Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Extropian politics

13 posts / 0 new

Last post

Tue, 2014-01-28 23:15

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture

Extropian politics

Now I understand that Extropians within the setting are very Libertarian, or at least welcome the idea of it. "Anarcho-Capitalists" being used to describe them more than once. Now, as an actual Anarcho-Capitalist, who is also an actual transhumanist; I must ask, is that really the term I should describe myself as? I've looked up actual Extropianism and it seems more akin to socialist memes than Libertarian ones. Am I just reading them wrong? If I'm not than IS there a school of thought that mixes Anarcho-Capitalism with Transhumanism?

—

Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Wed, 2014-01-29 09:35

Smokeskin

Most actual extropians are

Most actual extropians are (or perhaps rather were, I'm not sure how many still use the term) anarcho-capitalists or close to it from what I know (and some of the prominent extropians are even hardcore social darwinists to boot, while many anarcho-capitalists are in it exactly because of the benefits for the underprivileged). I see no problem with being both anarcho-capitalist* and transhumanist - that's how I define myself too. Where have you seen that extropians are socialist?

Wed, 2014-01-29 16:31

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture

Max Moore

Smokeskin wrote:
Most actual extropians are (or perhaps rather were, I'm not sure how many still use the term) anarcho-capitalists or close to it from what I know (and some of the prominent extropians are even hardcore social darwinists to boot, while many anarcho-capitalists are in it exactly because of the benefits for the underprivileged). I see no problem with being both anarcho-capitalist* and transhumanist - that's how I define myself too. Where have you seen that extropians are socialist?

Just that apparently the movement's very founder did a complete 180 on his economic politics. It's good to know that I'm in the same boat as most extropians.

—

Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Wed, 2014-01-29 17:30

Smokeskin

Hmm, didn't know that.

Hmm, didn't know that. What happened, the financial crisis wiped him out and he got bitter?

Wed, 2014-01-29 20:03

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture

That's just the thing

Smokeskin wrote:
Hmm, didn't know that. What happened, the financial crisis wiped him out and he got bitter?

I have no clue.

—

Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Tue, 2014-02-04 15:59

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

That founders change their

That founders change their minds does not mean the movement agree with them. Marx was not a Marxist, after all. Way back when I joined the extropians in the mid-90s the majority had clear libertarian leanings. We were talking privately produced law and all the usual stuff besides nanofacturing and space colonization on the mailing list. People certainly had a spread of views (some of the discussions were pretty hot), but I think one could describe the median as "the Californian ideology" of free markets, free minds, let people invent and change as they want. Over time what changed was that the movement diffused into a more general transhumanist movement where not everybody agreed that self organisation and spontaneous orders were the a priori most likely to succeed approaches to many important problems. There was also plenty of attempts of defining a broader transhumanism that didn't get bogged down in political debate, and that led to somewhat more watered down principles. Including some claims that extropianism was never libertarian: technically true, but if one reads the Extropian Principles it is pretty clear that they (and us who subscribe to them) draw rather heavily on Hayek and Friedman. I don't know which founder is supposed to have done a 180. Some of the oldtimers have nuanced their views as they get older. As for myself, I regard myself as being a Bayesian libertarian: my prior is that self-organisation and freedom is the best solution to any problem, and then I update my probability estimates based on the evidence I find.

—

Tue, 2014-02-04 17:19

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture

My hero

You and Smoke sound like guys who really have all this figured out. And are both gentlemen to boot. When you picture Extropia proper, what do you see? As in, kinds of morphs, types of services, architecture etc. Me, seeing as it's zero g, those who didn't want to invest in flying or otherwise zero g adapted forms, would wear gravity shoes. The structures, being free of even gravity would probably resemble something built by Frank Lloyd Wright and being green lit by Howard Roark. XD

—

Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Tue, 2014-02-04 18:33

Smokeskin

Steel, thanks for the kind

Steel, thanks for the kind words, but Arena is the real deal. I'm just some caveman-geek hybrid with an interest in these things, while he's doing actual work at the forefront of transhumanism research and politics. Check out his EP page on http://www.aleph.se/EclipsePhase/ and his blog for real world transhumanism (and other) stuff: http://www.aleph.se/andart/

Wed, 2014-02-05 01:38

puke

who with the what now?

Arenamontanus wrote:
"the Californian ideology" of free markets, free minds, let people invent and change as they want.

That sounds pretty keen, but I'm guessing that whomever came up with the name wasn't actually from California.

Wed, 2014-02-05 03:10

#10

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

puke wrote:Arenamontanus

puke wrote:
Arenamontanus wrote:
"the Californian ideology" of free markets, free minds, let people invent and change as they want.
That sounds pretty keen, but I'm guessing that whomever came up with the name wasn't actually from California.

Indeed. Richard Barbrook and Andy Cameron are two British media theorists.

—

Wed, 2014-02-05 03:18

#11

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Steel Accord wrote:You and

Steel Accord wrote:
You and Smoke sound like guys who really have all this figured out. And are both gentlemen to boot.

Thank you! Of course, the "figuring things out" part still might need some work...

Quote:
When you picture Extropia proper, what do you see? As in, kinds of morphs, types of services, architecture etc. Me, seeing as it's zero g, those who didn't want to invest in flying or otherwise zero g adapted forms, would wear gravity shoes. The structures, being free of even gravity would probably resemble something built by Frank Lloyd Wright and being green lit by Howard Roark. XD

In my mind the sheer diversity is dominant. Yes, there are some going for zero-G modernism, but they are right beside the goth hutong-revivalists (mutualists with a flair for nonironic kung-fu horror... very quaint these days) and some singularity seekers trying to do everything in black and clear diamond. Same thing with morphs: swarmanoids and snakebots are so *yesterturn*, what about experimental bioswarms or hollow bodies? And right in the middle some people who don't give a damn and just use an off-the-shelf model because they got more important things to do. And those really weird AGI communities that live in noneuclidian simspaces based on alternative theories of economy, and for some reason try to promote their geometry as ideologically better than boring 3+1D Lorenzian manifolds?

—

Wed, 2014-02-05 05:22

#12

thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture

Steel Accord wrote:Now I

Steel Accord wrote:
Now I understand that Extropians within the setting are very Libertarian, or at least welcome the idea of it. "Anarcho-Capitalists" being used to describe them more than once.

within EP there are actually 2 camps within the Extropians Anarcho-Capitalists and Mutualist. the extroppian background implies they are very similar but when you read the fuller descriptions (that i cannot now find) the differences are quite significant.

Wed, 2014-02-05 09:18

#13

Smokeskin

As I understand it, the main

As I understand it, the main difference is that mutualists are against private profits, private investments and private property rights. If you run a company, you're only supposed to make a fair pay for your work and nothing more. Investments and investment risk is handled through a sort of central bank. You can't own your house or stuff, you only have the right to them as long as you use them. It's like ancap with some anarcho-communism mixed in.