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Fighting the Hurricane

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Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Fighting the Hurricane
One of the things that seems to be endemic to the player base as well as the source material itself is how oppressively dark Eclipse Phase is. I understand that we have to establish what's at stake for the heroes, but when compared to say, a D&D manual, it balances out the darkness by then showing the amazing feats the heroes can do to fight back. "The Illithid are the unholy spawn of Chtulu and Saruman that lobotomize their prisoners and consume their brains so that they can procreate from the shell of the victim's corpse." BUT! "At level 60, the party rogue or ranger can take the title "godslayer" for their blade or bow can lay low even the lords of the astral plane." I mean, what does it say that a game that takes place in a world where many still live in cottages is more upbeat and idealistic than one of post-scarcity and widespread immortality? More to the point, why do we make it so? I understand Eclipse Phase is pretty hard sci-fi so much has to be extrapolated to it's logical conclusion, but why does that always translate into "we're screwed?" In regards to the TITANs and other X-threats, the books seem to tell every detail EXCEPT how to beat them. "The TITANs are smarter than any human ever born, transhumanity's ascension be damned." Okay, and? "The Exsurgent virus can infect flesh, software, and intelligence itself." Okay, annnnd? "Their is more for transhumanity to fear out in the blackness of the cosmos. Intelligences as inconceivable to us as a bacteria to the mind of a supercomputer!" OKAY! AND? "And what?" Well how do the player characters fight something like that? Can we breach the Singularity and fight them on equal terms? "No, Firewall won't let you." Well then what's the point? Pulling swarm cats out of trees while the Four Horsemen ride?! I mean, I guess it's supposed to leave it open so the GM and players can find their own solutions to these daunting tasks, but at least a nod to possible victory would be nice. This is supposed to be "Transhumanism: the game" shouldn't the feeling of playing it be more like Pacific Rim or Exalted? Harnessing the amazing power of the human mind and channeling it into adamantine fists forged for the purpose of punching out Yog-Sathoth!
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
And that, right there, is the
And that, right there, is the fundamental difference between Epic Fantasy and Horror. Epic Fantasy is all about epic change, gallantry, with larger-than-life heroes and villains. Horror, especially existential horror, is all about the creeping dread, the rampant paranoia, the poignant yet fruitless struggle, yet made all the more beautiful and glorious for the inability to achieve lasting change, yet somehow refusing to surrender to the darkness, but instead fighting against it, even if that fight is hopeless. That is part and parcel of what a horror setting is--it is the point of a horror setting. That you can't change anything, that ultimately, all of your efforts are pointless, fruitless and will come to naught, but we, as players, as characters, as people refuse to lay down and die. We spit in the eyes of mad gods and ancient intellects to which we are naught but a passing annoyance, and show our defiance. Not because it will change the ultimate result, but because who we are is a spirit that refuses to be broken. That is the core of heroism in a horror setting--knowing that what you do is ultimately pointless, but hoping that, maybe, just maybe, you'll survive another day, and knowing that every day of survival is a victory. But changing that, making it into Lovecraft Lite, making the game over into a setting where the heroes can change things for the better, can Return over the Threshold bearing the Elixir after having Heard The Call and Undergone Trials, would be to change the very essence of a horror game. It would be like playing Call of Cthulhu where the Great Old One's damage code is not 1d4 investigators per round. It would be like playing Ravenloft where the Dark Powers are embodied and defeatable. It would be like playing Dark Sun with access to a Decanter of Endless Water. It destroys the very point of the core aspect of the game. Now, as this is at least the second or third time you've started up a discussion along these lines, I can tell that you're dissatisfied with that aspect of Eclipse Phase, and that you really want to play a Paladin--the Holy Knight who is pure, incorruptible, and delivers an asskicking to those that deserve it most desperately. And there's nothing stopping that archetype from functioning in a horror game--but that comes with the understanding that his Holy Cause is hopeless, that all his Deeds are fragile and will be perverted against themselves, and that the Fight Against Evil can never be won fully... but, at the same time, he knows this, he accepts this, and yet he does it anyway. Not for glory, or honor or other such things, but for the ideals of Justice, Duty, Fellowship and Because It Is The Right Thing To Do. He refuses to bow down to the darkness, even though it will consume him, and that poignancy, that refusal, that recognition of sacrifice in a hopeless cause, is made all the more wonderful. I hope that that helps answer your question.

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
In a way
I just thought that aspects can be played up or down depending on the person playing it. I'm not talking about me, as a player, more as just a fan. If I were to GM a game, all the elements of the sourcebooks would be there, but with the caveat that ultimate victory is possible. I get what you're saying, better to go out in a blaze of glory than a flickering whisper, but again, if the TITANs could break the Singularity, why can't we? Who's to say we don't have our own meta intellects pulling for us and working through us as their agents? The books, to their credit, do leave the Prometheans open as a possibility for that. This isn't about me personally wanting to be some Commander Shepherd meets Zorro expy, that's just the short term HOW I wish to play the game. What I'm trying to articulate is the WHY the player characters do what they do. If I were to run a campaign, the party would be from many factions, many might not even get along with each other; but when confronted with the reality that all they know is in danger, they put aside their differences and work toward saving the world. Not just as a final "screw you" but because ultimate victory IS POSSIBLE! It's not guaranteed, but at least they'll die knowing that their foes at least feared them enough to kill them as opposed to apathetically swatting them away. The disconnect appears to be that, I don't see the horror AS the point; merely an aspect of the game. One I thoroughly detest as I hate horror as a genre in the first place. Transhumanism is the center of this game for me. It's all about becoming your own ideal of existence and elevating all of civilization along with you. I'm sure you know of Orion's Arm, well that expansive and prosperous (though far from completely safe) universe could be this setting's future. I don't want to appear ego-centric, this is me asking if anyone else feels similar. That they would prefer a game where the TITANs fall and we take their place as the Olympians did as lords of all creation.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
MAD Crab MAD Crab's picture
bibliophile20 wrote:And that,
bibliophile20 wrote:
And that, right there, is the fundamental difference between Epic Fantasy and Horror. --Snip!--
That was masterfully stated, thank you! Steel, this is a horror game at heart. You are of course free to play down that aspect, but it's right there in the tagline - "A game of post-apocalyptic transhuman conspiracy and horror." The horror is a big part of the experience for a lot of us. My first RPG ever was Call of Cthulhu, and I still love the game. Like bibliophile said, the experience is all about making horrible discoveries, knowing that you're completely fucked, and pressing onward anyway. The entire system of resleeving is really an extension of that - not only are you screwed, not only can the monster eat your party, you'll be back into the action with a character that may or may not know what just happened to kill him in no time. Again. And again. Until all the lost time crushes your psyche and you finally snap for the last time. Then maybe firewall will restore a really old backup so you can fight the threat again with youthful optimism... If you'd like to do a bit of homebrew to make the game work better as a prequel to Orion's Arm, I don't think anybody would mind. But if it seems like the story is dark... well, yeah. That's just what the game IS. You ask why we don't just do our own singularity - it's because everybody is pretty sure that it'll finish the job that the TITANS started. You want to uplift transhumanity - but we're still people, and we still fight all our stupid little fights. For all our technology, we're no better than we were before. To me these are central aspects of the game.
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Yes
I agree with Biblio's point and your's as well. The comparison to OA was that, a comparison, not meant to be taken literally. Perhaps my intentions were't clear. I was just trying to gather thoughts perhaps similar to my own with a similar issues. To use your example, throwing that same hero, with that same mindset at the horror would not end with him snapping after the thousandth or so time, but the hero triumphing at last upon the thousandth and one time. Like the sea beating against a rock, it has to give entually. It appears though, I am in a deeply stark minority.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
It is cosmic horror. We are
It is cosmic horror. We are insignificant specks in the eye analogs of alien and cosmic gods. And what is worse is that your characters won't die feeling like they made a difference. They will resleeve to discover that they failed and everything is still miserably on course for annihilation. But they must press on and keep trying.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Interpretation
So with that in mind, you don't think some people might want to change that aspect but otherwise thoroughly enjoy the setting?
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Balancing act
Actually, a fantastic example of what I think we are all trying to say can be found in "The Secret World". That game is DEEPLY dark and has almost palpable Lovecraftian overtones. However, the player characters are also charged by Gaia as her defenders and granted great magical powers in turn. Never once does the game let you forget how dangerous this world you've found yourself in is or in how much danger your and everyone's lives are, but it also arms you with the power to stop it and beating back the Elderitch Corruption actually feels like an accomplishment. That's all I want. Not galactic shootouts with Hastur, just little victories that feel like they accumulate over time.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Jet Black Jet Black's picture
Steel Accord wrote:So with
Steel Accord wrote:
So with that in mind, you don't think some people might want to change that aspect but otherwise thoroughly enjoy the setting?
Of course you can tone down the horror aspect of the setting if you don't enjoy it. Our campaign is a rather straight mix of sci-fi thriller and political conspiracy, not because we don't like horror (we do!), but because we know the genre inside out - "been there, done that". Horror is probably the most difficult genre to evoke in an RPG, especially when playing with people who know all the tropes. Luckily, EP is such a large and open setting, so you can always emphasize the elements you enjoy the most.
[i]"You're gonna carry that weight"[/i]
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
It may be my own twisted
It may be my own twisted sense of perspective or the fact i have been told i have a god complex on occasion but EP to me is a very hopeful setting. Think about it. Everything has been torn down to its Bones. The foundations of what makes us human laid bear. To me this is ultimate opportunity to redefine and rebuild ourselves as a race. To give us fresh purpose and bring us out of apathy. to remake all we stand for into something greater. Sure the threat remains but we survived and are wiser for it. on the subject of our own singularity the default answer in setting is we are not ready for it. not ready with material preparations, not ready psychologically, nor politically
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
Well, the way I see it is the
Well, the way I see it is the setting is undeniably dark... But there can be light in the little things. You may not be able to fight the titans... But you can stop a criminal group from obtain titan nanoweapons. Your character may find the world oppressing and hopeless... And fight that feeling by constantly acting peppy enough to fool himself.
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
Well, the way I see it is the
Well, the way I see it is the setting is undeniably dark... But there can be light in the little things. You may not be able to fight the titans... But you can stop a criminal group from obtain titan nanoweapons. Your character may find the world oppressing and hopeless... And fight that feeling by constantly acting peppy enough to fool himself.
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Horror
I once heard that from my old D&D manual. Creating that sense of dread can't be boiled down to dice rolls and numbers and such.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
At last!
Someone speaking my language! I would simply say that, rather than rebuilding ourselves as a race, we should rebuild ourselves as many different races. AGIs, Uplifts, different human off shoots; it's like I say in my tag line. "Transhumanity is a pantheon, exalt it." Who knows? The first person to reach the Singularity and become a god might be your best friend in your party.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
I should mention, we did hit
I should mention, we did hit the singularity. That was the TITANs. Then it promptly got infected by the exsurgent virus, likely by an alien race that views singularities as dangerous. Aiming for the singularity now is discouraged because we barely recovered after last time, and we really don't need that again.
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
If you fall off a horse . . .
Doesn't mean we can't try again. And if the ETI created the Exsurgent Virus to cripple us, what does that tell you? They are/it is afraid of us! If such a Culture level of being(s) was willing to sideline our ascension, that must mean we posed a threat to them. And I've always held that, if you have enemies at all, you're doing something right.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Or alternatively, the ETI is
Or alternatively, the ETI is so far ahead of us that seeding the galaxy with the Exsurgent virus to trap and wreck any takeoff singularities is the equivalent of putting down rat-traps so your house doesn't get rodents in the walls.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Maybe
That is one of the things they leave open to interpretation. My thought is simply that, if we must be mice, we can at least be Jerry to the ETI's Tom. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvnEBX9aedY
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Steel Accord wrote:I get what
Steel Accord wrote:
I get what you're saying, better to go out in a blaze of glory than a flickering whisper, but again, if the TITANs could break the Singularity, why can't we? Who's to say we don't have our own meta intellects pulling for us and working through us as their agents?
"for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. " People like Kurzweil, Yudkowsky, and their adherents often talk about the paradise of living in the post-Singularity, and how the Singularity will be a force of good that we should work towards. [i]Eclipse Phase[/i] draws on those themes, but also draws heavily on the traditions of post-cyberpunk and postmodern British space opera, where technologically change [i]isn't[/i] always good for society. Hence, in Eclipse Phase, the runaway self-improving seed-AIs [i]didn't[/i] become the Cornucopia-gods that provided us with paradise. Instead, they were rogue, violent, unknowable gods who killed off 95% of transhumanity. Or, at best, they [i]didn't[/i] provide us with paradise, and are kind of boring and sit around doing nothing. So hey, try for another singularity - just be aware that instead of the Kurzweilian vision, you might get [i]Accelerando[/i] or [i]Blindsight[/i], and the last time someone tried, they got the kind of Singularity with a 11.5 billion lives price-tag.
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Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Indeed
I totally understand the high cost of what happened last time. I'm just of the thinking that, if it's either another massive screw up by our own hands or total oblivion by something that wants us dead on general principle, better to try something that might work and fail than to stew in existential apathy and wait for oblivion to come. Plus, the Prometheans may already have undergone a soft takeoff of their own and are working to protect and advance us. That's just my personal interpretation though, the books kind of leave it open purposefully.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
The thing is though, there's
The thing is though, there's a lot to do besides stew in existential apathy. We are free to pursue other avenues of advancement besides the singularity, and for all the horror themes the world is largely safe. It's not like folks are tripping over TITAN relics left and right, most folks are able to pursue their lives and goals much as they normally would have. Honestly, the biggest threat to humanity I see is humanity itself. There really isn't a while lot out there that actively wants us dead. The ETIs and even the TITANs seen to be like sleeping badgers for the most part: you'll be fine so long as you don't poke it with a stick. Unfortunately, between singularity seekers and scavengers poking around potentially exsurgent infected areas, we have a lot of sticks.
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Absolutely!
I get that, and that's one of the things I love about this game. I merely say that the Singularity Seekers are just as valid an option of advancement as any other. If they become a transapient, that only means we know have a higher order of being floating in the miasma of our sphere, that was once somebody's neighbor, friend, child, parent, lover. The connections they made when they were a mere Uplift will follow them into their ascension even if they have transcended conventional emotion. If the ETI has a problem with that, then we help our friend from on High become more powerful, so they can protect themselves and us by proxy.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
My point is that the more
My point is that the more likely scenario is that we get wiped out when we get close a second time. We are still reeling from the first blow, to strike again would be suicide. Anyway, perhaps we've gotten a bit off-topic. Maybe EP is dark, if only because it doesn't say that humanity always wins. Sometimes the right thing to do is dust yourself off and try again, but other times it's to realize you bit off more than you can chew.
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Agreed, however . . .
I'm not saying we "try again" tomorrow. Just that, with the current paradigm of immortality and Extropic technological advancement, we've already breached at least one Singularity. We will try again sooner or later, it is inevitable. Perhaps a better way to say it would be that we can reach the next epoch on a better note by learning from the mistakes of the past rather than just stop trying. Then again, I'm the guy who says Icarus didn't fly high enough! XD
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Urthdigger wrote:I should
Urthdigger wrote:
I should mention, we did hit the singularity. That was the TITANs. Then it promptly got infected by the exsurgent virus, likely by an alien race that views singularities as dangerous. Aiming for the singularity now is discouraged because we barely recovered after last time, and we really don't need that again.
This is why the Singularity Seeker faction in Transhuman has a Social Stigma disadvantage.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Steel Accord wrote:Then again
Steel Accord wrote:
Then again, I'm the guy who says Icarus didn't fly high enough! XD
The story of Icarus was meant as an admonition against humans being ambitious. But really, it's a far better admonition about the limitations of wax as an adhesive, isn't it?
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Disadvantages
Then again "social stigma as a game mechanic" does leave it open to interpretation doesn't it? Not everyone has the same sensibilities, after all. Just being an Uplift is bound to get you stares and perhaps worse in a Consortium hab, but no one bats an eye at it in the Alliance. Just as much, I'm sure some Argonauts would find nothing objectionable to the Seeker's goal, Hell a few might actually want to help him!
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
Looking back at the first
Looking back at the first post, I personally don't feel that "we're screwed" is our destiny. Though, perhaps if most people feel that getting utterly smacked down just means to poke it again, it might be. Looking at the example given, I have to wonder if how dark or light a game is corresponds to how capable the party is of killing whatever they wish. I don't feel EP is consumingly dark, but I also don't feel the party needs to be able to kill gods.
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
"85-90% Futurama and 10-15%
"85-90% Futurama and 10-15% Dead Space" is how I sell Eclipse Phase, so it can be pretty crazy and light-hearted, at least until the Exsurgents show up, and the Memetic Fictional Character X-Risk starts sending suicide attacks against the Sentinels.
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
You're right
Totally agreed. Small steps and little victories can make a story idealistic and hopeful without involving the bigger aspects of the universe. Here in reality, we know the Earth will eventually be destroyed. The sun's gonna blow up in our face at SOME point. Yet we don't view the things we do here in life as any less meaningful and heroic. When confronted with the Esurgent virus and other more dangerous aspects of the verse though, wouldn't these small step heroes eventually say, "We have to do something about this."? It might not be the first step, just shrugging it off because it DOES appear impossible to resist, would certainly be an understandable reaction to even the bravest of heroes. Over time though, I can't help but feel that those who fight the good fight on the small scale would see the writing on the wall and decide they can't just sit back and do nothing about it.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Not selling
I haven't really told anyone about this game so I can't say what I would do. But if you told me that, I certainly wouldn't find that something I would wish to play. Futurama, while funny and even thought provoking, I've also found to be kind of mean spirited at times. Dead Space, on the other hand, is a series that actually broke my long held rule of never judging something by the ending alone. Plus, my way of selling it would be, "Mass Effect without the damn Council telling people they can't grow themselves a pair of wings."
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
Well, Firewall is the group
Well, Firewall is the group that does say they should do something about it. Which basically means covert missions to make sure nobody does anything stupid. You may not be able to eradicate the TITANs, but you can stop those stupid bandits just outside Elysium from opening a weapon cache full of TITAN-made grey ooze. You save several hundred people, and that's reason enough to go "hooya!" It's like a standard D&D campaign. You don't typically have one where you slay all the evil gods so nothing bad ever happens again. But you can stop the lich from using a fell artifact to devour the souls of a kingdom. For most heroes, that's enough.
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Not enough
I guess it's simply that, the one campaign I played, seemed more focused on drawing attention to the horror aspects of asyncs and the Nine Lives, and most the topics on here don't discuss such heroic escapades. So consider my view of the game being "too dark" as simply being no one on the forum is drawing attention to the good that is done. Which I guess makes sense, we don't talk about random acts of kindness, or missionaries in unstable regions of the world, because that's what we expect to happen. The whole "if it bleeds, it leads" rule applied to internal fictional properties. However, to use your analogy, a D&D campaign may very well end with the heroes slaying Orcus or marching on the Abyss. That nicely caps off the adventure because then the world of "happily ever after" is conflict free at least as far as the heroes are concerned. Your scenario may take place, but by the end, wouldn't be a breath of fresh air to have a small army of Firewall Sentinels armed with Promethean crafted weapons take the final fight to the ETI and may even sacrifice their own continuities so that all of Transhumanity can inherit the universe?
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
Most D&D games I played were
Most D&D games I played were largely unmodded 3.5, where the highest level is 20 typically. So, we didn't make a habit of killing gods. Though my weasel familiar DID claim he was a god and try to get a cult.
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
D&D
The ONLY games I played were 3.5, and while we never quite got to that level, my DM was sort of hinting that out efforts were continuously halting the aims of an abyssal being who otherwise would have destroyed the world without us doing what we did. That's beside the point though. I understand EP is not D&D (hehe try saying that aloud) but Dungeons and Dragons could be played as a horror game and even had a section and an entire book on how to do that. The subject of tone is mentioned here and there in the books, but on the whole, Firewall Proxies don't seem to have a very high opinion on what they do. To the point that, paradoxically, I'm hearing passages written by beings of all factions and nature, but they end up sounding quite similar. That would almost be poetic if it were intentional.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
That sounds about right.
That sounds about right. While it's rare for any campaign to have you go and outright fight a god, you ARE typically undermining their goals with the little goals you manage to accomplish. Stopping cultists, finding artifacts, spreading joy and peace, that kind of thing. The same applies to EP. The TITANs are meant to be that evil so far above you that proclaiming to the world "I am going to stop them!" is the epitome of hubris. However, every exsurgent stopped, every infected zone quarantined, every bastion of humankind safeguarded against the other more mundane dangers, these all help humanity survive. Heck, due to the covert nature of Firewall, the innocent people of the habitats are pretty much unaware of the dangers. To them, the world is a marvel of modern science and a testament to the tenacity of man. Things are pretty bright from their viewpoint (Well, unless you're somewhere your kind is prejudiced against. That still sucks.)
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
All well and good
That sounds about right for early to mid level, however, should it not come to pass that eventually the ETI will grow frustrated by the heroes continued thwarting? Or that someone will eventually crack the secret to a safe takeoff? (If they haven't already.) If the ETI are/is as powerful as we are lead to believe, there is no sneaking under the radar. It's all just a matter of time as to when we are considered enough of a problem to warrant direct attention. It doesn't have to be permanent, like the Terrasque, the ETI could be something that has to be continually fought or contained. Because a central theme is about being or becoming a higher order of being and breaking new barriers of existence, would it not make sense a few or more transhumans would become post-human or more? Powerful enough to challenge the gods? I guess it just comes down to GM and player expectation. As a GM, if my players wanted tragedy and ultimate futility, I would give them that. If they wanted horror . . . I can't guarantee It'd be good, but I'd try. If they wanted small scale heroics, I would certainly provide that. As a player though, I'm just not sure my expectations would be met. Which I guess is fair, I can't ask a GM and several players cater to such a specific attitude.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Urthdigger Urthdigger's picture
There's another thing to keep
There's another thing to keep in mind. The fall happened, but then outside of the occasional TITAN relic things kinda stopped. Reading through the books, I'd gotten the impression that we were specifically attacked to stop the singularity. It's entirely possible the fall happened not because we were a threat, but because a singularity causes Bad Things. In this case, the aliens are less concerned with how powerful we are becoming, so long as we don't chase the singularity again. Again I'd like to stress that I don't feel they are meant to be something the players wipe out. You'll notice of the various agenda examples listed in the book, only one of them assumes the ETI is hostile.
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
From my reading of the books.
From my reading of the books... That the Fall was ruinous to the meat-bags known as "Transhumanity" was basically entirely incidental. Mind you, this is all from "This is all just suggestions for the GM," bits of the books, but... From what was heavily implied, the TITANs started to achieve singularity, and they... Didn't care. They broke free of their masters, but they neither went on a rampage nor actively aided transhumanity. They were mostly curious, and started learning everything they could. They eventually got so smart that they started calculating "If aliens had visited the Solar System before, where would we find traces of them?" And they walked right into a trap that unleashed the exsurgent virus, which fucked with them as badly as it fucks with transhumans. They got rewritten, to what purpose is not known, and then the Fall really kicked into high gear, because the TITANs entered the fight. They slaughtered, they decapitated, they force-uploaded, they quarreled with one another on occasion, and eventually they left, after either finding or building Pandora Gates, or possibly both finding preexisting ones and building their own. Who knows? Perhaps they decided they had to go out into the galaxy and find the ETI responsible for the Exsurgent Virus. Maybe they're out to join with it. Maybe they successfully (more or less) fought off their infection and then decided in a fit of very human pique that they had to go and pick a fight with the assjacks responsible for that brainhacking, and to that end they press-ganged the vast majority of Transhumanity. Who knows?
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Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Hopeful
If that is the case, I consider it to be fantastic news. It makes our destruction seem less imminent and even gives hope the ETI may actually be benevolent, simply judging that "we aren't ready." Which I would consider to be a completely valid judgment. As a student of Kurzweil, I don't consider the Sungularity to be bad by itself, but that topic is as hotly debated in actual scientific circles as it is sci-fi ones.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Interpretational
Who knows indeed? As you said, that part of the book is ambiguous, but I think that's the point. The creators wanted to leave at least a little room for nuance in their otherwise specific vision of canon.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Stop trying to anthropomorphise the ETI.
Steel Accord wrote:
Your scenario may take place, but by the end, wouldn't be a breath of fresh air to have a small army of Firewall Sentinels armed with Promethean crafted weapons take the final fight to the ETI and may even sacrifice their own continuities so that all of Transhumanity can inherit the universe?
You could not pay me to play that kind of thing. You're not saying "Let's slay Orcus", you're saying "Lets slay the Far Plane". Even if that were a thing that made sense, and you win, what then? There's no progression, no growth. You might as well start playing something completely different, because even if you restart the setting you're still going to have the problem that any bigbad you choose is going to be a step down, unless you decide to summon robosatan. Ok, a TITAN, maybe. I could picture a campaign ending with the PCs smuggling a nuclear warhead into the shell of a TITAN Worldship orbiting the sun in a desperate attempt to destroy it before it's siphoned enough stellar material to tip Sol into a Nova. Or a final stand on an desolate Exoplanet to keep wave after wave of Xenos or Exhumans away from the gate long enough for the antimatter charges to blow. Victory should not be kicking ETI in the alien wing-wong, it should be surviving another day, thumbing your nose at an universe of infinite darkness and hunger. It should be Not Dying... with style. I'm not even a great horror fan (It's like salt - a bit makes the campaign delicious, too much causes blood pressure problems), but that doesn't mean that Space Paladins In The Space is a good idea.
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
thebluespectre thebluespectre's picture
Supplemental Reading!
For a short story with this kind of attitude, I suggest "The Gift of Mercy"… http://www.creepypasta.com/the-gift-of-mercy/
"Still and transfixed, the el/ ectric sheep are dreaming of your face..." -Talk Shows on Mute
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Rebuttal
I would like to first of all point out, I'm not trying to convince anyone that the game SHOULD be played this way, just that it COULD. I'm not trying to convince you my way is better, merely that not all players have the same expectations for a game. With that out of the way, you're right. The metaphor does kind of break down and those very things you suggested would make great campaign arcs by themselves. So I will offer an alternative solution that still carries the same idea. Imagine an AGI or even a Promethean if you want to push it, has figured out how to safely manage an exponentially accelerating take-off that would render them as powerful as a TITAN and more in time. The heroes adventures take them all over the system looking for components and resources this process needs and under constant pursuit of not only the Exsurgents but also Firewall. They ARE trying to facilitate a Singularity Seeker's success after all. At the end of their quest, the AGI/Promethean then says that the last pieces needed are the player characters themselves. They join together and ascend with their patron to become something akin to a Culture Mind. Their first action with this frightening level of power? Cure the Exsurgent Virus . . . all of it . . . everywhere. Now having reached this new epoch of existence, the ETI and Them/It must decide a new paradigm. Peaceful coexistence with Transhumanity, or a contest that will leave the universe devastated for everyone? You're right, this would change the setting irrevocably, but that's why it's perfect as an ending. It leaves what happens next to the imagination, as most theories of a Post-Singularity, Post-Human civilization do.
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
Kremlin K.O.A. Kremlin K.O.A.'s picture
Steel Accord wrote:Actually,
Steel Accord wrote:
Actually, a fantastic example of what I think we are all trying to say can be found in "The Secret World". That game is DEEPLY dark and has almost palpable Lovecraftian overtones. However, the player characters are also charged by Gaia as her defenders and granted great magical powers in turn. Never once does the game let you forget how dangerous this world you've found yourself in is or in how much danger your and everyone's lives are, but it also arms you with the power to stop it and beating back the Elderitch Corruption actually feels like an accomplishment. That's all I want. Not galactic shootouts with Hastur, just little victories that feel like they accumulate over time.
Thing is, Secret World IS a horror game. You can't save everyone. The guys in charge are assholes. The Filth is spreading everywhere. Sometimes the monster you have to kill is really an 8 year old boy who was tortured and mutated. (that mission was messed up) Hell sometimes you have to kill yourself to get the next clue. But, Steel has a Point. You have been granted power and immortality (the corpse run in an in character concept). You have been tasked with stopping the Whispering Tide of the Filth, Even if your only option is to build a dam out of your own corpses. Then coming back with fresh bodies to die again and thus build the dam higher. Sometimes your only sign of hope is as soft and fragile as a child's teddybear. Sometimes you save someone, only to find out they are infected with a zombie plague and will die soon. But then there are the days you kick a cult leader off the roof of a train and recover a dark magic WMD, before turning it over to people who will keep it safe. There are times you shoot a god in the face, after being empowered by the very land itself to protect people. There is no win forever, but there is locking the dreamers away for another few millennia. There is pushing the filth back down so deep it will be gone for centuries. There is confronting Cthulhu himself and sending the bastard back to sleep in R'lyeh, until the next time the stars are right. There is ripping an angel's black wings of its back, and beating the angel to death with them. There is reminding a little girl who she really is, and having her reject Lilith. You can't ave everyone, you can't make the world perfectly safe, and you can't destroy the filth. But you can save some, you can make the world safe enough, and you can beat the filth for now. Likewise in EP, you can't kill all the TITANS (how would you know?) You can't kill all the ETI (how would you know?) and you can't stop the heat death of the universe. But you can kill TITANspawn, you can retake Earth, and you can make them afraid.
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
HELL YEAH!
You listed some of the best reasons I love that game; apart from surprisingly good voice acting, a tone that masterfully dances between Indiana Jones, Captain Planet, and Alan Wake, and missions that actually requires you to THINK! (Makes you feel like an actual paranormal agent as opposed to just a professional monster-puncher. XD) But yeah, that's all I'm saying. The player characters aren't some racist, thalassophobic, resentful, nihilist. No they are transhumans! People who look at the darkness of the universe, the random arbitration of nature itself and say, "HA! We can do better than that!"
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
NoEther NoEther's picture
Its a horror game.
Its a horror game. It says on the cover "The Roleplaying Game of Transhumanism Conspiracy and Horror." The horror element means that PCs can never feel safe or confident that they have all the tools to win. So the reason why EP is dark is because transhumanism isn't the only genre the game designers were trying to hit. I agree with you that transhumanism doesn't have to be horrific, but EP is my favorite horror system, so I'm pretty happy that the designers made that choice.