Drones and initiative | Eclipse Phase

Fri, 2010-02-19 03:43

#2

Bloodwork

Re: Drones and initiative

I will assume an AI in a drone is essentially sleeved and therefore has Speed 1 like any other character. The argument/discussion I'm having with a player is this: due to there being no recoil rules in EP, a gun can be fired as many time as you pull the trigger. In the case of a SA weapon this comes to 8 times per round (someone with speed 4 using the 2 SA shots per complex action option). If guns can be operated via smartlink (they have cameras and can be fired remotely through the mesh), then one could be fixed to a swivel-mount and fired remotely. This is where it gets tricky. In this case, looking through and firing the weapon are all done via the mesh and therefore count as mesh only actions. Therefore as an infomorph, he gets 3 actions per turn.

—

That which doesn't kill you usually succeeds on the second attempt.

Thu, 2010-02-18 19:59

#3

Sepherim

Re: Drones and initiative

Indeed, Bloodwork. Nasty, isn't it?

—

The mind is information... hack it! [IMG]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j166/Sepherim/Otros/F_Rep.jpg[/IMG] +4 http://tribulaciones.es/

Fri, 2010-02-19 14:25

#4

jackgraham jackgraham's picture

Re: Drones and initiative

I'll let other designers sound off on the rest of this, but I would point out that even without recoil modifiers to aim, if someone is firing 8 shots around in .1 G or lower, you should definitely be calling for some Freefall tests.

—

J A C K G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth! http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham

Tue, 2010-02-23 12:38

#5

Bloodwork

Re: Drones and initiative

I'm still a bit confused. Do drones have a Speed of 1 unless they get cyberware speed upgrades?

—

That which doesn't kill you usually succeeds on the second attempt.

Fri, 2010-02-26 03:48

#6

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Drones and initiative

It makes sense. Imagine that you have a super-fast infomorph trying to control a slow drone. The infomorph can write poetry, do strategic planning and write angry letters to the manufacturer while the drone is ever so slowly moving its guns into position. Conversely, if somebody made a super-fast drone but the controller is slow, then the extra actions will either not happen or will be whatever was pre-set as default actions. It is always the slowest parts that slows down a system, adding something fast wont make the whole system fast (unless you can parallelise, like having several drones).

—

Fri, 2010-02-26 15:52

#7

Bloodwork

Re: Drones and initiative

I'm worried by the line under Shell remote control that says "The teleoperator’s skills and stats are used in place of the shell AI’s." It might be used to argue the operators Speed is used too.

—

That which doesn't kill you usually succeeds on the second attempt.

Fri, 2010-02-26 23:38

#8

Decivre

Re: Drones and initiative

Bloodwork wrote:
I'm worried by the line under Shell remote control that says "The teleoperator’s skills and stats are used in place of the shell AI’s." It might be used to argue the operators Speed is used too.

Doubtful. While your stats are used, Speed is a morph, not ego attribute. It would make as much sense to use the teleoperator's durability (which also would not make sense). Speed, Durability, Wound Threshold, and Death Rating are all defined by the shell.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Sun, 2011-06-26 00:23

#9

8w_gremlin 8w_gremlin's picture

Re: Drones and initiative

What about an Infomorph controlling more than one drone?

Sat, 2011-07-02 20:57

#10

BOMherren

Re: Drones and initiative

"Eclipse Phase 3rd, p.196, under Shell Remote Control" wrote:
When under direct control, the shell’s AI (or resident ego) is subsumed and put on standby. The drone only acts as instructed. Each instruction counts as a Quick Action. The drone acts with the same Initiative as the teleoperator, [b]but is still limited by the shell’s Speed.[/b]

"Eclipse Phase 3rd, p.196-197, under Shell Jamming" wrote:
A jamming teleoperator controls a drone as if it were their own morph. Like direct control teleoperation, the jammer’s own skills and Initiative are used in place of the drone’s AI, [b]though the shell’s aptitude maximums apply and physical actions are limited by the shell’s Speed[/b]. Jammers do not suffer any teleoperation modifiers, but only one drone may be jammed at a time.

Emphasis mine in both quotes. Both quotes seem to imply that the operator uses the lesser of his own Speed and that of his shell. No cheap speed boosts for you. (Though a jammer could potentially use his excess Speed for non-physical actions.) However...

"Eclipse Phase 3rd, p.196, under Shell Remote Control" wrote:
Multiple drones may be controlled at once, but commanding them requires separate Quick Actions unless they are receiving the same command.

So if you're running on your buddy's Ecto and you happen to have two dozen drones with you, then you can teleoperate them all to "Shoot the guy in the pony morph!" with a single Action, watch dronemageddon ensue, and still have two Actions left that turn to brag to everyone within hearing range about how awesome you are. On an *cough* unrelated note, I just found another reason why I love Desktop Cornucopia Machines as starting equipment...

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/aa_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/open_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/immort_userbar.jpg[/img]

Sat, 2011-07-02 21:51

#11

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Drones and initiative

BOMherren wrote:
On an *cough* unrelated note, I just found another reason why I love Desktop Cornucopia Machines as starting equipment...

You know who else loves it when characters take a DCM at character generation? The Exsurgent virus. Bwuhahahaha!

—

-

Sun, 2011-07-03 00:54

#12

The Demon Code The Demon Code's picture

Re: Drones and initiative

BOMherren wrote:
So if you're running on your buddy's Ecto and you happen to have two dozen drones with you, then you can teleoperate them all to "Shoot the guy in the pony morph!" with a single Action, watch dronemageddon ensue, and still have two Actions left that turn to brag to everyone within hearing range about how awesome you are.

Just to clarify, you can take multiple quick actions in an Action Phase as long as you don't take a quick aim action (EP, p.190). So the infomorph in BOMherren's example has at least two Quick Actions left with which to brag that Phase and at least 6 remaining Quick Actions on the other two phases. Also you can just fork an infomorph and download it into the drone's computer to control the drone directly. This is advantageous to avoid jamming or if your fork had psychosurgery to temporarily increase it's skills.

Wed, 2014-01-22 09:48

#13

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

jackgraham wrote:I'll let

jackgraham wrote:
I'll let other designers sound off on the rest of this, but I would point out that even without recoil modifiers to aim, if someone is firing 8 shots around in .1 G or lower, you should definitely be calling for some Freefall tests.

Even if a character were free-floating when they fired off eight rounds rapidly, the acceleration imparted by firing a propellant firearm would be minimal. I'm not saying it wouldn't be there at all, of course, it's still acceleration, but it wouldn't be enough to do more than fairly gently accelerate him backward. Even if he popped eight rounds out of a sniper rifle quick-like, it wouldn't accelerate him enough to interfere with his shooting in that round. Now, if he were firing off eight rail-sniper rounds, that might be another story... Pistol rounds, though? Fuggedabout it, and of course if he's using an energy weapon, there's literally no recoil, unless he's firing a plasma cannon and the exhaust has been magnetically coupled to his weapon's chassis. We like to call that "Rocket mode."

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Wed, 2014-01-22 21:21

#14

thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture

while 8 rounds, or even 8 3

while 8 rounds, or even 8 3 round bursts wont impart a lot of acceleration in terms of movement unless the line of force runs threw your center of mass it will be enough to get you rotating a bit. i would say a free fall roll is warranted to control this rotation. and i will again state that EP dose model recoil, in that a 3 round burst doesn't do as much damage as 3 single shots. a 10 round burst certainly doesn't do as much as 10 single shots. unless using burst or auto fire people actually take the time to correct there aim between shots so there is no penalty.

Thu, 2014-01-23 03:34

#15

Smokeskin

I just put in the numbers for

I just put in the numbers for my .308 winchester hunting rifle, and if I fired 8 rounds from it, I would be accelerated to 0.9 m/s, which is like a slow walk. And that's provided it pushes me on my center of gravity, which it likely won't. Instead, I'll start spinning (at this point I should read up on angular momentum and calculate how much, but meh). I agree with jackgraham, that calls for Freefall tests. You're not going to have some brutal accident, but if you want to keep fighting and shooting effectively under those conditions, you need to pass your Freefall tests. Made-up-on-the-spot-house-rule: In micro g, if you're unable to brace or secure yourself against recoil effects, every round of firing kinetic weapons imparts a -10 modifier to further tests involving orientation and stability, like firing and Freefall tests. You can take Freefall tests to reduce this modifier by 10. The Freefall test can made as a Quick Action, or as a Complex Action with a +30 modifier. I wouldn't bother with more detailed modifiers, weapon types and bullets fired, that seems like more realism just for realism's sake. Maybe let pistols fire up to 3 bullets and non-sniper weapons up to 1 without getting the modifier.

Thu, 2014-01-23 04:09

#16

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

-10 per round is an awful lot

-10 per round is an awful lot. I'd say more like -5, and making a successful Freefall test at any point (either as a quick action, or a complex with a +30 modifier,) negates all the negative modifiers you have built up so far. (You're taking an action to arrest your spin.) I'd also say that there's a weapon mod that effectively channels some of the expanding gasses from a standard firearm to negate any spin imparted, if it's connected to your mesh inserts and has an idea where in relation to your center of mass it is, or if you're wearing anything capable of controlling your own rotation, either by way of gyroscopic stabilization or RCS firing, it can be connected to the weapon's smartgun and the weapon can call for stabilizing force to be applied when it fires, negating the modifiers completely.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Thu, 2014-01-23 04:28

#17

Smokeskin

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
I'd also say that there's a weapon mod that effectively channels some of the expanding gasses from a standard firearm to negate any spin imparted, if it's connected to your mesh inserts and has an idea where in relation to your center of mass it is, or if you're wearing anything capable of controlling your own rotation, either by way of gyroscopic stabilization or RCS firing, it can be connected to the weapon's smartgun and the weapon can call for stabilizing force to be applied when it fires, negating the modifiers completely.

The gas venting thing sounds impossible, I don't see how there's enough momentum in it (and that's the problem here, conservation of momentum - we're assuming that EP guns has features that completely negate muzzle climb and minimizes jerk). I agree that wearing a gyroscopic system could keep you from spinning, and a gas jet system could negate everything.

Thu, 2014-01-23 05:35

#18

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Smokeskin wrote:The gas

Smokeskin wrote:
The gas venting thing sounds impossible, I don't see how there's enough momentum in it (and that's the problem here, conservation of momentum - we're assuming that EP guns has features that completely negate muzzle climb and minimizes jerk).

Rheological fluid systems, EP core says. Basically, smart fluids that jerk hard to counteract the effect of the round leaving the weapon. They're not recoilless, the recoil simply is not felt because the internal systems apply an equal and opposite reaction - is my understanding, anyway. And while a gas venting system might not be able to completely negate the recoil or the movement it imparts on you, I'd reckon that a cleverly designed one could negate any imparted angular momentum - you'd only move back, instead of spinning 'round.

Quote:
I agree that wearing a gyroscopic system could keep you from spinning, and a gas jet system could negate everything.

Aye. So ideally, if you're getting into any microgravity firefights and must use a projectile weapon that is not recoil-less (such as a launcher,) at the very least you want to be wearing a gyroscopic harness. Ideally, a full EVA maneuvering pack, though burning up your fuel to counteract weapon recoil is a bad prospect unless you're indoors. Still better than not actually shooting at your enemies, of course.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Thu, 2014-01-23 05:55

#19

Smokeskin

ShadowDragon8685 wrote

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
The gas venting thing sounds impossible, I don't see how there's enough momentum in it (and that's the problem here, conservation of momentum - we're assuming that EP guns has features that completely negate muzzle climb and minimizes jerk).
Rheological fluid systems, EP core says. Basically, smart fluids that jerk hard to counteract the effect of the round leaving the weapon. They're not recoilless, the recoil simply is not felt because the internal systems apply an equal and opposite reaction - is my understanding, anyway. And while a gas venting system might not be able to completely negate the recoil or the movement it imparts on you, I'd reckon that a cleverly designed one could negate any imparted angular momentum - you'd only move back, instead of spinning 'round.

I imagine that the rheological fluid system works like the TDI Kriss Vector SMG - by shifting weight around inside the weapon, the muzzle climb is counteracted. This keeps all the bullets on target (I read about a SWAT officer that actually raised the Vector at close distances to get a larger wound channel over hole-in-hole bullet placement). However, conservation of momentum is a hard, unbreakable law of physics. The weapon still pushes back in your shoulder. Something needs to move (and continue to move) in the opposite direction of the bullet, and with equal momentum, so it has to be heavy (like your shoulder) or fast. The gases just don't have enough momentum. This video of the Vector shows it nicely at 23 seconds, and the slighter built women at 3:23 too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwlFI4Fkvw The angular momentum on the shooter would be from that push back - it's of an entirely different magnitude than muzzle climb and again, I don't see the gases having enough momentum to counteract it. Perhaps with smartguns, firing with the weapon braced against your stomach would be possible.

Quote:

Quote:
I agree that wearing a gyroscopic system could keep you from spinning, and a gas jet system could negate everything.
Aye. So ideally, if you're getting into any microgravity firefights and must use a projectile weapon that is not recoil-less (such as a launcher,) at the very least you want to be wearing a gyroscopic harness. Ideally, a full EVA maneuvering pack, though burning up your fuel to counteract weapon recoil is a bad prospect unless you're indoors. Still better than not actually shooting at your enemies, of course.

Yeah. Using a gas jet system to accelerate up to walking speed and then braking again takes about the same amount of gas as killing the recoil from a full magazine from your assault rifle.