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The Titan Quarantine Zone

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Sun, 2014-06-15 20:31

Acatalepsy Acatalepsy's picture

The Titan Quarantine Zone

Discussion of the TQZ, especially in light of Zone Stalkers. ...and to start us off, the problem, that well, it's way too big. Like, the Zone is easily bigger than Europe. And defending that perimeter is....less than a thousand people? By comparison, the US border patrol is over twenty thousand people patrolling a much shorter border where the things on the other side are 'just normal people who want a job' rather than 'potential vectors for the brutal annihilation of humanity'. Yes, technology allows a single Martian Ranger to cover more ground, especially with masses of egos in sensor stations, but their targets also have relatively easy access to invisibility cloaks, radar-defeating material and more. Moreover, from a game perspective...it's still way too big. Again. Size of a continent. Most of that is empty red dust. Very slow to get around in; there's no sense of being in any specific place in the Zone (Zone Stalkers, notably, lacked an actual map of the Zone with important spots and areas highlighted, which seems like it should be a rather important feature). In terms of actually moving around - walking is essentially out of the question. Without a sense of where different things are, moving around in the Zone seems like it's just hitting a random number generator, which it sort of is. And I think all of the aspects of the Zone that make it difficult to use are tied to just how big it's supposed to be. My solution in my (likely upcoming) EP game is to essentially make the TQZ more of an administrative region than a death zone. It's too big for anyone to reliably block access in and out of, so they don't. The region is, however, under special Tharsis jurisdiction (with heavy reliance on PC contractors) that categorically prohibits any sort of major settlement in the region outside a few special permits. The 'outer' TQZ is essentially safe - oh, you see some crazy shit now and again, at a much higher rate than usual on Mars, but outside a few freak incidents it's basically safe. The 'inner Zone', the White Zone, is like the TQZ from 'canon'. It's heavily patrolled, they have shoot on sight orders and backup from nearby bases and orbital weapons emplacements. Getting in and out is harder. It's "smaller", but still bigger than, say, Germany. Inside is a dangerous wasteland that contains physics-defying phenomenon, leftover TITAN scraps, and more. Thoughts on the concept, or general discussion of the TQZ? (Random aside on laser communication in or out of the Zone. Since Mars orbital space isn't under lockdown, shouldn't it be reasonably easy to get a satellite (or, hell, rent space on board a ship) to get a signal out through the jamming?)

—

[I]This isn't a war ordinary humans can win. This is the future. Death's an inconvenience, now. Nothing more.[/I]

Sun, 2014-06-15 22:54

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

satellite based transmissions

satellite based transmissions are actually easier to jam on the ground than in space. but ya i agree that the outer zone is very very large and perhaps to much so and i think that lack of mapping of the tqz was a bit of an oversight but since stalkers refers to an adventure module that is not released yet i am hoping such maps may exist there

Tue, 2014-06-24 07:01

Myrmidont

Acatalepsy,

I quite agree on the size issue, and on your solution. But if the zone is too small, it's too easy to police - with satellites, motion sensors and flying cars. But I don't think we need a map - if you map something, it becomes static, and gives the impression (to both players and GMs) that it doesn't change. That's something that disagrees entirely with the Zone both as written, and with the Zone's inspiration. If the players are heading in, their plan should be rife with doubt. Are those white pillars disassembler aeolians, or biowarfare hives? Is the single file of humanoid figures moving near the proposed route the locals or wastewalkers? On that note, should I ever run a game in the TQZ, ROADSIDE PICNIC petals will totally be a thing. But something I immediately thought of when they mentioned the radio jamming: Put a series of small satellites (like the Satnet In A Can from Gatecrashing) in orbit over the Zone. Fire your laser comm at it. Have it fire laser comms back down. Bam, comms to anywhere with LOS to the sky. Maybe not that practical, but possible. Or replace the satnet with a stealth aerospace drone. Another thing that I thought of was that TQZ stalkers shouldn't move when shadows are long - you can even do gait analysis on the shadows to identify camouflaged persons. That limits activity to either the middle of the day, or night (when it's hard to see threats who might have no trouble seeing you, and your thermal profile is bound to stand out). http://f.kulfoto.com/pic/0001/0052/Y9WS851944.jpg

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Tue, 2014-06-24 13:17

Darn_the_Vargr Darn_the_Vargr's picture

Winter is Coming

So I take it you've never heard of the Night's Watch, eh? ;) The point of the TQZ in Eclipse Phase is that it's not possible to completely 'police' it. We're talking about remnants of some entity that had the power to completely wipe us out and far more advanced. And now, like you said, the remnants of that entity is there within range of populated cities. The issue isn't with the fact that, "Oh, the TITANs have like a continent the size of Europe on our Mars," it's "Why the fuck are we even living near this fucking thing?" It all makes sense if you remember the setting: Transhumanity's back, getting stronger, maybe, and they're encouraged to fight these threats. A good part of the setting is the tension that's created with the TQZ--Mars is obviously thriving (well, except for Olympus) and there obviously hasn't been any massive stirrings in the TQZ, but the government's not stupid enough to /not/ patrol it. For comparison, go read ASoIaF and you'll see how other authors handle a situation like this. I think I had more to say but it's slipped my mind. But take it and run with it. You've made a few good points, such as stating that the TQZ is patrolled by a skeleton crew. Think about this: what happens if the TITANs stir again? Do the Martians think they have enough numbers based on what's observable--on the surface, of the TQZ? These questions and more can be part of an space epic :3

—

"You think that of Me? I! Am the ONE WHO KNOCKS!"

Tue, 2014-06-24 13:39

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

well even in the future

well even in the future humans are very unlikely to abandon their homes even if moving all those settlements was economically feasible

Sun, 2014-06-29 16:29

Acatalepsy Acatalepsy's picture

Myrmidont wrote:But I don't

Myrmidont wrote:
But I don't think we need a map - if you map something, it becomes static, and gives the impression (to both players and GMs) that it doesn't change. That's something that disagrees entirely with the Zone both as written, and with the Zone's inspiration.

Adding a map doesn't mean placing every single relevant bit of info; nor does it mean that the map can't key on trends and possibilities as much as 'this is where X is'. And there's plenty of stuff which [i]should[/i] be on a map, but isn't. Locations of pre-Fall towns and cities. Topography - no, saying 'just use Google Map' is not helpful; breaking down the regions by climate and terrain would be helpful. Locations of known major TITAN concentrations - the Mogura Bunkers. Locations of major finds, and descriptions of what [i]types[/i] of dangers are in each general region. Locations of major Stalker camps, or areas known to be good camp sites. The bottom line is that as-is, the players can make [i]no meaningful decisions[/i] about traversing the Zone.

Darn_the_Vargr wrote:
So I take it you've never heard of the Night's Watch, eh? ;)

The two situations are very much night and day. One involves the slow decay of an essentially perfunctory duty over the course of centuries in the face of negligible opposition, far from politically important centers of power, and isolated by shear distance and climate. The other involves the containment of active, deadly threats that have exterminated over 80% of humanity within the past decade, threats which can make a mockery of distance and spatial barriers.

—

[I]This isn't a war ordinary humans can win. This is the future. Death's an inconvenience, now. Nothing more.[/I]

Sun, 2014-06-29 22:03

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

Acatalepsy, I think the

Acatalepsy, I think the developers wanted to leave it open and undefined so that we as Gamemasters can create maps and such for the use in games. Thus GM Alpha can put certain sites in one particular area, creating as many maps as necessary for his players to decide on their plans, while GM Beta can put the same stuff in a different area, with little to no map or canon to distract himself. It also saves them time to not create complicated and detailed maps, so cutting out some work that isn't entirely necessary is also handy. In the defense of the lack of maps.

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Mon, 2014-06-30 16:51

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

there is a difference tween

there is a difference tween the amount of effort requires to make a small local map or dungeon sized map and the map of a very large region. no gm is going to make an atlas sized document. Hell I love cartography and drawing maps but the map outline for the game i am making is only 100km^2 but ya that Martian map in Sunward is woefully inadequate to represent the TQZ

Mon, 2014-06-30 17:44

Darn_the_Vargr Darn_the_Vargr's picture

ORCACommander wrote:no gm is

ORCACommander wrote:
no gm is going to make an atlas sized document.

/fallacious In-universe, the TQZ isn't fully represented because that would require a vast amount of resources to analyze and map out. And I bet a lot of transhumans have died scoping out the area, anyway. It is safe to say that a lot of locations aren't fully represented because that would entail shooting out a surviving backup. And TITANs have a nasty habit of taking those stacks to x knows where.

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"You think that of Me? I! Am the ONE WHO KNOCKS!"

Mon, 2014-06-30 18:07

#10

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

maybe fallacious but its was

maybe fallacious but its was more of a show exasperation that a map would be very very heavily detailed to point of not having enough mystery. but in universe i can see no reason for at least basic topographical maps. why? because we have them right now. both from optical imaging and bouncing radar off the surface. and there are several geosynced monitoring satellites up there in game

Mon, 2014-06-30 19:09

#11

Darn_the_Vargr Darn_the_Vargr's picture

Topographical maps

Orca, you make some decent points, but you're assuming that there is not wave or particle interference. What if the alien technology is somehow distorting or preventing the imagery tech from mapping it? What if the radar waves are being scattered or prevented? And what if the TITANs can dynamically change the environment or very geography of the surface? I'm just proposing ideas. Honestly, if part of a setting element bothers you that much, just change it or make up your own deal. You probably have more interesting ideas than the original designers, anyway.

—

"You think that of Me? I! Am the ONE WHO KNOCKS!"

Mon, 2014-06-30 22:16

#12

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

I just view the omission as a

I just view the omission as a missed opportunity and if you look into the IC section i have started a little something in the TQZ but no one seems to have pitched in on yet :(

Tue, 2014-07-01 06:23

#13

TheGrue

Acatalepsy wrote:The two

Acatalepsy wrote:
The two situations are very much night and day. One involves the slow decay of an essentially perfunctory duty over the course of centuries in the face of negligible opposition, far from politically important centers of power, and isolated by shear distance and climate. The other involves the containment of active, deadly threats that have exterminated over 80% of humanity within the past decade, threats which can make a mockery of distance and spatial barriers.

First, hi Acatalepsy :D Don't know if you remember me (or if you're the same Acatalepsy I'm thinking of) Second, I disagree. My reading of the available material is that the primary purpose of the Rangers is not to keep things in the zone so much as to keep people out, for their own safety. Most of the dangerous things in the Zone are effectively static hazards, dangerous only to people already in the Zone. If they weren't, they'd have broken out by now. You're right that a thousand Rangers wouldn't be nearly enough if the things in there set their minds to escaping. In fact the entire military might of the Planetary Consortium still might not be enough. During the cold war, school children were taught in drills to duck and cover under their desks in the event of a nuclear attack. It wouldn't do a goddamn thing to help them, but they didn't need to know that and they felt safer being told to do something. The TQZ is the same way; if the sleeping giant wakes up, there's not a goddamn thing the League could do about it, but people feel safer thinking otherwise.

—

Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.

Tue, 2014-07-01 13:03

#14

Darn_the_Vargr Darn_the_Vargr's picture

Grue, your response seems

Grue, your response seems much more thought out and less of a dry, objective copy-paste of simple synopsis. The only difference between the Wall-North and the TQZ is really just tech and setting. The themes and memes transcend boundaries because themes and memes are art and literature. And as Aca and myself put it, if the TITANs really wanted to invade again, Mars would most likely be lost in a heartbeat. Much like the Wall could be. The Others and wildlings have already reduced the Night's Watch (Castle Black at least) to less than hundred men throughout Storm of Swords. It's quite apparent that the Martians and Watchers are operating on similar grounds.

—

"You think that of Me? I! Am the ONE WHO KNOCKS!"

Wed, 2014-07-02 13:04

#15

Acatalepsy Acatalepsy's picture

TheGrue wrote:First, hi

TheGrue wrote:
First, hi Acatalepsy :D Don't know if you remember me (or if you're the same Acatalepsy I'm thinking of)

Yep. I decided I needed to not be on GitP - sorry for not contacting you.

TheGrue wrote:
Second, I disagree. My reading of the available material is that the primary purpose of the Rangers is not to keep things in the zone so much as to keep people out, for their own safety. Most of the dangerous things in the Zone are effectively static hazards, dangerous only to people already in the Zone. If they weren't, they'd have broken out by now.

First, this seems a bit incongruous with their stated behavior of shooting anyone who refuses to stop going into the Zone. I mean, yes, this could (charitably) be considered a mercy, but it doesn't seem like that's their primary concern - they really don't want Stalkers going into the Zone and bringing dangerous shit out. Second, the most dangerous things in the Zone, outside of dead TITAN stuff which isn't active, are the infectious agents that can and do escape. They're explicitly discussed as the real danger of the Zone. They are very much in need of a more extensive network to stop, say, random lizards from wandering out - a problem which becomes much easier if you shrink the dangerous area by a factor of six or so. Third, even granting that, the Rangers are still woefully undermanned for the size of the task and the amount of terrain that they need to monitor. I used as a comparison the size of the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which is responsible for patrolling the US border with Mexico (and other things, but that's the big one). ICE is responsible for a small fraction of the territory the Rangers are, where the primary danger is someone smuggling narcotics across or illegally doing seasonal labor, not someone smuggling a deadly virus across. Again, this is much easier to make work at the scales ZS suggests if you shrink the Zone.

TheGrue wrote:
You're right that a thousand Rangers wouldn't be nearly enough if the things in there set their minds to escaping. In fact the entire military might of the Planetary Consortium still might not be enough. During the cold war, school children were taught in drills to duck and cover under their desks in the event of a nuclear attack. It wouldn't do a goddamn thing to help them, but they didn't need to know that and they felt safer being told to do something. The TQZ is the same way; if the sleeping giant wakes up, there's not a goddamn thing the League could do about it, but people feel safer thinking otherwise.

The fact that a given measure might not help in a worst case scenario doesn't mean that it's a complete waste of time. In fact, if random exsurgent things wandering out of the Zone are a real danger, then expanding the Rangers by an order of magnitude is pretty much the only sane thing to do. If you're worried about giving Tharsis too much military muscle (which seems silly, given that the Ranger's air support is handled by contractor), you can just have Consortium PMCs do it directly. As an aside, duck and cover is pretty good advice, all things considered ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_and_cover ). Just because being under a desk doesn't confer immunity to nukes doesn't mean that it's not a better idea than, say, standing near a window and getting shredded by flying glass when blast wave catches up.

Darn_the_Vargr wrote:
Orca, you make some decent points, but you're assuming that there is not wave or particle interference.

You're missing the part where topography maps of the Zone are explicitly available, but the designer's answer is "go use Google Mars". On one hand, fair enough - no sense in duplicating effort. On the other hand "go use Google Mars" isn't an actually useful answer or system that's usable in-game, and it doesn't enable meaningful player or GM choice. Other things - such as essentially all pre-Fall settlements, many major TITAN concentrations, and general characteristics of regions (from Stalkers who have been there and made it out), are fairly reasonable information for players to expect to be available. If you limited the more interesting stuff in the TQZ to the White Zone, and then did a more detailed discussion of that region, that would be much more usable as a game tool, both for players (to enable meaningful decision-making) and for GMs (to enable them to slot adventures, encounters, and hooks into a fairly fleshed out environment).

Darn_the_Vargr wrote:
It's quite apparent that the Martians and Watchers are operating on similar grounds.

This at best simplistic; it's really just outright wrong and misleading. Essentially the only things that they have in common are that there are bad things on one side of line and some people who want them to stay there. That is not a basis to draw any meaningful comparison. The context of each organization is utterly different. The tools, technology, and strategic paradigm that they create are utterly different. The history, the threat model, the political climate and concerns are utterly different. The people are different - one is a group of literal bastards and uneducated convicts in a feudal society who have been forced into a quasi-monastic order, the other is a bunch of transhumans in a post-scarcity, post-apocalyptic, extremely networked cybernetic society. There is essentially nothing relevant you can extract from GoT and apply to EP. I...don't know how to make that any more clear.

—

[I]This isn't a war ordinary humans can win. This is the future. Death's an inconvenience, now. Nothing more.[/I]

Wed, 2014-07-02 22:40

#16

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

Yeah, the Martian Rangers

Yeah, the Martian Rangers could all be having awesome transhuman orgies, while the Night's Watch are told to stay in their castle and just... not shag anything, never mind their loophole with the whores in the little village that the cynical leaders frequent. Definitely not much in common, even despite the genre differences. They both guard a border between (trans)humanity and... bad stuff? With loose connection between the folks left behind when the wall/border went up.

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Thu, 2014-07-03 16:33

#17

Karmarainbow Karmarainbow's picture

Storm

First, argghh. Why didn't I know this was coming out? I've just written a whole adventure in the Mars CZ. Anyway, in my game I have said that the CZ is perpetually covered by a dust storm. No one is quite sure what is powering the storm, but it is still going after 25 years (my game start date is AF 25 not AF10). The effect of the storm is that no one can see inside the CZ from space or high altitude, and aircraft entering the dust storm do not come out. The iron oxide dust blocks or scatters radar, microwaves, etc and there is also a jamming field covering the zone, which may be caused by the storm. I like the idea that you have no idea what is facing you once you enter....