Romance

Wed, 2014-02-05 07:20

#102

otohime1978 otohime1978's picture

Well, here is a link to

Well, here is a link to scientists trying to induce homosexual behaviour in rats after the fact. http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/endo-84-6-1365 Here is one where they were trying to feminize the brains of rats in eutero. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0041008X84711604 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1241191/ http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X07001110 Most of these studies use an estrogenic compound, most typically BPA, to get these results. It's very difficult to find studies. Here are studies done on humans due to exogenous hormonal influence. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302211000252 There is more, but I have to be somewhere. Excuse me.

—

[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253

Thu, 2014-02-06 07:29

#103

nick012000 nick012000's picture

Smokeskin wrote:Lorsa wrote

Smokeskin wrote:
Lorsa wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
Still though, look at for example what happened to divorce rates when women got economically liberated. As soon as they had other options than staying, they started taking them when their marriage was worse than the alternative. And that's even though in today's world, there are still huge costs (in the wide sense, not just a narrow economic one) associated with divorce. When that initial crazy-in-love feeling is gone, and you don't just think everything about your partner is fantastic, then you start to see their flaws. That thing they do that annoy you, all the compromises you have to make when you're two non-identical people living their lives together, the arguments. Today, you don't really have any alternative except going single for a while (which sucks) followed by doing the exact same thing with someone else. But in EP, if you leave your partner, you still have your AR/VR partner(s). No arguments, no compromises, perfect sex tailored just for your desires. I think that two things could happen - either romance dies for the majority, or what you described will happen. Relationships will be a lot more open, fluid and tolerant. When people have very strong alternatives, you can't demand as much from them. You can't force them to do things your way, and neither you nor your partner will want to compromise much. So you'll do the things you enjoy with your partner(s), and the rest you'll do with other people. No more discussing if you're watching a chick flick or an action movie - you're watching them separately with friends.
The economic liberation of women that you speak of was one of the best things that happened in the 20th century. While I am sure it was a large factor in the increased divorce rates, it doesn't give the full picture.
I 100% agree it was a good thing. It gave women the option to leave - but the problems that lead to the desire to leave was there before too. You might have an easier time accepting a bad marriage if you can't leave, but it's still a bad marriage.

I'm not so sure about that. The children of single parents perform more poorly than those of married couples in basically every respect, including an increased tendency to commit crimes; if all of those parents had remained married, then it is likely that society as a whole would be better off, even if some of the people within it are somewhat less happy.

—

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

Thu, 2014-02-06 08:26

#104

Smokeskin

I'm sure you can handle some

I'm sure you can handle some sarcasm Nick ;) So yeah, we should force people to stay married, and try to fix their relationships too. Porn, it creates unrealistic expectations in men, we'd better stop that. And romantic comedies, they give women unrealistic expectations and that makes men unhappy, better ban them too. Come to think of it, that porn ban, let's align expectations instead with Porn Star Ed mandatory courses.

Thu, 2014-02-06 09:48

#105

nick012000 nick012000's picture

Smokeskin wrote:I'm sure you

Smokeskin wrote:
I'm sure you can handle some sarcasm Nick ;)

It's hard to tell sarcasm from text without smilies, because it's conveyed by tone of voice.

Quote:
So yeah, we should force people to stay married, and try to fix their relationships too. Porn, it creates unrealistic expectations in men, we'd better stop that. And romantic comedies, they give women unrealistic expectations and that makes men unhappy, better ban them too. Come to think of it, that porn ban, let's align expectations instead with Porn Star Ed mandatory courses.

Not sure if serious.

—

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

Thu, 2014-02-06 10:31

#106

Smokeskin

I'd vote for it. I might as

I'd vote for it. I might as well get some mileage out of this whole democracy thing ;) Seriously though. No one should be forced to do anything just because it is "for the greater good". I mean, not letting women leave an unhappy marriage, who would support that?

Thu, 2014-02-06 10:57

#107

thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture

nick012000 wrote:

nick012000 wrote:
I'm not so sure about that. The children of single parents perform more poorly than those of married couples in basically every respect, including an increased tendency to commit crimes; if all of those parents had remained married, then it is likely that society as a whole would be better off, even if some of the people within it are somewhat less happy.

I am having an idea that families that break up but remain on good terms might get better results than families where the parents can’t be in the same room without having a screaming match. Parents are key role models and having them slagging each other off at every opportunity can’t be good. I wonder is there have been any studies on outcomes for children of different styles of broken homes. 2 parent households with different styles of parental interaction (finding volunteers for that study who answer the questions honestly will be a task).

Thu, 2014-02-06 11:13

#108

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture

If I may,

Both of my parents met in high school and are still happily married today. I'm not going to say I'm an angel, but anyone who knows me from this site can tell you that I'm somewhat predisposed to think of honesty and idealism. My brothers on the other hand, are both two of the nicest and most loving people you'll ever meet. To contrast, my best friend's father died when we were in grade school and his mother was emotionally abusive. His older sister got involved with the wrong crowd and eventually ran away from home. He didn't fair much better, experimenting with drugs and also being less wise with his choice of company. He's doing better now, better job, happy relationship, and he's old enough that his mother doesn't control him. I know death isn't the same as divorce, but you can understand why I would compare and contrast the situations. Forcing people to stay married though? No. That is not something I would wish at all. I wish people would be more mature and think in the long term a bit more before making such a commitment, and understanding that when kids enter the picture, you must make sacrifices for their sake. That's something no government, or lack of, has any right in mandating though. It's a societal problem, but it's up to individuals to solve it, just by the practice of commitment alone.

—

Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Thu, 2014-02-06 15:27

#109

Smokeskin

thezombiekat wrote:

thezombiekat wrote:
I am having an idea that families that break up but remain on good terms might get better results than families where the parents can’t be in the same room without having a screaming match. Parents are key role models and having them slagging each other off at every opportunity can’t be good. I wonder is there have been any studies on outcomes for children of different styles of broken homes. 2 parent households with different styles of parental interaction (finding volunteers for that study who answer the questions honestly will be a task).

If Freakonomics is trustworthy, divorce doesn't correlate with school test scores at least. And I'd expect that most types of dysfunctional behavior and depression would influence test scores. I'm sure it is an incredibly sad experience for children, and even harder if the parents are fighting, but statistically they seem able to cope well enough that it doesn't affect their life substantially.

Thu, 2014-02-06 16:31

#110

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture

IIRC, there's more

IIRC, there's more correlation between parenting style and childhood performance than between parental marriage status and child performance. Authoritative is the clear winner, with children being higher performing across the board, while authoritarian and both flavors of permissive having various classifications of problems. This is, of course, before we get into sub-classifications. *shudder* Helicopter parents. I work for a few and, well, oh boooooy. I imagine that muses would have to be very carefully programmed to avoid falling into that trap (aiming more towards styles where they help the kid, but force them to solve their own problems rather than let the muse handle everything)

—

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Thu, 2014-02-06 16:50

#111

Smokeskin

bibliophile20 wrote:

bibliophile20 wrote:
*shudder* Helicopter parents. I work for a few and, well, oh boooooy. I imagine that muses would have to be very carefully programmed to avoid falling into that trap (aiming more towards styles where they help the kid, but force them to solve their own problems rather than let the muse handle everything)

Some of those helicopter mom types actually "ratted me out" to my wife that when I delivered our son in kindergarten I was "really lazy" because I was making him take off his shoes, unpack and put his lunchbox and fruit where they needed to go himself. Duh, of course he'd like me to do everything for him, but he was 4 and could easily do and should do those things, and it actually takes longer to have him do it all.

Thu, 2014-02-06 16:59

#112

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture

Smokeskin wrote:Some of those

Smokeskin wrote:
Some of those helicopter mom types actually "ratted me out" to my wife that when I delivered our son in kindergarten I was "really lazy" because I was making him take off his shoes, unpack and put his lunchbox and fruit where they needed to go himself. Duh, of course he'd like me to do everything for him, but he was 4 and could easily do and should do those things, and it actually takes longer to have him do it all.

*headdesk* *headdesk* Oy. Next up in child fashion, a bubble-wrap suit of clothing to protect them from ever getting hurt, and a robot exoskeleton that will let them live without ever needing to move a muscle.

—

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Thu, 2014-02-06 17:12

#113

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture

I'm actually a little more inclined,

I'm actually a little more inclined to agree with the book lover on this one. Better to let your child slip and fall and be there with a band aid and a hug than prevent them from falling in the first place. You want to protect your children but you don't want to keep the world from them. Just look at Finding Nemo, perfect example! Actually that brings up another issue in the setting. What's parenting like in Eclipse Phase? Again, I understand different habs have different customs but how would Extropian parenting differ from say (free) Martian parenting?

—

Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Thu, 2014-02-06 17:31

#114

Smokeskin

bibliophile20 wrote:

bibliophile20 wrote:
*headdesk* *headdesk* Oy. Next up in child fashion, a bubble-wrap suit of clothing to protect them from ever getting hurt, and a robot exoskeleton that will let them live without ever needing to move a muscle.

I know someone who would buy that. Their daughter, when she was in the cruising age (do you call it that too, where they can't walk on their own but walk supported by furniture?) they NEVER let her stand or walk on her own. They'd always be next to her, or her mom carried her in a sling. All the time, it was crazy. Last spring (she was 4) she tried our outdoor trampoline, took two jumpsteps in and fell down and said she'd hurt her leg. She's not great motorically and very insecure about such things so I thought she was faking it, but nope, broken leg and six weeks in a cast and wheelchair. I'm not sure what lesson the parents took home from that.

Fri, 2014-02-14 16:21

#115

consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture

Steel Accord wrote:What's

Steel Accord wrote:
What's parenting like in Eclipse Phase? Again, I understand different habs have different customs but how would Extropian parenting differ from say (free) Martian parenting?

I think about the difference in parenting between different sets of parents just all on the same block I grew up on was pretty diverse, so I wouldn't be too surprised to find out that some authoritarian parents (who are otherwise egalitarian anarchists who help out their community) exist within anarchist communal habs just as I'm sure you'd find some compassionate parents who raise their kids like golden community paragons in the most oppressive and fearful Jovian neighbourhoods (or the most decadent and asocial hypercorp elite enclaves). Even the Jovians are hardly monolithic, since some people are there because of fears about security/safety but who don't necessarily align with neoneoconservative politics. That said, I think the trends for how kids are raised would probably in part be to ready kids for the realities the parents assume their kids are going to face, same as any era. Those assumptions can be inferred from the culture you're in, which just using Mars as an example, would vary widely from the Barsoomian indentures and ex-indentures across to Olympian hyperelite thrillseeker parents, and each city on Mars even has its own flavour that I feel would influence parenting trends in different directions. And let's not forget that the majority cultural inheritance for a particular city, settlement, hab, scum swarm or what have you could have big impacts even on the people not from those cultures. Think about infugees to Luna who manage to get sleeved in clanks, both from Poland...depending on the personalities, hopes and fears of the parents, they might pool their money not to get biomorphs but to access a genebank and the services of a genehacker to put together a child in an exowomb out of Polish mtDNA and Y haplogroups (or even family genetic history if that survived the Fall better than their Flats), but what if instead they decide to grab genedata from Chinese and Indian haplogroups, so their kid fits in better? All kinds of stuff to consider!

Mon, 2014-02-24 06:58

#116

UnitOmega

Steel Accord wrote:

Steel Accord wrote:
Actually that brings up another issue in the setting. What's parenting like in Eclipse Phase? Again, I understand different habs have different customs but how would Extropian parenting differ from say (free) Martian parenting?

Well, first and foremost, the thing to consider is that with biomorph children, nearly everywhere in the system, the exowomb is available and thus probably used. Even in the Jovian Republic is this possible. And why not? Why should you lower economic productivity or personal productivity to watch out for some fetus who won't be contributing in society for a while? So, this may alter biological and psychological dynamics for the parent(s), but this of course, as with all things, can be tailored with drugs, mods or psychosurgery. It's noted somewhere that children aren't super common now, I believe. At least in AF 10. Birth rates are probably best in Jovian Republic, because of sociocultural pressures. Other places you have some issues bringing new life into this screwy world. In the inner system, you don't own your own genome, usually, even if you've paid off your body. This means that lower or middle class members of the PC will still have to dance around their EULAs to produce a kid, assuming they don't have access to their original genome(s). And then you have to deal with the issue of the PC loving to bump your kid from a flat to a splicer, just so long as everyone pays the fees. Meanwhile, oligarchs can much more easily afford children, but probably lack a lot of drive to do so these days. You'll live forever, so why make an heir? In Autonomist lands, in addition to lowered space and resources (especially given the fact that the kid will consume community resources without being able to do much to give back for a while), they also probably lack a lot of drive to have children in the direct sense. For those that find it socially acceptable, people with the inclination for nurture and parenting probably turn to specialized AGI/AI they can help grow and socialize, without needing to concern with the timeframe of normal transhuman, and also less resource drain. If you have the ability and the inclination after you help an AGI develop into person which hopefully has some use to your society, then you might switch to actual full-blown bio-children (Synth children pose a whole slew of other logistical and developmental problems). And nothing's really stopping you from going crazy and being a truly single parent, or mixing gene input from a whole slew of people, or buying (or stealing) a couple of your favorite celebrity/historical figure genomes to throw into the mix. Who wouldn't want a kid with a killer Bruce Campbell chin? But, still a lot of time-scale problems here. When you can accelerate tasks in simulspace, switch your own sex in a day, and can put lasers inside your hands in a couple of hours, the 16+ (EP probably being the kind of setting where you can reach a point where a new ego can look after itself mentally, emotionally and economically earlier than we tend to feel they can now) years you need to invest to properly get your "investment" in a kid is still daunting. And with the Lost fiasco very clear in the recent public memory, shortcuts are probably not encouraged. Doesn't mean some people, especially those wily ancient immortal oligarchs, don't try and cut corners.

—

H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Mon, 2014-02-24 13:04

#117

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture

Experimentation

You don't think two people (or more) might want to try, at least once during their endless lives, to bring a little ego into the world the old fashioned way? I know I would want to were I to (ideally) live in an Extropian habitat with my (theoretical) wife. And if she didn't want to go through the actual process, I might even be persuaded to switch places with her and bare the child myself! (Take that down on record, because that's one of the few times you'll hear me say it. XD) I can kind of see where you are coming from though, I know I certainly would want to bring my child into the world at a bad time, and as immortals, parents have the responsibility of evaluating when, if anytime is good enough.

—

Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Mon, 2014-02-24 16:52

#118

UnitOmega

Steel Accord wrote:You don't

Steel Accord wrote:
You don't think two people (or more) might want to try, at least once during their endless lives, to bring a little ego into the world the old fashioned way?

Well, they might, but quite frankly, as much as transhumans are relatively similar to us in psychology, physiologically, they have a whole set of issues which impede natural pregnancy. What if you have to egocast somewhere on business, and the only way you can afford a decent morph rental there is to rent the body you normally use? If you're in a polity that doesn't approve of certain levels of forking, you may be in for trouble even if you decide to take the hit and go in a synth or pod. Some ego will need to mind the pregnant body. What if all the parents involved have certain mods which may not be great for the new morph to develop physically? (I'm thinking Fetal Neurachem Syndrome) Do you have a morph available which has been properly tailored to handle micrograv pregnancy? And of course, while I wouldn't put it past the PC to allow morphs to biologically reproduce so they can slap the parents/kids with licensing fees, lawsuits or GSP mandates, it's probably way easier for their legal department to just require agreements signed before hand and possibly modified when you want to handle the reproduction part. Plus, the time thing. Raising the kid will take long enough, and I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the exowomb will cut down the gestation time so that you can achieve a kid of roughly 9 mo development in less actual time. Basically, do some people try it? Yeah. There are all kinds of neoprimitivist clades, and possibly religious or bioconservative brinker settlements, who may require it. But broadly, there's a dimension of complexity added to the issue of "natural" pregnancy in the Transhuman future, which is easily sidestepped by technology. So your average transhuman couple (or solo, trio, quartet or entire hab) will likely use science to promote convenience, and go for the exowomb. If you're rich, and want the kid to have the "natural pregnancy experience", I'm sure you could put the womb system in an Ayah pod with a lovely surrogate AI to watch it for you. But none of this really answers or theorizes about actual parenting. I'm not sure I'm equipped to speculate, but I'm sure there are some interesting issues to discuss on that front. Like how most children would be basically zeroes until they're old enough for mesh inserts and a Muse (which I'm sure would be a fairly debated topic). I'm feeling like many will probably turn to holograms, followed by ectos with proto-muse nanny AIs. Alternatively, there may be massive throwbacks of big, shiny touch-screen tools for younger children. And oligarchs and gerontocrats probably employ fireteams of Ayah pods with hybrid security/nanny AIs and hand lasers and skin pockets to hide their monofilament swords. But I'll throw something else out there for the debate. When should the prospective new child get their first backup? Their first stack?

—

H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Mon, 2014-02-24 18:59

#119

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture

Problem

That is a tough one. Just as it was mentioned earlier, I think it would vary between hab to hab just as much as it would vary between parents. Some Jovian and Extropian parents might raise the child themselves, more or less how we do now. Anarchists might have a Brave New World setup where all the children are raised in groups. And as fascist as the upper echelons of the Consortium are, I find it very had to believe not ONE of them wouldn't want to raise their child with love and affection. As for their inserts and stack, I guess they would get them early if their guardians felt they needed them. Like an infant, who's just begun life and can't comprehend much, probably doesn't need either right away. An adventurous eight year old might though.

—

Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Mon, 2014-02-24 21:59

#120

UnitOmega

I should clarify, I was

I should clarify, I was thinking more of how to entertain and educate a child who lacks the ability to AR or VR interface, than direct child interaction. Of course, almost any parent who goes to investing the time and effort, given the dilemmas in this setting raised earlier, will want to spend time with the child, and all that. But there's a point where playing peek-a-boo is no longer viable, and people who have the resources to have and raise children may have other responsibilities. So what do you do with the kid? Holograms are probably the obvious solution, both for traditional audiovisual media and some fun pastimes, like a highly sophisticated version of entertaining a cat with a laser pointer. Physical distractions and toys might be harder to manage, especially in a New Economy or otherwise resource limited situation (You'd need some decent rep to swing a teddy bear into the fab queue ahead of air filters, AR spimes and hull repair patches), but for people with heavy resources, or in more traditionalist/conservative blocs (LLA and Jovians spring to mind, natch) it's probably more common. Tactile feed back is important but can't be simulated without mesh inserts. At a certain age, you can equip the kid with his/her first ecto and AR glasses, but that might be at the speaking and possibly reading levels. And personally, in my mind (and it may have been said in a book somewhere, I don't know) I've always kind of held ~8 as maybe a good range for a kid to switch from ectos and "desks" to mesh inserts and muses. Depending on how cautious/paranoid/etc the parents are, regular ego backups probably start around the time the child can start wandering around under his/her own power, but having a full-blown stack may wait until later.

—

H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Tue, 2014-02-25 13:22

#121

consumerdestroyer consumerdestroyer's picture

I imagine a lot of people

I imagine a lot of people have it in their heads that a backup is just the same as the original by the time the person is a fully formed adult making their own choices, but like, literal lost childhood memories that they know their kid can't get back because of the gap between backups? How many parents might feel haunted that the gap held some lesson their kid should have learned, maybe something they themselves didn't witness their kid learn, a rupture in the process of growing up that the backup might not learn the same way? Especially if the backups were infrequent, like months apart or more. A lot gets learned in short amounts of time during the developmental years. What if you can't remember which things you've admonished/praised your kid about at what times? Parenting is hectic enough [i]now[/i], what about in the future when you'll have to remember specifics and repeat lessons to a backup? I imagine there are inner system psychosurgeons who make good money excising the guilt and stress of parents who've had to resleeve their progeny from backup before the kid was even a teenager.

Pages