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On Religion in the Transhumanist Future

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Thu, 2010-02-25 15:49
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
nick012000 wrote:
You keep saying that Islam is more likely to embrace technology than other Abrahamic faiths, but that simply isn't true of modern Islam. It would have been true of Medieval Islam, but then [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali]Al-Ghazali[/url] went and fucked it all up by popularizing the idea that since God has seen the future, we can't change it and we have no real free will so nothing we do really matters. "If God wills it" is a common benefaction in the Middle East. There's a reason that the modern scientific age arose in Europe, and not the Middle East.
Umm... huh? Are we talking about the same Al-Ghazali that promoted the idea that study in biology and psychology were integral to understanding god? The same Al-Ghazali who believed that research required demonstration to prove things true, integral to the modern scientific method? I mean yeah, he did believe that there was no such thing as free will, and that the future is unchangable... but guess what? So do a lot of faiths! Proponents of generative philosophy don't believe that free will exists either, and they claim science can prove it. Hell, Christianity has its own apocalypse written up, foretelling exactly what will happen in the future. "God's Will" is not a concept unique to Islam either, and I think it a bit disingenuous for you to claim otherwise. As for the modern scientific age, it has little to do with culture, and mostly to do with location. The largest population of the Muslim faith at the time was centered in the Middle East, which has up until fairly recently (to be specific, until the discovery of combustible engines and the Middle East's massive oil reserves) been a barren and resource-depleted location. This lack of resources has kept the region relatively poor, while European nations prospered and advanced. Scoff if you want, but do note that the Islamic faith never went through a Dark Age. Moreover, you have a Muslim to thank for the foundations of the scientific method which propelled Europe into an age of reason. If it weren't for the works of Alhazen (as well as a bit of philosophy from the previously mentioned Al-Ghazali), who knows where Europe would have been by then?
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Thu, 2010-02-25 15:59
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
nick012000 wrote:
You keep saying that Islam is more likely to embrace technology than other Abrahamic faiths, but that simply isn't true of modern Islam. It would have been true of Medieval Islam, but then [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali]Al-Ghazali[/url] went and fucked it all up by popularizing the idea that since God has seen the future, we can't change it and we have no real free will so nothing we do really matters. "If God wills it" is a common benefaction in the Middle East. There's a reason that the modern scientific age arose in Europe, and not the Middle East.
Tell that to countries like the UAE, Jordan, Egypt, and Bahrain. All of these countries (the UAE being the biggest example in my mind) have freely adopted modern technology and use it to the fullest extent they can. Not to judge, but I think people need to be more open minded before they start making asinine comments like "Islam is not a peaceful religion". The religion itself (and a good portion of those that practice it) isn't violent, uneducated, and full of liers. It has it's nutcases like all religions (don't get me started on people like Pat Robertson) and Islam is no exception. I just don't think you should label all Muslims with the same brush as Saddam, Osama, or the rest of Al-Qaeda.
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Thu, 2010-02-25 16:13
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
TBRMInsanity wrote:
Tell that to countries like the UAE, Jordan, Egypt, and Bahrain. All of these countries (the UAE being the biggest example in my mind) have freely adopted modern technology and use it to the fullest extent they can. Not to judge, but I think people need to be more open minded before they start making asinine comments like "Islam is not a peaceful religion". The religion itself (and a good portion of those that practice it) isn't violent, uneducated, and full of liers. It has it's nutcases like all religions (don't get me started on people like Pat Robertson) and Islam is no exception. I just don't think you should label all Muslims with the same brush as Saddam, Osama, or the rest of Al-Qaeda.
Exactly. Thank you. I find it funny when people make these gross generalizations, and then get angry when the same is done to them. I may not be Muslim, but at least I know it's unfair to comment on them from an outside perspective as if they are barbarians. It's childish.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Thu, 2010-02-25 16:31
benji benji's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
I don't really see a strong argument for saying that either Christianity or Islam are more likely to embrace innovation. Historically, both faiths have gone through periods of conservative and liberal approaches when it comes to new thoughts and new ideas. Today, we see some Muslims who openly embrace science and technology, and some who would rather go back a few centuries. We see the same with Christians. I suspect the authors chose Islam to be the new top-dog when it came to religion because it lends itself well to feeling like we're in a different era of history, but not too far removed. Right now, Christianity is the most populous religion, while Islam is 2nd. Saying that Islam is now first, while much of what was centralized about Christianity has been destroyed gives the impression of change and lessens the impulse to say "well, it's like now, but with spaceships." It indicates that there has been a real cultural shift. That said, I don't buy the idea that Christianity would be in all that much trouble. It would be in crisis, but every institution should be in crisis, so that isn't really news. I agree that it's decentralized nature (especially in some Protestant sects) makes it adaptable, both because it makes it likely that someone with some authority survived, and because it likely means that there are a diversity of theological positions on things like resleeving.
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Thu, 2010-02-25 17:14
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Quote:
page 83 Pre fall religions, last part. Overall, followers of the pre-Fall religions mostly populate small habitats isolated from transhumanity through both physical and philosophical distances.
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[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/tc_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/exh_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/argo_userbar.jpg[/img] [i]"To find fault is easy; to do better may be difficult."[/i] Plutarch
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Thu, 2010-02-25 19:44
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
TBRMInsanity wrote:
nick012000 wrote:
You keep saying that Islam is more likely to embrace technology than other Abrahamic faiths, but that simply isn't true of modern Islam. It would have been true of Medieval Islam, but then [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali]Al-Ghazali[/url] went and fucked it all up by popularizing the idea that since God has seen the future, we can't change it and we have no real free will so nothing we do really matters. "If God wills it" is a common benefaction in the Middle East. There's a reason that the modern scientific age arose in Europe, and not the Middle East.
Tell that to countries like the UAE, Jordan, Egypt, and Bahrain. All of these countries (the UAE being the biggest example in my mind) have freely adopted modern technology and use it to the fullest extent they can.
Yes, they adopt technologies [i]the West[/i] invented, and when they skimp on maintenance? "It will work, if God wills it." Then they hire [i]Western[/i] engineers to fix their shit once it breaks.
Quote:
Not to judge, but I think people need to be more open minded before they start making asinine comments like "Islam is not a peaceful religion". The religion itself (and a good portion of those that practice it) isn't violent, uneducated, and full of liers. It has it's nutcases like all religions (don't get me started on people like Pat Robertson) and Islam is no exception. I just don't think you should label all Muslims with the same brush as Saddam, Osama, or the rest of Al-Qaeda.
The religion itself demands its followers wage war on anyone who isn't ruled by Muslims. If they feel bad about it, it demands that they indoctrinate themselves until they lose their consciences and then begin waging war again. If they can't win a war, they have to lie in wait for their enemies to weaken, and then strike and overthrow them in favor of Muslim rule. The thing you have to understand is that the Quran is very literally the Word of God in a way the Bible isn't, and there's a verse telling them that later verses overwrite earlier verses if they contradict. Guess what? All the violent verses come after the peaceful verses chronologically. Sure, the vast majority of Muslims might be all right people, but that just means that they're either following the command to wait for us to weaken so they can seize power, or they're not following their religion properly. There's no real way to tell between the two, so you just have to assume they're the former and not the latter or you're going to be fucked if they turn out to be the former and you thought they were the latter, and now you're either dead or a second-class citizen being oppressed in an Islamic theocracy.
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Thu, 2010-02-25 23:54
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
benji wrote:
I don't really see a strong argument for saying that either Christianity or Islam are more likely to embrace innovation. Historically, both faiths have gone through periods of conservative and liberal approaches when it comes to new thoughts and new ideas. Today, we see some Muslims who openly embrace science and technology, and some who would rather go back a few centuries. We see the same with Christians. I suspect the authors chose Islam to be the new top-dog when it came to religion because it lends itself well to feeling like we're in a different era of history, but not too far removed. Right now, Christianity is the most populous religion, while Islam is 2nd. Saying that Islam is now first, while much of what was centralized about Christianity has been destroyed gives the impression of change and lessens the impulse to say "well, it's like now, but with spaceships." It indicates that there has been a real cultural shift. That said, I don't buy the idea that Christianity would be in all that much trouble. It would be in crisis, but every institution should be in crisis, so that isn't really news. I agree that it's decentralized nature (especially in some Protestant sects) makes it adaptable, both because it makes it likely that someone with some authority survived, and because it likely means that there are a diversity of theological positions on things like resleeving.
Actually, Islam has never shown a period of technological conservativism. Social conservativism to be sure (the Sunni faith in particular rejects the concept of democracy as being anathema to the theocratic structure that they feel Allah wanted), but never technological. We are talking about the same medieval culture that brought the human race water purification, extracted ethanol, Aqua Regia, petrol, oil wells, kerosene, ventilators, glass from quartz and silica, prefabricated homes, hair dyes, solid lipstick, soap bars, colleges, public libraries, hospitals, pharmacies, and far more things that have modern usefulness, if not being a ubiquitous technology of the modern day. That said, no one claimed that Christianity is necessarily in any more or less risk than Islam is in the modern day. Bioconservatives get along fine in Eclipse Phase's universe, and I'd imagine that the majority of conservative Christianity exists amongst them, especially in the Jovian Republic. The real topic was about why Islam might have escaped the Fall relatively better, and I gave a pretty fair answer... their willingness to adapt technology likely gave them the means to get off of the planet via a much quicker means (such as egocasting), while more bioconservative religious groups had to make do with ship travel, which often ended in destruction by killer satellites. While a good portion of Christianity is decentralized, quite a large portion of it (the Church of England, Catholic Church and Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in particular) is very centralized... the destruction of their capitals likely to take quite a toll on their structure.
nick012000 wrote:
Yes, they adopt technologies [i]the West[/i] invented, and when they skimp on maintenance? "It will work, if God wills it." Then they hire [i]Western[/i] engineers to fix their shit once it breaks.
Congratulations for completely ignoring the total lack of resources that the Middle Eastern nations have, pushing the blame for their inability to advance technology quickly solely on their culture. Besides, if you want to talk about who is using who's technology, see the list above of the many things that Islam has brought to the world... just in the medieval period alone. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_the_Muslim_world]There's a whole damn Wikipedia page dedicated to their numerous technological achievements in that time period.[/url] The next time you fill your car with gas, remember that the fuel you're pumping was actually first manufactured in the 8th century by Muslims, from the first oil wells, THEN ask yourself who is using who's technology. Lastly, perhaps you should do some history research before you jump to conclusions on why they have made so few technological advances in recent years. Trends dictate that research and development prosper when an economy prospers... and if there's one thing that's true about most Middle Eastern nations, it's that their economies haven't prospered in a very long time (no, oil has done nothing to change that; since most oil fields are controlled by plutocratic entities, the nation's economy continues to suffer despite a very very small wealthy few becoming rich).
nick012000 wrote:
The religion itself demands its followers wage war on anyone who isn't ruled by Muslims. If they feel bad about it, it demands that they indoctrinate themselves until they lose their consciences and then begin waging war again. If they can't win a war, they have to lie in wait for their enemies to weaken, and then strike and overthrow them in favor of Muslim rule. The thing you have to understand is that the Quran is very literally the Word of God in a way the Bible isn't, and there's a verse telling them that later verses overwrite earlier verses if they contradict. Guess what? All the violent verses come after the peaceful verses chronologically. Sure, the vast majority of Muslims might be all right people, but that just means that they're either following the command to wait for us to weaken so they can seize power, or they're not following their religion properly. There's no real way to tell between the two, so you just have to assume they're the former and not the latter or you're going to be fucked if they turn out to be the former and you thought they were the latter, and now you're either dead or a second-class citizen being oppressed in an Islamic theocracy.
Have you not read Leviticus, or are you just ignoring it for the sake of making other faiths sound better? Historically, Christianity and Judaism have just as sordid and militaristic a history as the Islamic faith has. Christianity has long believed that all people who do not worship Jesus are ruled by Satan, and that they are all destined to die in a great war between them and us, while they are led by Jesus (pretty much the whole point behind Revelation). Any who don't believe that they are going to wage war with non-believers is apparently, in your opinion, "not following their religion properly". Don't be so crass.
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Fri, 2010-02-26 06:32
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Decivre wrote:
nick012000 wrote:
Yes, they adopt technologies [i]the West[/i] invented, and when they skimp on maintenance? "It will work, if God wills it." Then they hire [i]Western[/i] engineers to fix their shit once it breaks.
Congratulations for completely ignoring the total lack of resources that the Middle Eastern nations have, pushing the blame for their inability to advance technology quickly solely on their culture. Besides, if you want to talk about who is using who's technology, see the list above of the many things that Islam has brought to the world... just in the medieval period alone. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_the_Muslim_world]There's a whole damn Wikipedia page dedicated to their numerous technological achievements in that time period.[/url] The next time you fill your car with gas, remember that the fuel you're pumping was actually first manufactured in the 8th century by Muslims, from the first oil wells, THEN ask yourself who is using who's technology.
They don't lack resources now, but I dare you to name a single city in the Middle East that's a hotspot of technological innovation.
Quote:
Lastly, perhaps you should do some history research before you jump to conclusions on why they have made so few technological advances in recent years. Trends dictate that research and development prosper when an economy prospers... and if there's one thing that's true about most Middle Eastern nations, it's that their economies haven't prospered in a very long time (no, oil has done nothing to change that; since most oil fields are controlled by plutocratic entities, the nation's economy continues to suffer despite a very very small wealthy few becoming rich).
And guess why that's the case? It's because they don't put their full effort into it because they don't believe in proper free will! If nothing you do really matters, there's no incentive to put your full effort into anything!
Quote:
nick012000 wrote:
The religion itself demands its followers wage war on anyone who isn't ruled by Muslims. If they feel bad about it, it demands that they indoctrinate themselves until they lose their consciences and then begin waging war again. If they can't win a war, they have to lie in wait for their enemies to weaken, and then strike and overthrow them in favor of Muslim rule. The thing you have to understand is that the Quran is very literally the Word of God in a way the Bible isn't, and there's a verse telling them that later verses overwrite earlier verses if they contradict. Guess what? All the violent verses come after the peaceful verses chronologically. Sure, the vast majority of Muslims might be all right people, but that just means that they're either following the command to wait for us to weaken so they can seize power, or they're not following their religion properly. There's no real way to tell between the two, so you just have to assume they're the former and not the latter or you're going to be fucked if they turn out to be the former and you thought they were the latter, and now you're either dead or a second-class citizen being oppressed in an Islamic theocracy.
Have you not read Leviticus, or are you just ignoring it for the sake of making other faiths sound better? Historically, Christianity and Judaism have just as sordid and militaristic a history as the Islamic faith has. Christianity has long believed that all people who do not worship Jesus are ruled by Satan, and that they are all destined to die in a great war between them and us, while they are led by Jesus (pretty much the whole point behind Revelation). Any who don't believe that they are going to wage war with non-believers is apparently, in your opinion, "not following their religion properly". Don't be so crass.
The vast majority of Leviticus was rendered obsolete by the New Covenant Jesus made during the Last Supper and when he died on the Cross. It simply doesn't apply anymore. In any case, it's one book of the Bible. [i]The entirety of the Quran is like that[/i]. The entire thing is God giving direct commandments to his followers. In the Bible, much of the morals and commands are laid out indirectly in parables and stories; in the Quran, it's God directly laying out His will in short, concise sentences. And God's will, as laid out in the Quran, is that Muslims must do their utmost to conquer the world. Any Muslim who fails to do so isn't a proper Muslim. Christians might have a militaristic history, but at no point does he flatly tell them that they must conquer the world. Christians have a militaristic history because we're human and we're flawed, and, in the case of the Crusades, because the Muslims attacked us first. Islam, on the other hand, is an existential threat to free, Western society.
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Fri, 2010-02-26 09:23
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Decivre wrote:
nick012000 wrote:
Yes, they adopt technologies [i]the West[/i] invented, and when they skimp on maintenance? "It will work, if God wills it." Then they hire [i]Western[/i] engineers to fix their shit once it breaks.
Congratulations for completely ignoring the total lack of resources that the Middle Eastern nations have, pushing the blame for their inability to advance technology quickly solely on their culture. Besides, if you want to talk about who is using who's technology, see the list above of the many things that Islam has brought to the world... just in the medieval period alone. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_the_Muslim_world]There's a whole damn Wikipedia page dedicated to their numerous technological achievements in that time period.[/url] The next time you fill your car with gas, remember that the fuel you're pumping was actually first manufactured in the 8th century by Muslims, from the first oil wells, THEN ask yourself who is using who's technology.
[B]"History is written by the victors."[/B] "Books" from Library of Alexandria was allegedly used by the Muslims for bathhouse warming (this is dismissed as false, Its proposed that the Muslim made the false claim, them-selfs for propaganda reasons) http://www.nybooks.com/articles/3517 Muslim inventions was the result of translating the knowledge &"spoils" from the conquered "heathen" intellectual culture centers. Sure Islamic scholars furthered the intellectual development & continued the research - But thats because they were boosted by the translations. Translated "heathen" innovators & intellectuals was likely robbed of their credit. The Idea of Distillation of oil from wells was known to both the Babylonians and the ancient Greeks. There is a conjecture that the word "naphtha" is from the Hindu god Apam Napat. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gLQnmxGjpjIC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=%22a... Academy of Gundishapur 489-832 The intellectual center of the Sassanid empire. It offered training in medicine, philosophy, theology and science. They translated various works on medicine, astronomy, philosophy, and useful crafts. Indian and Chinese scholars visitors translated Indian texts on astronomy, astrology, mathematics and medicine and Chinese texts on herbal medicine and religion. The Sassanid dynasty fell to Muslim Arab armies in 638 AD. The academy survived the change of rulers and persisted for several centuries as a Muslim institute of higher learning. It was later rivaled by "The House of Wisdom" at Bagdad" as the intellectual center shifted. This is when the Islamic Golden age is said to have started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom [B]End of the Islamic Golden era[/B] Siege of Baghdad (1258) All libraries of Baghdad, containing countless precious historical documents and books on subjects ranging from medicine to astronomy, was destroyed. Survivors said that the waters of the Tigris ran black with ink from the enormous quantities of books flung into the river and red from the blood of the scientists and philosophers killed. Mongol invasion and the destruction of the libraries of Bagdad marks the main cause of the end of For the Islamic golden Era. Now who is using who's technology? The Victors are using the Technology and claiming the credit of its innovation.
nick012000 wrote:
They don't lack resources now, but I dare you to name a single city in the Middle East that's a hotspot of technological innovation.
Tel Aviv (rank 8 ) http://www.silicon.com/legacy/research/specialreports/techhotspots/ Alexandria (Egypt) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_Alexandrina Dubai http://www.technewsworld.com/story/50611.html
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[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/tc_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/exh_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/argo_userbar.jpg[/img] [i]"To find fault is easy; to do better may be difficult."[/i] Plutarch
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Fri, 2010-02-26 09:18
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
King Shere wrote:
*snip* Now who is using who's technology? The Victors are using the Technology and claiming the credit of its innovation.
Yes, that's why Saudi Arabia has an Air Force of F-16s, and the Jihadis use AKs and RPGs.
Quote:
nick012000 wrote:
They don't lack resources now, but I dare you to name a single city in the Middle East that's a hotspot of technological innovation.
Tel Aviv (rank 8) http://www.silicon.com/legacy/research/specialreports/techhotspots/
That's in Israel; they don't count since they're a Western country. A relatively shitty Western country compared to most Western countries, but still lightyears beyond their neighbors.
Quote:
Alexandria (Egypt) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_Alexandrina
Yes. Because a fancy-pants library is the equal of Silicon Valley.
Quote:
Dubai http://www.technewsworld.com/story/50611.html
They import all their engineers from the West; they don't really count.
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Fri, 2010-02-26 10:03
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Quote:
Yes, that's why Saudi Arabia has an Air Force of F-16s, and the Jihadis use AKs and RPGs.
Weapons based on the Technology researched by the some Germans on a loosing side in a great war.
Quote:
That's in Israel; they don't count since they're a Western country. A relatively shitty Western country compared to most Western countries, but still lightyears beyond their neighbors.
The dare didn't specify only Islamic places. ^^ Tel Aviv was in the Middle east & certainly is a hot spot in more ways than one. But ok
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[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/tc_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/exh_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/argo_userbar.jpg[/img] [i]"To find fault is easy; to do better may be difficult."[/i] Plutarch
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Fri, 2010-02-26 11:00
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
nick012000 wrote:
They don't lack resources now, but I dare you to name a single city in the Middle East that's a hotspot of technological innovation.
Dubai. Easiest... challenge... ever.
nick012000 wrote:
The vast majority of Leviticus was rendered obsolete by the New Covenant Jesus made during the Last Supper and when he died on the Cross. It simply doesn't apply anymore. In any case, it's one book of the Bible. [i]The entirety of the Quran is like that[/i]. The entire thing is God giving direct commandments to his followers. In the Bible, much of the morals and commands are laid out indirectly in parables and stories; in the Quran, it's God directly laying out His will in short, concise sentences. And God's will, as laid out in the Quran, is that Muslims must do their utmost to conquer the world. Any Muslim who fails to do so isn't a proper Muslim. Christians might have a militaristic history, but at no point does he flatly tell them that they must conquer the world. Christians have a militaristic history because we're human and we're flawed, and, in the case of the Crusades, because the Muslims attacked us first. Islam, on the other hand, is an existential threat to free, Western society.
The entirety of the old testament is like that. The book of revelations speaks of preparing for a war between believers led by god and non-believers led by Satan. The bible is just as full of war and violence as the Qur'an, easily. Not all of it was rendered inapplicable, and if it was it seems pointless as to why it is even still in the book. To that end, you can't blame the crusades on the Islamic people alone. Border clashes between the Byzantine Empire and the Seljuq dynasty were provoked by [b]both sides[/b]. Both were imperialistic expanding empires, so it's only natural. The only thing the Seljuq dynasty was guilty of was winning the fight, and this caused the Byzantine Empire to call on the Holy Roman Empire for help. Hence, the crusades. Moreover, this does not justify the torture of jews that happened during the crusades, and doesn't even come near justifying the Spanish Inquisition. If you would read the Qur'an, you'd know that often professes peace as well as war. Much like the bible, people tend to ignore the parts they don't agree with in their day. You ignore Leviticus and the apocrypha, and many of them ignore certain suras that they don't agree with. It doesn't make you less of a Christian, and it doesn't make them less of a Muslim.
King Shere wrote:
[B]"History is written by the victors."[/B] "Books" from Library of Alexandria was allegedly used by the Muslims for bathhouse warming (this is dismissed as false, Its proposed that the Muslim made the false claim, them-selfs for propaganda reasons) http://www.nybooks.com/articles/3517 Muslim inventions was the result of translating the knowledge &"spoils" from the conquered "heathen" intellectual culture centers. Sure Islamic scholars furthered the intellectual development & continued the research - But thats because they were boosted by the translations. Translated "heathen" innovators & intellectuals was likely robbed of their credit. The Idea of Distillation of oil from wells was known to both the Babylonians and the ancient Greeks. There is a conjecture that the word "naphtha" is from the Hindu god Apam Napat. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gLQnmxGjpjIC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=%22a... Academy of Gundishapur 489-832 The intellectual center of the Sassanid empire. It offered training in medicine, philosophy, theology and science. They translated various works on medicine, astronomy, philosophy, and useful crafts. Indian and Chinese scholars visitors translated Indian texts on astronomy, astrology, mathematics and medicine and Chinese texts on herbal medicine and religion. The Sassanid dynasty fell to Muslim Arab armies in 638 AD. The academy survived the change of rulers and persisted for several centuries as a Muslim institute of higher learning. It was later rivaled by "The House of Wisdom" at Bagdad" as the intellectual center shifted. This is when the Islamic Golden age is said to have started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom [B]End of the Islamic Golden era[/B] Siege of Baghdad (1258) All libraries of Baghdad, containing countless precious historical documents and books on subjects ranging from medicine to astronomy, was destroyed. Survivors said that the waters of the Tigris ran black with ink from the enormous quantities of books flung into the river and red from the blood of the scientists and philosophers killed. Mongol invasion and the destruction of the libraries of Bagdad marks the main cause of the end of For the Islamic golden Era. Now who is using who's technology? The Victors are using the Technology and claiming the credit of its innovation.
While oils had been extracted prior to Muslim alchemy, the chemical compound [b]petrol/gasoline[/b] had not (and if you had been paying attention, that was the chemical I listed... not oil). It was a central component to Muslim explosive technology at the time, which Europe caught up with when it stole gunpowder from the east. Every single one of the innovations I listed were, in fact, created by Muslim engineers and alchemists. The largest majority of them are still in use today. While history is written by the victors, remember that the losers keep documents as well. And not every document can be burned... lest we wouldn't have much of the historical information we have today, written by both victors and losers. Namely Greek mythology, of which the documentation was deemed illegal by the Roman and Holy Roman Empires. The same is true about Norse mythology, Celtic mythology and the Gnostic texts of the bible. We still know about them, and copies (of most of it) in some form still exist, so apparently the victors aren't the only writers of history.
nick012000 wrote:
Yes, that's why Saudi Arabia has an Air Force of F-16s, and the Jihadis use AKs and RPGs.
Let's see how often that's true. Let's look at some other standard-issue US weaponry: FGM-172 SRAW: Built jointy by a US and Israeli corporation AT4: Built in Sweden M3 MAAWS: Sweden again Milkor MGL: Built in South Africa All standard issue heavy weaponry for the US military. That's not even the funniest part. Let's look at every pistol currently in US military usage: [list][*]M9 and M9A1: Italy [*]M11, Mk 24: Germany/Switzerland [*]P9S, P11, Mk 23 and P229R: Germany [*]MEU(SOC) and M1911: United States[/list] I guess you think we suck, because using other countries designs is a bad idea in your book.
nick012000 wrote:
Yes. Because a fancy-pants library is the equal of Silicon Valley.
Yeah, apparently it does. If the Bibliotheca Alexandrina is just a "fancy-pants library", then Silicon Valley is just a "big garage full of nerds".
nick012000 wrote:
They import all their engineers from the West; they don't really count.
We import many of our engineers from Europe and Japan. Hell, we import people from just about every possible major occupation there is from almost every single other country. Our entire nation is founded on the cornerstone of immigration. Apparently, we don't count either.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Fri, 2010-02-26 17:24
Psyfer Psyfer's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
TBRMInsanity wrote:
I really wished that EP would have got into what new religions would have sparked up since the Fall and why (an example I would like to know what religion uplifts follow). I think that certain fringe religions today (like scientology) may actually gain root as their crazy ideas now, are not so crazy in the EP universe.
I started a thread in the setting section about that topic, take a look it may have some useful ideas for you.
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Fri, 2010-02-26 23:22
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Psyfer wrote:
TBRMInsanity wrote:
I really wished that EP would have got into what new religions would have sparked up since the Fall and why (an example I would like to know what religion uplifts follow). I think that certain fringe religions today (like scientology) may actually gain root as their crazy ideas now, are not so crazy in the EP universe.
I started a thread in the setting section about that topic, take a look it may have some useful ideas for you.
Link?
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Fri, 2010-02-26 23:49
Psyfer Psyfer's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
http://www.eclipsephase.com/praise-those-who-gave-us-free-will-who-rose-...
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Wed, 2010-08-25 16:01
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
I know I'm resurrecting a very dead thread, but... this issue really bothers me. I can understand the arguments that rationalism will eventually drive religion out, and questions about the adaptability of religion. All that is fine and good. However, none of these seem to note that the entire race has just undergone EXTREME psychological stress, a destruction of their homeworld and everything familiar, the death of loved ones, and a great injustice. People post about how common psychological derangements should be, about emotional reactions and extremism. Yet aren't these exactly the same circumstances that make religion popular? A religion could say black is white, but if it also says that your wife and children who you saw melted in front of you are content and waiting for you, that your cowardice is forgiven, that everything is for the better... you're going to be tempted to accept that. This is combined with the demographic information. If we look at the Languages of Eclipse Phase thread: http://www.eclipsephase.com/languages-eclipse-phase We see that 1 out of 10 people are Arabic (an extremely religious culture), 1 out of 20 are Indonesian (extremely religious again), and 1 out of 20 are Latin American (extremely religious and, curiously, predominantly Catholic). And these numbers aren't including the Junta who we are told are almost ALL American and Latin American, and almost all conservative. That screams to me Christianity. Yet despite this, the only mention of religious meccas, holy lands, spiritual shrines, pilgrimages, meditation pools, important temples, etc. are a few crazies on asteroids and a few decorative temples on Luna. It seems to me that you're going to have important temples on every major habitat, and minor shrines on half of them. You will have new prophets springing up like crab grass. Three times in a 24-hour cycle a tenth of your population will refer to their muse and turn Earthwards to pray for half an hour. People will voluntarily limit their changing of morphs (except out of necessity, of course) to meet religious requirements. Whatever crazy thing needs to be done - as long as someone can say to them, with authority, "all that death, all that loss, it wasn't for nothing". I have to imagine that even people who disagree with religion on a fundamental level will agree with me on this point. Freud said religion is a crutch. Marx said it's the opiate of the people. And it's fine to think that, as humanity outgrows its old ways and needs, that we won't need crutches and opiates. However, in this setting, at this time, there is nothing transhumanity needs MORE than something to take away the pain for a little bit, to help it hobble along. Nanotechnology can't do that. The Factors can't either. But religion can.
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Wed, 2010-08-25 16:56
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
I agree. People are meaning-seekers, especially when faced with threats or even reminders of their own mortality. I think the real threat to religions in EP has been ways of ensuring prosperity and continued life: backup insurance destroys religion far more than education. As a general rule of thumb people tend to become more religious when they feel their position is vulnerable, and they become less religious when there are reliable safety nets. Just look at the Scandinavian countries, where religiosity has largely been replaced by various welfare solutions (the fact that they are by no means emotionally satisfactory leads to a certain level of existential angst, but that doesn't equate to flocking to any traditional religions). However, the rather dystopian backstory of EP suggests that before the Fall relatively few people were living in safe content societies, and that means religion was likely pretty strong. The Fall of course ramped up the uncertainty. The level of religiosity of the nationalities in EP is likely to vary. Groups that currently are very religious can easily lose that in the intervening generations (just compare post-WWII changes in religiosity).
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Wed, 2010-08-25 19:33
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Quote:
Groups that currently are very religious can easily lose that in the intervening generations (just compare post-WWII changes in religiosity)
On the other hand groups which suffered the most in WW2-Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians are among the most religious. So a large stress and breakdown of society would likely result in attempts of religious interpretations. While that might not be Christianity, a large number of people would try to define the Fall in some mystical or religious matter. That or the religion section of the brain is removed by Basic Biomods ;)
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Thu, 2010-08-26 05:23
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Of course, there is also a selection effect. Many Abrahamitic religions would have problems with uploading, since it directly disproves the indivisibility, non-materiality and uniqueness of the soul. So it is not a stretch to think that a lot of religious people hesitated from getting stacks or having backup copies. The the Fall came. Despite a lot of them changing their mind in the face of imminent danger, they were strongly under-represented among the saved in comparison to post-religious people or people from religions OK with copyable souls.
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Thu, 2010-08-26 10:26
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Arenamontanus wrote:
Of course, there is also a selection effect. Many Abrahamitic religions would have problems with uploading, since it directly disproves the indivisibility, non-materiality and uniqueness of the soul. So it is not a stretch to think that a lot of religious people hesitated from getting stacks or having backup copies. The the Fall came. Despite a lot of them changing their mind in the face of imminent danger, they were strongly under-represented among the saved in comparison to post-religious people or people from religions OK with copyable souls.
Which is why I play Jovian characters with the view that once you resleeve once, you are technically dead (especially if your original body is destroyed).
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Thu, 2010-08-26 12:46
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
As progress occurs, religion tends to follow in its footsteps. Religion is durable not necessarily because faith is strong, but because people tend to believe in things that match their culture. Large governments and centralized corporations have given way to self-governed habitats and decentralized corporate structures that tend to specialize. Religion likely followed suit: large religious entities and groups likely gave way to decentralized, smaller religious circles. Religion as a truly personal concept is likely very prominent. It's likely that belief in some form is still very prominent in EP's time (especially since advanced TITAN technology tends to look very supernatural), but most people see no particular reason to argue, convert or fight over it.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Thu, 2010-08-26 13:00
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Decivre wrote:
As progress occurs, religion tends to follow in its footsteps. Religion is durable not necessarily because faith is strong, but because people tend to believe in things that match their culture. Large governments and centralized corporations have given way to self-governed habitats and decentralized corporate structures that tend to specialize. Religion likely followed suit: large religious entities and groups likely gave way to decentralized, smaller religious circles. Religion as a truly personal concept is likely very prominent. It's likely that belief in some form is still very prominent in EP's time (especially since advanced TITAN technology tends to look very supernatural), but most people see no particular reason to argue, convert or fight over it.
I agree with you. While religion is slow to change (at least the largest and most mainstream groups like the Catholic Church), it does eventually change, and usually to reflect the culture that it is most predominant in. Prefect example is the Pope saying that Evolution is correct. God uses evolution in his intelligent design. I can see the remnants of the different Christian Churches, claiming the TITANs were devils sent to test transhumanity.
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Thu, 2010-08-26 15:46
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
TBRMInsanity wrote:
I agree with you. While religion is slow to change (at least the largest and most mainstream groups like the Catholic Church), it does eventually change, and usually to reflect the culture that it is most predominant in. Prefect example is the Pope saying that Evolution is correct. God uses evolution in his intelligent design. I can see the remnants of the different Christian Churches, claiming the TITANs were devils sent to test transhumanity.
New faiths tend to crop up in the wake of major social events. The Fall is definitely one of these things, so I imagine that many faiths in 10 AF may have either been newly founded from the Fall, or are a new offshoot created by its effects. For instance, I created one group within the Junta called the New Orthodoxy, which is a remerging of the East Orthodox and Catholic churches in the wake of the destruction of both groups. It is decentralized, and relies on an open democracy of priests (and occasionally followers) rather than a central figure for decision-making purposes. Mahayana Buddhism has made the transition most easily in comparison to other faiths, having already been a mostly decentralized faith. It now has entire meditation centers and temples for public use... on the mesh.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Thu, 2010-08-26 15:52
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
You new Orthodoxy is a great idea. I was going to write up an IC article about neo-Christianity within the Jovian Republic, but I didn't know where to start. My idea was to merge Protestant and Catholic beliefs (using the Church of England/Anglican Church as an example). Basically Catholic dogma (which most of the Junta citizens would have followed Pre-Fall, but with a more Protestant organizational structure (Several priests (ie the ones that survived) could elect one of their own to be a Bishop, several Bishops (either survivors or elected) can elect one of their own to be an Arch-Bishop). The key to neo-Christianity would be that all the Cardinals and the Pope is dead so no one can inherent the keys of St. Peter and become the new Pope. I have a resource on the Croatian Orthodox Church. I think I will go through it and see if some of their structure would work out better. Side question: What is the current break down of Christian denominations within the USA and Latin America, and what are the growth/shrinking trends of each denomination (for example is the Catholic church the biggest but it is currently shrinking)?
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Thu, 2010-08-26 18:57
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
I do agree that "immortality factor" is a big game changer. In my game Catholic Church has little membershipa nd eventually declined due to incompatible beliefs in ever changing century-bans forking, ego casting, genetic engineering beyond correction of disease, small genetic changes like cosmetic ones are seen as minor sin. Having forks is reason for excommunication. Still they were catholics on both Moon and Mars colonies and both celestial bodies had appointed bishops by Rome. The current population of Catholics is focused on Lunar Cathedral and Mars with around 200.000 members. Mostly in Earth Orbit orbitals and on Luna. A much vibrant religious group is The Church of Saint Teilhard de Chardin, whose believers allow biomorphs, are attached to the idea of Omega Point(and see Fall as the consequence of Man's Sins destroying their communication with Ever-Existing-Future God). The biomorphs are accepted up to a certain limit-harsh deviations from basic human form are not allowed-what is acceptable is that which allows the humans to live and flourish in space, and to spread the gift of intelligence and life to other celestial regions. Many of the Catholic dogma's are upheld-such as ban on abortion of sentient life, sanctity of marriage and so on. They do however believe in destiny of Man to transform the universe into a loving, living Cosmos with life spread on every planet. Thus they support terraforming, extrasolar colonization and space exploration. Their membership is around 500.000.
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Fri, 2010-08-27 01:01
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
I do agree that "immortality factor" is a big game changer. In my game Catholic Church has little membershipa nd eventually declined due to incompatible beliefs in ever changing century-bans forking, ego casting, genetic engineering beyond correction of disease, small genetic changes like cosmetic ones are seen as minor sin. Having forks is reason for excommunication. Still they were catholics on both Moon and Mars colonies and both celestial bodies had appointed bishops by Rome. The current population of Catholics is focused on Lunar Cathedral and Mars with around 200.000 members. Mostly in Earth Orbit orbitals and on Luna. A much vibrant religious group is The Church of Saint Teilhard de Chardin, whose believers allow biomorphs, are attached to the idea of Omega Point(and see Fall as the consequence of Man's Sins destroying their communication with Ever-Existing-Future God). The biomorphs are accepted up to a certain limit-harsh deviations from basic human form are not allowed-what is acceptable is that which allows the humans to live and flourish in space, and to spread the gift of intelligence and life to other celestial regions. Many of the Catholic dogma's are upheld-such as ban on abortion of sentient life, sanctity of marriage and so on. They do however believe in destiny of Man to transform the universe into a loving, living Cosmos with life spread on every planet. Thus they support terraforming, extrasolar colonization and space exploration. Their membership is around 500.000.
What about the Jovian Republic? I would imagine with such a large Latin American population that the Catholic Church would have had at least one bishop assigned to it.
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Fri, 2010-08-27 10:16
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Here's the thing... Okay, the Catholic Church says that farcasting is a mortal sin, and thusly, it dies out. However, I was born and raised Catholic. Baptised, first communion, so on and so forth. I believe in God, and now that everything around me is on fire, I REALLY believe in God. I farcasted away, so now the Church won't recognize me, but... I'm going to find a church to go, which also believes in God, and has familiar rituals for me to participate in. If the RCC won't take me in, I'm pretty sure I'll find SOMEONE who will. In economic terms, it means that while EP may have correctly recognized a drop in demand pre-Fall, and a drastic drop in supply post-Fall, it failed to acknowledge the huge demand post-Fall - and that post-Fall demand will CREATE supply. There WILL BE a church that offers baptism, first communion, marriage, priests, bishops, communion, last rites and so on, who worships God, Jesus and the cross, reads a Bible and whatnot. It may not be Catholic, or even, strictly speaking, Christian, but it will resemble this - because people want it. I don't know if this is represented by the Techno-Creationists or something else, but it does need to be represented.
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Fri, 2010-08-27 10:50
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
In the end, there are always splinter-groups who grow in power and followers who are then called the main thing. Just like roman catholics are considered THE christians in europe. Heck, if there are those who say farcasting is a sin and the pope says so too, and then gets killed in the Fall, those who survived could actually interpret it as a lack of faith. Questioning follows and a new sect is born.
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Fri, 2010-08-27 12:01
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Quote:
What about the Jovian Republic? I would imagine with such a large Latin American population that the Catholic Church would have had at least one bishop assigned to it.
I would say they have their own seperate Church-like most authoritarian regimes, that is seperate from authority of the independent clergy-like a lof of communist states who had their own churches established by authorities. Personally though I am of the view, that Catholic Church fell into decline long before the Fall already, since the practical applications of new technology went against its creed and were just too attractive for many ot resist. Thus while I think it's fun to have some of its remnants-I wouldn't consider it a major faction post-Fall. Of course it is still a nice hook for game scenarios, and some of left-over clergy in Luna or Earth Orbit could have access to significant resources or secrets.
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Fri, 2010-10-15 11:08
Happy Tofu Boy Happy Tofu Boy's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
First of all i think the way Relgion is handled in EC is great, because i felt that this hot topic is handeled with care and ojectivity (i speak of the infos in the Core Rules). Then yes this thread is a little old, but i just created my acount and wanted to my 2 cents in here... So about the change of Major Religons, personally i think it's really interesting how these philosphies will change, or react on the Status Quo in Transhuman society. I think progessive Believers from the Monothesitic Religions, will take up their Hohly Texts and convert the Message to circumstances of Transhuman society (i hope you get what i mean, english is not my mother languae , so it is a bit difficult to express what i mean.... ;) ). And as Roleplayer i think that will be a nice part of Social gaming, to question yourself in Character, how do you feel about things like resleeving and beeing relgious. Will you be pragmatic or not. I guess that's a nice conflict! So and thanx to TBRMinsanity and Decivre for beeing open minded with Islam, such behavouir is really rare these days!
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Fri, 2010-10-15 13:30
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Happy Tofu Boy wrote:
First of all i think the way Relgion is handled in EC is great, because i felt that this hot topic is handeled with care and ojectivity (i speak of the infos in the Core Rules). Then yes this thread is a little old, but i just created my acount and wanted to my 2 cents in here... So about the change of Major Religons, personally i think it's really interesting how these philosphies will change, or react on the Status Quo in Transhuman society. I think progessive Believers from the Monothesitic Religions, will take up their Hohly Texts and convert the Message to circumstances of Transhuman society (i hope you get what i mean, english is not my mother languae , so it is a bit difficult to express what i mean.... ;) ). And as Roleplayer i think that will be a nice part of Social gaming, to question yourself in Character, how do you feel about things like resleeving and beeing relgious. Will you be pragmatic or not. I guess that's a nice conflict! So and thanx to TBRMinsanity and Decivre for beeing open minded with Islam, such behavouir is really rare these days!
Only with an open mind and logical deliberation can we all (all people of the Earth) dispel the myths of our past and move towards universal peace. Every Religion in the world (including "perverse" ones like Satanism and Scientology) have something to offer to people to make them better then they currently are. I have to say I love this RPG forum of all the forums I'm on because there are so many open minded people that are willing to discuss "no-no" topics like philosophy, politics, and religion without the need for censorship.
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Sat, 2010-10-16 04:30
Happy Tofu Boy Happy Tofu Boy's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
@TRBMInsanity: Yeah universal peace, that's fine with me! Uhm honest as long as I'm beeing treated with respect I can accept almost anything. And before someone gets me we wrong pointing you two (you and decivre), doesn't mean that i think others lack an open mind (just for the protocl... ;) ). @ Topic: What i also find interesting is how Relgions, or Spiritual Philosophies (or however you want to call it) meld with the new Lifestyles. I heard some years ago of a community Muslim Community in Spain that organized their life on an anarchist base, mean they took the example of the Prophet Mohammed (peace be with him and his Fam) and had'nt a special Leadership System and worked with direct Demorcracy. Taking up this i ask myself: "uhm how would maybe a Hindu Community on Mars work, or is there Christian Priest who defies the Policies of the Junta, like some upright Cathlic Priests in Latain Amerika who stands against opression?!" And how can i use these Social topics to get a nice Plot or Background for my Gaming Sessions!
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Mon, 2010-11-29 16:35
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Don't know if it's bad form to throw my two cents in when this discussion is going, but I'd like to add my voice to the idea that Christianity would fare better than Islam, primarily because the former has had far longer to adapt to "progressive" lifestyles than the latter. They'd both change, considerably, but one would most certainly do better than the other. What's surprising is that no-one's mentioned folk religions, especially Chinese ones. With China having a significant population represented in space, ethnically speaking, it shouldn't be surprising if Chinese traditional religion (ancestor worship especially, given the Fall) is particularly frequent in rearing its head. I also once had an EP character who belonged to a cult of Singularity Seekers, who believed that an Almighty Machine God either exists now, or will come into existence in the future, and they worked to gather knowledge, try to find this Machine God and/or bring it into existence. A heresy within the faction that believed the TITANs to be emissaries of the Machine God got them wiped out.
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[img]http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/982/exhumanbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4473/scumbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1396/gatecrasherbar.jpg[/img] [code][@-rep +1, f-rep +2][/code]
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Mon, 2010-11-29 18:21
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
With China having a significant population represented in space, ethnically speaking, it shouldn't be surprising if Chinese traditional religion (ancestor worship especially, given the Fall) is particularly frequent in rearing its head.
There is a fun scene in Accelerando that fits nicely:
Quote:
Ancestor worship takes on a whole new meaning when the state vectors of all the filial entities' precursors are archived and indexed for recall. At just the moment that the tiny capillaries in Rita's face are constricting in response to a surge of adrenaline, causing her to turn pale and her pupils to dilate as she focuses on the pussycat-thing, Sirhan is kneeling before a small shrine, lighting a stick of incense, and preparing to respectfully address his grandfather's ghost. The ritual is, strictly speaking, unnecessary. Sirhan can speak to his grandfather's ghost wherever and whenever he wants, without any formality, and the ghost will reply at interminable length, cracking puns in dead languages and asking about people who died before the temple of history was established. But Sirhan is a sucker for rituals, and anyway, it helps him structure an otherwise-stressful encounter. If it were up to Sirhan, he'd probably skip chatting to grandfather every ten megaseconds. Sirhan's mother and her partner aren't available, having opted to join one of the long-distance exploration missions through the router network that were launched by the accelerationistas long ago; and Rita's antecedents are either fully virtualized or dead. They are a family with a tenuous grip on history. But both of them spent a long time in the same state of half-life in which Manfred currently exists, and he knows his wife will take him to task if he doesn't bring the revered ancestor up to date on what's been happening in the real world while he's been dead. In Manfred's case, death is not only potentially reversible, but almost inevitably so. After all, they're raising his clone. Sooner or later, the kid is going to want to visit the original, or vice versa. What a state we have come to, when the restless dead refuse to stay a part of history? He wonders ironically as he scratches the self-igniter strip on the red incense stick and bows to the mirror at the back of the shrine. "Your respectful grandson awaits and expects your guidance," he intones formally - for in addition to being conservative by nature, Sirhan is acutely aware of his family's relative poverty and the need to augment their social credit, and in this reincarnation-intermediated traditionalist polity for the hopelessly orthohuman, you can score credit for formality. He sits back on his heels to await the response. Manfred doesn't take long to appear in the depths of the mirror. He takes the shape of an albino orang-utan, as usual: He was messing around with Great Aunt Annette's ontological wardrobe right before this copy of him was recorded and placed in the temple - they might have separated, but they remained close. "Hi, lad. What year is it?
I like the idea of ancestor worshipper looking for the great machine. Or trying to reach their ancestors who ascended with the TITANs.
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Extropian
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Mon, 2010-11-29 21:35
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
There is a great write up about Asian Religion in Shadows of Asia (and SR3 book). The main thing I got from it was that people in Asia don't follow one Religion per say. They follow several Religions as they relate to their lives. So in the work place they follow the tenants of Fung Suey, in their house hold they will be Taoists, and they would use Buddhism to relate to their friends. All Religions are correct as they all have an important message on how to follow a certain part of your life (much like Europeans and North Americans have different methodologies they follow on how to raise their kids, do their job, and build/maintain social networks).
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Tue, 2010-12-07 15:04
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Arenamontanus wrote:
I like the idea of ancestor worshipper looking for the great machine. Or trying to reach their ancestors who ascended with the TITANs.
I am suddenly reminded of [url=http://www.philtered.net/~adam/app/prayterm.html]therosary.py[/url]. I wonder what the TITANs would make of such incoming transmissions.
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[img]http://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/info_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/argo_userbar.jpg[/img] [url=https://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/blankbadge.png][img]http://drwho.vir...
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Wed, 2010-12-08 08:57
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
The Doctor wrote:
Arenamontanus wrote:
I like the idea of ancestor worshipper looking for the great machine. Or trying to reach their ancestors who ascended with the TITANs.
I am suddenly reminded of [url=http://www.philtered.net/~adam/app/prayterm.html]therosary.py[/url]. I wonder what the TITANs would make of such incoming transmissions.
The link is broken.
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Wed, 2011-01-12 20:37
travelnjones travelnjones's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Personally i disagree with with the games take on religion. Take christian science that seems right up the games alley. At least for infomorphs " There is no life, truth, intelligence, nor substance in matter. All is infinite Mind and its infinite manifestation, for God is All-in-all. Spirit is immortal Truth; matter is mortal error. Spirit is the real and eternal; matter is the unreal and temporal. Spirit is God, and man is His image and likeness. Therefore man is not material; he is spiritual.[14]" <- qoute here i found in wiki Philosophy and religion seem more needed by people when they are unsure of existence which is going to be the case for a great number of people. People that are not embracing transhumanism so much as coming to grips with it. I have heard about some trans/post human book were the main character basically lives forever and has a suit that allow him to even visit the center of stars. He has removed part of his memory for some reason. No idea of the name or author. Anyway it got me thinking about these godlike immortal humans. At some point in billions of years they are going to become bored with existence. Transhumans will eventually just become bored and kill themselves. At the point where they end material existence completely, that is the point religion would be interesting. I am talking about living a life on geological time scales when i talk about becoming bored
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Sun, 2011-01-30 02:51
emaughan emaughan's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Quote:
Are there always going to be some people who need religion or other superstitions to provide them with emotional or psychological support?
Athiesm is a religion based on the belief that there is no god or soul. No way to prove it, but it can be a strong belief for that individual. Ironic that many atheist state religion is just a product of evolution (are the non-religious products deevolution?). Being an evolution fan boy and a science geek, I never did agree with the arguments that religion is a result of evolutionary processes when so much of religion goes counter to getting ones genes passed on. No adultry - why? More of your genes getting passed on! No stealing - advantage goes to the good theif who can procure more resources. No murder - again increases your resources AND gets rid of genetic competition. Help the poor - now we're getting totally crazy. There are a few hypotheisis that have some merit in the argument that religion may just be a gene thing, but most of what I have seen - instead of using good scientific methodology - is riddled with loads and loads of speculation. Where is the null hypothesis? Can't find it - that's not good if your doing serious science and not just looking to push your belie... I mean "theory". There is, however, plenty of circlular reasoning. My favorite: there is no god thus religion must be a product of evolution and evolution proves that there is no god because religion is purely a product of evolution. Ok, one thing that applies to the game. The idea that most religion will colapse after a singularity event is silly. Religion - if one believes in a god or if they believe it is simply a product of evolution - has been with mankind for a long time. Through good times and bad. Some cultures it gets week, some cultures it grows strong. America and India have very many religious followers while Sweden and China do not (for different reasons). EP ignoring religion is not new in Scifi, and unfortunately weakens the "universe" of the game. Star Trek the Next Generation only approached religion from the view point of a "primative leftover" but most of mankind... (oops - can't use the masculine) people have moved on because everone is so much smarter and enlightened in the future. Liberals in Space was my alternate title for STTNG. Babylon 5 did a fantastic job of dealing with religion and I give a lot of credit to the creator - an atheist - for not poopooing people of faith or ignoring the powerful role it will continue to play. BSG, both old and new, delt with religious themes and the shows were better for it. Got some of that off my chest. I have no problem if someone is an atheist, or of another faith, let him worship how where or what he may. Religion is here to stay and even the atheist can have a strong belief system and "religious" tenets to which they live by. The real question is in the EP universe would most people convert to the atheist religion? I doubt it - of course that's just my belief ;-)
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Sun, 2011-01-30 02:56
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
For my Campaign, I've come with a church worshipping the ETI that "uplifted" the TITANs and granted us the Pandora's Gate. They belief that massive uploads are the truest way for immortality, the next evolution for man. After Humanity, and Transhumanity, the shapeless Posthumanity, shepherded by TITANs, leaving behind our own client uplifted races Picture the STO from Caprica mixed with the Church of Unitology and the Eskathonic Brotherhood (from Fading Suns)
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Sun, 2011-01-30 18:06
root root's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
root@On Religion in the Transhumanist Future [hr] If atheism is a religion based on the belief that there is no divine other, then doesn't Eclipse Phase do a decent job of handling religion? There are groups fervently devout to the idea of an empty universe, there are the Singulatarians who are trying to create their or become own gods, and there are TITAN worshipers who believe that the Rapture already came and they were left behind. The psychological niche that religion fills is well represented in Eclipse Phase, it just doesn't have a form we are very familiar with. I would be interested in some treatment of Uplift religious beliefs though, as those are the ones most likely to be entirely alien to the human viewpoint of religion.
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Tue, 2011-02-01 01:04
emaughan emaughan's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Quote:
If atheism is a religion based on the belief that there is no divine other, then doesn't Eclipse Phase do a decent job of handling religion?
No (IMHO). They are currently missing so much variety. The secularist are well represented, but I believe that in such a time of stress religious faiths would be booming. New churches forming, old churches transforming, and others increasing their focus on traditions. Besides variety, it would be important to present the different faiths as more than just "straw men" for the secularist to beat up. This is somewhat mentioned in my previous post as the STTNG viewpoint - while some groups do practice religion - most of the enlightened members of the federation have moved on. Now getting this into the game can be tough especially when representing current faiths in the EPverse (not sure if that works as a word). Reading the post I find it a bit funny some mini arguments cropping up - including mine - about faith. Sooo how do you include faiths - which can add a great deal to the game - without creating nothing more than a bunch of stooges. Atheist rarely get it right on why some believe so strongly as per the creator of this thread - I am not a believer because as Chapman stated, "need religion or other superstitions to provide them with emotional or psychological support?" Many people who are of my faith, and other faiths, believe because the seek after the truth. This would included those who are atheist - they believe because they feel it is the truth. There would be no way that I would devote my life to something that somehow gave me comfort, but I know was not true. So again, how to write good material about different beliefs, without creating nothing more than a characture of those faiths. Orson Scott Card does a very good job of integrating religious concepts into his stories. Frank Herbert's first book in the Dune serious also did well. It works well if there is a "bigger picture" included in motivations of PCs and NPCs, and not just a "setup" where one faith rules and the other faiths are there to only show how great the author's POV is in comparison.
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Tue, 2011-02-01 02:26
root root's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
root@On Religion in the Transhumanist Future [hr] If atheism is considered to be a religion in its own right, then religion is considered to be belief in a god or gods somewhere on a spectrum ranging from a singular God to no gods at all. Religion can then be seen as a sociological structure with specific roles to fill in society without any implication that religion is merely a sociological phenomenon. From this delicately stated definition of religion, I am certain we could hold a civil discourse and still argue our mutually exclusive convictions, but to ask that the writers do the same would perhaps be a bit unreasonable. Instead, they made the game under Creative Commons, so people are free to write their religious viewpoints of the transhumanist future presented in Eclipse Phase.
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Tue, 2011-02-01 09:22
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Religion is a set of social beliefs to help explain unknown phenomenons and give a code for guiding morality. Religious orders may believe in many to no gods, they may be very ceremonial or very freelance. The key is that it is a social structure that binds together a group of individuals and dictates how they are expected to treat each other, and others outside the group. It also dictates why we should treat each other, and others outside the group in this manner. Atheism could be a religion is it meets these criteria. Is it a social structure? Do Atheists have a common set of rules that dictate how they are expected to treat other Atheists and non-Atheists? Does this set of common rules dictate why you are expected to treat Atheists and non-Atheists in this specified manner? Remember these rules don't have to be written down (though most organized religions do).
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Tue, 2011-02-01 20:03
root root's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
root@On Religion in the Transhumanist Future [hr] The important point in recognizing atheism as a religion is that it strips religion of its self-ordained position as the standard of comparison on belief. If atheists are treated as people who have stopped believing in gods, or haven't learned the "truths" of religion yet, then religion is held to be part of the basic human template that atheists have somehow departed from. If atheists treat religions as delusions that people have not yet been "freed" from, then they are presupposing a basic human template that theists have somehow departed from. Since the only logically supportable belief when it comes to religion is agnosticism (nothing can be proven either way), then taking the step to declare that there is no god is a declaration of a faith. Like any faith, there are implicit declarations on what is considered a moral action based on the cosmology being championed. These implicit declarations run afoul of theists because they do not believe there is another realm of existence that somehow balances the unfairness of life, and therefore require the atheist to recognize that there is nothing to justify suffering. Do atheists organize? They don't see the same need to do so that religions do. Do atheists have a common set of rules to dictate how they are expected to interact with other humans? Game theory. Game theory is not just a common set of rules on how we are expected to interact with each other, but a common set of rules on how we are forced to interact with each other by the limitations of communication. With game theory as a guiding rule set, society is only an amoral and heartless place if your opponents choose it to be.
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Wed, 2011-02-02 14:32
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
I agree that Atheism could be considered a religion. The Golden Rule could be explained as such: Treat others the same way you would like to be treated, because in a society you need others to help you succeed. If everyone did what they wanted and didn't treat others they way they wanted to be treated, then society would fail and [trans]humanity would cease to function. Having everyone sacrifice some of their personal freedoms, allows everyone to have more freedom in the end. Logic and the social interactions become the defining idea in the religion. I'm still a Christian but I do like seeing other people's belief from their POV. It allows me to better understand why I choose to be Christian.
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Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
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Wed, 2011-02-02 14:57
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
I think atheism would require more than that to be a religion, otherwise it's just a philosophy. A religion presumes a belief in the supernatural.
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Wed, 2011-02-02 17:49
root root's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
root@On Religion in the Transhumanist Future [hr]
Wikipedia wrote:
Religion is a cultural system that creates powerful and long-lasting meaning, by establishing symbols that relate humanity to truths and values.[1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.
Nothing there about the supernatural. Atheists certainly derive morality, ethics, and lifestyles from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature, and it is definitely a cultural system. It fails to have nearly so many narratives, symbols, and traditions as other religions, but it is intended to give some meaning to life. Or at least, some comfort in the lack of meaning to life. Now, that being said:
Wikipedia wrote:
Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.
Atheism certainly contains a philosophy, but so do all religions. The main difference between a religious philosophy and other philosophies has to do with religion assuming something unprovable about the cosmos and human nature.
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Wed, 2011-02-02 22:33
emaughan emaughan's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Quote:
I think atheism would require more than that to be a religion, otherwise it's just a philosophy. A religion presumes a belief in the supernatural.
Not all religions believe in the "supernatural". LDS members believe that all things in this universe are governed by laws and priniciples that God has established - these laws and principles may not all be understood at this time by us, but some day we will come to a fullness of knowledge. Science is viewed as good method to learn truth and survey done back in the 90s found that per capita, more Mormons choose a field of science as a career than any other group - even atheist. God is not "magic" or supernatural in our belief (I happen to be one of these per capita Mormon science guys). There are atheist that hold an almost reverent view of science and have even hijacked and dogmatized some scientific theories to further their meme. Hard core atheist can be some of the biggest religious zeolots I have ever encountered. Speaking with some atheist reminded me some of the lectures I would get from fundamentalist evangelics as to why I am going to Hell. The only difference was the lecture was on how silly I was to believe in God and miracles blah, blah, blah (so either I'm going to burn for eternity - with my friends - or am going to be blotted out of excistance forever when I die). Though they may not be believers in the supernatural - they sure had many of the attitudes that I have found in other "true" believers. As I stated, I think it is good to add religions and religious issues to RPGs because they can add so much more depth to the backgrounds and motivations of PCs and NPCs. Atheism included. The problem with EP (don't get me wrong, I think it is a very cool game) is that Atheism is the only "real" religion presented. Sure there our other faiths mentioned but most of them are, at best, a strawman that is easy to beat up on.
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Wed, 2011-02-02 22:44
emaughan emaughan's picture
Re: On Religion in the Transhumanist Future
Quote:
The main difference between a religious philosophy and other philosophies has to do with religion assuming something unprovable about the cosmos and human nature.
I remember from my philisophy 101 class that "provable" can become pretty tricky to the point of ridiculous. The old, "I think therefore I am" proving your existance got replaced by, "only thoughts are real and nothing else can be known". As for the belief in God or the belief in no God - neither can be proven and as was stated in an earlier post, only the agnostics have a safe position on this one. Everyone else is religious - but that also makes things more interesting. Sorry agnostics, but your position is kind of boring. Even though I firmly disagree with them, at least atheist are willing to take a leap of faith and stand up for their firm "non-belief" ;-).
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