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How do you play high Aptitudes?

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nick012000 nick012000's picture
How do you play high Aptitudes?
Simply put, how smart is someone with a COG and INT of 40? How do you get more aware and intuitive than "Nigh-Omiscient"? How superhuman is someone with a COO and SOM of 40? How fast are the reflexes of someone with a REF of 40? And so on, and so forth. I'm just trying to wrap my head around just how good the transhumans of Eclipse Phase are, in an in-universe perspective rather than a game-mechanical one.

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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: How do you play high Aptitudes?
nick012000 wrote:
Simply put, how smart is someone with a COG and INT of 40? How do you get more aware and intuitive than "Nigh-Omiscient"? How superhuman is someone with a COO and SOM of 40? How fast are the reflexes of someone with a REF of 40? And so on, and so forth. I'm just trying to wrap my head around just how good the transhumans of Eclipse Phase are, in an in-universe perspective rather than a game-mechanical one.
Well, the way I've perceived it I believe that average human intelligence in our day equates to a score of 10 in any of these aptitudes. This means that most people have much higher potential in Eclipse Phase for intelligence than humans in our day. However, note that your aptitudes have nothing to do with physical strength or ability. That's all an aspect of the morph. Rather, SOM, REF and COO represent your mental ability to [i]harness[/i] the physical capabilities of your morph. The body of an olympian means nothing if you don't have the mental ability to push your body like an olympian can. Perfect physical agility and enough flexibility to feed yourself with your feet [i]while standing[/i] means nothing if you are completely uncoordinated and clumsy. A body built for speed means nothing if you don't have the reflexes to move and react at that speed. The aptitude maximums represent just how built that body is, and just how much potential it will allow for before it is simply holding an ego back. As for the rest, well hopefully a developer will chime in. It's their baby, so I don't know how to speculate on what exactly a number represents. But I will say that numbers shouldn't really affect personality in any real way. The super-intelligent will be as capable of a variety of emotions and personality traits/quirks as the mundane.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: How do you play high Aptitudes?
Here is my take: I would say someone with COG or INT 30 is by current standards a "genius": they can understand concepts that most of us never "get", rapidly figure out complex problems or understand large bodies of information, make use of information from the Mesh in such an effective way that it acts as an extension of their knowledge and thinking. They are at the limits of what we can imagine as human. Being a genius does by no means rule out stupidity or silly/bad ideas, they just get expressed in much more clever ways. And it does not mean they produce Einstein/Newton-level insights: most never focus on truly important problems. Motivation and ambition are required to truly excel. But since there are so many more people at this level around than today, the overall effect is still enormous. COG/INT 40 is posthuman. This is the kind of thinking we do not see today outside fiction: people solving crimes in their head, deducing what other people will do with uncanny precision and having clever plan B's for all eventualities, setting up statistical models on the fly to make the right decision, keeping 20 things in memory simultaneously. Very hard to play or GM. Fortunately many supergeniuses like this tend to focus their intelligence on even narrower domains than the mere geniuses; transhumanity has not yet had any universal supergeniuses.
Extropian
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: How do you play high Aptitudes?
Arenamontanus wrote:
Here is my take: I would say someone with COG or INT 30 is by current standards a "genius": they can understand concepts that most of us never "get", rapidly figure out complex problems or understand large bodies of information, make use of information from the Mesh in such an effective way that it acts as an extension of their knowledge and thinking. They are at the limits of what we can imagine as human. Being a genius does by no means rule out stupidity or silly/bad ideas, they just get expressed in much more clever ways. And it does not mean they produce Einstein/Newton-level insights: most never focus on truly important problems. Motivation and ambition are required to truly excel. But since there are so many more people at this level around than today, the overall effect is still enormous. COG/INT 40 is posthuman. This is the kind of thinking we do not see today outside fiction: people solving crimes in their head, deducing what other people will do with uncanny precision and having clever plan B's for all eventualities, setting up statistical models on the fly to make the right decision, keeping 20 things in memory simultaneously. Very hard to play or GM. Fortunately many supergeniuses like this tend to focus their intelligence on even narrower domains than the mere geniuses; transhumanity has not yet had any universal supergeniuses.
Actually, I think that even an aptitude of 30 is getting beyond genius-level intelligence. Remember that flats (natural humans) are limited to aptitudes of 20, which means that a 21 already equates to higher mental proficiency than most of the smartest natural humans in that specific mental aptitude. 21 SOM represents someone already capable of pushing their bodies with more proficiency than some of the greatest olympic athletes, and 21 COG represents someone already beyond many of the smartest scientists in our day. Only with exceptional aptitude could humans begin to exceed this point.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: How do you play high Aptitudes?
Decivre wrote:
Arenamontanus wrote:
Here is my take: I would say someone with COG or INT 30 is by current standards a "genius": they can understand concepts that most of us never "get", rapidly figure out complex problems or understand large bodies of information, make use of information from the Mesh in such an effective way that it acts as an extension of their knowledge and thinking. They are at the limits of what we can imagine as human. Being a genius does by no means rule out stupidity or silly/bad ideas, they just get expressed in much more clever ways. And it does not mean they produce Einstein/Newton-level insights: most never focus on truly important problems. Motivation and ambition are required to truly excel. But since there are so many more people at this level around than today, the overall effect is still enormous. COG/INT 40 is posthuman. This is the kind of thinking we do not see today outside fiction: people solving crimes in their head, deducing what other people will do with uncanny precision and having clever plan B's for all eventualities, setting up statistical models on the fly to make the right decision, keeping 20 things in memory simultaneously. Very hard to play or GM. Fortunately many supergeniuses like this tend to focus their intelligence on even narrower domains than the mere geniuses; transhumanity has not yet had any universal supergeniuses.
Actually, I think that even an aptitude of 30 is getting beyond genius-level intelligence. Remember that flats (natural humans) are limited to aptitudes of 20, which means that a 21 already equates to higher mental proficiency than most of the smartest natural humans in that specific mental aptitude. 21 SOM represents someone already capable of pushing their bodies with more proficiency than some of the greatest olympic athletes, and 21 COG represents someone already beyond many of the smartest scientists in our day. Only with exceptional aptitude could humans begin to exceed this point.
On the other hand, it seems entirely possible that the likes of Newton, Einstein, and da Vinci did have the Exceptional Aptitude trait for COG, and the best olympic athletes might have it for their SOM.

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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: How do you play high Aptitudes?
nick012000 wrote:
On the other hand, it seems entirely possible that the likes of Newton, Einstein, and da Vinci did have the Exceptional Aptitude trait for COG, and the best olympic athletes might have it for their SOM.
That's why I said "most" when talking about these comparatives. There will be few, in theory, that can break that barrier naturally. However, the human average is probably still closer to 10. With 105 points at creation for aptitudes, I'd imagine that the characters in EP are significantly better off than we are now as a general rule.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: How do you play high Aptitudes?
IQ (and presumably physical performance) tends to be distributed as a Gaussian distribution (the bell curve). Most are close to average (68% are within one standard deviation), and then there are rapidly diminishing tails of high- and low-performers. Only 0.1% are above three standard deviations. But this is not the same as actual success. It is well documented that in science productivity is very skew (Lotka's law) - one in a hundred scientists produce a hundred times more paper than the others. This also goes for research impact: most scientists have very little impact, but a few have enormous effects. An interesting survey is Charles Murray's "Human Accomplishment" where he used ranking methods to get lists of the top scientists and artists. Again, the distribution is very uneven in space, time and level of effect. And measuring success in wealth, again produces a very skew distribution (lognormal with a power law tail). By this kind of success measures, most of the population matter very little. Not even when they are actually smart, accomplished or well-off. I think the conclusion should be that actual stats are like IQ: nice to have, equipped with a well-defined mean and not too many extreme outliers. I doubt Einstein would have scored amazingly high on an IQ test (just very high). But when it comes to make a splash in the world and history many factors need to come together: ambition, good aptitudes, the right question or right situation, beating the competition... and that produces a very skew situation. Einstein had about four super-insights (Brownian motion, the photoelectric effect, special and general relativity; the first three in the same year), which is four more than nearly all scientists, and three more than most famous scientists. What does this mean in RPG terms? I think it means that high aptitudes are not the measure of the superiority of a character, just a sign that they have one less stumbling block to greatness. A COG 40 character can understand Einstein's thinking easily, but whether they can conceive of an equally profound question to solve depends on other factors.
Extropian
benji benji's picture
Re: How do you play high Aptitudes?
RE Human Average: I've worked out human average in EP to be 13 for all traits. The slightly-below average range is 10-12, the slightly above is 14-16. Between 6 and 9, and between 17 and 20 would be exceptional traits, while 5 and lower and everything above 21 would be statistical outlier. So Einstein, say, would possibly have an exceptional attribute trait and a natural COG around 25. It's also possible that some people had naturally higher traits but ran in to the limits of a flat. This is best viewed in terms of SOM. An exceptional athlete might well understand their own movement well enough to do something truly amazing, if only their body weren't so limited. But it could also work with things like COG and INT. I remember someone describing watching the French Philosopher Derrida lecture, and how he would seem constantly frustrated because he was just barely able to understand the ideas he himself was coming up with. This could be the experience of having a COG of 25 in a Flat: there's a brilliant idea just outside of your grasp, if only your brain was structured in such a way to understand it. This also balances out fairly well for character design. Everyone has enough points to at least be average in everything and then excel in a handful of areas, or (if you do 15s across the board) be a little above average at everything, which is itself pretty extraordinary.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: How do you play high Aptitudes?
benji wrote:
RE Human Average: I've worked out human average in EP to be 13 for all traits. The slightly-below average range is 10-12, the slightly above is 14-16. Between 6 and 9, and between 17 and 20 would be exceptional traits, while 5 and lower and everything above 21 would be statistical outlier. So Einstein, say, would possibly have an exceptional attribute trait and a natural COG around 25. It's also possible that some people had naturally higher traits but ran in to the limits of a flat. This is best viewed in terms of SOM. An exceptional athlete might well understand their own movement well enough to do something truly amazing, if only their body weren't so limited. But it could also work with things like COG and INT. I remember someone describing watching the French Philosopher Derrida lecture, and how he would seem constantly frustrated because he was just barely able to understand the ideas he himself was coming up with. This could be the experience of having a COG of 25 in a Flat: there's a brilliant idea just outside of your grasp, if only your brain was structured in such a way to understand it. This also balances out fairly well for character design. Everyone has enough points to at least be average in everything and then excel in a handful of areas, or (if you do 15s across the board) be a little above average at everything, which is itself pretty extraordinary.
Out of curiosity, how did you come to the conclusion of that number for a human average?
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
benji benji's picture
Re: How do you play high Aptitudes?
Because it works nicely for the feel of my game. By "worked out" I really meant, "decided based on the information at hand and what I wanted for my games." Basically, I wanted PCs to be slightly above average, but not exceptionally so. I also wanted a bell curve that would bottom out at the bottom of the system, and top out around that maximum most players would choose to spend. I don't see most players choosing to go higher then a 25 or so before morph bonuses because that's slightly under a quarter of your attribute points with a whole 6 traits to go. Incidentally this leaves 13 in everything else, with a couple of points to spare. So a PC, with my system, can be at about the maximum in one of 7 traits and still be average everywhere else. You can also be slightly above average everywhere. This strikes the right note for me. EP doesn't seem to be a game where playing the "dumb barbarian" and the "wizard who can barely pick up his staff" would be much fun. You can also be generally average, but excel at a couple of traits, just not to the human max. For example, 2 traits at 20 (exceptional, but not blow-you-away exceptional) puts you at 13 for the other 5.
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: How do you play high Aptitudes?
benji wrote:
RE Human Average: I've worked out human average in EP to be 13 for all traits.
[i]Transhuman[/i] average, maybe. Baseline human average is somewhere between 6-10.

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