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Romance

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Fri, 2014-01-24 06:25
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
I see a huge number of people
I see a huge number of people getting sexually involved with their muses (or a muse-like AI). And I'm sure there are a million articles on the newsnets about 'is romance dead?' After all, you have a choice between a flawed and broken person, still bearing scars of psychological trauma from a decade ago, who flirts with other people, sometimes looks dumpy, doesn't always care about your feelings, hurts you regularly, and otherwise is their own person. Or you have a perfect companion who has been with you from childhood; who really understands you, who cares about you, protects you from the world, who is always at their best, always eager for your attention, and their looks hit ALL of your buttons. Which do you choose? However, marriage or couplings for other social or political gains are probably very common.
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Fri, 2014-01-24 07:00
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
wood they really be
wood they really be romantically compatible. excessive infatuation with a muse would likely lead to a withdrawal from society and hampered development of interpersonal skills, especially in a young person. there for muses are probably programed to get themselves friend zoned and stay that way. while not even being a good enough friend that you are unmotivated to make others. ideally they should be like your mother the librarian. they will always be there when you need support, they can get you any information you need. but they are not as much fun as your friends. some times the muse will go along with it in the short term as a confidence building exercise. and some times people will hack there own muse so it will let the two of them live in a privet sim space together, and make like bunnies for ever and ever and never come out.
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Fri, 2014-01-24 10:53
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
But
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
I see a huge number of people getting sexually involved with their muses (or a muse-like AI). And I'm sure there are a million articles on the newsnets about 'is romance dead?' After all, you have a choice between a flawed and broken person, still bearing scars of psychological trauma from a decade ago, who flirts with other people, sometimes looks dumpy, doesn't always care about your feelings, hurts you regularly, and otherwise is their own person. Or you have a perfect companion who has been with you from childhood; who really understands you, who cares about you, protects you from the world, who is always at their best, always eager for your attention, and their looks hit ALL of your buttons. Which do you choose? However, marriage or couplings for other social or political gains are probably very common.
But my muse is a guy. And a baby dragon at that. No offense Spike, but you're just not my type. XD
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Fri, 2014-01-24 10:58
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
I can see that
thezombiekat wrote:
wood they really be romantically compatible. excessive infatuation with a muse would likely lead to a withdrawal from society and hampered development of interpersonal skills, especially in a young person. there for muses are probably programed to get themselves friend zoned and stay that way. while not even being a good enough friend that you are unmotivated to make others. ideally they should be like your mother the librarian. they will always be there when you need support, they can get you any information you need. but they are not as much fun as your friends. some times the muse will go along with it in the short term as a confidence building exercise. and some times people will hack there own muse so it will let the two of them live in a privet sim space together, and make like bunnies for ever and ever and never come out.
But I also believe a muse can be your friend. There are many different kinds of friends. A friend you know from childhood is going to act and be seen differently than a friend you made later in life. Plus Spike acts in the capacity of "little brother and #1 assistant" for me. So, as far as I can tell, I think one's relationship with their muse can be entirely self defined. Be it strictly professional, pet, friend, lover, parent, etc. However I do agree with you that secluding yourself from the world would be bad in concept, but then again, don't brinkers do exactly that?
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Fri, 2014-01-24 12:25
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
The way you'd design your
The way you'd design your virtual sex doll, having that to help with everything else in your life - it could be a little distracting...
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Fri, 2014-01-24 14:16
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
muse-schtupping
Yeah, Marc is probably right on this one. Much as I like to think people would prefer a fully sentient generalized intelligence as a romantic partner, one should never underestimate people's tendency to follow the path of least resistance.
—
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
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Fri, 2014-01-24 14:41
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Not real
jackgraham wrote:
Yeah, Marc is probably right on this one. Much as I like to think people would prefer a fully sentient generalized intelligence as a romantic partner, one should never underestimate people's tendency to follow the path of least resistance.
Well for me, dating an AGI would actually be pretty cool. Especially of I could persuade her to exist in a ghost rider module. That way we'd never be apart. <3 At the same time, it wouldn't be the same with a muse, because somewhere in the back of my mind, I'd know it wasn't real. Maybe I'd fall to weakness, but such a delusional dalliance would not satisfy me for a decade, let alone eternity.
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Fri, 2014-01-24 18:12
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
jackgraham wrote:Yeah, Marc
jackgraham wrote:
Yeah, Marc is probably right on this one. Much as I like to think people would prefer a fully sentient generalized intelligence as a romantic partner, one should never underestimate people's tendency to follow the path of least resistance.
I'd think that 'playing' with your muse in that manner would likely be akin to masturbation, not really schtupping. On the other hand, given how folks wank and schlick and whatever else today, I imagine it wouldn't be remotely uncommon, depending on the avatar of the muse, that is. Muses may not be full AGI, but since they're long-lived AIs specialized in interpersonal interactions, they'd develop a distinct personality of their own, probably based off the avatar they picked. Changing a muse's avatar would be a pretty [i]drastic[/i] change, I'd say. So a muse who was picked as the avatar of the Most Awesome Action Hero Ever by a little boy who grew up to be disinterested in men probably would [i]not[/i] be used that way, even if the Most Awesome Action Hero Ever's particular looks were done away with or heavily modified years ago as the muse and owner both developed and decided that said Most Awesome Action Hero Ever was actually kind of lame, or that something was better. Plus, there is that thing where most people's brains automatically discount those they actually grew up with as sexual partners, even if without that context of actually growing up with them, they'd be hitting [i]all[/i] of a person's interest checks. I'm not sure how much of that would change with resleeving or if it'd stick, imprinted with the ego, and that might vary based on person-to-person. Either way, I imagine muse-schtupping would be more common with those who picked a muse later in life (like, their teens or later,) and probably said "fuck it, nobody but me is ever going to see it, I'm just going to make it as hot as I can, because if I have to look at an avatar all day, it's gonna be a sexy one." (IE, the way most straight men who play female characters in MMORPGs tend to pick avatars.) Or if they got a new muse... Which actually makes me wonder; can more than one muse run at a time? Is there anything preventing you from having more than one active? And, how hard would it be to upgrade a muse's codebase from Muse to full-fledged AGI, while keeping their personality and memories and what-not intact? I'm sure lots of people who find themselves sexually infatuated with their muse would try that, and probably as often as not it would end in tears.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
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Sat, 2014-01-25 03:52
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
Steel Accord wrote:
Steel Accord wrote:
But I also believe a muse can be your friend. There are many different kinds of friends. A friend you know from childhood is going to act and be seen differently than a friend you made later in life. Plus Spike acts in the capacity of "little brother and #1 assistant" for me. So, as far as I can tell, I think one's relationship with their muse can be entirely self defined. Be it strictly professional, pet, friend, lover, parent, etc.
it would defiantly be more than a mere assistant. being a close friend, even as close as a brother would be normal. i was thinking it would avoid the unique positions. best friend, monogamous lover if a mere AI takes these positions you are locked out of the fulfillment of having a fully sapient person to share your life with in that way.
Quote:
However I do agree with you that secluding yourself from the world would be bad in concept, but then again, don't brinkers do exactly that?
brinkers usually isolate there culture, they do however take a community with them. there are of cause exceptions but i expect exceptions on the muse relationships as well.
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Which actually makes me wonder; can more than one muse run at a time? Is there anything preventing you from having more than one active?
There is only enough runtime in your mesh inserts to support one AI. If you want multiple muses your going to need to cay an ecto or otherwise have somewhere for it to run.
Quote:
And, how hard would it be to upgrade a muse's codebase from Muse to full-fledged AGI, while keeping their personality and memories and what-not intact? I'm sure lots of people who find themselves sexually infatuated with their muse would try that, and probably as often as not it would end in tears.
I believe it can be done. It was a suggested backstory for an AGI character. It would be a major undertaking however and it will change the personality at least a bit. For one thing a true AGI doesn’t have compulsory loyalty to you.
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Sat, 2014-01-25 08:10
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
thezombiekat wrote:It would
thezombiekat wrote:
It would defiantly be more than a mere assistant. Being a close friend, even as close as a brother would be normal. I was thinking it would avoid the unique positions; Best friend, monogamous lover - if a mere AI takes these positions you are locked out of the fulfillment of having a fully sapient person to share your life with in that way.
Acknowledge your cognitive bias - you're assuming that "unique positions" in someone's social and personal life exists, or that they are desirable, or that having a sapient person instead of something that fully understands the user and is designed to be absolutely invested in them occupy those positions is a [i]bad[/i] thing. Not everyone would see it that way. Some people are likely to have crippling interpersonal interaction issues that likely would not apply to their muse, being, well, their muse. Some people might find the idea of dealing with other transhumans on that level [i]bothersome[/i] - why would you want to even try to find a "one true love," when the only person you can truly have a practical reason to believe [i]will[/i] be with you until the day your last fork processes its last thought is already there, closer than arm's reach? Sure, an AI may not be fully sapient, but as far as its owner is concerned it probably is. Muses may not be full AGIs, but they are AIs which are [i]hyper-specialized[/i] for interpersonal interaction with this [i]one person[/i]. Some might consider the fact that the muse doesn't really have its own goals or desires a plus. After all, if you're very risk-averse and your lover decides to go and do a stupid thing like join Firewall or take up Gatecrashing, that's going to lead to friction. And what happens if he or she or it winds up indentured or something? Or their taste in music takes a turn for that which you consider to be several circles of hell worse than the incarnated agglomeration of every Satan-like figure of every mythology screeching his/her/its fingernails on a chalkboard. Or what if you find that the "fully sapient person" you really, [i]really[/i] want to be close to/spend your life with/bump uglies with just doesn't like you? Or worse, they like you, they just don't want to spend any time living with you/kissing you/bumping uglies with you. That shit hurts like a knife to the heart, dude, especially if you're fantastically awkward already and mustering up the courage to even broach the topic with them took an act of heroic willpower on your part. So why would a lot of people want to bother with that when (to them) fulfilling sexual and emotional contact is just a quiet night in simulspace away? Sure, there's porn XP for when you feel like experimenting with new stuff, but who understands you better than your muse? Only your psychosurgeon, and only if you're lucky enough to get a [i]good[/i] one. And really, if you're the Muse, think about it... Your primary concern is making sure your tranhuman is taking care of themselves and (when that's done,) happy. If you have a socially-awkward transhuman, do you [i]really[/i] think it's better for them to have them experiencing an unending cavalcade of heartbreak and misery at the sharpened, honeyed tongues of other transhumans as they clumsily attempt to initiate romantic and sexual contact and [i]epically[/i] fail, when you can be fulfilling those needs yourself? So I [i]highly[/i] doubt that most muses will refuse such advances, [i]especially[/i] if their transhuman is clearly struggling to make those connections with other sapients. Plus, a muse wouldn't get jealous if you [i]do[/i] manage to find someone else. Some transhumans might, but a muse won't. Hopefully. If they do, you may need to find out if they're starting to develop their own agenda, because they may be taking the steps to advance from an AI to an AGI - something that has happened.
Quote:
Brinkers usually isolate there culture, they do however take a community with them. There are of course exceptions, but I expect exceptions on the muse relationships as well.
Some Brinkers do. Some don't. I wouldn't consider it exceptional in either way.
Quote:
There is only enough runtime in your mesh inserts to support one AI. If you want multiple muses your going to need to cay an ecto or otherwise have somewhere for it to run.
Fair enough! You can always just wear ectoes, or even get more processing hardware implanted - I think there was something about a ghostrider module being capable of running up to three AIs at once?
Quote:
I believe it can be done. It was a suggested backstory for an AGI character. It would be a major undertaking however and it will change the personality at least a bit. For one thing a true AGI doesn’t have compulsory loyalty to you.
Hence why I said "and is likely to end in tears as not."
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
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Sat, 2014-01-25 08:25
Rallan Rallan's picture
I imagine there'd be an awful
I imagine there'd be an awful lot of social stigma attached to dating a muse. Playing out masturbation fantasies with it is one thing (and probably not something people discuss in polite conversation even if it is likely to be pretty common), but people who run around talking about how they're in love with their muse, or who start playing out a relationship with their muse in real life, they're gonna be seen as weirdos. Your muse might look like Vin Diesel and share your interest in studying how social norms gradually become defacto laws in anarcho-capitalist societies, but at the end of the day you're still wasting real money on real (reproduction) flowers and chocolates as a surprise gift for your hardware's version of the Windows Paperclip.
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Sat, 2014-01-25 08:38
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Rallan wrote:I imagine there
Rallan wrote:
I imagine there'd be an awful lot of social stigma attached to dating a muse. Playing out masturbation fantasies with it is one thing (and probably not something people discuss in polite conversation even if it is likely to be pretty common), but people who run around talking about how they're in love with their muse, or who start playing out a relationship with their muse in real life, they're gonna be seen as weirdos. Your muse might look like Vin Diesel and share your interest in studying how social norms gradually become defacto laws in anarcho-capitalist societies, but at the end of the day you're still wasting real money on real (reproduction) flowers and chocolates as a surprise gift for your hardware's version of the Windows Paperclip.
I don't imagine the Venn diagram of those who find romantic or sexual or even total simple interpersonal fulfillment in their muses overlaps awful much with those who engage in an awful lot of social interaction with others. Even if they do, chances are they don't go around making a big thing of it - after all, their muse literally lives in their heads, and most people probably don't talk aloud to their muse. You don't need to buy reproduction flowers or chocolates for someone who can't interact with them, and getting digital flowers or chocolates is something literally nobody but you, your muse, and the dumb program that processes the request for those files will know. Also, I wouldn't call a muse anything in the same category as the Windows paperclip.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
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Sat, 2014-01-25 10:42
Rallan Rallan's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Also, I wouldn't call a muse anything in the same category as the Windows paperclip.
Obviously there's a little bit of hyperbole there (if muses were anywhere near as annoying as Clippy, people would be using screwdrivers to pry their implants out of their own skulls), but at the end of the day it's just a tutorial that can ace the turing test.
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Sat, 2014-01-25 15:08
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Rallan wrote:I imagine there
Rallan wrote:
I imagine there'd be an awful lot of social stigma attached to dating a muse. Playing out masturbation fantasies with it is one thing (and probably not something people discuss in polite conversation even if it is likely to be pretty common), but people who run around talking about how they're in love with their muse, or who start playing out a relationship with their muse in real life, they're gonna be seen as weirdos.
Well, things change. [img]http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20140125.png[/img] I have a very hard time imagining something like muse technology not being widely used for something like that, and with that usually comes social acceptance. Look at how porn is viewed today compared to earlier.
Quote:
Your muse might look like Vin Diesel and share your interest in studying how social norms gradually become defacto laws in anarcho-capitalist societies, but at the end of the day you're still wasting real money on real (reproduction) flowers and chocolates as a surprise gift for your hardware's version of the Windows Paperclip.
Human intuition doesn't grasp that the implications of the many magnitudes of differences in the hardware, which makes your analogy flawed. "Your hardware's version of the Window's Paperclip" literally means "a powerful AI able to simulate the full spectrum of human interaction and create any sensory input you desire." Which sounds like something you could have a lot of fun with.
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Sat, 2014-01-25 18:40
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
I also have to wonder if
I also have to wonder if muses, by and large, wouldn't be some of the prime candidates to self-evolve to full AGI status. I imagine folks with idle ghostrider modules sometimes find their muses have unexpectedly migrated from time to time.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
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Mon, 2014-01-27 06:20
Alkahest Alkahest's picture
Rallan wrote:but at the end
Rallan wrote:
but at the end of the day you're still wasting real money on real (reproduction) flowers and chocolates as a surprise gift for your hardware's version of the Windows Paperclip.
[img]http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/racist1.gif[/img]
—
President of PETE: People for the Ethical Treatment of Exhumans.
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Mon, 2014-01-27 17:22
Decimator Decimator's picture
.
thezombiekat wrote:
For one thing a true AGI doesn’t have compulsory loyalty to you.
This can be remedied!
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Mon, 2014-01-27 22:39
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Marriage
As far as marriage goes, I'm pretty sure different habs have different rules and different religious, ceremonial, and/or secular attachments to it. But here's something the guide book kind of touches on, duration. The book says most people don't get married because they know they are going to live forever. Now, call me an idealist (alternatively "childish" or "naive") but I don't think so. I think two people who sincerely love and support one another could remain together for as long as their immortality take them. Now, you would have to make compromises and make it work with all that's bound to happen, but hey! marriage is hard. Isn't that what many people who remain loyal to each other till death have? You think that if one could (and believe they do so in heaven) live with your spouse forever beyond death, that they would change their minds after awhile for no reason other than they have time? I don't think so.
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Mon, 2014-01-27 22:44
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
It can
Decimator wrote:
thezombiekat wrote:
For one thing a true AGI doesn’t have compulsory loyalty to you.
This can be remedied!
But would you want to? Especially if it was against your lover's will?
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Tue, 2014-01-28 00:27
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
the problem is that love dose
the problem is that love dose not last forever. it just has a decent chance of lasting longer than the typical lifespan of a human. the longer you live the less likely it is that you will continue to want the same person. IRL some people are already choosing to forgo a ceremony with the traditional "to death do us part" because the divorce rate shows it to be unlikely to work for that long and they think it is better to accept an 'as long as it lasts' relationship to minimize recriminations at the inevitable end. (so far this is uncommon) as people live longer more people will simply fall out of love. and when people are looking forward to immortality the pattern will be noticed and the social standards will shift towards relationships that last a long time but are expected to end eventually.
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Tue, 2014-01-28 05:44
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
I'm with Steel Accord on this
I'm with Steel Accord on this one. Even if the odds of staying together forever are very low, that's not really what people think of when they want to get married. They love each other and they're going to take a shot at it. I can see the tradition of marriage changing, and being different from hab to hab - marriage rates, divorce rates and the social implications will go up and down. But the whole "people will be rational in the future", I don't buy that. They'll be human, emotional, impulsive, romantic, vengeful, and so on, much like today. Psychosurgery might change some of that, of course, but I don't think many people will choose to alter their personalities fundamentally.
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Tue, 2014-01-28 07:29
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
i reran the time scales and
i reran the time scales and your right. or rather i am right but it hasn't been long enough yet for the ideal of eternal love to become unbelievable to the public mindset. the oldest people are only about 200 and the vast majority are far younger. people are already getting married with the conscious thought that divorce is an option with very few downsides compared to just living together and splitting up. how many time can you say "till death do us part" before it starts feeling like wishful thinking. especially when after 10 divorces personally you still have more life ahead of you than behind. people now prepare financially for the possibility of divorce prior to a wedding (prenup) it is a small step to emotionally prepare for the probability of separation after you have already had 4 "marriages" lasting between 10 and 100 years as well as countless less formal "dating" relationships. now the young (a category in which i include 50 year olds) may believe what they feel is eternal for a while. but as the culture starts to display separation of long term relationships as normal, inevitable and no more remarkable than establishment of such a relationship. there will be less recriminations at the end (still some but less because the ending of the relationship is not a failure). this will however take another few hundred years there is a common joke "75% of marriages end in divorce, the rest end in death" this takes on a whole new meaning when immortality is a reasonable expectation. and before you check the divorce rate remember "73% of statistics are made up on the spot"
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Tue, 2014-01-28 09:46
Decimator Decimator's picture
Steel Accord wrote:Decimator
Steel Accord wrote:
Decimator wrote:
thezombiekat wrote:
For one thing a true AGI doesn’t have compulsory loyalty to you.
This can be remedied!
But would you want to? Especially if it was against your lover's will?
Of course not! However, what happens when somebody goes wife-shopping among the dead? Some of the dead would accept a compulsion to desire and care for another, don't you think? Alternately, PerfectLove(TM) AGIs might have the compulsion installed and masked after purchase. The purchaser may not even know the compulsion is present.
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Tue, 2014-01-28 09:52
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Decimator wrote:Of course not
Decimator wrote:
Of course not! However, what happens when somebody goes wife-shopping among the dead? Some of the dead would accept a compulsion to desire and care for another, don't you think? Alternately, PerfectLove(TM) AGIs might have the compulsion installed and masked after purchase. The purchaser may not even know the compulsion is present.
Wow. It's like somebody's [i]trying[/i] to motivate every Autonomist in the system to track them down and pop their stack with a paring knife. That said, I have the sick feeling you might be on to something there. Regular old prostitute is so [i]blase[/i], why buy someone's spread legs for a few hours when you can buy their heart and mind for basically eternity? It's fantastically fucking depraved and callous, and it's the kind of thing I can see taking off like wildfire.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
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Tue, 2014-01-28 10:08
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
I'm still not convinced
thezombiekat wrote:
i reran the time scales and your right. or rather i am right but it hasn't been long enough yet for the ideal of eternal love to become unbelievable to the public mindset. the oldest people are only about 200 and the vast majority are far younger. people are already getting married with the conscious thought that divorce is an option with very few downsides compared to just living together and splitting up. how many time can you say "till death do us part" before it starts feeling like wishful thinking. especially when after 10 divorces personally you still have more life ahead of you than behind. people now prepare financially for the possibility of divorce prior to a wedding (prenup) it is a small step to emotionally prepare for the probability of separation after you have already had 4 "marriages" lasting between 10 and 100 years as well as countless less formal "dating" relationships. now the young (a category in which i include 50 year olds) may believe what they feel is eternal for a while. but as the culture starts to display separation of long term relationships as normal, inevitable and no more remarkable than establishment of such a relationship. there will be less recriminations at the end (still some but less because the ending of the relationship is not a failure). this will however take another few hundred years there is a common joke "75% of marriages end in divorce, the rest end in death" this takes on a whole new meaning when immortality is a reasonable expectation. and before you check the divorce rate remember "73% of statistics are made up on the spot"
I'm still not convinced that just because divorce is more accepted and even expected (as despicable as I personally find that) means that everyone views it as fluid and temporary. If that were the case, why get married? Why not just remain monogamous until the relationship has reached it's end? If you love someone, have dated and remained exclusive for over a thousand years or more, and with no sign of that love ever going away, what's wrong the romance, ceremony, and finality of getting married? Now, I'm not saying that that dating period happened without interruption. You could spend decades until you work up the courage to ask him/her out, another century to go through dating. Break ups, patches, all the fleeting and might I say, immaturities of "falling in love" would just fade over the course of time. Leaving only the purity and warmth of "being in love." Rather than going up, I would actually say divorce rates would go down! As people would not get married, most dismissing it as old fashioned, but those that DO get married might never leave each other.
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Tue, 2014-01-28 17:32
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Steel Accord wrote:
Steel Accord wrote:
I'm still not convinced that just because divorce is more accepted and even expected (as despicable as I personally find that) means that everyone views it as fluid and temporary. If that were the case, why get married? Why not just remain monogamous until the relationship has reached it's end?
For me - because I like the idea of gathering up all my friends and family and declaring the love to my wife in front of them and then throwing a huge party to celebrate. That ritual is called getting married, whether you're religious or not or you think it will last forever or not.
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Thu, 2014-01-30 08:11
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
otohime1978 wrote:Same goes
otohime1978 wrote:
Same goes for FtMs. A friend of ours was a hardcore feminist; and he was raised to believe that male gaze was objectification. After starting testosterone, he found himself staring at women more and more; and he couldn't help himself. Before, he used to think that male gaze was a choice. Now, he's starting to realise that it very well may be beyond his control initially until he realises it.
I'll have to look up this thread more in detail later, but I just wanted to ask one thing: Last I heard this story it was posted by AvilanTheGrey at the Giant in the Playground forums. Do you know him by any chance?
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Thu, 2014-01-30 09:55
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
m
removed because i decided my math was off
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Thu, 2014-01-30 18:46
Kremlin K.O.A. Kremlin K.O.A.'s picture
Steel Accord wrote:jackgraham
Steel Accord wrote:
jackgraham wrote:
Yeah, Marc is probably right on this one. Much as I like to think people would prefer a fully sentient generalized intelligence as a romantic partner, one should never underestimate people's tendency to follow the path of least resistance.
Well for me, dating an AGI would actually be pretty cool. Especially of I could persuade her to exist in a ghost rider module. That way we'd never be apart. <3
Clingy :p
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Also, I wouldn't call a muse anything in the same category as the Windows paperclip.
Somewhere, on the Carnival of the Goat, there is a simulspace with full BDSM regalia where you can make Clippy scream and bleed.
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Wow. It's like somebody's [i]trying[/i] to motivate every Autonomist in the system to track them down and pop their stack with a paring knife. That said, I have the sick feeling you might be on to something there. Regular old prostitute is so [i]blase[/i], why buy someone's spread legs for a few hours when you can buy their heart and mind for basically eternity? It's fantastically fucking depraved and callous, and it's the kind of thing I can see taking off like wildfire.
Where do you think Nine Lives get their main income stream from? Their DollHouse lines are their biggest product. And note that Nine Lives does not seem to be hunted by the entire AA.
Decimator wrote:
Of course not! However, what happens when somebody goes wife-shopping among the dead? Some of the dead would accept a compulsion to desire and care for another, don't you think?
Transnecrophilia?
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Thu, 2014-01-30 19:49
Decimator Decimator's picture
Kremlin K.O.A. wrote
Kremlin K.O.A. wrote:
Decimator wrote:
Of course not! However, what happens when somebody goes wife-shopping among the dead? Some of the dead would accept a compulsion to desire and care for another, don't you think?
Transnecrophilia?
No, I was referring to the people in dead storage who willingly sell themselves into slavery for a decade or more.
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Thu, 2014-01-30 20:15
Kremlin K.O.A. Kremlin K.O.A.'s picture
Decimator wrote:Kremlin K.O.A
Decimator wrote:
Kremlin K.O.A. wrote:
Decimator wrote:
Of course not! However, what happens when somebody goes wife-shopping among the dead? Some of the dead would accept a compulsion to desire and care for another, don't you think?
Transnecrophilia?
No, I was referring to the people in dead storage who willingly sell themselves into slavery for a decade or more.
I figured, I was trying to suggest a name it might be called in universe. Although for the formerly dead person, maybe it could be called passive transnecrophilia.
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Sat, 2014-02-01 09:06
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
Lorsa wrote: I'll have to
Lorsa wrote:
I'll have to look up this thread more in detail later, but I just wanted to ask one thing: Last I heard this story it was posted by AvilanTheGrey at the Giant in the Playground forums. Do you know him by any chance?
No, I don't know him, not do I visit GitP. I usually avoid such places, and just even me commenting here is odd.
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Mon, 2014-02-03 10:07
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
otohime1978 wrote:No, I don't
otohime1978 wrote:
No, I don't know him, not do I visit GitP. I usually avoid such places, and just even me commenting here is odd.
It is a fairly nice place, if you know which subforums and threads to look at. In any case, I am glad you decided to post here and either this is a story that has spread or more than one FtM transsexual has had similar experiences. The latter seem likely. On the topic at hand; I think transhumans in Eclipse Phase are much better at differentiating between romance and sex compared to most people today. There is no reason whatsoever why romance would ever become obsolete, so I assume it will be very much present even in a transhuman future (discounting those who have removed such feelings with psychosurgery and the like). I've always thought there are three types of attraction; physical, emotional and intellectual. Physical attraction would depend on the morphs involved whereas emotional and intellectual attraction probably doesn't. Even today, internet romances are quite common, even for people that have never seen pictures of one another, and I assume these will be even more common in Eclipse Phase time. Like I said, I have a feeling transhumans in Eclipse Phase are much more apt at recognising and accepting the different types of attraction, where you can have one person whom you have a purely mesh-based intellectual relationship with and spend lots of time talking to, one whom you turn to for emotional companionship, be it in simulspace or meatspace and a third person you go to for sex. Most people probably don't consider such an arrangement strange (and I also assume having multiple partners for all types of attraction to be fairly common). Then again this is all speculation, and I've also assumed that a lot more people in Eclipse Phase time will be bi-sexual (or perhaps pan-sexual) so what do I know?
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Mon, 2014-02-03 23:20
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
You probably aren't wrong.
Lorsa wrote:
otohime1978 wrote:
No, I don't know him, not do I visit GitP. I usually avoid such places, and just even me commenting here is odd.
It is a fairly nice place, if you know which subforums and threads to look at. In any case, I am glad you decided to post here and either this is a story that has spread or more than one FtM transsexual has had similar experiences. The latter seem likely. On the topic at hand; I think transhumans in Eclipse Phase are much better at differentiating between romance and sex compared to most people today. There is no reason whatsoever why romance would ever become obsolete, so I assume it will be very much present even in a transhuman future (discounting those who have removed such feelings with psychosurgery and the like). I've always thought there are three types of attraction; physical, emotional and intellectual. Physical attraction would depend on the morphs involved whereas emotional and intellectual attraction probably doesn't. Even today, internet romances are quite common, even for people that have never seen pictures of one another, and I assume these will be even more common in Eclipse Phase time. Like I said, I have a feeling transhumans in Eclipse Phase are much more apt at recognising and accepting the different types of attraction, where you can have one person whom you have a purely mesh-based intellectual relationship with and spend lots of time talking to, one whom you turn to for emotional companionship, be it in simulspace or meatspace and a third person you go to for sex. Most people probably don't consider such an arrangement strange (and I also assume having multiple partners for all types of attraction to be fairly common). Then again this is all speculation, and I've also assumed that a lot more people in Eclipse Phase time will be bi-sexual (or perhaps pan-sexual) so what do I know?
I would think bi and pansexuality would be quite common. That being said, I still don't think it would be universal. Just as people are born gay, straight, or bi; I think some people are just born with a monogamous bent. Perhaps their idea of love and romance is just different from people who are pansexual. As I move forward in life and find these opinions are more common, I've never found the concept of multiple partners tantalizing. And the idea of "sharing" someone with another man . . . I don't know, maybe I'm just easily made jealous. XD So in the EP setting proper, I guess the question for me wouldn't be if I could find a partner, but rather could we both work something out between our perhaps starkly different views and natures? E.g. Would an Uplift be more prone to polygamy? Could I be romantically involved with a woman who just sleeved into a male morph? Stuff like that.
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Tue, 2014-02-04 02:32
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Lorsa wrote:Like I said, I
Lorsa wrote:
Like I said, I have a feeling transhumans in Eclipse Phase are much more apt at recognising and accepting the different types of attraction, where you can have one person whom you have a purely mesh-based intellectual relationship with and spend lots of time talking to, one whom you turn to for emotional companionship, be it in simulspace or meatspace and a third person you go to for sex. Most people probably don't consider such an arrangement strange (and I also assume having multiple partners for all types of attraction to be fairly common).
Women already do this IRL. The PUA/Red Pill community has the saying "Alpha fucks, Beta bucks" for a reason, you know. ;) :P
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Tue, 2014-02-04 03:40
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Steel Accord wrote:
Steel Accord wrote:
Just as people are born gay, straight, or bi; I think some people are just born with a monogamous bent.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that all people are born with a given sexuality. In some cultures (like ancient Greece), homosexuality was much more common, and for that to be genetic seems unlikely. I assume that some people are born gay, some people are born straight, but a large group is impressionable by the culture they grow up in. That's the pattern you see in many other personality traits too. And the impressionability could be more pronounced for sexual preference than for most other traits, given the number of highly adaptible reproduction strategies encoded in our brains already.
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Tue, 2014-02-04 03:58
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Lorsa wrote:There is no
Lorsa wrote:
There is no reason whatsoever why romance would ever become obsolete, so I assume it will be very much present even in a transhuman future (discounting those who have removed such feelings with psychosurgery and the like).
Still though, look at for example what happened to divorce rates when women got economically liberated. As soon as they had other options than staying, they started taking them when their marriage was worse than the alternative. And that's even though in today's world, there are still huge costs (in the wide sense, not just a narrow economic one) associated with divorce. When that initial crazy-in-love feeling is gone, and you don't just think everything about your partner is fantastic, then you start to see their flaws. That thing they do that annoy you, all the compromises you have to make when you're two non-identical people living their lives together, the arguments. Today, you don't really have any alternative except going single for a while (which sucks) followed by doing the exact same thing with someone else. But in EP, if you leave your partner, you still have your AR/VR partner(s). No arguments, no compromises, perfect sex tailored just for your desires. I think that two things could happen - either romance dies for the majority, or what you described will happen. Relationships will be a lot more open, fluid and tolerant. When people have very strong alternatives, you can't demand as much from them. You can't force them to do things your way, and neither you nor your partner will want to compromise much. So you'll do the things you enjoy with your partner(s), and the rest you'll do with other people. No more discussing if you're watching a chick flick or an action movie - you're watching them separately with friends.
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Tue, 2014-02-04 04:35
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
Smokeskin wrote:Steel Accord
Smokeskin wrote:
Steel Accord wrote:
Just as people are born gay, straight, or bi; I think some people are just born with a monogamous bent.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that all people are born with a given sexuality. In some cultures (like ancient Greece), homosexuality was much more common, and for that to be genetic seems unlikely. I assume that some people are born gay, some people are born straight, but a large group is impressionable by the culture they grow up in. That's the pattern you see in many other personality traits too. And the impressionability could be more pronounced for sexual preference than for most other traits, given the number of highly adaptible reproduction strategies encoded in our brains already.
There has been some fairly good quality science on the topic of nature vs nurture and homosexuality based on some twin studies, that is find pairs of identical twins (same genetics) raised separately (different environment) The final conclusion is that sexuality is strongly influenced, but not controlled, by genetics. If memory serves if one twin is gay then there is a 50% chance the other twin is also gay. Compared to a 4% chance that a random person is gay it is a very strong correlation.
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Tue, 2014-02-04 07:29
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
One, homosexuality has little
One, homosexuality has little if nothing to do with genetics, and more to do with enutero development. The mother has more influence on the development of a child and their minds than you would think. For example, the more male children a mother has, the more likely the next male will be homosexual or trans. Then again, the biggest study on this was performed by Raymond Blanchard; and nothing that comes out of his mind in any way reflects reality anyways. However, actual scientists have produced trans and homosexual behaviour in rats by changing their eutero environments by messing with various hormone levels. We saw this happen in humans during the DES years. DES exposed males during pregnancy are overwhelmingly trans or homosexual. However, we don't really understand how the difference comes about between the two. Current hypothesis are that earlier exposure causes gender identity to shift, later causes sexual orientation shifts. But the latter one has been difficult to prove and pin down as it is erratic and rarely seems to work the way we expect it. Two, bisexual people exist, Smokeskin. We're far more likely to comply with society's demands because we can. Homosexuals have a hard, if not impossible time conforming. Bisexuals tend to be under represented, as there is a phenomenon where when a bisexual choses a partner and sticks with them, everyone suddenly labels them as gay or straight. Because, you know, we totally stop looking at other people when we're in a relationship.
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Tue, 2014-02-04 08:19
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
otohime1978 wrote:
otohime1978 wrote:
Two, bisexual people exist, Smokeskin. We're far more likely to comply with society's demands because we can. Homosexuals have a hard, if not impossible time conforming. Bisexuals tend to be under represented, as there is a phenomenon where when a bisexual choses a partner and sticks with them, everyone suddenly labels them as gay or straight. Because, you know, we totally stop looking at other people when we're in a relationship.
I wasn't trying to convey the full complexities of the sexual spectrum. I'm just not sure that I buy the whole "you're born gay or not" thing (whether that is due to in utero hormone levels or genetics or a mix). Some people could be (and my personal guess would be that the majority of the homosexuals in our society are born that way), but AFAIK for example the ancient Greek Spartan men generally took wives only to get children while their romantic feelings where reserved for other men. Maybe most of us are inherently bisexual but heavily imprinted by our upbringing. Or maybe they just had some nasty peer pressure in Sparta, or maybe some historian was pushing his personal opinion. More research is needed!
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Tue, 2014-02-04 10:56
nick012000 nick012000's picture
You know, this thread has
You know, this thread has given me an idea: a character who has taken the Minion/Partner trait to get a Humanities Infolife AGI he constructed from an Open-Source codeline, then used a simulspace storytelling-AI combined with a psychosurgery-AI to take the canonical material from a series of early 20th century cartoons to produce a lifetime of false memories that are then inserted into the agents of the AGI's neural net, and then it tweaks the AGI with psychosurgery to produce a personality in line with the character whose memories it now possesses. You know, just so that he can have his anime waifu come to life, for real.
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Tue, 2014-02-04 11:00
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Steel Accord wrote:I would
Steel Accord wrote:
I would think bi and pansexuality would be quite common. That being said, I still don't think it would be universal. Just as people are born gay, straight, or bi; I think some people are just born with a monogamous bent. Perhaps their idea of love and romance is just different from people who are pansexual. As I move forward in life and find these opinions are more common, I've never found the concept of multiple partners tantalizing. And the idea of "sharing" someone with another man . . . I don't know, maybe I'm just easily made jealous. XD So in the EP setting proper, I guess the question for me wouldn't be if I could find a partner, but rather could we both work something out between our perhaps starkly different views and natures? E.g. Would an Uplift be more prone to polygamy? Could I be romantically involved with a woman who just sleeved into a male morph? Stuff like that.
I did say more common, not universal. Also, I think you are confusing pansexuality with polyamory. I think both will be more common in Eclipse Phase and as I said I believe people will split the various kinds of attraction more than we do today. Obviously there will still be heterosexual people, and those prefering monogamous relationships. But the main reason these two are so common in the westen world today has to do with socialising and not genetic tendencies. Also, who said you'd be sharing someone with another man? Maybe it's another woman or maybe an androgynous AGI or a dolphin or whatever. But you are right, the problem is definitely if you can find someone that will share or accept your views on how a relationship should be. You know, just like today.
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Tue, 2014-02-04 11:16
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Smokeskin wrote:Still though,
Smokeskin wrote:
Still though, look at for example what happened to divorce rates when women got economically liberated. As soon as they had other options than staying, they started taking them when their marriage was worse than the alternative. And that's even though in today's world, there are still huge costs (in the wide sense, not just a narrow economic one) associated with divorce. When that initial crazy-in-love feeling is gone, and you don't just think everything about your partner is fantastic, then you start to see their flaws. That thing they do that annoy you, all the compromises you have to make when you're two non-identical people living their lives together, the arguments. Today, you don't really have any alternative except going single for a while (which sucks) followed by doing the exact same thing with someone else. But in EP, if you leave your partner, you still have your AR/VR partner(s). No arguments, no compromises, perfect sex tailored just for your desires. I think that two things could happen - either romance dies for the majority, or what you described will happen. Relationships will be a lot more open, fluid and tolerant. When people have very strong alternatives, you can't demand as much from them. You can't force them to do things your way, and neither you nor your partner will want to compromise much. So you'll do the things you enjoy with your partner(s), and the rest you'll do with other people. No more discussing if you're watching a chick flick or an action movie - you're watching them separately with friends.
The economic liberation of women that you speak of was one of the best things that happened in the 20th century. While I am sure it was a large factor in the increased divorce rates, it doesn't give the full picture. First, I believe many people simply aren't very good at constructive communication. It's one of the few things we aren't tought in school and that the previous generations often aren't very good at either (because it wasn't a high priority) so most people simply don't learn how to talk to each other. Secondly, part of it I believe is because we don't get our idea of a good relationship from the right sources. The romantic movies today teaches us that if two people love each other, everything will be perfect and they won't argue or have any problems and will live in happy-land forever. This simply isn't true and when exposed to reality many people make the faulty assumption that it must mean they don't love their partner, or that their partner don't love them. I strongly feel many people have a rather poor idea of what an actual, real relationship is supposed to be like. Impossible expectations can breed dissatisfaction. But yes, I do feel that in a transhuman future, relationships will look very different and you will have more partners for your different needs. Because if there's one thing I strongly believe it is that humans will always have a need for romance and deep emotional connections with each other. Certain groups in Eclipse Phase will want to get rid of it of course, and might even succeed to various degrees but for the majority it will definitely be important.
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Tue, 2014-02-04 11:21
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Contestable
Smokeskin wrote:
Lorsa wrote:
There is no reason whatsoever why romance would ever become obsolete, so I assume it will be very much present even in a transhuman future (discounting those who have removed such feelings with psychosurgery and the like).
Still though, look at for example what happened to divorce rates when women got economically liberated. As soon as they had other options than staying, they started taking them when their marriage was worse than the alternative. And that's even though in today's world, there are still huge costs (in the wide sense, not just a narrow economic one) associated with divorce. When that initial crazy-in-love feeling is gone, and you don't just think everything about your partner is fantastic, then you start to see their flaws. That thing they do that annoy you, all the compromises you have to make when you're two non-identical people living their lives together, the arguments. Today, you don't really have any alternative except going single for a while (which sucks) followed by doing the exact same thing with someone else. But in EP, if you leave your partner, you still have your AR/VR partner(s). No arguments, no compromises, perfect sex tailored just for your desires. I think that two things could happen - either romance dies for the majority, or what you described will happen. Relationships will be a lot more open, fluid and tolerant. When people have very strong alternatives, you can't demand as much from them. You can't force them to do things your way, and neither you nor your partner will want to compromise much. So you'll do the things you enjoy with your partner(s), and the rest you'll do with other people. No more discussing if you're watching a chick flick or an action movie - you're watching them separately with friends.
You act as if marriage is expected to be bliss by everyone who does get married. There are plenty of people, in regular relationships, that recognize their partners faults. As I said before, when you have eternity, childish notions of romance just fade over time, leaving the pureness of true love and genuine romance. I still think, even if marriage rates wouldn't climb, they would probably stick more than nowadays because people would be more mature in their decision making.
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Tue, 2014-02-04 11:29
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
*thoughts*
nick012000 wrote:
You know, this thread has given me an idea: a character who has taken the Minion/Partner trait to get a Humanities Infolife AGI he constructed from an Open-Source codeline, then used a simulspace storytelling-AI combined with a psychosurgery-AI to take the canonical material from a series of early 20th century cartoons to produce a lifetime of false memories that are then inserted into the agents of the AGI's neural net, and then it tweaks the AGI with psychosurgery to produce a personality in line with the character whose memories it now possesses. You know, just so that he can have his anime waifu come to life, for real.
Oooooooh even I'll admit that is tempting! http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130921043922/mlp-gameloft/images...(Grand_Galloping_Gala).png That said, the fact that I essentially created her would . . . get in the way somewhat.
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Tue, 2014-02-04 11:32
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Exclusivity
Lorsa wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
Still though, look at for example what happened to divorce rates when women got economically liberated. As soon as they had other options than staying, they started taking them when their marriage was worse than the alternative. And that's even though in today's world, there are still huge costs (in the wide sense, not just a narrow economic one) associated with divorce. When that initial crazy-in-love feeling is gone, and you don't just think everything about your partner is fantastic, then you start to see their flaws. That thing they do that annoy you, all the compromises you have to make when you're two non-identical people living their lives together, the arguments. Today, you don't really have any alternative except going single for a while (which sucks) followed by doing the exact same thing with someone else. But in EP, if you leave your partner, you still have your AR/VR partner(s). No arguments, no compromises, perfect sex tailored just for your desires. I think that two things could happen - either romance dies for the majority, or what you described will happen. Relationships will be a lot more open, fluid and tolerant. When people have very strong alternatives, you can't demand as much from them. You can't force them to do things your way, and neither you nor your partner will want to compromise much. So you'll do the things you enjoy with your partner(s), and the rest you'll do with other people. No more discussing if you're watching a chick flick or an action movie - you're watching them separately with friends.
The economic liberation of women that you speak of was one of the best things that happened in the 20th century. While I am sure it was a large factor in the increased divorce rates, it doesn't give the full picture. First, I believe many people simply aren't very good at constructive communication. It's one of the few things we aren't tought in school and that the previous generations often aren't very good at either (because it wasn't a high priority) so most people simply don't learn how to talk to each other. Secondly, part of it I believe is because we don't get our idea of a good relationship from the right sources. The romantic movies today teaches us that if two people love each other, everything will be perfect and they won't argue or have any problems and will live in happy-land forever. This simply isn't true and when exposed to reality many people make the faulty assumption that it must mean they don't love their partner, or that their partner don't love them. I strongly feel many people have a rather poor idea of what an actual, real relationship is supposed to be like. Impossible expectations can breed dissatisfaction. But yes, I do feel that in a transhuman future, relationships will look very different and you will have more partners for your different needs. Because if there's one thing I strongly believe it is that humans will always have a need for romance and deep emotional connections with each other. Certain groups in Eclipse Phase will want to get rid of it of course, and might even succeed to various degrees but for the majority it will definitely be important.
Do you think, even as relationships would change, their would still be room for a straight, monogamous, romantic like myself?
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Tue, 2014-02-04 12:06
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Steel Accord wrote:Do you
Steel Accord wrote:
Do you think, even as relationships would change, their would still be room for a straight, monogamous, romantic like myself?
Of course. Maybe less room, but there'd still be room. Something that would be important for you to keep in mind in a transhuman future would be to make sure your partner knows of your preferences. While monogamy is more or less expected today, it might not be in the future so you'd have to inform your prospective romance partners of how you feel.
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Tue, 2014-02-04 13:06
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Communication
Lorsa wrote:
Steel Accord wrote:
Do you think, even as relationships would change, their would still be room for a straight, monogamous, romantic like myself?
Of course. Maybe less room, but there'd still be room. Something that would be important for you to keep in mind in a transhuman future would be to make sure your partner knows of your preferences. While monogamy is more or less expected today, it might not be in the future so you'd have to inform your prospective romance partners of how you feel.
So at least one crucial thing doesn't change in relationships, romantic or otherwise, communication. :)
—
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Tue, 2014-02-04 15:16
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Lorsa wrote:Smokeskin wrote
Lorsa wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
Still though, look at for example what happened to divorce rates when women got economically liberated. As soon as they had other options than staying, they started taking them when their marriage was worse than the alternative. And that's even though in today's world, there are still huge costs (in the wide sense, not just a narrow economic one) associated with divorce. When that initial crazy-in-love feeling is gone, and you don't just think everything about your partner is fantastic, then you start to see their flaws. That thing they do that annoy you, all the compromises you have to make when you're two non-identical people living their lives together, the arguments. Today, you don't really have any alternative except going single for a while (which sucks) followed by doing the exact same thing with someone else. But in EP, if you leave your partner, you still have your AR/VR partner(s). No arguments, no compromises, perfect sex tailored just for your desires. I think that two things could happen - either romance dies for the majority, or what you described will happen. Relationships will be a lot more open, fluid and tolerant. When people have very strong alternatives, you can't demand as much from them. You can't force them to do things your way, and neither you nor your partner will want to compromise much. So you'll do the things you enjoy with your partner(s), and the rest you'll do with other people. No more discussing if you're watching a chick flick or an action movie - you're watching them separately with friends.
The economic liberation of women that you speak of was one of the best things that happened in the 20th century. While I am sure it was a large factor in the increased divorce rates, it doesn't give the full picture.
I 100% agree it was a good thing. It gave women the option to leave - but the problems that lead to the desire to leave was there before too. You might have an easier time accepting a bad marriage if you can't leave, but it's still a bad marriage.
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Tue, 2014-02-04 23:43
ProxyKlee ProxyKlee's picture
Fluid sexuality and changing norms
Lorsa wrote:
I did say more common, not universal. Also, I think you are confusing pansexuality with polyamory. I think both will be more common in Eclipse Phase and as I said I believe people will split the various kinds of attraction more than we do today.
At least one sentence supports polyamory and open relationships being more common. Rimward p95 mentions the Titanian Minister of Defense being in a "modern" relationship: "He and his wife, a prominent medical researcher and also an early settler, have a modern relationship; both are frequently seen about Nyhavn with younger companions."
otohime1978 wrote:
However, actual scientists have produced trans and homosexual behaviour in rats by changing their eutero environments by messing with various hormone levels. We saw this happen in humans during the DES years. DES exposed males during pregnancy are overwhelmingly trans or homosexual.
Do you have a source for that study? I am really curious how the scientists tell if a rat is trans. Rats don't have a culture where specific norms and roles are assigned to a sex. One possibility is that people have a fluid sexuality that changes over time. Mine has shifted from "straight-ish" to bisexual/pansexual since I started taking estrogen. I have a feeling that same-sex and polyamory have been accepted as new sexual norms in EP. The new taboo-ish relationships are probably centered around uplifts, AGI, and synthmorphs.
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