Alkahest wrote:

And what, exactly, would be the problem of someone holding different values from me? "They are different, therefore we must kill them!" is a way of thinking I had hoped humanity could leave on the ash heap of history, where it belongs. In any case, I think people overestimate how incomprehensible exhuman values would be. They are constrained by the same reality and the same laws of logic that we are. There are a limited amount of values they can hold that aren't suicidal.

Obviously not every different value system of values is going to be hostile. But if one is then they can be horrifying to an absurd degree. Oh look - they've made off with a copy of the Glitch Simulspace data and 10000 forks of every one of those people is undergoing something we would call torture but the exhuman thinks is a good thing due to an emotion only he possess that he called 'zorgloth' at 60 times normal speed in sites throughout the oort cloud that might take months to track down and stop. And those beings with different values might simply be better than you in ways you cannot easily replicate because doing so with the same methods might twist your values too. And then before you know it they've forked themselves 5 million times, performing psychosurgery on some of them to fill every conceivable role, sent von neumann probes through the Oort Cloud and now there's a relativistic kinetic kill vehicle heading towards every major inhabited body in the Sol system at a sufficient velocity that you can't simply use a gravity tug or something to get it out of the way. And the problem is that any being modifying its mind in radical ways without ensuring their values are preserved to some degree risks becoming that. Now I'm not sure I endorse the fear of all exhumans, though some are obviously to be feared you probably can be some you can be friendly with. Hell on another forum I estimated there's a good 1/3 chance of the character in my avatar going singularity seeker/exhuman herself were she placed in the setting. But there is good reason to be cautious about them until you have established that they aren't hostile and that isn't likely to change in the fear future. I understand why people are afraid of them.

Alkahest wrote:

But it would be interesting if "mercurial" and "exhuman" were used in-setting as a euphemism and a dysphemism, respectively. Kind of like "freedom fighter" and "terrorist", expressing less the facts about the group or individual and more the speaker's attitude towards said group or individual. Imagine the political mud-slinging...

Heh. "Are you now or have you ever been a member of an Exhuman Collective?" Sounds like a good storyline to me :D

Alkahest wrote:

Rationality is not just opinion. Wanting to become more rational and actually becoming more rational is not a statistical fluke, it's the result of using the same laws of logic that apply to everyone in the universe.

Rationality may be objective, but the mind is messy and complex. To use a crude example, an exhuman may purge itself of all "irrational" bias only to find itself incapable of decision making, as it has deleted it's mechanism for distinguishing subjective value. I imagine more than one exhuman has altered it's mind to more "rationally" achieve it's goals, only to suddenly find that it's primary goal is to lay eggs in the mammalian thoracic cavity.

Alkahest wrote:

Meh, still better than what a typical politician thinks will increase my well-being. Heyo!

Ha! It's funny because it's true. :)

Alkahest, just use "they." "They" as a singular ungendered pronoun is far easier to parse, and arguably correct.

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So you say. But I see no more evidence for that than for the Jovian idea that transhumans will inevitably turn into inhuman monsters intent on the eradication of humanity.

Well... yes. To me that's kind of the point. The Jovians aren't entirely wrong - modifying your brain is dangerous.

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This kind of thinking is very human, and very problematic. Assuming that minds different from yourself are possessed by some alien form of evil and that they are intent on murder and torture and other nasty things is a behavior our species has indulged in a long time.

Maybe you're right, but you seem to go the other way. You're arguing that these people with massively modified brains (with barely understood tech at that!) should be more rational, better dressed and more polite than baseline transhumans. Why is that? Why should tweaking your brain for whatever personal goal you have end up going well? If you want pure rationality, well, that sounds like doing absolutely nothing to me. After all, nothing matters in the end. We all will die, and eventually the Sun will eat all our works in the solar system. Anything we do is just delaying the inevitable. So clearly they're not perfectly rational. At the very least they kept some of the drive to survive. And probably some other aspects of their personality that they liked. And you just don't know how or when that will shine through. As horrible as humans are, we have an instinctive knowledge of how other people act. It's built in. Exhumans violate that.

Welcome! So perhaps the real break in the argument is simply that "Exhuman" is being used to describe specifically hostile beings as opposed to the more general "Brinker."

Alright. So, the sum of the argument is "We should not attack nonhuman or formerly human intelligences until their hostility to baseline and nearbaseline humanity is established," or, alternatively, "Don't attack Frankenstein's monster until it is proven hostile." I can understand and agree with that statement, and I definitely approve of it. I just think that getting everyone in agreement to such a statement is hopelessly idealistic, given the streak of xenophobia in human nature, but definitely a goal worth striving for. However, now comes the tricky part: Define "hostile"

Erulastant wrote:

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:

I'll be damned if I use "zir" as a pronoun.

*blink* *blink* You think exhumans are dangerous because they have excised human morality but expect them to keep human* concepts of [i]gender[/i]?

I don't expect or require anybody to conform to any concept of gender. I'll just be damned if I use "zir" or "hir" or some other asinine made-up word as a pronoun. The English language has a perfectly serviceable set of pronouns, and if neither the "he" nor "she" sets suit you, you can have "they" and "it."

I disagree with the Brinker label though, as it implies anti-social. I am anti-"human" but not anti-social/community.

Brinker wrote:

You or your faction is reluctant to deal with the rest of the transhumanity and the various goings-on in the rest of the system. Your particular grouping may have sought out self-imposed isolation to pursue their own interests, or they may have been exiled for their unpopular beliefs. Or you may simply be a loner who prefers the vast emptiness of space to socializing with others. You might be a religious cultist, a primitivist, a utopian, or something altogether uninterested in transhumanity.

Characterizing trait: isolationist

Mercurial wrote:

Your faction has no interest in co-opting their true natures in order to become more “human.” You might be an AGI that does not necessarily intertwine its destiny with transhumanity or an uplift that seeks to preserve and promote non-human life (or at least your own species). You might even be an infomorph or posthuman who has strayed so far from transhuman interests and values that you now consider yourself to be forging a unique new path of life.

Closer, but lacks the drive to excel and be an example of better way to be. Ultimates are exhumans except they idolize the flat/transhuman form. So Mercurial + Ultimate = exhuman. Mercurials and Ultimates aren't spaced for their beliefs, so neither should Exhumans. If someone acts hostile or incommunicado, doesn't matter if they are in a flat, remade, or an exhuman morph, you sometimes gotta smoke them. The exhuman philosophy merely rejects clinging to any "human" notions. It is a rejection of any sort of baseline human nostalgia. If tentacles work better than arms, use tentacles. That sort of thing. All I am arguing is "kill someone for their hostility" not "kill them because they are weird and different and offend your sense of standard-transhuman-ness."

And actually that morph design sounds kind of cool! If recruited to Firewall, I would be more than happy to work with Exhumans. Takes all kinds to stem the tide of entropy.

uwtartarus wrote:

Ultimates are exhumans except they idolize the flat/transhuman form. So Mercurial + Ultimate = exhuman. Mercurials and Ultimates aren't spaced for their beliefs, so neither should Exhumans.

I [i]do[/i] consider Ultimates to be Exhumans. And would cheerfully space them all if I could.

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If someone acts hostile or incommunicado, doesn't matter if they are in a flat, remade, or an exhuman morph, you sometimes gotta smoke them. The exhuman philosophy merely rejects clinging to any "human" notions. It is a rejection of any sort of baseline human nostalgia. If tentacles work better than arms, use tentacles. That sort of thing. All I am arguing is "kill someone for their hostility" not "kill them because they are weird and different and offend your sense of standard-transhuman-ness."

Morphologically speaking, IDGARA. It's when you start tinkering with your mind that you become likely dangerous.

I can see that appeal, I would like to remove my Non-verbal learning disorder. Procrastination is something I would love to get rid of! At the same time though, some of the symptoms of my disability have contributed to how I see the world so I guess mind alteration is something I would like to "try before I buy."

Alkahest wrote:

Erulastant wrote:

(Side note to Alakhest: It's not entirely clear since we're talking about exhumans, but I think you might be misusing ze/zir/zirs? Ze/zir/zirs is not a gender-neutral pronoun set, it is a specifically non-male non-female pronoun set. Singular they is a better choice for neutral pronouns.)

English is not my mother tongue, and unlike my native Swedish I don't think it has an established gender-neutral pronoun. (Well, ours is not really "established" per se since many conservative people dislike it immensely and it's somewhat tied to political feminism, but at least we have all agreed on one gender-neutral pronoun.) I think I just picked it off a list I saw on Wikipedia. I apologize if I've been using it incorrectly.

Don't worry about it. We technically don't have a widely accepted gender-neutral pronoun either. Singular they is becoming pretty common outside of the commafuckers. Ze/xe/hir/etc. are only really well known in our own trans and feminist movements.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:

I don't expect or require anybody to conform to any concept of gender. I'll just be damned if I use "zir" or "hir" or some other asinine made-up word as a pronoun. The English language has a perfectly serviceable set of pronouns, and if neither the "he" nor "she" sets suit you, you can have "they" and "it."

Made up? Unlike the rest of the language you mean, which was handed down by God Zirself? Well, I suppose that's a real problem then. It sure would be bad to use [i]made-up[/i] words. (On top of being a generally bogus argument, it's especially bad in a thread where we're talking about Exhumans and Mercurials and AGIs and Brinkers) Words are made up all the time. Language changes. Ze/zir/zirs fills a gap in the language, as we do not otherwise have a pronoun for a person who is not male or female. (It is for objects and is already used to other and dehumanize trans people (including those whose genders are within the binary) and they is nonspecific.)

"It" is dehumanizing. That is the general consensus among people who care about the space between the false gender dichotomy. That's my understanding of that mess. I find Ze/zir and such a pain, and go with the Singular They personally. But I don't think it's worth getting bent out of shape over.

Alkahest wrote:

Anyway, howzabout we talk about exhumans again? I really like the exoglots, the weird insectoid space artists from Rimward. I think they are a good example of how groups with widely divergent mentalities can still socially interact with each other. No-one seems to understand the exoglots except the exoglots, but there's no indication that they are less than ideal neighbors. If people in-setting are unwilling to categorize them as "exhumans", I think it says more about the negative associations of that word than it says about their status as being ex-human or not.

Brinkers. That said, I wouldn't trust them. Their insularity and lack of willingness to let others see what they're up to is troublesome. For all anybody knows, they're not bug-artists at all, they're some kind of hiver set-up trying to whip up a nanoplauge derived from Exsurgent nano-infection principles to turn [i]everybody in Locus[/i] into bug-artists. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if the more militant members of the Locus community are fully prepaerd for the exoglots to burst forth in a swarm of full-on exsurgent outbreaking, and have likely prepared accordingly.

Killebrew wrote:

So, one of the things I seem to be getting from your arguments is that you don't appear to be supportive of any sort of privacy. I can honestly say I almost never communicate all of my goals and motivations. Not necessarily because they are malicious, but simply because those are my business, not anyone else's.

I'm a fan of transparancy. Not necessarily complete transparency at the personal level, but this is an organization level thing. I'd like to know what organizations are up to. It lets me offer support, or round up a posse, or just throw them a rep network bump or ding, as appropriate.

Alkahest wrote:

It was just a joke, chill.

"It was just a joke." The legendary response of everyone who's been called out for harassing or attacking someone. So no. I don't think I shall "chill," because I don't find it in the least bit amusing, so much as aggravating and infuriating.

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Ah, I see. Some of your best friends are trans! (Or at least, people you deign worthy of your attention.) It's all good, then.

No, more like people I knew in passing a while back. Nevertheless, they explained that they should be referred to with the feminine pronoun set, so that's what I used.

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I have a bunch of really juicy insults lined up in my brain, but I've decided to be the bigger man and just let you stew in your own hatred of everyone slightly different from you.

[i]Hatred?[/i] No. I don't hate anyone for merely being "different." I do, however, have no patience for them that try to force my language use to conform to their exaggerated need to stand out and draw attention to themselves and whatever they're up to.

Alkahest wrote:

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:

Brinkers.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

I've never actually seen [i]The Princess Bride[/i], so quoting it at has very little impact. Less than expressing the concept in another way would have, in fact.

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"BRINKERS Memes: Isolationism The vast reach of the solar system enables groups with their own particular ideology or agenda to establish their own isolated society far from the rest of transhumanity. Commonly referred to as brinkers, these habitats extend the gamut of the imagination. Social or political experiments, gender-based societies (or lack thereof), political extremists, religious groups, exiles, secret criminal/hypercorp operations, extended families, cults, or simply people who prefer to live in the system’s backwater areas—all are possible. Many of these are self-isolated and will refuse to interact with outsiders, while others are happy to have occasional visitors." "A sizable hive of exoglots inhabits a series of modules anchored along Locus’s Foucault Spar. They follow all of the usual customs regarding citizenship scrupulously, supplying a fair share of public atmosphere along the spar to which they’re docked and adhering to community standards regarding module architecture, production of angular momentum, clearance between modules, and the like." Living in a space-city with over one million inhabitants kind of disqualifies you for brinkerhood in my book. But I'm an Alpha Centaurian vampiric wolfkin, what do I know?

You tarred yourself with that brush, not I. Also, living in a city-state of over one million inhabitants, and yet being absolutely fanatical about interacting with those other million inhabitants as little as absolutely possible sounds an awful lot like "brinker" to me. Even by the strictly-isolationist definition.

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Yeah, you can't trust groups that keep to themselves and have an insular culture. They could be poisoning wells or baking matzos with children's blood, for all we know. Really, don't you think your paranoia is getting a bit ridiculous?

Mmmmmmmmmmh, let me think. They won't let anybody know what they're doing. They use a unique language which so far nobody has decoded. They adamantly refuse to communicate [i]at all[/i] unless it's absolutely vital. They're notable for their skill with nanomachines. And the only person who ever went into one of their habitats on an invitation refuses to speak about what she saw inside. Any one of those things, on its own, it not particularly suspicious except the refusal to communicate, which is always suspicious. All of them, together, makes me think I'd feel a lot safer with several plasma bombs stationed strategically around their modules set to go off at the first sign of any wayward nanite activity. Or at least if my hab was, in fact, a ship docked as a module, on the far side of Locus, ready to cut tethers and bail at the first sign of any kind of nanoswarm activity coming out of the Exoglot hab.