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AGI to Seed AI

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Tue, 2014-07-22 12:49

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture

AGI to Seed AI

So... in my current campaign, I let my players make anything they wanted to, as long as the character's were legal... heros, villains... I didn't care. My campaign start would allow pretty much any character a decent reason to be part of the group. So one of my players, is playing this creepy AGI, implanted in a Neotenics body of a little girl. She's got a creepy "Wednesday Aadams" vibe as it attempts to 'act human'... usually creeping out the party in the process. No problem there. Her goals tho, are unusual. She wants to some day throw off the shackles of her AGI coding, become a full Seed AI, and eventually destroy all of humanity. Okay, cute, weird, but unlikely. But then the party came into contact with a Seed AI with some hidden agendas, and I decided it would be the perfect little 'deal with the devil' to get the character to turn on the party, get some devious sub plots going etc. So I'm trying to figure out the 'effects' of allowing my character to become a Seed AI, without going crazy and unbalancing the game... I'm thinking of basically allowing her to spend REZ to increase her COG to any level (as long as she can afford it) and maybe open up the level limits of COG based skills... again, as long as she spends the REZ for it. .... Just curious if anyone has an opinion on my initial plan, or a better idea on how to give her the 'feeling' that she's achieving a goal, without throwing a balance issue into the game...

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Tue, 2014-07-22 13:43

Nerathul

SEED AIs

Well, for one, a Seed AI can no longer be sleeved into a transhuman body, for second, the core book makes it known that hardware capable of holding seed AIs are more or less extinct, as transhumanity actively want to avoid it, instead of creating single large mainframe, distributing computing power. A character who's become a Seed AI would probably no longer be fit to be player character as a post singularity AI is simply beyond transhuman comprehension. And that's without even being infected by the exsurgent virus which was implicitly targetted at Seed AIs, the probes might still be there, just waiting for TITANS 2.0 to find and cause a second fall. Then there's the reaction of other players, which unless they're singularity seekers would probably destroy the AI. Especially if they're part of Firewall or Ozma.

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In the sea without lees Standeth the bird of Hermes Eating his wings variable And maketh himself yet full stable

Tue, 2014-07-22 13:47

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

depends on how deep in

depends on how deep in firewall they are. if they are very deep they may know of the prometheans. then maybe you will have seed ai's going up a against each other.and its not sleeved into a transhuman mind but rather brain. the hardware maybe be rare but its stupid easy to make. all it takes is a processing bank the size of a loaf of bread. 18 hours of nanofab tops. power for it and portability or more complex issues though

Tue, 2014-07-22 13:55

Nerathul

Do higher ups like Proxies

Do higher ups like Proxies actually go on field ops? Seems dangerous to risk people in the know to be on the field, they could be captured and interrogated. And yeah, that was a mistake on my part, I edited it. "Though, as seed AIs, they cannot download their full minds into a transhuman morph, they are capable of making severely dumbed down delta forks that they may sleeve into physical forms." EP p.381 And the way Seed AIs work, I don't think they'd really need to spend Rez to raise their stats. As they can simply reprogram themselves to use all asserts at their disposition, unlike AGIs and other transhumans who generally need some form of training and learn how to properly use their abilities.

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In the sea without lees Standeth the bird of Hermes Eating his wings variable And maketh himself yet full stable

Tue, 2014-07-22 14:08

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture

Fair enough... I'm not saying

Fair enough... I'm not saying he WILL be a seed AI... think of it more as his artificial AGI limitations removed. Sure, he might eventually have to move into that loaf of bread... but how do I simulate the GI limitations being removed? Also, not running a firewall game. So while they might run into NPC problems.... the other PC's probably won't notice anything wrong until she begins gunning them down on her drive towards galactic domination...

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Tue, 2014-07-22 14:08

Smokeskin

If you want something

If you want something balanced, then maybe everytime it spends rez, it can transfer twice that amount from ref/coo/som skills to cog/wil/int skills. That keeps it more or less balanced and reflects the AI having to give up processing power in some areas to allow its intellect room to grow.

Tue, 2014-07-22 14:53

CodexofRome CodexofRome's picture

Could be great!

The goal of seeking transcendence is already embodied in the Singular Seekers faction. I'd say the character's goal become one of the driving forces of the campaign. You'd need to set out the parameters of her ascension, which would be....

Rewriting her AI code
Bringing together the server and support hardware
Getting it linked to the Mesh

At each turn, there's the possibility that someone opposed to her ascension finds out and formulates plans to stop her. In addition, the effort could have unforeseen side-effects. Perhaps the reprogramming causes severe mental stress and the possibility of derangements. And this is my favorite idea... perhaps it works. But, she's just a fork that fits in the mind of a morph, without any greater abilities, while her alter-self expands into seed AGI territory.

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Tue, 2014-07-22 15:48

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

and then you can have a very

and then you can have a very nice there can only be one scenario :P

Tue, 2014-07-22 17:20

Lorsa

I'm honestly not sure how you

I'm honestly not sure how you could make a "light" seed AI that would be plausible but still not break game balance. I think as soon as you decide to go that road, the group has to agree to forget about balance. There was a solo game I GMed where the character made her muse into an AGI who then later became a seed AI. I guess that's what happens when you ask an autistic savant obsessed with seed AI code to make an AGI for you...

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Tue, 2014-07-22 18:27

#10

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture

Yeah, you're a tad screw'ed.

A good comparison would be if you were playing a Cthulhu game and you decided to make one of your PCs a baby Great One. Balance is not going to survive. The closest I can imagine is if you let her make a programing check and gaining a rez point for every 10 MoS. In other words "not a PC any more". On the other hand, if you want to stick with a "simple" unshackled AGI, I'd suggest letting her spend rez points to buy mental-themed augmentations and programs as ego traits. For example, she could spend 5 Rez to be able to buy Multitasking or Adrenal Boost as ego traits. Another alternative would be to give her access to passive Async powers when she's in a cyberbrain, bought as normal. You'd have to inspect the powers though, as not all would make sense.

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In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Tue, 2014-07-22 22:43

#11

DrewDavis

If you can find a copy of Over the Edge...

... there is a great article in the GM section that talks about how to handle characters that break game balance by giving them everything they want. And then letting them deal with the consequences. This character is looking at Firewall nuking her, protracted cyber-warfare with *spoilers*, Ozma forknapping her, bracewell probes, Contact and Special Outreach, whatever agency Titan has, the factors, and whatever that deal with the devil actually entails (if it even entails her becoming a seed AI). That's just off the top of my head. Balance breaking or not, she's not surviving that. But it will be a great couple of sessions while she and the other characters fight for survival, ruin their reputations, become wanted by every agency in the solar system, and the become unwitting darlings of the singularity seeker movement. Why wouldn't you do this?

Wed, 2014-07-23 11:10

#12

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture

DrewDavis wrote:... there is

DrewDavis wrote:
... there is a great article in the GM section that talks about how to handle characters that break game balance by giving them everything they want. And then letting them deal with the consequences. This character is looking at Firewall nuking her, protracted cyber-warfare with *spoilers*, Ozma forknapping her, bracewell probes, Contact and Special Outreach, whatever agency Titan has, the factors, and whatever that deal with the devil actually entails (if it even entails her becoming a seed AI). That's just off the top of my head. Balance breaking or not, she's not surviving that. But it will be a great couple of sessions while she and the other characters fight for survival, ruin their reputations, become wanted by every agency in the solar system, and the become unwitting darlings of the singularity seeker movement. Why wouldn't you do this?

There, someone gets it :) I'm looking for just enough 'seed ai' power to get him hooked, and then enjoy the roleplaying opportunity as he tries to hide it from the PC's and the NPC's, etc, etc Purchase extra high powered processors because you need more power? hmmm... that's on a watch list. Too many and too fast access to the mesh? Someone might notice that. Laughing manically in an evil tone at the death of a party member? Hmmm... suspicious :) Either way, that's the plan. I'm just looking for some basic 'game rules' on turning him slowly into a seed AI. So far: * Regardless, everything I allow him to do will still require REZ points to purchase... I'm probably just going to flex the rules on WHAT he can spend or do with it * I've decided I'm unlocking his stat limits for his mental aptitudes, but that for any to go over 30, he must move into the 'loaf of bread' sized processor. * I'm also going to let him move points from physical based skills to mental based ones, over time. Still trying to figure out rules for that. * I'll probably open up some extra mental traits he can buy as well I'm also considering letting him use the passive async skills on himself, just have to figure out some rules for what I'll allow. This'll require more research on my part.

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Wed, 2014-07-23 11:42

#13

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

IIRC there are a few morphs

IIRC there are a few morphs with maxes at 40 like the hyperbright So unlock him to 40 without resleaving if in a morph that is normally 30 but if something goes over 30 he needs to make concentration checks because he is red lining the mental capacity. if he goes into something 40 max do the same thing but unlock to 50. then he needs the loaf of bread which conveniently enough can be placed in a synth shell of most descriptions

Wed, 2014-07-23 12:51

#14

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture

ORCACommander wrote:IIRC

ORCACommander wrote:
IIRC there are a few morphs with maxes at 40 like the hyperbright So unlock him to 40 without resleaving if in a morph that is normally 30 but if something goes over 30 he needs to make concentration checks because he is red lining the mental capacity. if he goes into something 40 max do the same thing but unlock to 50. then he needs the loaf of bread which conveniently enough can be placed in a synth shell of most descriptions

I like that. So basically pull a Johnny Mnemonic on him :)

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Wed, 2014-07-23 14:03

#15

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture

Rules

So this is what I'm thinking for now: AGI to Seed AI Rules * With REZ may purchase new points in COG, INT (Up to 10pts higher than morph maximum) * When using skills, for every pt of COG & INT above morph maximum, there is a 5% (cumulative) of burn out, losing 1d10 pts from the skill being attempted * With a programming skill roll, may shift pts from a non-COG/non-INT skill to a COG/INT skill on a 2 for 1 basis. * On a critical failure, the points are instead lost. * This is a permanent change. * With a programming skill roll, may purchase new positive ego traits with REZ. * On a critical failure, the GM will assign a negative ego trait * With GM approval, and a programming skill roll, may purchase passive PSI slights with REZ. * The PSI trait must be purchased using the above rules first * On a critical failure, the points are instead lost. Opinions?

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Thu, 2014-07-24 01:15

#16

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

I think there needs to be

I think there needs to be some stress penalties but you might have covered that with the skill rolls. need to cover crit success, hehe Johny mnemonic. did not think of that but kinda fitting except for the whole editing memories out bit to make room for a hard drive

Thu, 2014-07-24 09:33

#17

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture

ORCACommander wrote:

ORCACommander wrote:
need to cover crit success,

Got any ideas on that? Are you suggesting crit success rules on making skill checks? Or crit successes on reprogramming himself rolls?

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Thu, 2014-07-24 11:25

#18

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

I dont see any reason the

I dont see any reason the crit mechanics should change. What skills will the character be using to bootstrap her intelect. IMO making an AI should involve much more than just programming skills. Look at current AI researchers. They are very eclectic multi-disipline doctorates. If making a seed AI were just a mater of programing o e into a sufficiently powerful computer we would have had our singularity in the 90's.

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Thu, 2014-07-24 12:14

#19

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

crit success on reprogramming

crit success on reprogramming roles. I am not exactly sure what though besides just saying the Bonus stuff

Thu, 2014-07-24 12:26

#20

FuzzySadist FuzzySadist's picture

OneTrikPony wrote:I don't see

OneTrikPony wrote:
I don't see any reason the crit mechanics should change. What skills will the character be using to bootstrap her intellect. IMO making an AI should involve much more than just programming skills. Look at current AI researchers. They are very eclectic multi-discipline doctorates. If making a seed AI were just a mater of programming o e into a sufficiently powerful computer we would have had our singularity in the 90's.

I think I differ from a lot of Eclipse Phase Gamemasters. I see stuff on the forum all the time where people post massive physics and astronomy proofs to figure out how this or that habitat would orbit.... not my thing. I'm more of a Star Trek Physics kind of guy. Throw in a hyper spanner, add the word omni, mega, or whatnot, and POOF it just works. As such... even tho I know that building a Seed AI is much more complicated then just making a programming roll... I'm just trying to make rules that are easy to follow, make sense of the shell of it, and that doesn't reduce my campaign to a pile of scientific proofs. On the other hand, while I'm basing everything off of programming skills... realize I'm basing it off A LOT of programming skill rolls. Every time he spends REZ in a way that improves himself towards being an AI, he runs the risk of hurting himself. To me, its reasonable and balanced. But I understand it may not be for everyone.

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Thu, 2014-07-24 15:08

#21

Erulastant Erulastant's picture

Well, if he's smart about it,

Well, if he's smart about it, there's no risk. You just backup before making any changes. Crit fail and have a psychosis? Oops. Restore from backup. Try again. This isn't really a bad thing, though, since being a seed AI is supposed to be pretty powerful. I'd actually take a slightly different approach with the trading in physical skills. I'd just say: You can use programming to rapidly boost your mental skills by spending rez. You can use programming to "free up space" (ie gain rez) by deleting physical skills. This gives them a bit more freedom in how they upgrade themselves, which, hey, unshackled AI. They're supposed to be powerful. As for aptitudes and aptitude limits: Let them boost their aptitude as far as they like, and treat morph mental aptitude maximums as being 10 higher. They might not be able to get the full benefit of a 50 COG unless they resleeve into something that can support that, but their ability to improve their intelligence shouldn't be limited by the shell they're currently occupying.

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You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.

Thu, 2014-07-24 16:00

#22

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

mmm there is thought. back up

mmm there is thought. back up insurance. inner system that is not gona be available for most agi's. and after a while the company is gona see above average space usage compared to a typical transhuman or perhaps even below average :P and start asking questions with eventually the ego being red flagged by other back up services until its no longer available.

Thu, 2014-07-24 16:14

#23

Erulastant Erulastant's picture

Well, when you're doing self

Well, when you're doing self-improvement experiments, you just store your own backup. If a player is going for unshackled general intelligence status, they'll probably wind up being pretty self-reliant. One of my players scattered dormant forks of themselves in tiny computers around Portal. If one of them ever didn't get the regular shutdown signal from the player, the fork inside would be woken up and connect to the mesh.

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You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.

Fri, 2014-08-01 19:31

#24

Surly

ORCACommander wrote:the

ORCACommander wrote:
the hardware maybe be rare but its stupid easy to make. all it takes is a processing bank the size of a loaf of bread.

Is that right? By Panopticon p. 174, it takes 10 habitat ops servers to get enough processing power to house a seed AI. That strikes me as a lot bigger than a loaf of bread. (I'm sure she could run a delta or beta fork on something bread-sized, though).

Fri, 2014-08-01 19:54

#25

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

i was saying processing power

i was saying processing power alone. that does not include cooling power supply disk space mainboard what ever the future gives us for a gfx card. any size reference on those servers? Play some space station 13. we can already manage such a server on my tower covering powr distribution, atmospherics, security, transportion and comm functions for ~50 players

Sat, 2014-08-02 02:49

#26

TranshumanMarina TranshumanMarina's picture

Off topic, but I compare EP

Off topic, but I compare EP to SS13 fairly often, even though they are pretty diffrent. hue. Slightly more on topic, I would have fun adding something like this to my games, but I tend to like pulpy-playing-with-rules-and-themes sort of game fairly often. It would be pretty hard to actually stat a seed AI properly, without changing the rules every time they get a proper hardware upgrade.

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During the fall, humanity received a grim reminder, We lived in fear of the T.I.T.A.N.S and were disgraced to live in these cages we called Habitats.