Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Anarchists and restrictions

48 posts / 0 new
Last post
savanah savanah's picture
Anarchists and restrictions
I'm having a few problems trying to wrap my head around a few problems with the anarchist ideology and how it works. My first question is about freedom of information, as I understand fabers are open and blueprints are completely free in any anarchist hab, so what happens if someone simply decides to mass produce anthrax and pump it to the hab? Second, the resources are all divided in the community, but what happens if say, the guy responsible by the waste system don't have enough rep to acquire what he needs to keep the system running?
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
To your first question:
To your first question: a) The AIs monitoring the fabbers notice anthrax is being produced and notify the neighbors, who come along to ask what this person is doing. This is usually the case. No restrictions but also no privacy. Especially not when accessing the fabbers. b) In a particularly security-lax hab, the hab is filled with anthrax and anyone in a biomorph without medichines or toxin filters dies. Then the rest of the hab chucks the bodies in healing vats and within a week or so they're all better. And then they probably tighten security on the fabbers. These are the lucky ones, because... c) The, let's call him terrorist because he's pumping anthrax into a hab, gets smart and decides to print out a nuke on a hab with no fabber monitors. Those habs...aren't around anymore.
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
Undocking Undocking's picture
savanah wrote:
savanah wrote:
My first question is about freedom of information, as I understand fabers are open and blueprints are completely free in any anarchist hab, so what happens if someone simply decides to mass produce anthrax and pump it to the hab?
While it is true that blueprints on an anarachist hab are 'free', not every habitat is going to have blueprints for nukes, anthrax or similar blueprints on hand. Blueprints are extrememly hard to make for a single person because they require programmers and specialists from numerous fields to create something a little complex. The anarchist hab fabbers are completely transperant, as mentioned above, and everyone would know. If the fabber was hacked and the transperancy subverted, then your anthrax printer would be labelled as a terrorist.
savanah wrote:
Second, the resources are all divided in the community, but what happens if say, the guy responsible by the waste system don't have enough rep to acquire what he needs to keep the system running?
The hab would make sure that the system had enough resources to keep running. Basic things like life support (waste management), hydroponics and system repair would be given what they needed for keeping the habitat functional. Also, waste management is basically responsible for reclaiming resources. You have a lot of carbon, nitrogen and organic components present.
templariomaster templariomaster's picture
The true question to ask here
The true question to ask here is. What would stop me from making a grey matter bomb? AIs? Those are normal nanobots, people? good try they cant be hacked because they dont have no radios, other nanobots? Not If have more than you(and a grey bomb would solve that fast and easily).
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Undocking wrote:Blueprints
Undocking wrote:
Blueprints are extrememly hard to make for a single person because they require programmers and specialists from numerous fields to create something a little complex.
As somebody who's had to try and make blueprints for conventional manufacturing, this a thousand times over. Making stuff is hard, even when the tools are quite simple. And different tools have different capabilities and restrictions. Lathes only make round parts, mills cannot produce sealed voids, 3D printers cannot produce steep overhangs... I imagine nanofabrication would have that problem, but even more so.
Undocking wrote:
savanah wrote:
Second, the resources are all divided in the community, but what happens if say, the guy responsible by the waste system don't have enough rep to acquire what he needs to keep the system running?
The hab would make sure that the system had enough resources to keep running. Basic things like life support (waste management), hydroponics and system repair would be given what they needed for keeping the habitat functional.
Actually, this is part of the concept for my first EP character, although he runs the engines of a mobile hab (and is massively in debt and under appreciated because of it. And radioactive). Undocking, you say that 'the hab' would make sure he's supplied, but that goes right into Tragedy of the Commons territory. Nobody wants to make the sacrifice to keep the hab running, and since one person holding back wouldn't have any effect [i]everybody[/i] ends up holding back. The hab is not one monolithic organism, it's a group of people who explicitly don't answer to anybody. It's actually one of the things that makes me go "hmmm...." about the setting. Autonomy sounds great until you hit the little details. My answer to the main question: Firewall. Firewall is against the spreading of threats to transhumanity, and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction is explicitly a part of that. So why are there no open source nuke projects, or no really good ones? Because firewall will kill the people involved, or delete all their work, or something. Firewall is the secret police.
Hoarseman Hoarseman's picture
2 Responses
The rep system helps counter free riding, your radioactive guy "should" have a sky high Rep and be able to requisition/make anything he needs, unless this Hab has some really, really weird prioritizations loaded into it. Such Habs are likely to fail because of... Ease of movement would also change the Habs habits. Your radioactive character could relatively easily move to a hab that appreciates him more via farcasting, unless he is held there by unstated reasons. The Fall plus some nearly Darwinian selection in the post-fall environment means that habs filled with morons tend to either collapse or dissipate as a cloud of debris.
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Hoarseman wrote:The rep
Hoarseman wrote:
The rep system helps counter free riding, your radioactive guy "should" have a sky high Rep and be able to requisition/make anything he needs, unless this Hab has some really, really weird prioritizations loaded into it. Such Habs are likely to fail because of...
Yes and no. He's not terribly social, and literally radioactive. People don't like hanging around him that much, even if he's not overly hazardous if you've got basic biomods. Nothing I've read about the rep economy says that such people end up with high rep. He contributes, after a fashion - but nobody cares much about the engines, as they're very disconnected from the day-to-day of the hab. Also, the engines blew up once. But that wasn't his fault. :P People keep talking like the hab itself can assign rep. If the hab has somebody sleeved into it I guess it could, but no more than anybody else. Or am I missing something? My understanding of reputation economies is that it's a collective assessment of your value to the group. The trouble with that is that people are terrible at actually assessing who's contributing.
Hoarseman wrote:
Ease of movement would also change the Habs habits. Your radioactive character could relatively easily move to a hab that appreciates him more via farcasting, unless he is held there by unstated reasons. The Fall plus some nearly Darwinian selection in the post-fall environment means that habs filled with morons tend to either collapse or dissipate as a cloud of debris.
Yeah, he sticks around out of choice, mostly to tend to his engines. But this is my point - I feel like any anarchist hab by its nature is teetering on the edge of collapse, and is only held up by people who are willing to beg, borrow and steal what they need to keep their part of the system running. They do it out of pure passion for the work, and they are not necessarily rewarded in proportion to that. templariomaster, there are a few things that might stop grey goo. One is, as I said earlier, Firewall. They do _not_ like grey goo, and if you make it they will kill you and probably all of your backups. It would also be very hard to make, so probably not the work of one person. In point of fact, it would probably be easier just to build a big bomb or nuke.Then there are guardian nanoswarms all over the place. All they do all day long is destroy other nanos. And lastly, all nanos are vulnerable to plasma. The swarm might start up, but eventually people with flamethrowers are going to come in and clean up the big patches while their guardians scour away anything left. And of course, if all those measures fail the hab just dissolves, Firewall has a new mystery, and over the course of a few weeks the nanos all degrade. Just another day in the world of Eclipse Phase.
Undocking Undocking's picture
MAD Crab wrote:
MAD Crab wrote:
As somebody who's had to try and make blueprints for conventional manufacturing, this a thousand times over. Making stuff is hard, even when the tools are quite simple.
My initial attempts of joining maker culture and programming for a 3D printer were the most stressful months of my life. Making a goddamn replica of a 28mm miniature for a game was a lot harder than it looked.
MAD Crab wrote:
Actually, this is part of the concept for my first EP character, although he runs the engines of a mobile hab (and is massively in debt and under appreciated because of it. And radioactive). Undocking, you say that 'the hab' would make sure he's supplied, but that goes right into Tragedy of the Commons territory. Nobody wants to make the sacrifice to keep the hab running, and since one person holding back wouldn't have any effect [i]everybody[/i] ends up holding back.
What Halden points out in his paper is that unregulated commons favours free riders—selfish egos—over altruistic egos. Looking at the issue from an anarcho-collectivist lens, the Tragedy of Commons is opposed to the philosophy of "to each according to his/her need". Even the anarcho-transhumansits (Blue Anarchists) use a similar credo: "From each according to their imagination, to each according to their need." EP points out in Rimward that certain types of anarchy are not for everyone. Anarchist habitats (collectivist, blue, individualist) would not last very long if nobody siphoned resources off to the life support system to make repairs. Those basic functions are needs. Limited resources outside of basic functions would be scheduled for use or petitioned with @-rep. Running and maintaining the engines is one thing, but upgrading them and attaching on new fiddly bits that take up extra resources would be another.
MAD Crab wrote:
The hab is not one monolithic organism, it's a group of people who explicitly don't answer to anybody.
That is more anarcho-individualist, like scum swarms or certain types of extropian/an-cap.
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
I haven't actually read
I haven't actually read rimward yet, so I may be missing some details. And I have to admit that I'm not entirely brushed up on all the variates of anarchism. I guess my issue with any of the anarchist habs is what I feel is a disconnect between the flat organization and philosophy, and the discussion of stuff like needs and how people -actually- act. How do you siphon off resources for needs? Who decides what the needs are? The guy running the mining operation physically has control of resources, so doesn't he have an uneven say in what goes where?
Undocking Undocking's picture
MAD Crab wrote:I haven't
MAD Crab wrote:
I haven't actually read rimward yet, so I may be missing some details. And I have to admit that I'm not entirely brushed up on all the variates of anarchism.
Definitely read the anarchism section of the AA chapter. It examines what I'm outlining in more detail. Eclipse Phase assumes that the 'base' anarchy expressed is somewhere in the anachro-collectivism/anarcho-syndicalism/anarcho-communism/anarcho-socialist vein. So when the board refers to 'the hab' in a monolithic sort of way, it is because the anarchists on the habitat are a collective with similar ideals and goals for the society in a philosophic sense that is expressed in their actions. An anarchist habitat will have a couple hundred people who enjoy and believe in collectivism and altruism. Forced riders can leave, providing another habitat accepts them, and free riders are driven off.
MAD Crab wrote:
I guess my issue with any of the anarchist habs is what I feel is a disconnect between the flat organization and philosophy, and the discussion of stuff like needs and how people -actually- act. How do you siphon off resources for needs? Who decides what the needs are? The guy running the mining operation physically has control of resources, so doesn't he have an uneven say in what goes where?
All anarchists make heavy use of ANI and robots. ANI and robots handle all the menial tasks that most people wouldn't want to do (like washing the floors). If an ego actually volunteers to do that, then it is because the ego wants to. More vital functions that require an ego for operation are either 'chores' with an ANI scheduling the shifts, which can be traded or given away to egos with proper credentials, or volunteers. Generally, robots under control of an ANI would do the mining. If an ego volunteers to run the mining, they are not doing it for selfish reasons, but for the benefit of the habitat. Resources are split based on the requirements for the habitat's function by an ANI. Extra resource consumption beyond what is needed are then scheduled by an ANI and sorted by a mix of Rep, urgency, and desire. Your character's engines on a collectivist habitat would have enough resources for fuel required for the necessary corrections and for repairs to keep the engines operational. If your character desires additional resources for enhancing performance, then he would sign up through the ANI for the schedule to use the specific resources. If he wanted the resources now, his Rep could help get them sooner. If the engines needed critical repairs or extra fuel for emergency corrections, then the urgency factor would kick in. Regarding how people act, those who collectivism does not work for have other options: more individualist anarchists like Extropians/An-cappers and scum, or starting their own habitat.
MAD Crab wrote:
Yes and no. He's not terribly social, and literally radioactive. People don't like hanging around him that much, even if he's not overly hazardous if you've got basic biomods. Nothing I've read about the rep economy says that such people end up with high rep. He contributes, after a fashion - but nobody cares much about the engines, as they're very disconnected from the day-to-day of the hab. People keep talking like the hab itself can assign rep. If the hab has somebody sleeved into it I guess it could, but no more than anybody else. Or am I missing something? My understanding of reputation economies is that it's a collective assessment of your value to the group. The trouble with that is that people are terrible at actually assessing who's contributing.
That is an actual draw-back of the Rep system: those who are not socially involved will suffer from lower Rep. Keeping your head down and not tweeting how the engines are doing in a public feed, providing a narrated XP stream of your engine work, or telling people about your work for the hab will keep your character on the lower level of the Rep economy. Sure, whenever the habitat needs to make a maneuver, the community would be very concerned about the engines and grateful enough that your character has been working them to give a bunch of +1's—but without being involved on the local social networks he will fall through the cracks.
DrewDavis DrewDavis's picture
I should add to Undocking's
I should add to Undocking's post that the character's muse is quite likely to update the local mesh about engine status and the character's daily chores even if the character is feeling anti-social. Even if the character doesn't want the muse to make updates it may still "accidentally" update the mesh, just to keep the character's rep from plummeting. Muses can be annoyingly protective of their charges like that. I'd love to see that character in a campaign. Severely anti-social but in love with engines and mechanical engineering. The only reason the rest of the hab is even aware he is on board is because his Muse misbehaves and draws attention to him "for your own good." Savanah: Necessities for survival are typically considered rights in Anarchist space. The person(s) maintaining the waste disposal robots should be able to get the necessary materials to perform that work without worrying about REP. Simply because society agrees sepsis is a problem. Our hypothetical low REP waste management specialist will run into problems when he needs something out of the ordinary: like weapons to help him on that top secret mission firewall just assigned him. On the other hand if that person is high rep the weapons may not bring much notice, assuming those weapons are not a threat to the physical integrity of the hab.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
savanah wrote:I'm having a
savanah wrote:
I'm having a few problems trying to wrap my head around a few problems with the anarchist ideology and how it works. My first question is about freedom of information, as I understand fabers are open and blueprints are completely free in any anarchist hab, so what happens if someone simply decides to mass produce anthrax and pump it to the hab?
Freedom of information goes both ways. Somebody decides that, for whatever reason, he has a [i]burning[/i] desire to manufacture anthrax... Well, anthrax is actually a living organism, you can't make that in a nanofabricator, you'd have to grow it in a genetics lab. Let's assume something similarly nasty, then; VX gas. So, sure, you can manufacture VX in a nanofabricator. It's basically an organic chemical molecule produced in large quantities; quite frankly, the bottle to store it (until you're ready to use it) is probably an order of magnitude more complicated than the blueprint to manufacture the gas. And the moment you do this, everybody and their muse on the station knows you're manufacturing VX gas, because it's a weapon of mass destruction, even though its impact will be severely limited compared to our early-21st-century world. Instantly, you'll get a flood of messages, everything from people asking you if you're all right, to people asking what you plan to use it for, to people telling you that you'd better not be thinking of gassing the habitat, to some asshole with low rep suggesting you go and connect the canister to your own vacsuit's atmospheric ports and liveblog the results. As well as that, the AIs - and, on an anarchist hab, probably AGIs and infolifes - in charge of the atmospheric system decide, unilaterally, to shut down all circulation until the situation is ascertained. Folks can breathe for hours in a non-circulating habitat. Additionally to [i]that[/i], everyone nearby who has a reasonable concern for their own health and safety is either triggering their smart fabric vacsuits to go into vacsuit mode (thus providing an airtight seal,) or heading for a suitlocker if for some reason they weren't wearing a smart vacsuit, and they're probably drawing their weapons. They don't want to just assume you're up to trouble, but if you're manufacturing a WMD, they're reasonably sure that trouble is afoot, and either you're it, or you've become aware of it and have decided, for whatever reason, that nerve gas is the appropriate response. Either way, they want to be well-armed, vac-sealed, and on-hand. Also, even most anarchist habitats aren't utterly stupid. The public fabbers will, by the consensus of the population, almost always have a block on manufacturing WMDs without authorization being granted, presumably by a supermajority of the population. There was one anarchist habitat that the corps tried to take back by force, and after several days of brutal fighting when it seemed the corps were going to win, the whole place went nuclear. So the blueprints for atomic bombs and such are definitely around.
Quote:
Second, the resources are all divided in the community, but what happens if say, the guy responsible by the waste system don't have enough rep to acquire what he needs to keep the system running?
Resources on an anarcho-collectivist habitat aren't just divvied up and then assigned permanently to people based on their reputations. Almost all of it is held in communal resource pools. Habitat needs take priority over everything, and it doesn't matter if the guy taking a zero-g swim in the waste tanks has reputation where he's physically located (in the shitter); if he [i]needs[/i] X, Y and Z to keep the waste recycling systems going, he's going to [i]get[/i] X, Y and Z. To put it in perspective, what you're asking is what happens when the mechanic crawling through the guts of the metropolitan sewer wastewater processing facility is deep in debt and doesn't have the money to buy a new electric motor for the stirring tanks. It doesn't matter, because acquiring the motor isn't his financial responsibility.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
savanah savanah's picture
Thanks all, Indeed I hadn't
Thanks all, Indeed I hadn't thinked about the panopticon, I just assumed that the fabbers wouldn't be monitored at all. (That would be incredible risky o.o) Another question, if someone starts making a nuke on the fabber, would be any kind of "police force" in a anarchist hab or it's just concerned citizens stepping up?
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
"Police Force" smacks of
"Police Force" smacks of hierarchy. On an anarchist habitat, the militia consists of anyone and everyone who takes up arms to deal with a given threat. It's not impossible that some anarchist habitats might recognize the value of hierarchy in a threat situation and have a system set up to suspend horizontal government if a major threat (such as the Ultimates showing up to conquer the station,) appears in favor of a Cincinatus-style dictatorship, especially if they have some really badass old general on the hab or whatever. That would be a self-correcting situation, though, as such a dictator's power would only last as long as those under him were convinced there was an emergency to respond to.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
I second ShadowDragon's point
I second ShadowDragon's point regarding suspending horizontal governance in an emergency, when there is a real and provable advantage to centralized command and control. Very much liquid democracy in action--everyone basically delegates their votes to the One Man for the duration of the crisis, and takes them back when the crisis is ended (or when they feel that the crisis has ended, or that they see an opportunity that needs to be taken advantage of right now)

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

DrewDavis DrewDavis's picture
Canonically some habs do have
Canonically some habs do have full time militia volunteers. There's even an example character in Transhuman who is exactly that. While it's true that the majority of the militia force is only on the job as necessary there is a need for people who understand military and police action on a professional level to act as supervisors in an emergency situation. These people won't have the same kind of powers as a police force, but will be called in as any other emergency responder when there is a problem. There are also "conflict resolution" collectives who act as a sort of marshal service in Anarchist space. Appropriately for a bunch of tree-hugging hippies they're mostly psychologists and social workers, but one in particular - The Black Marshal Brigade - has a contingent of former security professionals from the inner system who assist habs with developing a good security culture. If you haven't read Rimward you really should. There are some great eye-openers in that book.
savanah savanah's picture
Thanks, I'll look into the
Thanks, I'll look into the book, I haven't read much of it yet
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
RPPR and volunteers
On the topic of volunteer militias, I really enjoyed RPPR's Know Evil campaign's example, when on a Scum swarm, a knife-wielding maniac attacks and the civilians near by are fleeing and shouting "will someone volunteer to do something about this?!" on the Mesh. Security seems to be a very ad-hoc sort of thing on Anarchist habitats, like informal deputies and posses and such. Very wild west feeling.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
V_Lhhw V_Lhhw's picture
I generally think of
I generally think of anarchist habs as running on a system of "rule by those who give a shit". In the case of habitat maintenance, I'd expect that every time someone uses a public facility, their Muse effectively gives a hi-5 (or other feedback as appropriate) to the Muse of whoever maintains it.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
V_Lhhw wrote:I generally
V_Lhhw wrote:
I generally think of anarchist habs as running on a system of "rule by those who give a shit". In the case of habitat maintenance, I'd expect that every time someone uses a public facility, their Muse effectively gives a hi-5 (or other feedback as appropriate) to the Muse of whoever maintains it.
This too, is the truth. It mentions in the books that most people empower their muses to automatically +bump or -ding people they interact with automatically. After all, the muse has lived with you forever, for the most part, and it has access to your mind and biomonitors, so your muse knows how you're feeling at any given point. So, f'rinstance, when you need to visit waste extraction and everything is sparkly clean and pleasant, and the equipment operates efficiently, your muse automatically sends a +bump to the ego(s) who've taken on the responsibility of overseeing the public works droids that keep the lavatory clean, and the egoes who keep the sewerage system clean. On the other hand, if what you experience is the [i]exact opposite[/i] of a successful toilet flush, the guy maintaining the sewerage system is probably getting a -ding, assuming you don't feel the need to (a) write a scathing, personal review, or (b) take a gun down there to lodge your complaint ballisticly.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
NoEther NoEther's picture
All the anarchists I know
All the anarchists I know believe in self-defense. In the case of sabotage I would think (1) there aren't that many people who would actually kill everyone they knew if they had the chance. And (2) anyone who realized what was happening would feel free to stop it, in the name of either personal or collective self-defense. I wouldn't be surprised if a vigilante murders the saboteur. Someone may also have taken it upon themselves to install security safeguards on the maker, so that there is an alert when something dangerous is fabricated. In the case of the essential laborer, if the tool exists within the collective then I think most folks would hand it over and I wouldn't require a networking test, or I would give a large bonus. Even for a straight roll the most they could be at is -40 if they want something amazingly rare and have 0 rep, and and adult anarchist should have >40 Anarchist networking, so they still have a chance. Worst case something breaks down, people get upset and yell at the guy doing maintenance and someone more reliable steps in. Managing the waste system should probably provide a pretty steady rep income. I also wouldn't assume that every anarchist habitat survives, or is very functional. If you have a mix of would-be mass-murders and folks too lazy or cruel to maintain an okay reputation then you're going to have a pretty terrible habitat.
obsidian razor obsidian razor's picture
As mentioned by many, the way
As mentioned by many, the way the anarchist work in the setting is kinda weird for anyone with a classical mindset about population and government. After reading Rimward, I noticed several kinks on the system, but in general it feels sounds, probably like something that would work in real life provided the tech used in EP existed. It did leave me with certain doubts that I don't think are addressed. For example, what happens with a community actively ostracizes someone but that person is too valuable to let them leave? Let's say that the mentioned engine techie is a wonderful tech and keeps everything running smooth, even in spite of the damage this has caused to his morph. According to Rimward, this guy should be a rep goldmine, as he's providing a vital community service and at a fantastic level of competence. However, let's say this guy is a grade A d*ckface. Obnoxious, grating, actively antagonistic and just not pleasant to have around. Hell, he might not even be an anarchist, just some dude that ended up with them cause of the fall, and he much rather be in Mars, making big bucks and living in a big condo with a trophy wife (or husband, or both, equal opportunity future and all that). Now obviously, you could say he could move, but what if the community doesn't want him to move? What if he's the only engineer they have with knowledge on how to fix those engines? With the fall as background, this is perfectly reasonable. A bunch of refugees board a ship, leave for the outer rim running away from earth and they decide to go anarch. However, none of them lived in space before and while they quickly adapt, no one can keep the ship moving if this guy leaves. I can see then the community pretty much enslaving him in all by name. Keeping his rep down but at the same time blocking him from egocasting out or just moving to another nearby hab. They could even say he doesn't have enough rep to use the communal egocaster. I imagine other anarchs would not be thrilled to find about this, and maybe some place big like Locus would intervene by forming a posse or something, but this is perfectly reasonable. The other issue I haven't seen covered about anarchs is about organizations and institutions. It is mentioned in Rimward that there are several anarch-organized institutions. In effect, they work exactly like any other organization, it's just that they are more ad-hoc and all their workers are volunteers. I can see, for example, larger habs creating a militia or police force made entirely of volunteers, who get a constant influx of rep from their co-workers and others benefiting from their work. The problem with this is that you can then have politics between organization. In my Locus game, I've basically come up with the idea that there's several militias, engineering corps, logistic companies, etc... that are basically made up entirely of volunteers. Some are very flat, but others are, by necessity, hierarchical. The militia has ranks, though probably less than a proper military. This opens the floodgates for this orgs to apply their "weight" when deciding hab policy or even giving out rep. If you wanna dock with Locus and set up base there, the militia can tell you to piss off and go somewhere else, and if you say that they don't have the authority to stop them, the militia can say that they have taken a security concern on you and if you don't like it you can taste their seekers and plasma cannons. Obviously this could start an outcry among the inhabitants of the hab, but who risks pissing off the guys with all the guns? Sure, you could form an alternative militia, but then the two could butt heads over certain issues and even end up on civil war. There's probably checks and balances that you could establish to stop this from happening, but it's still a damm good question. Overall, I still like the AA the most from all the factions in EP, but I do see why many people have accused them of being overly utopic.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
I think the anarchist
I think the anarchist militias don't take over the habs for the same reason armies in stable democracies don't take over. It's not that they can't, it's that they won't - their ranks just aren't filled with sort of people who wants to betray and violently oppress their fellow man. I doesn't strike me as any more utopic than the existence of any other non-dictatorship.
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Regarding flaws in EP
Regarding flaws in EP anarchism. I would like to point out that, in setting, the rules and laws for such forms of government is still under development. They haven't figured out everything yet (much like how things are now). Problems are to be expected. Many habs have different rules and experiments. In fact, they make opportunities for stories. It might be interesting to show players that some people do suffer under anarchism, and that some might be willing to go to great lengths to escape.
Undocking Undocking's picture
obsidian razor wrote:As
obsidian razor wrote:
As mentioned by many, the way the anarchist work in the setting is kinda weird for anyone with a classical mindset about population and government. After reading Rimward, I noticed several kinks on the system, but in general it feels sounds, probably like something that would work in real life provided the tech used in EP existed.
It is a difficult idea to understand, from personal experience, when major Earth societies are hierarchies. Corporations, families, religions, government, military and academia are all organized into hierarchy; our physical and social needs, data storage, stars, and even colours are placed into hierarchies. When we evolved, for some reason, our simian ancestors survived better in a hierarchical structure. What I see EP (and media like it) to suggest is that humanity can overcome such tendencies to experiment with different societal forms. Hierarchy worked during our evolution on Earth, but will it lend itself well outside of that blue marble?
obsidian razor wrote:
Now obviously, you could say he could move, but what if the community doesn't want him to move? What if he's the only engineer they have with knowledge on how to fix those engines? et cetera
Different groups and socieites would handle that in different ways. Since blue-anarchs are anti-slavery and anti-oppression, that behaviour may be balked upon by nearby anarchists, who then embark to save the trapped ego. What if they are not blue anarchs? Then someone who has a problem with oppression in the rim would do something about it, like the scum or an anti-slavery racket, or maybe a Jovian killteam rolls in and saves the ego who wants to leave. Maybe the habitat forces him to be autistic (no comms) and keeps him there as a slave to the engines for the greater good. However, I would propose that not everyone in the community would be completely fine with keeping the ego there as a forced-rider.
obsidian razor wrote:
The other issue I haven't seen covered about anarchs is about organizations and institutions. It is mentioned in Rimward that there are several anarch-organized institutions. In effect, they work exactly like any other organization, it's just that they are more ad-hoc and all their workers are volunteers. I can see, for example, larger habs creating a militia or police force made entirely of volunteers, who get a constant influx of rep from their co-workers and others benefiting from their work. The problem with this is that you can then have politics between organization.
Anarchist organizations would probably use adhocracy or a structural foundation of holarchy (or heterarchy). Authorities on a subject from experience or knowledge would be important to such organizations and the merit of their background could illicit an informal hierarchy within the heterarchcal or adhocal structure—but I'd argue that this does not compromise the anarchist ideology. There are going to be egos (or other groups) who are more interested or experienced in certain areas, and deferring to them for knowledge or an opinion is rational before a group decision is voted on. Between organizations, all organizations (or neighbourhoods, on Locus) are equal—just as there are no masters between egos. Politics between organizations is not necessarily a problem, just as politics between egos is not inherently a problem. The problem would be when an organization claims (formally or informally) a position of dominance in a new hierarchy. But as Smokeskin mentioned, many countries today are not military juntas or dictatorships. There is nothing, in particular, stopping the Canadian military establishing a junta, but the military doesn't for any number of reasons. It would be fair to determine that an anarchist milita would not succumb to the lust for power and overturn the status quo—especially on Locus, which is a beacon of the anarchist cause. However, I could see it happen over time on a habitat, but the milita junta could be a decent place to live.
obsidian razor wrote:
Overall, I still like the AA the most from all the factions in EP, but I do see why many people have accused them of being overly utopic.
The AA is viewed as utopic in a similar way to how the PC is viewed as dystopic. The PC has indenturement and a slew of other 'negative' qualities that are mentioned—and are noted to be horrible at times. Not until Sunward (which didn't do enough in this category) and Transhuman was it stated that most indenture contracts are okay and pretty good deals. A fair indenture contract could be really beneficial to the corp and the servant. With the AA, Rimward opened up the alliance and introduced factors of conflict; ideas like Rep-Gaming, informal hierarchies, and inner-system tourists messing up the alliance. There are even these super wierd places in the Rim where there are slave morphs, stange cults deep in the clouds, and radical anarcho-terrorists among other things.
DrewDavis DrewDavis's picture
I love these great questions.
I love these great questions.
obsidian razor wrote:
It did leave me with certain doubts that I don't think are addressed. For example, what happens with a community actively ostracizes someone but that person is too valuable to let them leave? Let's say that the mentioned engine techie is a wonderful tech and keeps everything running smooth, even in spite of the damage this has caused to his morph. According to Rimward, this guy should be a rep goldmine, as he's providing a vital community service and at a fantastic level of competence. However, let's say this guy is a grade A d*ckface. Obnoxious, grating, actively antagonistic and just not pleasant to have around. Hell, he might not even be an anarchist, just some dude that ended up with them cause of the fall, and he much rather be in Mars, making big bucks and living in a big condo with a trophy wife (or husband, or both, equal opportunity future and all that). Now obviously, you could say he could move, but what if the community doesn't want him to move? What if he's the only engineer they have with knowledge on how to fix those engines? With the fall as background, this is perfectly reasonable. A bunch of refugees board a ship, leave for the outer rim running away from earth and they decide to go anarch. However, none of them lived in space before and while they quickly adapt, no one can keep the ship moving if this guy leaves. I can see then the community pretty much enslaving him in all by name. Keeping his rep down but at the same time blocking him from egocasting out or just moving to another nearby hab. They could even say he doesn't have enough rep to use the communal egocaster. I imagine other anarchs would not be thrilled to find about this, and maybe some place big like Locus would intervene by forming a posse or something, but this is perfectly reasonable.
This is what those "conflict resolution" collectives I mentioned above are for. There's a reason they're mostly social workers and psychologists: so situations like the one you mentioned can be worked out in a way that benefits all parties, not through force. Those collectives are not 100% effective, of course, but can work out a lot of those situations. The situations they can't work out are scenarios best inflicted on your players. Said engineer manages to escape the hab when the players need them to move the hab in a hurry. What now?
obsidian razor wrote:
The other issue I haven't seen covered about anarchs is about organizations and institutions. It is mentioned in Rimward that there are several anarch-organized institutions. In effect, they work exactly like any other organization, it's just that they are more ad-hoc and all their workers are volunteers. I can see, for example, larger habs creating a militia or police force made entirely of volunteers, who get a constant influx of rep from their co-workers and others benefiting from their work. The problem with this is that you can then have politics between organization.
Yep. Most Anarchists would argue this is a good thing as it keeps these institutions from becoming stagnant. The end effect is similar to competition in capitalist regions. Boundaries are tested, new ideas are created, society progresses. Not to mention constant politicking keeps people watching these organizations for signs they are becoming authoritarian.
obsidian razor wrote:
In my Locus game, I've basically come up with the idea that there's several militias, engineering corps, logistic companies, etc... that are basically made up entirely of volunteers. Some are very flat, but others are, by necessity, hierarchical. The militia has ranks, though probably less than a proper military. This opens the floodgates for this orgs to apply their "weight" when deciding hab policy or even giving out rep. If you wanna dock with Locus and set up base there, the militia can tell you to piss off and go somewhere else, and if you say that they don't have the authority to stop them, the militia can say that they have taken a security concern on you and if you don't like it you can taste their seekers and plasma cannons. Obviously this could start an outcry among the inhabitants of the hab, but who risks pissing off the guys with all the guns? Sure, you could form an alternative militia, but then the two could butt heads over certain issues and even end up on civil war. There's probably checks and balances that you could establish to stop this from happening, but it's still a damm good question. Overall, I still like the AA the most from all the factions in EP, but I do see why many people have accused them of being overly utopic.
A similar situation to the one you describe is already happening at Small Majestics hab in the Twelve Commons neighborhood near Saturn. A civil conflict between rival nano-artist collectives is threatening to boil over into a full scale civil war using nanoswarms as weapons. Conflict resolution has failed, but neither side is willing to just up and move. But yeah, everything you've listed is a good idea for developing conflict in outer system games. Its good to remember the conflict is below the surface in the outer system. Less Section 9 and more I.S.I.S. Oh man. Now I really want to run a Special Outreach campaign inspired by Archer.
omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis's picture
Good topic, interesting
Good topic, interesting reading. I've also had questions about the stability and operation of widespread anarchist communities, but I want to point out a couple of things that haven't been mentioned. First, anarchist or community collectives aren't anything new, or sci-fi. Depending on how strict your definition is, you could argue that it's closer to a traditional tribal organization than modern power structures. Also, there are many anarchist or neo-anachist collectives that currently exist around the world, for example, Israeli kibbutzim. Though some have privatized in recent years, their operation and philosophy have historically been similar to AA groups. Also, Agile methodology has taken the corporate world by storm (though, of course, a lot of it is lip service). The whole Agile concept boils down to a belief that reducing hierarchical management results in higher quality products, and faster production. One other thing I'd like to say is that if you've ever had any experience with community or volunteer organizations, or even with large projects among friends (camping or big events, weddings, parties, burning man, whatever), you'll see how people can effectively organize without hierarchical leadership. Many people gravitate into spots that fit their skills and group needs. For the dirty work that nobody wants to volunteer for, you can generally talk about it and work something out in a "many hands make light work" fashion. My theory is that in these situations, ~30% of the people do the majority of the work, but I don't think this is much different than in corporate environments, where it's not difficult to find people playing solitaire, chatting with friends, and otherwise actively avoiding work all day. There are actually areas of academic study that have attempted to map out different types of optimal organization for different types of work. For example, collegial/democratic organization works best for things like surgery and R&D, or situations where the majority of participants are highly skilled. Hierarchy is considered best for managing a large number of unskilled workers. Entrepreneurial systems (management with leeway for worker discretion) are best for organizations that have identifiable superstars (NBA, NFL, high-end sales teams, etc.). Of course, the above is just the half-remembered "for dummies" version, but I wanted to point out that alternatives to hierarchical systems are well-known in academia, corporations, and grassroots organizations. It's just that there isn't mainstream mindshare or media attention around the subject.
consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture
omphaloskepsis wrote
omphaloskepsis wrote:
Hierarchy is considered best for managing a large number of unskilled workers. Entrepreneurial systems (management with leeway for worker discretion) are best for organizations that have identifiable superstars (NBA, NFL, high-end sales teams, etc.). Of course, the above is just the half-remembered "for dummies" version, but I wanted to point out that alternatives to hierarchical systems are well-known in academia, corporations, and grassroots organizations. It's just that there isn't mainstream mindshare or media attention around the subject.
It bears mentioning that in another real-life anarchist situation, Anarchist Catalonia in the late 1930s, the way they dealt with unskilled workers (and even with skilled workers) was to essentially have constant educational workshops, both hands-on/practical and sit-down collaborative discussions. As just one example, the way the anarcho-syndicalist trade unions were organized you had the creation of tools and machines for agriculture being handled from below separately from the steel workers, who were handled from below separately from mining and resource extraction, who were handled from below separately from processing the ores into steel for the steel workers, who were handled from below separately from unions of educators and academics. So each workplace would, if necessary, elect from among their ranks a temporary representative to do various things (i.e. a time-sensitive thing like supervising a massive co-ordinated project between a mine, a refinery, the steel workers and tool makers to get stuff out to the agricultural sector), but they'd go back to being regular workers afterwards. So, one thing that occurred was that anarchist academics wanted to spread knowledge for free outside of the Ivory Tower. So one thing that was done was that people in all the above-mentioned sectors elected reps from their workplaces to go to regional conferences where an academic would come and teach them the actual science of the process they were doing as industries in tandem with each other every day. These reps would get to ask questions and basically get a chemistry/physics/geoscience class for free, then go back to their fellow workers and disseminate the information, and if there were any questions, they'd get that rep (or a new one in some cases) to go to a follow-up conference with questions from their co-workers. Franco crushed these programs in their infancy because people in those industries had to get working overtime to get steel to the steel workers and arms manufacturers so they could get more guns to fight back against fascists, but you get the idea of how a bunch of unskilled labourers (or, again, in this case skilled labourers) don't even need a manager or managerial system (and certainly not a dedicated management team). You elect from among yourselves, and in a real anarchist economy/polity, you've got all industries working together to better themselves and each other without worrying about profit. Free university educations on topics that are specifically relevant to the individual lives of everyone on a hab would be even [b]easier[/b] to implement with the wireless mesh/data storage of Eclipse Phase. Even in this century, I've worked plenty of white collar jobs where my co-workers knew better than my managers how to run our section to the best satisfaction of our clients/customers, and I've worked plenty more outside of the white collar world where that was doubly true.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
The problem is freedom.
I feel it's most illuminating when comparing the anarchists and PC to consider what happens when things go wrong. In the PC, when a hab goes bad, you get corruption, rioting, oppression, widespread murder or maybe even revolution. If an anarchist hab goes bad, you get a face full of alien wing-wong. Sure, there are mechanisms in place to prevent problems, as with the PC, but they can still fail. A benign example can be found on Titan, in Aarhus, where a student released venomous marmosets. Sure, they're harmless, but they could so easily have been something worse (See previous Wing-Wong). Maybe someone decides to slice up their pet cat with some exoplanet-sourced proteins, or dump some cloned flatworms from [Insert ice-moon which I can't remember the name of here] into the water supply for giggles. I mean what's the harm? The filters'll catch them before they do any real damage anyway... and then 3 weeks later every inhabitant has transformed into an oozing cocoon, which splits open releasing millions of freshly spawned worms. Iirc, in the commentary for locus, an anarchist mentions casually that his neighbor has a mini-singularity generator. All nice and safe, until a mini-meteorite shreds the controls and the hab vanishes in a burst of heavy radiation.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
The whole concept of handling
The whole concept of handling risk is one of the major problems in anarchism. The anarchistic principles have a very hard time handling oppressing everyone to prevent the few from doing harm. Democracies might have a constitutional issue with such things, but other than that at if it is the will of the people to ban nukes, bombs, guns, virulent disease manufacture or whatever, and/or force licenses and safeguard procedures on the use of such things, and/or use surveillance to make sure no one is breaking the law, that is within their right. I would expect that anarchists would at some point have to be practical about it. These people aren't necessarily fanatics. Like democracies have constitutions that limit what the people can decide democratically, anarchists could also in some cases disregard their anarchistic principles to avoid something that is obviously wrong or too risky. In that sense, I think that the problems anarchists face with this are unlikely to be the big ones like WMDs, but more everyday stuff. Like the EP equivalent of people racing down the street way too fast in their tricked-out car, and lack of gun control leading to problems as seen in the US.
DrewDavis DrewDavis's picture
Remember that Anarchism as a
Remember that Anarchism as a political ideal refers to no rulers, not no rules. There are standards that come with being a part of an anarchist society and even mechanisms for enforcing those rules. In EP your individual racing their tricked out car is going to face a significant rep hit if their racing interferes with other members of the hab, and an even worse hit if they cause an accident and or kill someone. The collective is also fully capable of taking their tricked out car away should they continue to be a problem. Most anarchists are reluctant to go that far - and of course standards vary from habitat to habitat - but it's not free wheeling chaos.
BonSequitur BonSequitur's picture
I'm pretty sure you can't
I'm pretty sure you can't just push the "nuke" button on a CM and get a suitcase nuke, unless someone has made the amazingly poor decision to hook up the community CM to a source of high-grade plutonium. I don't recall where but I'm pretty sure it's stated that anything made of exotic materials (Such as radioactives and, depending on the hab, precious or rare-earth metals) isn't just available out of the public fabricators. Ultimately, most anarchist habs are small, and on larger habs like Locus, everyone is slotted into collectives that replicate that small community system. Everyone knows everybody, except times fifty thanks to muses, rep systems, and spimes. And of course, practically everyone on anarchist habs is an anarchist - anyone who doesn't adapt to that system for whatever reason can egocast out, probably to Extropia or Titan; or, most likely, they never bothered to egocast in. Anarchism in the EP universe exists under seriously favorable conditions: Post-scarcity nanofabrication tech and AI automation makes for a world where providing for everyone's survival and comfort is practically automatic; the panopticon of spimes means that everyone's behaviour is completely transparent; muses and rep systems expand the person's natural capacity for social calculus; and almost everyone participating in the system is ideologically predisposed for it and wants it to work. So [i]of course[/i] it does, at least some of the time.
Hell is other people's forks.
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
BonSequitur wrote:I don't
BonSequitur wrote:
I don't recall where but I'm pretty sure it's stated that anything made of exotic materials (Such as radioactives and, depending on the hab, precious or rare-earth metals) isn't just available out of the public fabricators.
You might have have read it in the Transhuman book. It has a section starting on nanofabrication on p. 174 .
BonSequitur BonSequitur's picture
Transhuman page 175:
[i]Transhuman[/i] page 175:
Quote:
Fissionables can be as difficult to acquire as antimatter, but the favor required to get a hearing may vary from Level 3 to Level 5, depending on the size of the polity from which fissionables are requested. Well-connected Guanxi networkers (using multiple Level 4 or 5 favors with –10 to –30 modifiers on Networking Tests) may find a seller, but black market trade in fissionables also risks drawing attention from organizations like Firewall and Oversight.
So, you can't expect CMs to be hooked up to any feedstock more exotic than base metals, for the most part. Another thing is that the public fabricator in a small autonomist hab might not be a true cornucopia machine but rather a more limited fabber, which is probably enough for most daily needs but cheaper and more rugged, not to mention safer, with real CMs being in the hands of collectives that use them for specific purposes. So in many habs you can't just walk up and order a dose of weaponised smallpox with a side of anthrax; the public fabber just isn't capable or designed to fabricate large viruses. The real danger would be fabrication of simple chemical agents - chlorine, which has numerous legitimate uses but is also an extremely poisonous gas, comes to mind. The other concern is dangerous things being smuggled into a hab rather than just manufactured on-site - Locus doesn't have a formal customs office to make sure nobody is boarding the station carrying a suitcase nuke, for example.
Hell is other people's forks.
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
BonSequitur wrote:
BonSequitur wrote:
So, you can't expect CMs to be hooked up to any feedstock more exotic than base metals, for the most part.
In fact, yes: Feedstock are like nowadays "batteries", you might be thinking more in the line of "no nanofabricator publicly accesible has direct access to any radioactive materials". So you could feed them the fissionables as a side charge, but their "cable" plug won't have access to it.
BonSequitur wrote:
Another thing is that the public fabricator in a small autonomist hab might not be a true cornucopia machine but rather a more limited fabber, which is probably enough for most daily needs but cheaper and more rugged, not to mention safer, with real CMs being in the hands of collectives that use them for specific purposes. So in many habs you can't just walk up and order a dose of weaponised smallpox with a side of anthrax; the public fabber just isn't capable or designed to fabricate large viruses. The real danger would be fabrication of simple chemical agents - chlorine, which has numerous legitimate uses but is also an extremely poisonous gas, comes to mind. The other concern is dangerous things being smuggled into a hab rather than just manufactured on-site - Locus doesn't have a formal customs office to make sure nobody is boarding the station carrying a suitcase nuke, for example.
The problem with this comes again to the sousvillance. There are two ways to detect antimatter: its emisions, or the container for the antimatter. The same can be said for anything that emits radiation: you can look for the radiation, or the kind of containers / technology that masks it. Eventually, of course, a point can be reached where it can be smuggled, but there is a certain detail about nukes that I find quite logical after I read about it in the Honor Harrington novels. Please, if there is a physicist or any knowledgeable person here who can confirm or refute this, do it. In the vacuum nukes are almos useless as weapons. Any explosive device suffers from the same problem: it requires a medium to transmit the area of effect. Sure, inside an habitat a nuke can be devastating... until you reach a point where the system dislodges itslef due to the forces being released, and only the debris do something. About the radiation, space has it in spades, so a nuke won't be all that dangerous (unless you are really close). This means that planting a nuke in the outer hull of an habitat is not the most efficient method to break it, btw. And Locus is quite distributed, a single nuke wouldn't be able to wipe it in one go. You would do more damage with a highly accelerated, small piece of dense material very hard to detect... Personally, I fear more the bioweapons and the dissassemblers than nukes. The latter are a universal threat, and the former, considering how people prefer biomorphs, are quite the real threat. Oh, of course planetary targets (with atmosphere, like Mars) are fair game for nuking, and it is easier to smuggle almost anything there to boot!
BonSequitur BonSequitur's picture
Even if a bioweapon wipes out
Even if a bioweapon wipes out the biological population of a hab, the stacks can still be popped by the local synth population (As well as whatever exotic pods and biomorphs are somehow immune to the bioweapon) and translife goes on. It would still be disastrous and extremely distressing to the population of the hab, but they wouldn't be gone or anything.
Hell is other people's forks.
NoEther NoEther's picture
Xagroth wrote:
Xagroth wrote:
The problem with this comes again to the sousvillance. There are two ways to detect antimatter: its emisions, or the container for the antimatter. The same can be said for anything that emits radiation: you can look for the radiation, or the kind of containers / technology that masks it. Eventually, of course, a point can be reached where it can be smuggled, but there is a certain detail about nukes that I find quite logical after I read about it in the Honor Harrington novels. Please, if there is a physicist or any knowledgeable person here who can confirm or refute this, do it. In the vacuum nukes are almos useless as weapons. Any explosive device suffers from the same problem: it requires a medium to transmit the area of effect. Sure, inside an habitat a nuke can be devastating... until you reach a point where the system dislodges itslef due to the forces being released, and only the debris do something. About the radiation, space has it in spades, so a nuke won't be all that dangerous (unless you are really close). This means that planting a nuke in the outer hull of an habitat is not the most efficient method to break it, btw. And Locus is quite distributed, a single nuke wouldn't be able to wipe it in one go. You would do more damage with a highly accelerated, small piece of dense material very hard to detect...
I largely disagree. Antimatter won't emit anything, it has to be perfectly contained or it will explode. Both an anti-matter and a nuclear explosion release huge amounts of radiation that will do damage at a distance. Its true that conventional weapons rely on compression waves to do most of their damage, but an anti-matter or nuclear bomb could easily release enough radiation to kill everyone in a habitat and destroy all the electronics (e.g. wipe the cortical stacks). In addition, the explosion will at least send out a wave of plasma (derived from the bomb casing) and it it were detonated in a habitat, then the immediate surroundings of the bomb will be added to that plasma. If there is habitat that isn't converted to plasma, then the force of the plasma wave hitting it is likely to break it up and send that portion of the habitat hurtling at high speed. I don't actually do nuclear munitions research, but I do have a physics BA.
BonSequitur BonSequitur's picture
If you detonate a nuclear
If you detonate a nuclear device right outside a cluster hab's shell... even if all you're doing is flinging the hab across space, you're not actually doing that; you're flinging the point of impact across space, and everything else is dragged along. The entire hab could be torn apart by the shear (And sheer) force of one end of it trying to fly off into space at blinding speed.
Hell is other people's forks.
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
Detonating a nuke on the
Detonating a nuke on the outside of a hab would result in a dead hab. The reason nukes aren't really effective in space is because a) There's no shockwave in vacuum, but also because b) space is REALLY FUCKING BIG. So in space terms, it's pretty hard to aim a nuke to detonate close enough to a target. (I think the effective radius of the explosion is about ~1 km, which is pretty damn tiny if you're trying to aim from any real (By outer space terms) distance) But if you detonate a nuke right next to a hab? The hab's going to get hurt. Shear forces are a part of it but the radiation is a bigger part. At least the hull facing the nuke would be vaporized, the hab would break apart, and the radiation and heat (When the radiation front hits the hab's atmosphere) would fry every biomorph and probably every synth too. If the radiation doesn't kill them, the heat and high pressure probably would. So yeah, nukes are still very deadly in space, assuming you can hit the target. w/r/t antimatter and emissions: Your containment won't be perfect. It doesn't have to be perfect. It has to be good enough to keep significant amounts of the antimatter from leaking all at once, but you're going to get the occasional* high-energy antiparticle which just flies out of your magnetic bottle and hits something. No biggie, but someone with the right equipment might be able to pick up the emitted photons from leakage. *Meaning probably pretty frequently, actually. Very low chance per particle, but you've got a *lot* of particles.
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
BonSequitur BonSequitur's picture
The way you keep antimatter
The way you keep antimatter from coming into contact with matter and ruining your day is with powerful magnetic fields to make it stay put. Any antimatter containment system is going to needs it own beefy poewr source, and since magnetic fields aren't magic, is probably going to be pretty detectable. Unless you have some clever way of disguising the thing (Probably by figuring out some excuse for the magnetic field and power supply) or encase all of it in heavy metals (Thus attracting attention anyway), if you board a hab with an antimatter containment unit, every muse monitoring the spime feed at the airlock is going to go "holy shit someone just lugged live antimatter onto the hab." Really, the biggest threat to autonomist habs is someone 10000km away with a mass driver, but it's not like that doesn't apply to every space habitat, everywhere.
Hell is other people's forks.
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
So in the end, the best way
So in the end, the best way to blow up a habitat is to close enough with an Antimatter-powered ship and detonate the core XD. The bioweapons I was thinking about were more in line with "complete celular apoptosis", which means the biomorphs get reduced to dead cells and goo, thus hindering habitat operations for a long time, which is the same think as killing somebody with a resleeving insurance. And the question is: if you can take out of the equation a variable, without being discovered, for long enough to reach the desired conclusion, what is the difference between permanent removal and temporal removal? In fact, giving enough knowledge of the setting, nuking an habitat would turn a lot of angry organizations against you (including firewall, unless it was firewall the ones who did it), while turning it into a morgue for some time might piss off significantly less people.
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
Nuking* it might actually
Nuking* it might actually piss off [i]fewer[/i] people, because it's easier to cover up as a reactor failure. *Which I am using as a general term for any explosive WMD, whether traditional fission bombs, fusion bombs, or antimatter bombs.
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
BonSequitur BonSequitur's picture
Except not, since space habs
Except not, since space habs are almost invariably running on [i]fusion[/i] reactors that can't experience a catastrophic reactor failure. I can't imagine many people are annihilating antimatter to power their Extrude-a-Noodle machines.
Hell is other people's forks.
Erulastant Erulastant's picture
Given that antimatter isn't
Given that antimatter isn't really a way of generating energy so much as storing it (It takes more energy to create antimatter than you get out of it. It just has high energy density which makes it a good fuel.), I'm pretty sure we can all agree that an antimatter reactor on a hab is usually a pretty stupid idea. I think fusion reactors can still have catastrophic failures (Especially if they're bigger), but they're not going to be as bad as fission reactors. With a fusion reactor, when the mag bottle fails, the reaction stops because there's not enough pressure anymore. BUT, you still have your high-pressure superheated plasma which is rapidly expanding. Which would take a sizable chunk out of any hab.
You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
Tasty, chewey plasma
Fusion reactors are only 'safe' in that you don't get a nuclear bomb. You can most certainly get the equivalent of a steam explosion. Not to mention lots of bits of radioactive reactor wall moving at great speed through the bulkheads of your hab. That said, it wouldn't look much like a nuke going off. Those are... distinctive. @Xagroth Yup, best way to kill a hab is to send an antimatter drive ship and blow it up on their doorstep. Which is why most habs require them to stay the hell away. You could make the ship smaller, maybe get rid of any cargo areas or something... Yeah, most habs have missile defence, too.
BonSequitur BonSequitur's picture
Any hab that isn't some fly
Any hab that isn't some fly-by-night operation would have physical shielding on their fusion cores so that a containment failure would stay contained to the fusion reactor area itself and not take out the hab, presumably. I assume that if you can nanofabricate diamond like it's no big deal, you can build an outer reactor shell that can take a plasma discharge from a failing mag bottle and not crack open like an eggshell, especially considering that it only has to withstand the failure impact once. Sure, a truly catastrophic failure could involve a faulty outer drive hull cracking open when the faulty containment unit inside breaks, but that's the kind of scenario that looks and smells like foul play (Or chronically bad maintenance) anyway. It's like cloud diving: Yes, every layer of security could potentially fail simultaneously, resulting in a tragic mishap. But if that actually happens, you have to assume gross incompetence over a significant period of time, or outright sabotage.
Hell is other people's forks.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Plus, it isn't too hard to
Plus, it isn't too hard to engineer a containment vessel so that IF it fails, it fails in a direction where nothing you're particularly attached to is located, IE, out into empty space, rather than into the rest of your hab. Not that the rest of the hab would be in GREAT shape, with the sudden unplanned acceleration, but they'd be a hell of a lot better off than they would be otherwise.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
BonSequitur BonSequitur's picture
On a cluster hab, it might
On a cluster hab, it might actually be better to set it up so that, in case of failure, the whole module holding the reactor jettisons itself using the plasma discharge as reaction mass to do so. In a beehive hab, I can't imagine the explosion would propagate very far, provided the reactors are placed in out of the way tunnels insulated from living spaces. A reactor failure should be quite survivable.
Hell is other people's forks.