'd go for the driver.
As for clearing heavy cover, technically cover stops the bullet, while concealment just prevents you from seeing the target. Full auto against concealment is effective. The only time I was taught to use full auto with an assault rifle was when ambushing vehicles at close range, for hosing the back of troop-laden trucks and such.
With LMGs we used burst fire all the time. We had HK MG42s, that's an 11kg beast firing 7.62 at 1200 rpms. With that weight and rate of fire it made really tight bursts, so even at long range it was very good. Even if your range estimate or sight was a bit off, you'd often catch it with one of the next bullets, and we'd typically aim a bit low to increase the chance.
It should be said that I missed the close quarters course twice, so I never received that training (back then the wall had fallen but it was still mainly old-school infantry training focused on fending off the communists in WW3). They might be using the rifles on full auto there. It is very important to drop people quickly and even a perfect shot to the heart will still let the guy shoot back for 10-12 seconds, and many center mass shots will take minutes or hours to bleed out from. So getting a lot of holes in him is important, plus at that range many of your full auto shots will still be accurate enough to increase your chances of a hit, especially if you don't have time to aim properly.
I guess for you, the effective range to use full auto fire is just that much longer.
And finally, there's the whole suppressive fire thing. People just duck more and get more scared (and adrenaline and fine motor control shoooting doesn't exactly mix well) when they're taking full auto fire.
20/10, that's really good. I have good eye sight too, but at range stuff is still blurry with iron sights (I think it is impossible not too, no one has 300m of focal depth...). I thought it was really strange how the target would be blurred out over an area MUCH larger than my grouping. I guess the brain can make sense of it and find the center at some level, even if my "conscious vision" can't.
No. I don't shoot precision, and with a Steyr Scout, there's no point anyway. It's maybe a 1.5 MOA rifle on a good day.
I'm considering it with the new rifle, we will see how much I end up shooting it. If I get really into it and the factory ammo is the limiting factor, that would suck.
Mon, 2014-07-14 09:44
#4
ORCACommander
I love archery and firearms
I love archery and firearms but my current situation makes ex cerise of those hobbies only possible once or twice a year
Mon, 2014-07-14 10:46
#5
otohime1978
SmokeSkin wrote:It is almost
Even those really dinky daewoos with all aluminium engines? I've never actually tried, so I wouldn't know. Besides as you said, I would be aiming for the driver instead. But shooting through laminated glass is tricky, I've been told; and I never had the money/time to try and figure that out. It all comes back to money, yay!
Personally, though, I abhor combat, don't like getting close to conflict, and don't like aiming at other humans. Weirdest feeling in the world; never again. Yes, I know shooting is a martial art, but I would rather enjoy it as a casual pastime.
My FAL is around 10~11kg with NV systems attached unloaded and a full magazine is another kilo, and carrying and aiming that thing can become a pain fast. I have no idea how you guys deal with that stuff. My joints start to give out carrying 20kg of equipment for a few hours; and I just can't keep up. Like, you can hear my hip pop and crunch as I walk, bad.
But yeah, I know what you're talking about with the aiming low and leading up. SUIT sights on L2A1s had a single post that was hollow in the center, some had it on the top, others on the bottom. But the idea was to get the guy in the hollow spot or place the chevron over his torso and squeeze off 2~3 rounds.
[img]http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpeg/21a26e71cabb4c60217e2...
Image isn't mine. I have an argentinian STANAG claw mount for the rifle, and its reproduction scope exploded years ago.
Ugh, I hate that feeling, but it doesn't really seem to come up until I have had enough time to consciously process the thing. Then I can't stop trembling. My friend is addicted to it. Keeps going on drop towers and stuff to reproduce it.
Wait, what? On a good day? That rifle should put out 1.5~1MOA all day. Either something is wrong (when was the last time you checked your headspacing? Sometimes rifles can be a bit loose from the factory) or it's operating error. You said you only use factory loads, so what are you feeding it? Sorry, I don't presume to know how much you know about internal ballistics. I don't mean to belittle or seem like a braggart.
—
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time
Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
Mon, 2014-07-14 13:25
#6
Smokeskin
otohime1978 wrote:SmokeSkin
I haven't shot up any vehicles either :) That's just what I learned in the army. It's not just that you can't penetrate, it is also that there just aren't that many parts that will actually disable the car even if there's a small hole in it.
I can't imagine that laminated glass will be a problem for ball rounds from a rifle. Shooting out from a car could mess up your accuracy, but shooting in, that's going to be bad for the target. Expanding rounds I'd imagine they'd deform, but still go through and likely hit the target - but it might be in several pieces or flattened out, so much less penetration.
I'm a nice and calm person so I hate the use of violence against innocents and putting people at risk (like pointing your gun at them), but I like fighting. I left the army because of a knee injury and I was very unhappy about it, I really wanted a military career. It was at the time of the Yugoslavian civil war and I really wanted to go over there and stop the atrocities. With a rifle, a squad and artillery support.
I also like close combat, but that's another thread.
Wait, what? On a good day? That rifle should put out 1.5~1MOA all day. Either something is wrong (when was the last time you checked your headspacing? Sometimes rifles can be a bit loose from the factory) or it's operating error. You said you only use factory loads, so what are you feeding it? Sorry, I don't presume to know how much you know about internal ballistics. I don't mean to belittle or seem like a braggart.[/quote]
I know only quite little internal ballistics. I just like using the things, and you mostly need external and terminal ballistics for that.
I shoot better with most other rifles, and others don't shoot that well with my Scout either, so I really think it only gives out 1.5 MOA as it stands. I've tried different brands of ammo, Lapua, Hornady and Norma. Some ammo it REALLY doesn't like, I had it down to the harmonics of that thin barrel.
I had the gunshop look at it some years back but I can't remember how much or what they checked for. I'm not even sure they did anything than say they didn't take it apart and it should be ok from the factory.
The only thing I know how to test is for freefloating, and with a paper around the barrel I can't twist the handguard so it grabs the paper, so that should be good.
To check headspacing, I'd need special equipment for that? Or do I need to take a gunsmith?
Mon, 2014-07-14 14:49
#7
otohime1978
Smokeskin wrote:I haven't
Ah, right! That makes sense. It definitely wouldn't be good for the vehicle, though.
Actually, it's mostly a problem with refraction and deflection. Laminated glass is tough. Bullet deformation is also a major concern and can actually affect the flight path of the bullet. A lot of smaller, faster bullets get torn apart so badly they just embed in the skin and don't actually do anything, and if it stays together, it can actually change paths and hit somewhere else unexpected. Usually, if you're going to shoot someone through glass in a hostage situation, you want two shooters firing either staggered, or simultaneously from a close position using different rounds. Like an M40 and his spotter firing from his M16A4. The 5.56NATO is faster, impacts and shatters the glass first, and fragments apart so that injury on the otherside is minimal, giving a much clearer path to the target so the heavier and slightly slower 7.62mm round is far more likely to hit true. Gotta hit that target's T, you know?
A lot of precision shooting has to do with figuring out where the target actually is, because where he physically is and where he visually is can be completely different places. Ever watch mirages on roads and the like during the summer? Glass can have similar effects, especially when it gets thicker and adds layers of lamination.
I wanted to join the navy and become a pilot, but after age 12, I realised that wasn't going to happen. I love to watch and draw stuff and am pretty good with recognizing faces even if I can't remember the person's name, so I started to aim for scout sniper... then I found out that they didn't let girls in. I got pissed and went on to do other stuff.
The most common mistake is mismatched bullet weight/velocity to barrel twist, actually. Well, that, or a damaged crown, but that is visible defect on end of barrel. The Steyr is a 1:9" twist. Try ammunition between 60~70gr, but try not to go higher than that. Lighter should be okay. Most factory load velocities are dependent upon the grains because they use similar powders between everything. I'm guessing the rounds the Steyr didn't like were heavier than 75gr?
My friend had this beautiful AR-15 with an 18" stainless steel barrel with a 1:7" twist. He was trying to hit something at 100m and wasn't able to keep it consistent, claiming the zero was off. Eventually, after 15 minutes of watching him struggle with shooting a single round then trying to adjust zero (who teaches these people how to zero a rifle?!) and sent 5 rounds down range on a clean target. The grouping was 10MOA at best. He had a really nice optic on it. I looked at his ammunition, and he was using vietnam style, thin jacket short 50gr, +3,600fps rounds. I think a few rounds were fragmenting out of his barrel too. It shouldn't be possible to shoot that bad with a 12x scope (the big baby) at 100m off of a bench, but it happened.
As for headspacing, you basically want to get it as tight as possible. What you require are some headspace guages. A SAAMI GO, NOGO, and, if you ever wanna operate, a NATO FIELD. A GO spec guage is the absolute minimum headspace possible between the bolt and chamber with a round in it within reason (usually there is a little wiggle room). If it does not close on a GO guage, the headspacing is too tight. A NOGO guage should not close. If it closes on a NOGO guage, the headspacing is too loose and out of spec, but not dangerous per se. FIELD is the absolute no go, this is dangerous and will explode/imminent failure, field test. It's called FIELD because you carry that one in the field and insert it into strange rifles you pick up if you aren't sure whether or not they are going to explode and general nasties. Usually, various headspace manufacturors make SAAMI and NATO headspacing guages pre made and measured. You can also order custom guages to headspace specifically for your particular brand of brass as all brass is slightly different.
For the Steyr, I would suggest going with SAAMI spec as NATO specification is a bit looser as the 5.56NATO brass is slightly thicker than the SAAMI .223 brass. You can stick .223 into 5.56NATO and be okay, but really tight SAAMI spec .223 custom rifles might not let you close the bolt on 5.56NATO rounds. It's basically a bit of experimentation, and every rifle is slightly different on how to adjust headspacing (it's a function of lug size and ordering/grinding the proper sized bolt or locking lug). I recommend having a set of headspacing guages for all of your calibers! It can really help diagnose common issues and let you find lemons when you are purchasing a new firearm.
—
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time
Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
Mon, 2014-07-14 17:08
#8
Smokeskin
otohime1978 wrote:
Ok, had to google to find out what a T-box is :)
If you had to be sure to hit the brain stem and penetrate skull to get there, then a fragmented/partially expanded/tumbling/slightly off course bullet is a no go, I agree.
When hunting I avoid shooting through branches and grass too, for the same reasons. I want clean kills and getting any particular animal isn't so important I'm to risk a wounding shot.
In combat though, I wouldn't think twice. I was taught to just shoot through stuff. Walls, trees, steel plate, just shoot through it. There is so little that will give you cover against rifles.
I have the 308 Scout, not the 223 :)
I'll look into what those spacers cost, thanks for the info.
Mon, 2014-07-14 19:18
#9
otohime1978
Smokeskin wrote:I have the
Oh... that should be about the same, then. Umm, it's a 1:10" twist, I believe. It really shouldn't be too picky, but you really don't want to go heavier than 180gr or so on that unless you want to watch your groupings start to open up. If nice 155gr rounds are giving you trouble, then there is something else wrong. Cheap ass federal HPBT rounds should do just fine out of that and hover around the 1~1.5MOA range. It's not a super accurate rifle by today's standards, but it's still battle rifle range.
T-box isn't giving me any results on google initially, but yes. Floppy slot indeed.
Combat between normal infantry, DM, and Sniper teams are very different, though. But yes, if I didn't have the time to make a very clean shot, I'm just going to open up. T-box is for someone who can take their time and is close enough in to actually see what they are doing. Personally, I wouldn't make an attempt at it beyond 300m, and if I had the choice, I'd get closer.
I haven't been hunting forever, though. Last time I went, I went with my family. Self loading systems with magazines upwards of 20rnds are legal to hunt with here, so we did as such, people out there aren't the most friendly, so. Anyways, I had my FAL with a nice zeiss german three post 4x (RIP), father had his M40, sister had another 700 series from the '60s... and my idiot brother had a milled AK-47 with leaf sights that he could never figure out how to use.
Why? No clue.
Anyways, we find this nice spot overlooking a valley with a stream running down the center, with a bunch of lot of underbrush, so visual clarity wasn't the best. But I found this spot with trees surrounding this indented area that overlooked the whole area quite nicely, and had a very nice dead tree for a built in bench. Well, we are out there for hours and it was raining but finally stopped. A deer maybe 150m away below us is eating bark or something, and I see it. Motion to my family about it and start thinking about range and shooting down hill. And while I am adjusting my point of aim, my brother finally sees it. But instead of thinking, he suddenly stands up and just opens fire, missing everything. He is a [i]terrible[/i] shot universally. I think it's because he gets hard and excited by shooting so he can't concentrate. But he has a history of doing this while hunting. Can't wait, shoots early, scares away game. It's frustrating.
—
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time
Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
Sun, 2014-08-10 08:56
#10
Smokeskin
Got my new rifle:
Got my new rifle:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/77qvWuP.jpg[/IMG]
The best 4-shot group from my first day at the range, at 100m fired from prone with bipod and no bags. Ammo is Norma FMJ 150gr. The dotted circle is 1MOA.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/HbrY1kV.jpg[/IMG]
That's a hair's breadth from a 0.5MOA grouping. I'm very, very happy with the results and totally motivated to continue shooting, and I've begun doing daily dry firing drills - just 5-10 minutes, but I think the routine will really add up.
Mon, 2014-08-18 23:35
#11
Critias
Nice! The closest thing I've
Nice! The closest thing I've got to a rifle right now is my RomAK, which is more like a bullet spitter that I know will never break on me. Lately I've had the itch to mix it up a little and get either a wheelgun to offset my Glock, or a bolt action for longer-range shooting...and...uhh...I know which of the two will be cheaper to get. Long range is gonna have to wait, methinks. ;)
—
[url=http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.php?keywords=russell+zimmerman&x=0&... I write stuff.[/url]