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How do you represent Gender and Sexuality in Eclipse Phase

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Lorsa Lorsa's picture
How do you represent Gender and Sexuality in Eclipse Phase
After the recent declaration on MRAs by PS+ I feel safe enough starting a topic regarding this matter. Please be aware that due to the sensitive nature of this thread, it will be heavily moderated (though not by me). The point of this thread is not to critisize or point out flaws in others, but rather to share and reflect or even ask for advice. There is no "right way" to do things, but it just might happen that by discussing these issues you yourself will feel you can do it better (or differently). Eclipse Phase is a very intriguing setting, taking place in a not-to-far-off future where body-swapping is possible. The core book has touched briefly on what this implies for issues like gender and sexuality but hasn't really delved deep into it. I sometimes feel as though the authors wanted you to consider your own beliefs and expectations regarding these matters and then regard the current-day world through "transhuman" eyes. So let's start with Gender. The concept of gender is very complex and quite deeply ingrained in us. Even in a transhuman world with body-swapping, gender will probably be very important to many people and they will assosciate themselves with a certain gender identity. It's very important to many people today and I doubt new technology will change that (so quickly). However, I imagine there will be a lot more gender fluid and androgynous people than is common today. The lifelong social problems and depression that transsexuals often face is something I think will only be present in certain very conservative communities. Since most people are still born with one sex or another though, there [i]will[/i] be transsexuals, even if it's much easier to do something about the situation in a transhuman future than it is today. My questions then would be; do you see things differently and what have you done to represent gender in the Eclipse Phase society. From my own games, I have had a couple of characters (NPCs) who could be described as "transsexuals", that is they assosciate very strongly with one gender and it being the opposite of the sex of the morph they were born and raised one. For one of them, November, the gender transition was more slow as she started out identifying as a man but after having spent a lot of time in a female Fury (being one of the first to get them), starting to feel less and less like a man and more gender neutral until with the help of the player character finding out that she actually didn't like male morphs anymore and felt quite comfortable being referred to as she. For others the road has been more clear-cut, like Samantha the hacker who always knew he was a man but couldn't change until he was old enoiugh to make the choice himself. Since he was a bit of an anarchist (and eventually moved out to Rimward), he decided that while he didn't like his female birthmorph, he still liked the name Samantha and decided to keep it. He thought that gender-based names were a really stupid idea anyway. I have some others stories like that, including a completely gender neutral (and asexual) AGI and characters who change gender identity depending on the morph they are in. Even if these things are more commonplace in Eclipse Phase they certainly aren't today so by including characters that "break the current norm" I hope to show to my players how different things are in Eclipse Phase rather than jus describing it. Then there's also the matter of stereotypes and possible sexism. I personally loathe stereotypes and thus I hope that my various NPCs show a vide range of personalities regardless of their sex or gender. If anything I think that many of my "main NPCs" have tendency to be women simply because I feel that makes them more interesting. I don't think this is only because I have a deep-sated love of femininity (which I do) but mostly because women don't feature in prominent roles in stories today as often as men do. The majority of all media have men as the main characters (majority doesn't mean all) and as such I guess I feel a bit fed up by that. I've already seen too many male ship captains, or retired hero fighters or up-and-coming rookie or whatever. By placing women in these roles instead they feel more fresh again (because you know, gender DOES matter today). However, I often try to be as even in numbers as possible if the player(s) encounter a group of NPCs (I had an anarchist anti-pirate ship that consisted of 3 men and 3 women, with the Captain and ship mechanic being women). Nevertheless, the numbers for important NPCs does skew a little bit towards the female side. One other thing I try to do these days, regardless of game system, is that unless I already have a character concept in mind that requires the NPC to be a certain gender (or sex) I roll a die for it. This is done on occassions when encountering a group of random people, roll X dice and let them decide the gender. This is to avoid the "default to male" syndrome that plague many GMs as well as the "men are expendable mooks" issue. Moving on! Sexuality is another interesting issue to explore in Eclipse Phase. Even more than gender, sexuality is sort of a "sliding scale" and has a tendency to change during a persons life. In a world with body-swapping I've imagined that any prejudice as referring to various types of (sentient-oriented) sexuality is more or less compleetly absent in all but the most conservative places. Most people will probably still identify as "heterosexual" but I've assumed that bi-, pan- and polysexuality is much more present than it is today. Perhaps this is also in part because I feel that if we removed all the bias against non-hetero sexuality in our society today, more people would both find that they can be attracted to the same sex and feel comfortable admitting such. Nevertheless you can be quite sure that in my games there'll be NPCs with all kinds of sexuality,which can rival any Bioware game in diversity. Again, rather than just saying that "it is present" I try to actually show that some (or many) of the NPCs have various types of sexuality. Even asexuals are present, one of the major NPCs of the last adventure for example (and now a contact of the PC) is an asexual male. Then there's the matter of sex in general, also a very interesting topic. Today I feel society makes too big deal of sex, which interestingly enough both shames people that have too little and people that have too muich. Everytime I see a movie or TV-series where there is an outrage that a character hasn't had sex in *gasp* six months! I can't help but shake my head in disbelief. I haven't had sex in years and certainly don't feel that my life is in ruins because of it. I've sort of assumed that even in more conservative places like Earth Orbit, people are more relaxed towards matters or sex, making both more and less a deal of it if that makes sense. I think people in the Eclipse Phase world have more sex in general, but feel it's not as a big of a deal as we make of it. Anyway, enough talk from me. How do you represent gender and sexuality in Eclipse Phase? Is your portrayal coloured by certain stereotypes? Do you have an even representation of sex and gender among your NPCs (or characters)? Would you like help and advice for how to improve or change your portrayal (in one direction or another)? Do you have any tips or tricks that can be helpful for the rest of us?
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Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
Well, I happen to play
Well, I happen to play someone who was born male, and strongly identifies as such, so I don't think I have much to say on trans issues except that I wonder if it will even need a label. In such a world, would it really matter what gender you were born as? On the occasions I roleplay a female, I portray them much like my male characters, barring occasions where the distinction is important. Progress marches on, and my personal belief is that most differences between male and female are due to societal pressures. Finally, as far as sexuality goes, I've always had a few rules: if it's sapient, of age, and wants it, then why not sleep with it? I imagine this is more prevalent in the world of EP, as progress marches ever on. That said, I imagine uplifts and animal based pods present new issues which should be dealt with: human and scurrier is the new white and black.
Evilnerf Evilnerf's picture
Well, as a GM. I don't
Well, as a GM. I don't really worry about what sex the character was born as. I use he or she depending onhow they identify themselves on their social networks (since players would have access to that info), regardless of what morph they are in.
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
As a player I've played an
As a player I've played an asexual female AGI, a pansexual male, and an asexual sex-repulsed woman (Who spent a good deal of the campaign in a deteriorating unaugmented male ruster, which was a thoroughly unpleasant experience for someone used to customized and majorly modified mentons, remades, and other top-of-the-line biomorphs...) As a GM... My players didn't really interact with people much. It was a gatecrashing game, and even when back on Portal, my PCs tended to try to stay pretty isolated (Frankly, the community probably appreciated it). I had a handful of queer NPCs in there, but it didn't come up all that often. I sort of regret not throwing a few non-binary-gendered characters into their experience, but I was having a gender identity crisis of my own at the time and didn't want to do a bad job of it. I'm running another campaign with a different group in the fall. I plan to emphasize the gender and sexual diversity of the setting a lot more this time around. (Zes and theys all around!) One thing I think is really important is to make sure that the "unusual" genders and sexual orientations are represented in human transhumans as well as the uplift and AGI ones. Scifi has a lot of asexual or agender robots, and I think it's easy to make [i]all[/i] your asexual/agender/third gender/etc. characters AGIs or uplifts or aliens. (Well, probably not aliens in this setting but you know what I mean) And this really reinforces the idea that these identities are not "naturally human" which is kind of a shitty thing to do.
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Good to see people joining the discussion
Urthdigger wrote:
Well, I happen to play someone who was born male, and strongly identifies as such, so I don't think I have much to say on trans issues except that I wonder if it will even need a label. In such a world, would it really matter what gender you were born as?
As to your question I think the answer is; both yes and no. No, in general I don't think it really matters all that much. However, people are complex and if your best friend suddenly declares that he is really a she and changes sex it's quite possible that would be a little weird for some people. Being used to regard a person in a certain way (including gender) and then suddenly having to change that way can be hard. So I don't think it matters as much on a societal level but it can still matter for individuals.
Evilnerf wrote:
Well, as a GM. I don't really worry about what sex the character was born as. I use he or she depending onhow they identify themselves on their social networks (since players would have access to that info), regardless of what morph they are in.
Yes, and that is how people would do it in Eclipse Phase. Even so, the only way to show that people are more okay with changing gender or inhabiting opposite-gender morphs in the transhuman future, there needs to be characters who has done just that. Lift the issues to the foreground.
Erulastant wrote:
As a GM... My players didn't really interact with people much. It was a gatecrashing game, and even when back on Portal, my PCs tended to try to stay pretty isolated (Frankly, the community probably appreciated it). I had a handful of queer NPCs in there, but it didn't come up all that often. I sort of regret not throwing a few non-binary-gendered characters into their experience, but I was having a gender identity crisis of my own at the time and didn't want to do a bad job of it.
I'm sorry to hear that; both about your identity crisis and that your players didn't really interact with people much. I really don't think you should worry about doing a bad job of portraying non-binary gendered characters. Both because you seem like a fairly good person in general and that it's often worse crime not having them at all.
Erulastant wrote:
One thing I think is really important is to make sure that the "unusual" genders and sexual orientations are represented in human transhumans as well as the uplift and AGI ones. Scifi has a lot of asexual or agender robots, and I think it's easy to make all your asexual/agender/third gender/etc. characters AGIs or uplifts or aliens. (Well, probably not aliens in this setting but you know what I mean) And this really reinforces the idea that these identities are not "naturally human" which is kind of a shitty thing to do.
You're definitely right in this. Out of all the AGIs that have featured in my games, only one has been agender and asexual. I've always assumed that most AGIs have a distinct gender identity or perhaps discovering it along the way. The NPC in the current campaign that is asexual is a normal transhuman man of Japanese origin. I must admit I haven't had many uplifts featuring in my campaigns (depends a bit on where the campaigns are located) but the two my player(s) spent any significant amount of time talking to both identified as men.
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OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
I ignore both sex and
I ignore both sex and sexuality issues. I find it annoying if players want to explore those things in the game. I think urthdigger is right and I'm personaly content to contemplate a future where there are no LGBTSQfurry issues because no one cares anymore.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Erulastant Erulastant's picture
But are all your NPCs
But are all your NPCs straight, binary-gendered, and gendered identically to their birth morph? Because if so, you're not "contemplat[ing] a future where there are no LGBTSQfurry issues because no one cares anymore." It's just continuing to pretend that LGBTQAIP+ people don't exist. Also, what's the S for?
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:I ignore
OneTrikPony wrote:
I ignore both sex and sexuality issues. I find it annoying if players want to explore those things in the game.
I think that's a very common stance among roleplayers. Personally I'm not annoyed if players want to explore those things but I'm not going to shove it down their throat either. It's up to them to bring it up but I usually make sure not to go beyond the comfortable level of or annoy another player in a group.
OneTrikPony wrote:
I think urthdigger is right and I'm personaly content to contemplate a future where there are no LGBTSQfurry issues because no one cares anymore.
And a wonderful future it would be.
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OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
My personal characters are
My personal characters are basically me with different skills and morps because there are more important things about the setting i want to explore. I'm not interested in lretending to be someone else. Players can be any thing they want because, with a thousand CP, they *can* be anything they want and there's no reason to deal with transgender pathos. I don't share and care about any persons sexuality IRL and expect people to keep it low key in the game. My policy is; deal with your issues on your own time.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
Lorsa wrote:]. I really don't
Lorsa wrote:
]. I really don't think you should worry about doing a bad job of portraying non-binary gendered characters. Both because you seem like a fairly good person in general and that it's often worse crime not having them at all.
Funny you should say that. The reason I tend to play cis males is because that's what I know, and I am sometimes worried about doing a bad portrayal. I've occasionally played a female, as it's sufficient do state she's physically female, then play her like I would a male. However, the mental issues are a bit harder to portray. Unless I go "Hi, have I mentioned I'm trans today?", it's likely to go unnoticed and I worry that in trying to call attention to it, I would portray sexist stereotypes like, I dunno, a physically male character flipping out when referred to as he.
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Mmmm... There is a book
Mmmm... There is a book called "Steel Beach" you might want to read, where changing the sex does have an impact on the main character (hormones tend to do that effect!). Personally, I've played along the years "macho" women, flirty ones, femme fatales, a wolf-woman (lupus werewolf in the Old World of Darkness), dangerous sorcerers, discreet diplomats, lunatic vampires, and a long list that ends with my female aasimar cleric of Abadar in a Pathfinder campaign (quite the architect, mind-wise). On the male camp, I've also played with a Space Marine, a techpriest (funny thing: I thought I would find more drawings of a male techpriest... I was mistaken XD), a support lancer-wielding musketeer and many more, not to count the NPCs I try to give some background and volume. And in 3rd-person computer games I prefer to play with female avatars, if for nothing else to at least enjoy seeing a nice view ;) So, after giving my references, sexuality and gender identity... Let's make some "definitions": Sexuality: what attracts you (in general terms). Go for females, males, uplifts, bots, BDSM, new experiences, groups... whatever you fancy. Gender: how you prefer to project yourself on others (related, but not limited, to your looks, behaviours, and the hormones you prefer affecting your brain). So how to represent the sexuality and the gender issues in an EP game? Unless limited by time and money/favours, a character (be it a player controlled or not) will be sleeved in a morph with the sexual equipment of his/her choosing (male, female, both or neuter), with the Kinesics skill allowing others to "read" the phisical cues that separate a coquette or a playboy from a rough-and-ready tomboy or sgt-Rock expy. And if you read between lines, you can see I go more for "archetypes" than anything else. Why? Well, I have friends who like people of their same sex, a transexual, and others who don't really care if they are sleeping with a man or a woman. All but the heterosexual males have told me at one point that you can fall in love with someone without caring about what they have between the legs (sorry for being rude here). So in EP my view about this thing is quite simple: unless needed for the game's development, its something so assimilated, it is not really taken to the front. In short, trans/hetero/homo-sexuality is important today because it is hard, in all levels. But in the setting of Eclipse Phase it can be solved with 12 hours and some credits, thus becoming quite irrelevant (THERE. It is still a very serious and important thing in our society). When would it be really relevant, aside from "elevator chat" situations? Have your womanizer "face" player sleeved into a female morph to try to seduce a male mark, for example. Have a child the group just saved to glue him/herself to the hard-ass fury-sleeved practical soldier because the rest are either male or synth (or better, the morph bares some resemblance to the absent mother... extra points if it IS the absent mother's morph!). But always in a way the player can look up for another solution or you can downplay the situation if the player feels really uncomfortable (a little is ok, it breeds character ^^).
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
I don't think I can help tl;dring all over the place.
As a GM, I actually spend a lot of time thinking about this when crafting NPCs. I'm known for tl;dr posts on this forum, and really, I could type [b]hundreds of pages[/b] about the essays/articles/books I've read (say, [i]Queering Anarchism[/i] or the Monique Wittig at the Crossroads of Criticism special issue of the [i]Journal of Lesbian and Gay Studies[/i]) and conversation/lived experiences I've had as they pertain to the foundations of my thinking on these things...so to keep it really short and really basic: From most to least diversity in gender/sexuality (general tendencies, and I use "hab" to denote any habitation, including cities and so on): scum swarms, anarchist/anti-authoritarian socialist/anti-authoritarian communist habs, extropian mutualist/an-cap habs, Titanian Commonwealth/technosocialist/democratic socialist habs, Morningstar Constellation habs, Ultimate habs, Planetary Consortium right-libertarian habs, Barsoomian habs, guanxi habs (this'd vary widely depending on what criminal org we're talking about here, but I'm just pegging a rough bell curve), authoritarian socialist/authoritarian communist habs, extropian right-libertarian habs, Tharsis League/PC Martian habs, general Planetary Consortium habs, LLA habs (probably Lunar followed by Lagrange), Jovian Republic habs Note on my placement of JR habs last: Even with the most nuanced and diverse view of them possible, the socio-cultural influence of having so many religious institutions in Jovian space engaged in memetic warfare about traditional ways of being human and the massing of non-Ultimate fascists, biocons of fascist and non-fascist flavours (although certainly there could be some very post-modern biocons that don't tie gender/sexuality to the biology they want to preserve...I'm thinking "neo-Deleuzian biovitalist" has a nice ring to it) and other reactionary/neoreactionary forces would create socially and memetically hostile environments for diversity of gender/sexuality performativity and expression...ok I said I wouldn't tl;dr this but I just had to defend myself because I present the Jovian Republic as a lot more...[i]grey area[/i], a lot more politically and socially diverse than a lot of people on these forums, and listing 'em last sort of seems like I'm one of those "WELP JOVIANS ARE SHITBAGS FOREVER" people [b]BUT THIS IS A CONSIDERED POSITION OK?![/b] (finally inhales) *cough* I thought about giving a blow by blow of the outer system (i.e. is Saturn and its satellites more diverse than Uranus? Than Neptune? Than the Kuiper Belt/Oort Cloud?) but I think that's more down to hab ideology than it is to planet PLUS I have limited time at home before I have to leave. But boy do I have a lot of meaty paragraphs pressing against the tips of my fingers right now. MUST...KEEP...TEXTWALLS...AT BAY And just to round off the post/spend some time typing before I have to head out: the players I managed to assemble for this game are all male-identifying homo sapiens playing male-identifying creatures. There is non-ape brain patterns among the various disposable shells in the party, but none of my players are as into queer and trans activism/academia/lit as I am...but that just means scum swarms are gonna be extra fun for me to run them through! I look forward to opening their eyes to a science fiction future populated with people my other circles of friends would see themselves in. Maybe they'll think all my other friends are from the future when they meet them! So far my players have been down with how I present things and don't find it intrusive in the way that, perhaps, OneTrikPony might. The collaborative storytelling process comes first, and as an anarchist I don't feel comfortable being a dictator GM. I'm telling a story [b]with[/b] my players, so I'm not going to jam anything down someone's throats. If I had a player like OTP, I'd probably tone it down because it might be impairing the fun had by a player. That said, I'd find it [b]super boring[/b] to leave out details on gender/sexuality in a hedonistic scum swarm (especially the swarm that settled a sex party planet through the Fissure Gate...Carnivale or Carnival or something?). Like, I'd feel like I failed as a GM if I described them stepping through a gate into a bunch of straight sex with the only "risque" thing being the gymnastics involved in the straight sex positions or the number of partners. *yawn* Maybe the future has ceased to think of these things as issues by the immediate years Before the Fall, but I'd imagine that if that's the case at all, it's because the diversity has [b]visibly increased[/b], which requires me as a GM to describe that increase or risk slipping into a parallel of the kind of racist trope of 1930s-50s pulp sci fi of white-washed casts of human characters and sexist depictions of the future's women that belonged in the 19th century or earlier, not in the future of the 20th.
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
consumerdestroyer wrote:I'm
consumerdestroyer wrote:
I'm known for tl;dr posts on this forum, and really, I could type [b]hundreds of pages[/b] about the essays/articles/books I've read (say,
I don't really think the problem with your posts is the length, it's the lack of good paragraph and setence structure. This particular post I have to rate among the better of yours though. Keep up the good work!
consumerdestroyer wrote:
Maybe the future has ceased to think of these things as issues by the immediate years Before the Fall, but I'd imagine that if that's the case at all, it's because the diversity has [b]visibly increased[/b], which requires me as a GM to describe that increase or risk slipping into a parallel of the kind of racist trope of 1930s-50s pulp sci fi of white-washed casts of human characters and sexist depictions of the future's women that belonged in the 19th century or earlier, not in the future of the 20th.
This is a bit of my thinking as well. When describing a world different from this, you need to bring the things that [i]are[/i] different to the forefront and not just have them in the background. What we see around us most will always be the default unless stated otherwise. I mean, if half the population in your fictional city lives in circular houses, you must specify this in your description of a specific house, not just mention "half the houses are circular". Otherwise most people will [b]still[7b] imagine a rectangular house when you say "and so you meet in his house". ---------- I'm also curious to know more about what sort of roles people put various genders in. Media today has a strong preference for making men the default protagonist and women into the one that needs to be saved. Anyone that has any good examples from their games where they broke the stereotypes and gender norms; corporation councils with mostly women, male secretaries etc? Not to mention the ratio of various "random NPCs"; do you default to male or do you keep a 50/50 ratio?
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BonSequitur BonSequitur's picture
Depending on where the game
Depending on where the game is set, a lot of random NPCs might be either neither or just ambiguous - You can't tell what gender someone sleeved into a novacrab or a swarmanoid identifies as without poking into their mesh profile, for example.
Hell is other people's forks.
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
I don't see how that's any
I don't see how that's any more ambiguous... You can't tell the gender of someone sleeved into a flat just by looking, either. I think I got pretty close to a 50/50 ratio last game I ran. Next time I'll be aiming for something more like 45/45/10. At least for major NPCs. Most of the nameless background characters were probably defaulted to male because I wasn't actively thinking about their gender and media influence and all.
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
kindalas kindalas's picture
As a GM..
As a GM I decided that the majority of Posthumans (The bulk of the PCs) have evolved to a new level of gender identity where whatever their current combination of body gender (or lack) and personality gender (or lack) is a conscious choice. As far as Tanshumans go generally gender is acknowledged as what a individual was born/identifies as. Basically there is no more cis and trans prefixes, just the gender(s) a person identifies as. Individuals who switch things up and experiment heavily in roles and such tend to fall into the Posthuman categories. And then they have thethe gender of body that they are stuck with. So in many Transhuman societies people in their mess profile list their gender then their morphs gender and then often their preferences. So you could easily see a Male in a Female, who is hetero and interested in Females in Females. It is needless to say that it gets even more complex then sexuality and gender are today. What has really taken a nose dive in transhuman and postuman cultures is the concept of predefined gender roles. Gender roles have only really survived in cultures that either have a large population of people in their original bodies or who took exceptional steps to ensure that when egos are reinstantiated and resleeved they were put into bodies that matched their genders (of birth of from self identification). Currently strong gender roles have survived in some isolated Martian communities, some biconservative communities(but notably not in the Jovian Republic), and surprisingly (well not really as scum swarms are all over the map) in some scum swarms. I decided that the Jovian Republic decided early on that to protect the survivors of humanity children would have to be gestated in heavily shielded (from radiation) bio-wombs and since old fashioned pregnancies were rare to non-existent the reinforced gender roles bled away in the struggle to survive. As a Player I like playing AGI and other far from the normal path concepts so gender tends to be in the non existent category. And as a player and as a GM as a group I'm not playing to heavily explore gender roles and issues in a post apocalyptic horror science fiction setting and I wouldn't join a game that was to heavily explore those themes, I'd rather fight Exsurgents. Kindalas
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BonSequitur BonSequitur's picture
Erulastant wrote:I don't see
Erulastant wrote:
I don't see how that's any more ambiguous... You can't tell the gender of someone sleeved into a flat just by looking, either.
Point taken, but at the same time even in the transhuman future, gender expression is still a thing - but what does gender expression look like for people sleeved into exotic morphs? Also - Pleasure pods can change their sexual organs, and one of the many operations that healing vats perform is exactly that. I don't think it's likely many people are sleeved long-term in bodies that they don't feel match their identity, unless they don't experience discomfort or care about it. You're much more likely to be uncomfortably sleeved in a cheap synth that doesn't have sexual characteristics at all.
Hell is other people's forks.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Sex, sexuality, and gender,
Sex, sexuality, and gender, have all come up in my game. Hell, one character's losing her virginity was actually worth a point of Rez! It went towards a Motivation of +Personal Improvement. (I was all "Wait, what?" when the player reminded me about that, then I was all "Eh, yeah, sure.") My players seem to like exploring those themes. Who am I to argue? :)
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ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Yep. My players are awesome.
Yep. My players are awesome. Two of them are +Hedonism, in fact. My last game began with them investigating a guy who got his head taken off by a high-pressure air pipe explosion in a maintenance corridor in the centrifugally rotating part of [i]Ecstatic Metamorphosis[/i], flagship of the [i]Get Your Ass to Mars[/i] swarm. (I arc-welded the GYAtM Swarm and the unnamed Swarm from Mind the WMD.) It ended with the fully-armored amazon and the naked catgirl-angel pleasure pod talking philosophy in a bathhouse while the Scurrier and the bunny-boi Hybernoid blew each other immediately adjacent to them... And talked philosophy with them courtesy of text chat. It was said that we had "hit Peak EP." Then someone alleged that we hadn't quite hit Peak EP, as to do that they'd all have to be forks of one another. (I love my group.)
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Googleshng Googleshng's picture
Interesting point worth
Interesting point worth making- In the real world, being trans isn't a psychological thing, but an actual medical condition where the physical structure of a person's brain and the mix of hormones it requires to properly function don't match up with what their body is passing along, which in turn causes them some nasty problems. In Eclipse Phase, when you resleeve, you aren't moving your brain into a new body, you're just "copying all of the files over" and actually dealing with the brain structure of your new morph (hence morph based bonuses and caps on what are officially purely mental stats). So while you could, say, take a flat transwoman, resleeve them into a new female morph, and alleviate things that way, you couldn't take a transwoman and a transman, have them swap morphs, and be fine. They'd just end up in the confusing situation of having a brain structure matching their old body but mismatched for their new one. Similarly you if you had a good ol' fashioned cis straight white dude, and resleeved him to a morph originally owned by a transwoman, despite having an outwardly male body still, suddenly he's going to have to deal with all kinds of depression and other mental health issues if he doesn't go in for some hormone replacement (meanwhile, the transwoman from that first example would also be pretty well off resleeving into a cis male body). Mechanically, being trans would be a specifically morph-based issue, which I suppose falls under the Lemon trait. That said, presumably transgender terminology would adapt with the times, people would use "gender" to refer personal preference in morph sex, as a purely psychological thing, with new terminology created for the actual, physical, brain/body mismatch condition. As for prejudice against homosexuality and the transgendered (using either definition), I don't see that going away at all. Bigotry has a pretty good track record for ignoring the facts and actively pushing back against progressive social movements, so I'm sure even in communities with regular resleeving you'd find plenty of people who staunchly believe that if you're born in a morph with a penis, you darn well better make sure anything you resleeve into has one, and only be interested in "real authentic 100% women" who do likewise. They'd just have a wider assortment of people to come up with nasty slurs for. Presumably you'd even find a few on scum barges here and there.
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
I think you could make a
I think you could make a whole game about how it feels to jump from sex to sex in different bodies with your same brain structure. That's not what our game's about; it's more interested in talking about how being able to transition with only minor complications is empowering for many characters. But yeah, there's some territory there to be plumbed. I'd recommend not-our-current-rules for taking a deep dive on that aspect, though.
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
wait didn't i read in the
wait didn't i read in the books there is gene mods or bio mods that allow for spontaneous sex changing over the period of a week or few days? definitely recall medi vats able to do it. and on the hormone trouble part i think the amphibian way would properly account for that. medi vats who knows since we have conquered genetic rejection issues. my rp groups tend to leave sexuality in the abstract ways. yes we occasionally have romantic interests but they gget "serious" and seduction is generally die roll only with details left unsaid. gota love societal conditioning and how the internet allows you to relax social norms
DrewDavis DrewDavis's picture
ORCACommander wrote:wait didn
ORCACommander wrote:
wait didn't i read in the books there is gene mods or bio mods that allow for spontaneous sex changing over the period of a week or few days?
Yes you did. On page 305, in fact. Pleasure Pods come standard with this bio mod.
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
I really think that playing
I really think that playing homo/trans sexuality, transgender/cross-sleeving, and contemporary gender issues as relevant in AF:10 is anachronism. Maybe that is just my wishfull thinking but given the technology; miraclemed-vats, a fully understood genome and psycho surgury I can't see how any of these things could still be a problem for anyone. I just don't understand why (for example), a female technician, male crech nurse, hemaphrodite prostitute, or Fury sleeved male super soldier make compelling characters. This is a game about TRANS-HUMANISM. Sure that stuf can be in the background but it isnt anything special. Humanity is way past exploring sexual parafigms and has moved on to deciding what HUMAN means. Realize that, since we have lost our native biosphere, the big issue is whether the BIOLOGICAL paradigm is even functional any longer. Thats what I mean when I say there are more important issues to explore in the game.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Googleshng Googleshng's picture
Being trans is a pretty
Being trans is a pretty solved problem (for people with the resources to address it anyway). Just get a new morph. You can end up as whichever sex you want with no complications, awesome. But are you suggesting that in the setting of Eclipse Phase, homosexuality would no longer be a thing? Because that's a whole crazy can of worms you're opening if you are. Assuming we have the technology to edit sexuality on the fly (safe bet with all the other crazy things the setting has going), you're then assuming transhumanity as a whole would be inclined to set the toggle to straight for all new births (which doesn't really jive with the pro-diversity social trends of the setting, uplifting animals and designing AIs and designing all kinds of crazy variant morphs, etc.), you'd then also be assuming that the current 10% or so of the global population (we're not far enough into the future for everyone to have died off) that are gay (or bi, or straight if you're arguing bi as the ideal) would sign up for the orientation flip. I really don't see that happening in significant numbers. Pretty fundamental part of a person's identity, huge impact on all their interpersonal relationships, etc. And I'm sure even if you did somehow hit a point where there was only a single sexuality, you'd have a few people using the same means by which that was established to upset it, just out of that pure insatiable curiosity transhumanity has. On the other hand, if you're just arguing that people would have moved past all the [i]social[/i] issues of prejudice and so forth, I just don't see it. The dominant culture of transhumanity at large has pretty clearly drifted a fair bit to the left on this sort of thing based on... more or less all printed material, but you can't really eliminate bigotry entirely. You're always going to have people using any differences they have as an excuse to hate them. More avenues for diversity are just going to give you more flavors of bigotry. And I'd imagine if technology existed such that you really could change your sex and sexuality on a whim, the sort of people who like to argue that being gay is a choice (and an immoral one to make, of course) would be rather emboldened. Also, despite what the mechanics make easily available to PCs, it's worth keeping in mind that PCs are part of this insanely elite minority of the population. The vast majority of the population exist only as infomorph backups, desperate to get their hands on any morph at all. If and when someone finally manages to get their hands on one, odds are pretty good it's going to be used, and they won't have the option to be picky about it. If I'm not forgetting a point on the timeline, most people in an actual biomorph in AF 10 were likely born in it, with little reason to ever swap out. It's only been 10 years since resleeving really became a Thing To Do for the average person, otherwise it'd mostly be the domain of those in specialized fields, the idle rich, and people dealing with medical problems that can't otherwise be solved... and even then they'd probably just get clones of themselves. I'd doubt the novelty of meeting people in vastly different morphs than what they started is going to have worn off for the average person. The average PC, the average scum barge resident sure. But... Joe Martian, Jane Lunarian, and Ivan Infomorph? Probably not something they see much of.
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
Just going to say about your
Just going to say about your first paragraph that it assumed sexuality is a genetic factor and that child birth rates have massively dropped do to near immortality and lack of habitable space.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Sex: A Thing That Happens.
When I finally get to actually play EP [Frustration Mode Offline], I'm going to make personal gender be largely an outmoded concept. Your gender defined by the neurology of the morph you occupy. If you're in a non-winterist neutral or synthmorph, you simply stop having a sex drive - this is one of the reasons people tend not to like being in synths. Instead, egos have a preferred morph gender, which tends to coincide with the gender they were born with - they're just used to it. Similarly, they have a morph gender they prefer engaging in intercourse with, as opposed to an archaic "orientation". Physically, I'll rule that the neural components defining gender are largely autonomic, and as such aren't effected by resleeving, any more than the ability to move limbs or keep the digestive system functioning. Those components of the brain which aren't autonomic will have been altered to function as male or female as required, to avoid the problems Googleshng pointed out. Bigotry will largely not be a problem; most consider it nonsensical when your moral standing is defined by what you wear, and those few that would have a problem have it buried under the much greater “sin” of resleeving. I'm tempted to include a twist on sexism in some habitats where performing specific jobs may require the morph you're wearing to have a specific gender, with the social view being that it is identical to wearing a uniform. The fact that furies are all female gives this some credence. So you could be a male lawyer for your day job, and then switch to female for a night on the town. Ultimately, I'm letting my personal bias shine through. I simply find gender/sexuality boring, and I like the idea of a transhuman future where people simply don't care as much about them as they do today; changing gender or sexual preference should have as much importance as changing hair colour. There's also always the risk of “Hey! Look how weird and crazy the EP universe is! It's so wild, transexuals are considered normal! Isn't that weird !!!! 'In a post apocalyptic wasteland, where homosexuals roam the streets like normal people...'
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
I tend to try to leave gender
I tend to try to leave gender issues out of games in general, and avoid GMs that bring it to the forefront. Namely, because such things tend to anger me fast, as the GMs and players tend to make odd, and quite frankly, idiotic and even flat out wrong and insulting conclusions about such topics as they are pretty much always cis, while I am IS and not particularly open about it in public and with friends. The most common mistake (some of you guys are doing it too) is confusing gender role and fashion choices with actual gender, which is internal and how you relate to the world on a mental level. For example, fight/flight isn't nearly as simplistic in women, as they have a get help from others option sorta hard coded in; it's why they tend to chose less lethal means for suicide and often tend to be obvious about it before they attempt it, as it's a cry for help, meanwhile men keep it secret as they are fighting until they can't fight anymore, and use guaranteed methods for a quick and messy out. This isn't a social thing, as you can see these patterns play out in children well before society has started to program more complex expectations into them. Why would gender issues come up in a game? Aside for the occasional needing a body fast and not caring what you get, chances are, your character is going to chose the sex and body phenotype they are mentally (gotta love mind/body maps). And being in such a mismatched body is going to cause constant dysphoria issues anyways. Body hopping isn't supposed to be "fun". It's supposed to be confusing and sort of terrifying; and I'm glad this game's rules sort of reflect that. The fluff text seems to be nothing more than a bunch of people putting on a brave face in order to seem unafraid in the hopes that maybe some day, they will be.
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
@ googleshng;
@ googleshng; A.) Im not sure why I have to be explicit on this point but: I have/would not/never suggest that EP tech is used to make people "not be GAY". B.) I am also not suggesting that transhuman kind is free from bigotry, tribalism, zenophobia, cliquishness etc. I do hold the viewpoint that bigotry is harnessed to cultural and religious mores and as culture changes in response to environment and religion is forced to rationalize itself in responce to increasing education and intelligence among it's adherants, the tendency to bigotry is transfered to different targets.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Ok, I guess I just have to
Ok, I guess I just have to breake down and ask; What is "cis" and "IS"? Also; I have permision from Lorsa to expand the discussion to include sexuality and gender roles/identity among the clanking masses and info-life. I'm not sure how to ask the questions I have without being offensive or making myself a target for (deserved?) retribution against my clade; straight-redneck-males. When considering my questions and comments please understand that I am not sensitive to verbiage or confrontation and that political correctness bewilders me. These failings do not make me unkind or unloving and I'm sure you could see this if we were face to face. I am concerned with gender identity and maintenance of sexual health for those sleeved in synthetic or infomorphs. While I see gender *roles* in my society as largely limiting or even toxic, I suspect that gender identity is important and will continue to be in the future. I accept the limitations and certainly enjoy the benefeits of being physicaly and emotionaly male. The corolary is true for the females that I know. I think most people would feel a lack when sleeving a synth with no way to sexually communcate who they are and no way to act on or act out on attraction. I would also be disatisfied in an infomorph. I'm certain of this but I can't precicely articulate why. The potential to minutely adjust ones own image, environment, virtual interactive form, emotional emulation response etc. can be assumed when the mind realy is just software. In that case I immagine the totality of one's experience to be completely masturbatory and ultimately nihilistic. What I know I don't understand is transgender in the environment of EP. I may confuse being transgender with body gender dysmorphia. I know from talking to a friend that male/female dysmorphia is unimmaginably painful, (I thank whatever gods that be he survived his crysis for me to know him.) I don't know that being transgender is painful other than a misunderstanding society making one's life shit. I'm wondering if people who are (content or not) transgender, or dysmorphic(sp?), or in some way alt/gender might have an important perspective to share on the implications and implementation of synthetic and info-life? (I feel this is important because I consider it to be an eventuality for human kind.) I am also dimly aware that Queer culture is a thing, that it is distinct from, (or posibly encompases), GAY culture--which I'm not sure is still a thing, and that there is more to it than the occaisionally interesting porn I run accross while surfing the web--that is to say; queer culture is not primarily concerned with sexuality and is concerned with more than the trite PLUR tatooed above the mons of a girl I met at a pride parade If I'm not way off base, perhaps some familiar with queer culture could extrapolate and answer to some of the questions of gender identity and sexuality in "Clanker" and mercurial culture?

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Googleshng Googleshng's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:@
OneTrikPony wrote:
@ googleshng; A.) Im not sure why I have to be explicit on this point but: I have/would not/never suggest that EP tech is used to make people "not be GAY".
Good to know! I still don't see how it ceases to be a relevant issue for the setting though. I mean, homosexuality has been around longer than humanity has, and we're only just now, in America, kinda sorta reaching a general level of acceptability with the whole thing in the more liberal parts of the country, which is quite a bit ahead of a surprising number of countries you'd think we'd be lagging behind. Global acceptance within... what is it like 100 years give or take? Would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath. And of course, there's still going to be the issue of "Hey, wanna go get a drink somewhere?" "Sorry, I'm gay." which COULD potentially be solved by "Oh really? What's your type? I've got a friend in the morph business and all, meet you here again tomorrow?" but I don't really see most people having the resources or inclination to jump that particular hurdle (unless they're a seriously committed social climber maybe).
Quote:
B.) I am also not suggesting that transhuman kind is free from bigotry, tribalism, zenophobia, cliquishness etc. I do hold the viewpoint that bigotry is harnessed to cultural and religious mores and as culture changes in response to environment and religion is forced to rationalize itself in responce to increasing education and intelligence among it's adherants, the tendency to bigotry is transfered to different targets.
To a point sure, but transhumanity is scattered over a bunch of really remote locations which take years to communicate with each other given the lack of any sort of FTL, and isolated pockets of people are traditionally not the best at universally embracing new ideas from elsewhere even without those sorts of distances involved. Also, for what it's worth: Cis- = The opposite of Trans- but outside of certain scientific fields (and discussions like this), it's not something you see too often. IS = Intersexed (if I'm not mistaken), as in, people who fall somewhere in the spectrum between physically male and female, which is, contrary to popular misconception, not at all the same thing as being a hermaphrodite, which specifically refers to creatures that can reproduce with any other member of their species.
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
Lorsa wrote:I'm also curious
Lorsa wrote:
I'm also curious to know more about what sort of roles people put various genders in. Media today has a strong preference for making men the default protagonist and women into the one that needs to be saved. Anyone that has any good examples from their games where they broke the stereotypes and gender norms; corporation councils with mostly women, male secretaries etc? Not to mention the ratio of various "random NPCs"; do you default to male or do you keep a 50/50 ratio?
My tendency is to refer to every NPC with the singular they, and if questions are asked it's basically a Research test every time. Even if they are "obviously" presenting as male or female or what have you, especially in a future where one can sleeve into whatever, that info might be either locked down or contrary to expectations. That said, I tend to go with a "PR damage control" view of Planetary Consortium space, where they're trying to present themselves as the place where you have all the freedom that the Autonomist Alliance crows about on the mesh without any of the horrible dangers. So from that perspective, I tend to think that even the most arrogant politicians and oligarchs'd be more than willing to do (for marketing/advertising/PR/image purposes) "presentation quotas" where no matter what the gender/sexual ID of high-ups in hypercorps actually are, they're supposed to sleeve into a certain equitable distribution of biomorphs to give off the appearance that they're being equitable...but it may even be the case that they're looking for people who ID in diverse ways to avoid mesh scandals about mostly heterosexual male makeups on a Board of Directors even though it's a nice evenly sliced piechart of presentation (sort of like a socio-economic/socio-political version of the metacelebrities that the core book brings up). So while my players have yet to go before a "powerful" individual/group of individuals just yet, I think when they do I plan to show them a very picturesque view of the face of forward-thinking technoprogressive hypercapitalist power...it's just that unless they feel like digging on that particular issue, it might be an aspect of the glossy veneer that they (both as players and as characters) actually buy into. Certainly any media feed will have plenty of women and people outside the gender binary as mouthpieces for PC political and economic orgs...they want to say, "See, the anarchists are wrong!" in as many ways as they can, after all!
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:What I know
OneTrikPony wrote:
What I know I don't understand is transgender in the environment of EP. I may confuse being transgender with body gender dysmorphia. I know from talking to a friend that male/female dysmorphia is unimmaginably painful, (I thank whatever gods that be he survived his crysis for me to know him.) I don't know that being transgender is painful other than a misunderstanding society making one's life shit. I'm wondering if people who are (content or not) transgender, or dysmorphic(sp?), or in some way alt/gender might have an important perspective to share on the implications and implementation of synthetic and info-life? (I feel this is important because I consider it to be an eventuality for human kind.)
My own history of sexual/romantic partners includes people who, like me, ID outside the gender binary. I find people dismissing male and female as "socially constructed" (while well meaning in terms of trying to highlight socially constructed oppressions and restrictions of what it can mean to be "a man" or "a woman") often end up invalidating/putting under erasure people who ID within the binary but in a way that society doesn't necessarily put a lot of weight behind (or [b]does[/b] put a lot of oppressive weight on top of) like trans women trying to ID as women. That said, I think that in a future where we don't know what the socio-cultural and historical processes/events/dialogues/communities will be between our present and the future of 10 A.F. more than a century (maybe more than a few centuries, depending on the GM) after present day, it's fine to speculate...I mean, sci fi is speculative fiction after all! So if you want a future where ideas of gender have largely fallen away and no one IDs as the historically constructed categories of "man" and "woman" outside of brinker communities in the Kuiper Belt, then that's fine! But it seems as though, as written, the setting implies the divisions still exist and that highlighting the inequalities of those divisions is still seen as important (I think there's a mention somewhere of a group of Asian queer/trans activists in a scum swarm? anyone know the book/page number?), and I think it's important to recognize that the only limit is your imagination! So, as an example answer to your question: maybe there are groups of trans activists/advocates that are wholly (and voluntarily) infomorph because it allows complete control at the whims of one's own thought over how your avatar appears to others. But for others, this might be seen as placing the trans community in cold storage, which would marginalize transgender transhumans (what a mouthful!) right out of reality without the cisgender social forces needing any kind of institutionalized oppression to force that future for them. Even today, there are debates about assimilation versus the right to live one's life freely and healthily without assimilating to "normal" cultural values (for example, adopting the heteronormative practice of "marriage" as a queer rights issue is actually quite contentious with many queer homo sapiens, myself included, especially when queer homelessness is as much of an issue as it is). I think, honestly, that any reaction you can imagine someone having to the future life of infomorphs will be (and should be!) had somewhere out there! Same goes for being sleeved into synthmorphs. Some people, like the combat-oriented sample character in the quick-start adventure, see all that hormonal/biological sexmess as a distraction, and actively choose neuter biomorphs and love to be sleeved into synthmorphs...but some people might think that without the ability to desire in romantic/sexual ways, that other kinds of desire are somehow a pale programmatic shadow (asexuals who feel they're living their lives to the fullest even in our time might find that stance offensive, but then again there are asexuals who actually think desire of any kind is a stressful thing worth truncating/eliminating if possible). To me, the future = diversity. To me, queerness = diversity. They go hand in hand naturally when I think about the future of Eclipse Phase and how to present it! I don't want my players to meet five asexuals over the course of a year long game and have each one be a carbon copy of the others any more than I want them to have every trans lesbian be the same or every straight man be the same!
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
I say "That said" a lot. I
I say "That said" a lot. I feel like Brad Stand in [i]I ♥ Huckabees[/i] telling the Shania Twain tuna sandwich story when I read that cropping up in my posts.
Ikky Ikky's picture
Nope
http://i.imgur.com/M1gluzY.gif Before this thread dissolves into modern world issues and opinion arguments over such when the topic was; what I hope, how body swapping, different bodies their hormones (Or lack of them) and such easy and painless freedom to do it in a crazy advanced future might lead to fun/awkward/silly/hedonistic shenanigans and character advancement/party bonding. I think furies are normally female because they're bred to be aggressive and have a pack mentality, and male ones might be a little...Dominance aggressive with those crazy genetic instincts and hormones, do you really want the party fury pissmarking his territory?
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
I like the idea of egocasting
I like the idea of egocasting to a hab and being autosleeved by a clinic AI and finding the hab empty of life with evidence of heavy combat everywhere, blood stains and fragments of morphs both bio and synth littering the corridors in zero g...and everything smells [b]REALLY[/b] strongly of piss, with the smell getting stronger towards two areas of the station: the two areas where two egos sleeved into male fury morphs have hunkered down to prepare for final assaults on the other one's area so the entire hab can be their territory!
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
You'd think they'd just
You'd think they'd just reduce the testosterone level in the male furies, but, nope, if you're going to emasculate them may as well go the whole way!
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
Emasculate? MORE LIKE
Emasculate? [b]MORE LIKE HYPERMASCULATE[/b] *AR advertisement for male fury morphs intrudes on your entoptic display, showing a bunch of throbbing veiny dicks pissing all over the place before your muse can enable filters*
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Hmm. So no one has any
Hmm. So no one has any speculations on the gender identity and social sexual effects of millions of people being sleeved in synthmorphs? How does that sector of society express their gender and sexual behavior? What kind of culture will develop among the clanking masses As a PC how have you immagined the gender and sexuality of your character when sleeved in a synth ir infomorph?

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
granted i have not read the
granted i have not read the manga but i can't help but think of the Major from Ghost in the Shell OTP. She is a lesbian, albeit at the authors own prejudices, identifies as a female in a female shaped synth. she has been in a synth since childhood and the result is she is very cold. I think that more duration as a synth in the formative years more than anything crippled her emotional complex. her romantic liaisons seem casual and she only has a surface feeling of friendship and a bit stronger one for anger
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:Hmm. So no
OneTrikPony wrote:
Hmm. So no one has any speculations on the gender identity and social sexual effects of millions of people being sleeved in synthmorphs? How does that sector of society express their gender and sexual behavior? What kind of culture will develop among the clanking masses As a PC how have you immagined the gender and sexuality of your character when sleeved in a synth ir infomorph?
Like I said above, I imagine it'd be pretty diverse. There'd be transhumans (straight and queer and everything in between and beyond) that would find it stifling, others that might discover a newfound comfort (or fetish, or what have you), and I think the subcultures would accrete around those various trends. So, for instance, you'd probably have synthmorph fetishists who have parts of their ego stimulated to the point of neurological ecstasy by being in a neuter tech body as well as a portion of those sleeved in synthmorphs feeling incredibly oppressed by the lack of biology to interface with other biology. Even in some of those, this might manifest as intense urges that are eternally frustrated as long as they're an indenture sleeved in a case, but for others it might manifest as a deadening of those urges and then existential dread or heightened anxiety about ever returning to normal (hell, I imagine there are some psychosurgeons out there whose specialty is getting libidos of ex-indentures into regular order), although I also imagine there will be some who simply never experience long term negative side effects from being sleeved in a synthmorph for years when they next are able to sleeve into a biomorph. Diversity!
Googleshng Googleshng's picture
Cut-and-dry answers.
Ikky wrote:
Before this thread dissolves into modern world issues and opinion arguments over such when the topic was; what I hope, how body swapping, different bodies their hormones (Or lack of them) and such easy and painless freedom to do it in a crazy advanced future might lead to fun/awkward/silly/hedonistic shenanigans and character advancement/party bonding.
With just about any other game, the official response to that sort of thing is more or less always "We think it's best to just leave that sort of thing for individuals to decide, based on whatever your individual group is comfortable with." With Eclipse Phase though, "That's on page 272." The alienation test made when resleeving is, straight up a cut-and dry game mechanic for determining how your character mentally copes with whatever new crazy body and brain chemistry they now have to deal with. If you are the manliest manly man who ever manned, you resleeve into a female morph, and you crit your alienation test, then officially, by the rules as written, you immediately abandon that old self-image, all the macho mental baggage hang-ups that went with it, and [b]so[/b] fully make peace with the fact that you are now a woman and how that's totally cool that you stop stressing out about other things that have been bringing you down. Botch your alienation test, and you're going to be really creeped out by the new plumbing and hormones and all that. Or you might actually be cool with that and just really preoccupied with how weird it is that you are now an octopus. On a similar level of "wow, they really lay it out like that?" it is outright specified in Transhuman people sleeved into scurrier morphs just have to deal with the unfamiliarity of going into heat now and then. As for furies, there's a lot of ways one could interpret that blurb, ranging from decidedly mild (players, don't use your stats as an excuse to push the rest of the party around) to odd little reference rationalization (justifying William Gibson's habit of having Tough Sexy Bodyguard Girls With Mirror Shades all over) to really quite creepy (you have a hardcoded inclination to find yourself a nice proper alpha male to think of as your pack leader and try your best to make him appreciate you). The scent marking theory is way more amusing than any of those though. Oh, and on the synth morph front: I'd say when you don't have a sex, you don't have a sex drive (this is the principle which leads people to have their pets spayed and neutered after all), but if you were in a biomorph at some point, you're going to remember what it was like. Gender is largely out the window too, so far as no longer having a hormone regulated brain to do your thinking with, but gender identity is something most people are probably going to want to cling to as part of their whole "I'm not a piece of software I'm a human being (or possibly a dolphin)!" mindset. So sure, on a certain level it'd be going through the motions in the abstract, a lot of case morphs probably go overboard dressing and acting in ways that express their old gender as best they can. ... and plenty of others would shrug, move on, and just focus on their hobbies all the harder.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:Hmm. So no
OneTrikPony wrote:
Hmm. So no one has any speculations on the gender identity and social sexual effects of millions of people being sleeved in synthmorphs? How does that sector of society express their gender and sexual behavior? What kind of culture will develop among the clanking masses As a PC how have you immagined the gender and sexuality of your character when sleeved in a synth ir infomorph?
´ I guess it is some combination of: - the synthmorph being styled to give a gender identity - psychosurgery or some cyberbrain remapping to make the ego identify with their synth body and respond sexually to synths - everything sexual is handled with VR and AR. Sure your wife is sleeved in a case, but AR makes her seem like a flesh and blood woman. I run synthmorphs like any other PC regarding gender, just their attitude towards it is reflected more in their physical appearance. So the sex-oblivious tech that in a biomorph would not care about his appearance at all, he's in a purely functional synthmorph. The extroverted journalist has picked and modified a synthmorph that reflects their personality and sexuality.
Ikky Ikky's picture
Wall o' text
Erulastant wrote:
You'd think they'd just reduce the testosterone level in the male furies, but, nope, if you're going to emasculate them may as well go the whole way!
Admittedly, this is how I play it with my barsoomian, only because it's just so fun to be dominance aggressive in one body to the point he ID's as Male Primalis (Because that doesn't look silly) but out of it he's just...Confident and cocky. I guess this was the point of my Nope post.
OneTrikPony wrote:
Synthmorph questions
Honestly, I really wanna say the idea of gender ID would be a more cognitively secure thing without hormones of a rental bio/pod constantly nagging otherwise, and AR/simspace avatars would be the main way to express that, maybe for the sake to make things less awkward. Although I'd also assume gender ID is something on a basic mesh profile when approaching strangers.
ORCAcommander wrote:
granted i have not read the manga but i can't help but think of the Major from Ghost in the Shell OTP. She is a lesbian, albeit at the authors own prejudices, identifies as a female in a female shaped synth.
You thinking of this scene? http://youtu.be/Wbp2-WTO2jk?t=17m48s (First Gig's also on the playlist if you wanna watch it)
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
consumerdestroyer wrote
consumerdestroyer wrote:
Emasculate? [b]MORE LIKE HYPERMASCULATE[/b] *AR advertisement for male fury morphs intrudes on your entoptic display, showing a bunch of throbbing veiny dicks pissing all over the place before your muse can enable filters*
This is why [i]no one[/i] likes male fury morphs. Too macho. Too much machismo. I kinda see Furies as bonobos in a way. Females are extremely loyal and dedicated to each other. Form strong cliques, trust each other, want to do [i]everything[/i] together. And they shun hypermasculine males. [color=green] "Oh god, Joane. Here he comes again, waiving that dick around like he owns the place."[/color] [color=green] "Should I get my knife? Show him who runs the place?"[/color] [color=green] "Nah, just ignore him! He'll go away... [/color][color=green] "...and if he doesn't, then we cut his beloved dick off!"[/color] [color=green] The group of female furies at the bar laugh. [/color] [center]**********************[/center]
Googleshng wrote:
With Eclipse Phase though, "That's on page 272." The alienation test made when resleeving is, straight up a cut-and dry game mechanic for determining how your character mentally copes with whatever new crazy body and brain chemistry they now have to deal with. If you are the manliest manly man who ever manned, you resleeve into a female morph, and you crit your alienation test, then officially, by the rules as written, you immediately abandon that old self-image, all the macho mental baggage hang-ups that went with it, and [b]so[/b] fully make peace with the fact that you are now a woman and how that's totally cool that you stop stressing out about other things that have been bringing you down. Botch your alienation test, and you're going to be really creeped out by the new plumbing and hormones and all that. Or you might actually be cool with that and just really preoccupied with how weird it is that you are now an octopus.
That is an interesting way to look at it. But, getting used to a body vastly different from your original one (or the one you have spent the longest in and is ingrained in your head as [i]you[/i]) is highly unlikely according to these same rules.
Quote:
...justifying William Gibson's habit of having Tough Sexy Bodyguard Girls With Mirror Shades all over....
You need an excuse for that?
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Cyberbrains - emulators aren't just for videogames any more!
One of thing to keep in mind is that cyberbrains would have to be able to simulate hormonal effects. Maybe not as well as a meat-brain (and that is an interesting idea for why biomorphs and even pods are preferred over synths) but I find it difficult to believe every single drive would disappear when you sleeved in.
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
Ikky wrote:
Ikky wrote:
You thinking of this scene? http://youtu.be/Wbp2-WTO2jk?t=17m48s (First Gig's also on the playlist if you wanna watch it)
one of them
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
The discussion of male furies
The discussion of male furies keeps making me think of Mr. Torque from Borderlands.
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Before I share my thoughts on
Before I share my thoughts on the synthmorph issue I'll make a quickly reply to one of your previous posts.
OneTrikPony wrote:
I really think that playing homo/trans sexuality, transgender/cross-sleeving, and contemporary gender issues as relevant in AF:10 is anachronism. Maybe that is just my wishfull thinking but given the technology; miraclemed-vats, a fully understood genome and psycho surgury I can't see how any of these things could still be a problem for anyone.
Hopefully it wouldn't be a problem for anyone. I don't think that playing as these things being large issues is the point either. However, gender will most likely still be important to people. Given how important gender identity is to many people today, I doubt it will just cease to be a thing as long as people still define themselves as transhuman.
OneTrikPony wrote:
I just don't understand why (for example), a female technician, male crech nurse, hemaphrodite prostitute, or Fury sleeved male super soldier make compelling characters.
What is a compelling character? Personally I find them compelling because they break the norm of today. But then again I find lots of characters compelling.
OneTrikPony wrote:
This is a game about TRANS-HUMANISM. Sure that stuf can be in the background but it isnt anything special. Humanity is way past exploring sexual parafigms and has moved on to deciding what HUMAN means. Realize that, since we have lost our native biosphere, the big issue is whether the BIOLOGICAL paradigm is even functional any longer. Thats what I mean when I say there are more important issues to explore in the game.
Oh yeah, there's definitely plenty of more important issues to explore. The good thing though is that they're not exclusive. It's not like there's a limit to the amount of things you can explore, or at least none that I know of? One of the reason I wanted to bring up this thread is that I assumed that while gender is still important to people in the transhuman future of Eclipse Phase (and sexuality too), the norms and views are very different. Unfortunately we are quite often stuck with our current world-view when imagining things or creating NPCs as GMs or whatever so it's easy to miss out on actually showing how uncaring most people are about these things. While I am not one of those, to many people when you say "the doctor (not The Doctor) enters the room" they'll picture a white male. This means that unless you describe someone as being a woman, of a specific skin colour (which you know, could be blue) they will see whatever fits the current-day expectations. So unless you actually see people that switch sex or identifies with a gender opposite their morph sex or is bisexual or whatever and have people being totally ok with that, most people will just assume everyone is cis-gendered (there's that word again), heterosexual and with a skin colour representative of their name. Maybe you won't, but many will. And so you miss out on actually [i]showing[/i] the world that really couldn't care less for these things. Hrm, I think I said that twice now, forgive me I am tired. Also, since those are issues in our world today, if you can bring them up and show how completely okay society is with it that means you might actually encourage some players to become less bigoted and more open about these things. While it may not make for the most interesting thing you can explore in the game, it [i]is[/i] possible you'll make the world a better place! Anyway, 'nuff said about that. This is roleplaying so to each his own really! It's hardly the focus of my games but I do like to shake my players preconceptions now and then.
OneTrikPony wrote:
Ok, I guess I just have to breake down and ask; What is "cis" and "IS"?
You got it explained well enough? There are many parts in a person's gender identity / sex and sexuality and while many people try to make them binary they certainly don't have to be. I mean, technically you can be a male genderfluid heterosexual that is romantically attracted to men and has a feminine gender presentation. It's not the most common combination but it happens.
OneTrikPony wrote:
I am concerned with gender identity and maintenance of sexual health for those sleeved in synthetic or infomorphs. While I see gender *roles* in my society as largely limiting or even toxic, I suspect that gender identity is important and will continue to be in the future. I accept the limitations and certainly enjoy the benefeits of being physicaly and emotionaly male. The corolary is true for the females that I know. I think most people would feel a lack when sleeving a synth with no way to sexually communcate who they are and no way to act on or act out on attraction. I would also be disatisfied in an infomorph. I'm certain of this but I can't precicely articulate why. The potential to minutely adjust ones own image, environment, virtual interactive form, emotional emulation response etc. can be assumed when the mind realy is just software. In that case I immagine the totality of one's experience to be completely masturbatory and ultimately nihilistic.
I think the experience is typically worse in a synth than for an infomorph actually. I've always assumed that in a synthetic shell you just don't feel truly like a human. No matter how good your cyberbrain might be, I think most people [i]feel[/i] their metal in some way. Since I assume people still think of themselves in terms of gender, I have a feeling that gender [i]presentation[/i] will be far more important to people in synths. Even if you could have robotic shells that outline male or female body types, I think people will want to really throw it in your face so to speak. There might even be a whole somewhat separate subculture within the clanking masses that adhere very strongly to things like colour coding and behavioral/speech patterns to showcase their gender. Due to the "cold" or neutral nature of what I assume the synthmorph experience to be, people will feel equal amounts of gender dysmorphia in whichever shell they're in and so I think it's quite likely they'll try to overcompensate. As far as sexuality goes, I think a cyberbrain can simulate it but with much more control than in a biomorph. So it might be something people have to "turn on" if they want to... get turned on... and otherwise they won't feel that physical "pull" in their stomach that you get when you're attracted to someone on a physical level. Romantic feelings is something else entirely, I quite assume people will feel those regardless of morph. However, sex drive isn't the only (perhaps even not the most common) reason why people seek out sexual encounters. There's the simple feeling of intimacy and closeness, but also to temporarily feel better due to a general lack of confidence or for validation reasons. These pyschological reasons won't go away in a synth so it's quite possible they'll seek out those encounters. Perhaps not feeling as full-filled doing it as in a biomorph (due to the lack of sense of true humanity). I do assume a synthmorph can have areas that while pressed would give sensations not unlike being stimulated on erogenous zones for a biomorph. Then there's also the possibility of having your synth equipped with some smartmaterial dildo and take pride in your everlasting stamina and ability to pleasure women for hours to no end. Even if you don't quite get the same satisfaction yourself. Infomorphs I believe have it somewhat easier. They're much further removed from the biomorphs and don't even have a tangible body. I actually do think that's easier as I see it kind of like with uncanny valley. A synthmorph is [i]almost[/i] human but not really, so people will feel as though they [i]should[/i] feel human, but don't. For a infomorph that is so far removed it will probably be easier to accept the situation. Since gender presentation is both easier to choose and change as an infomorph (changing avatar is easy and "faking" a gender is also easier) so I don't think they'll be nearly as concerned with it as the clanking masses. Probably the least concerned people in the EP world even, and the ones most likely to experiment with assuming the opposite gender (to their normal identification) in a simulspace where nobody knows them just to feel what it's like. With easier access to simulspace I think it's even easier for infomorphs to fill the psychological need for sex (even if they don't have a physical one) and many informoprhs probably start to simply see their high-end totally-fooling-you simulspace for reality. Escapism is human nature and I think infomorphs excel at that. When you have no actual physical parts to pull you into reality I believe it is much easier to distance yourself from it. So yeah, I do think the infomorph state in many ways is easier than the synthetic life.
Lorsa is a Forum moderator [color=red]Red text is for moderator stuff[/color]
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
If the cyberbrain is able to
If the cyberbrain is able to model all of the ego data copied on to it in the same ways as the biobrain, I imagine that some form of modelling of common brainstates will come part and parcel with that. I'm not saying it'd work in a way that feels 100% the right way (although maybe people who never gave that much introspective time to exploring their desires might not even notice the difference), but I think that (especially for RP opportunities) I like the idea that just as an AGI could sleeve into a biobrain and feel overwhelmed by the hormonal flux they don't normally have to deal with in a synthmorph and then sleeve back into a synth and have memories of that flustered newness, so too could someone who was an uplift or transhuman sleeve into a synthmorph and have the cyberbrain recall what it was to desire with all those fluctuations. I think it's cool to allow for a diversity within that though: if one player wants to RP someone who feels tortured and trapped by the dulling of "real biological existence" when their ego is hosted on a cyberbrain, I'm all for it! Similarly, I like the idea of someone of the same base bio origin in the same party turning to them and being like, "What are you talking about, I can trigger orgasmic states sleeved in my Savant with these sweet narcoalgorithms and they are [b]even better[/b] than bio!"
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Quick comments r' us.
consumerdestroyer wrote:
Emasculate? [b]MORE LIKE HYPERMASCULATE[/b]
This is relevant.
Googleshng wrote:
If you are the manliest manly man who ever manned, you resleeve into a female morph, and you crit your alienation test, then officially, by the rules as written, you immediately abandon that old self-image, all the macho mental baggage hang-ups that went with it, and [b]so[/b] fully make peace with the fact that you are now a woman and how that's totally cool that you stop stressing out about other things that have been bringing you down.
I can't see this. I mean, having your gender reassigned in a Vat doesn't require you to make alienation tests, not does having extra limbs grafted on. On the other hand, resleeving into a new morph which is the twin of the one you were in does entail alienation. The ego quite simply doesn't give a flying fruitloop what gender the morph is, or even if it has one, unless you're talking about specific exceptions such as the fury.
Lorsa wrote:
However, gender will most likely still be important to people.
Again, why? Physically, all it takes to change is a couple of days in a tank of goo. The only real "gender" that matters is emotional, and what does that even mean? Where you fall on a scale rating how important social ques are to your emotional wellbeing? It's easy to say it's "how you view the world", but that's completely subjective. I can say I see the world as a male, but that just means that I expect other males to see the world the same way as I do.
Lorsa wrote:
What is a compelling character? Personally I find them compelling because they break the norm of today. But then again I find lots of characters compelling.
As an aside, I personally enjoy characters which express some kind of apparent contradiction or duality, and how it's reconciled.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

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