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Shotguns - A Homebrew Weapons Suppliment

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TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Shotguns - A Homebrew Weapons Suppliment
It's been mentioned a few times that a notable omission from EP's armoury are shotguns. Anyway, here's my attempt at shotguns in Eclipse Phase. Please discuss, give feedback, make suggestions, and happy hunting.
Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
I'm confused.
I'm confused. How many dice do I roll for damage when I fire my combat shotgun?

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Depends
Depends on whether you're firing slugs or shot. If you're using, say, pellet shot, you roll the weapon's dice(2) plus the extra from the ammo(6). 2 + 6 = 8 Too complicated?
Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
I guess I'm not getting what
I guess I'm not getting what you're trying to simulate with the multiple dice. I definitely think that shot shells should have low AP because they have low velocity compared to any other weapon in tje game. I'd probably put buckshot at 3 - 4 and bird shot at 0.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Aldrich Aldrich's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:I guess I'm
OneTrikPony wrote:
I guess I'm not getting what you're trying to simulate with the multiple dice. I definitely think that shot shells should have low AP because they have low velocity compared to any other weapon in tje game. I'd probably put buckshot at 3 - 4 and bird shot at 0.
I agree, it looks like modern Type IIA armor (which is relatively light) will stop a slug. Though it might still kill you through blunt force trauma, if your armor doesn't have a rigid plate. I'm also not sure I like the extra dice mechanic. It's a lot of extra rolls, and it seems much too random: real life shotguns disperse, yes, but they do so in a predictable pattern. The way your shotgun is written when using shot, they will be terribad at low skill, and disproportionately good at high skill (the the high skill attacker get more chances to benefit from his high skill). This seems backwards to me. Also, your current approach doesn't take into account the attacker's MoS (or crits). You're trying to simulate the effects of a near miss resulting in only some of the pellets doing damage, right? Why not just have shot ammo do half damage on an attacker MoF of -10 and zero below that?
TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Thanks
Thanks for the comments guys. Regarding the extra dice: What I'm trying to replicate is that, as separate projectiles, shotshell pellets not only have reduced velocity but a harder time penetrating armour simply because they're a bunch of small projectiles rather than a single solid one. It also provides a mechanics-level way to be slightly more effective at damaging swarms - not as effective as a true spray weapon, but noticeably better than regular bullets. Versatility is what I'm going for with the shotgun. The traditional video game niche of wide-area spray weapon is filled, quite admirably, by the shardgun. What I'm trying to go for with shotguns is a flexible weapon that can switch between a couple of different roles on the fly. One of those roles is high-damage low AP, of which there's not a lot in the books; as DV increases AP tends to increase alongside it. The only exception I can think of is the humble laser pulser. That said, you're right that the extra dice mechanic is clunky, and the partial-hit thing as written is lopsided - Aldrich's suggestion is much more elegant regarding the latter, and I think I'll adopt it for now, but I'm wondering whether partial hits are a necessary thing. Shotshells might work just as well, in their role as anti-unarmored and anti-swarm, without it. At any rate I've tweaked the numbers and taken another stab at rewriting the extra dice thing in a less clunky manner. I considered treating it like any other kinetic attack, with a straight DV and AP value, but that doesn't accurately represent the characeristic I'm going for. My baseline for shotshell numbers is something like this: BB shot(birdshot) against a naked Flat should be a big deal. Birdshot against very basic armor (second skin, or smart clothing) should do basically nothing. Pellet shot(buckshot) should be comparable to a couple of 9mm handgun(medium pistol) rounds - that's almost literally what modern-day buckshot is, after all. Against unarmored should be lethal or damn close, against basic protection should do serious damage, while legit armour (light body armour) should all but stop it.
Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.
Decimator Decimator's picture
I don't think there's any
I don't think there's any reason for extra dice. Give buckshot a +10 bonus to hit that stacks with other bonuses, no armor penetration, and good damage. Partial hits are covered by damage variability. Slugs are just big and heavy bullets. You could probably treat the more specialized shells as micromissiles.
TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Decimator wrote:I don't think
Decimator wrote:
I don't think there's any reason for extra dice. Give buckshot a +10 bonus to hit that stacks with other bonuses, no armor penetration, and good damage. Partial hits are covered by damage variability.
Worth a try, and I'm starting to agree on the partial hit thing the more I think about it. Stackable +10 modifier is a good compromise. Rather than the clunky extra dice, perhaps treat shotshells as an area attack for the purpose of damaging swarms to preserve that functionality. AP set to zero certainly, but what should the base damage be?
Quote:
Slugs are just big and heavy bullets. You could probably treat the more specialized shells as micromissiles.
Now that is a very interesting idea. Aren't microgrenades supposed to be about the size of a shotgun shell anyway? Could press a shotgun into a secondary role as a grenade launcher of sorts. I like that.
Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.
Aldrich Aldrich's picture
TheGrue wrote:Quote: Slugs
TheGrue wrote:
Quote:
Slugs are just big and heavy bullets. You could probably treat the more specialized shells as micromissiles.
Now that is a very interesting idea. Aren't microgrenades supposed to be about the size of a shotgun shell anyway? Could press a shotgun into a secondary role as a grenade launcher of sorts. I like that.
Yup. If you look back through some of the previous discussions on the omission of shotguns, you'll find that they arrive at similar conclusions. The micromissile launchers are definitely "supposed" to be the flexible/special munitions delivery system, but you could easily strip the propulsion (and guidance?) out of micromissiles, knock them down a price category, and shoot them out of a shotgun.
TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Ah
Heh. I guess that makes me the newbie who thinks he has a great idea, but is really just reinventing the wheel then. :D
Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
I've been thinking about this
I've been thinking about this myself recently. I came upon the idea of, instead of having too many special rules, simply having a series of low-damage (2d10) weapons which can only fire at full auto, and can't perform suppressing fire, but only need one round to do it. After that, different ammo or explosive rounds can be handled through the standard ammo mods. For flavor, I like the idea that modern shotgun rounds are bundles of metal/carbon rods, with a electrically sensitive connection between them, so each round can be set to spread out, or remain sealed together to form a slug as desired.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Aldrich Aldrich's picture
TheGrue wrote:Heh. I guess
TheGrue wrote:
Heh. I guess that makes me the newbie who thinks he has a great idea, but is really just reinventing the wheel then. :D
Ah naw! I like the continued discussion, and I hadn't seen a detailed set of rules for them yet either. Though someone had written a nifty conversion guide for the Call of Cuthulu weapons (not sure where that went, a search would probably turn it up).
ThatWhichNeverWas wrote:
For flavor, I like the idea that modern shotgun rounds are bundles of metal/carbon rods, with a electrically sensitive connection between them, so each round can be set to spread out, or remain sealed together to form a slug as desired.
I really like this. Totally stealing that one. Side note, I rather like how the advancement of miniaturization has blurred the lines between "shotgun" and "grenade launcher". It keeps the players guessing: does the Martian hillbilly have a barrel full of buckshot, or a theromobaric grenade? Who knows! Couple that with an ammo-selector modification and you've got some sweet tactical flexibility.
TheGrue TheGrue's picture
Update
Updated this a bit. I sort of borrowed ThatWhichNeverWas' idea about multi-mode spread ammo, but in a way that makes more sense to me. A shotshell has to stay more or less in one piece as it travels the length of the barrel, otherwise the pellets start rebounding off the inside and kill the muzzle velocity. Modern shotguns have a concave wad at the back that helps accomplish this, but that mechanism doesn't really work with EP's caseless ammunition - it also imposes an upper limit on rate of fire, as firing too fast risks the next round hitting the wad of the previous one as it exits the barrel. I think the idea I came up with more or less works. Took out birdshot, as it doesn't really differentiate itself much from the larger "buck" shot. And, pellets are a spray weapon now. I crunched some numbers and did some thinking, and I think my earlier concern - that making pellets a spray weapon encroaches too much on the shredder's combat role - is unwarranted. In addition to different AP/DV characteristics, I tweaked the combat shotgun a bit to give pellets a different range profile than the shredder. I think they're different enough that neither is necessarily better than the other. Added a seeker round option, inspired by Rastus' assorted houserules. Essentially he had the same idea that I did regarding smoothbore weapons as multi-role munitions delivery, but he went with seekers instead of grenades. As Aldrich pointed out there's no reason you couldn't do both, fluffing the latter as having a larger payload instead of propulsion and guidance systems. So grenade shells are now equivalent to standard grenades(with some physical modification), and seekers are equivalent to single-shot micromissiles. The previous grenade shells are now specifically minigrenade shells, which aren't limited to SA fire. It also occurred to me that, seeker weapons using magnetic coils as a launch system anyway, there's no reason you couldn't use seeker shells with a rail-shotgun, and that you wouldn't need a sabot or propellant to do so (unlike gas-propelled firearms). Still, the firing characteristics of kinetic weapons means they have shorter range increments than a "standard" micromissile, although this is less an issue with a rail-shotgun because it can achieve a higher muzzle velocity before the seeker's scramjet kicks in. No sabot, and thus no risk of barrel obstruction, means rail-shotgun seekers can do semi-auto fire as well. Anyway, they both use different weapons skills. Players and GMs intending to use these rules, remember you can default to a related skill(in this case Kinetic Weapons) at -30 if your shotgun-carrying Sentinel has poor Spray/Seeker ratings. Finally, grapple shot. Something which is, I think, unique in Eclipse Phase. Of course being unique means I had to write it from whole-cloth(borrowing some language from the Subdual rules on grappling), so it may need balancing.
Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.
Decimator Decimator's picture
Aldrich wrote:Side note, I
Aldrich wrote:
Side note, I rather like how the advancement of miniaturization has blurred the lines between "shotgun" and "grenade launcher".
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=p4ebtj1jR7c#t=2... tense is accurate.[/url]
puke puke's picture
This thread has some ideas to
This thread has some ideas to toy with: http://eclipsephase.com/shotgun-weapons
TheGrue TheGrue's picture
With thanks to Rastus
With thanks to Rastus, I borrowed his idea for flechette shot and adjustable shotgun rifling - including the latter as an aftermarket weapon mod. Might do the same with the dragon's breath ammo, as well as any other unique/bizzare smoothbore ordinance I can think of. I tweaked some of the damage values for speciality ammo as well. Also fixed a typo; pellet shot had "AP doubled" which in my mind meant "double the target's armour" - but actually means "double the weapon's AP". Which is fine for the grapple slug as it's doing a similar thing to Plastic ammo(where I got the idea), but not at all what I was going for - not to mention, even the way I wanted to use it wouldn't be at all compatible with Plastic pellets. So instead, I just statted up the regular pellet variants as seperate ammo types, for the same reason I wrote down the rail shotgun stats rather than just saying "lol work it out youself".
Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal.