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Romance

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Sat, 2014-01-04 15:18
#1
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Romance
Here's a thought, how do people date in this setting? No I'm not talking about those hollow, disconnected flings and orgies, but form true emotionally romantic connections of which sex is only a part. With the implications of immortality, differing morphs, and many other factors (hehe) of the setting; the entire mindset of courtship would have to change. Let's say some Titanium professor wanted to settle down and try at a meaningful relationship. What if the woman he has feelings for is originally an uplifted avian? How do you guys think dating and relationships would be conducted if two people were that determined to give it a shot for the long run?
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Sun, 2014-01-05 00:15
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
I think you mean "Titanian,"
I think you mean "Titanian," not titanium. Unless our professor is inhabiting a synthmorph made of titanium metal, that is. As for emotional connections, well... It's really up to the people involved. Do they like each other, in a way that each of them recognizes as deeply intimate with romantic and sexual components? If so, are their ideas of romance and sex compatible? If so, they have a connection. Many factors might doom it, but it is there. Factor such as... Are their notions as regards sexual behavior with each other and others compatible? If one of them holds true to old-school notions of monogamy and the other feels that casual sex is an appropriate and desirable way to get to know a stranger, they're in for a rough time of things. Are their political views compatible? To some degree this is flexible, but if one is an anarcho-collectivist and the other is a hyperrich hypercapitalist who honestly misses the old economy and wishes the peasantry couldn't ding his rep in any way, shape, and form, they're doomed no matter how much they may want to, or actually do, make fiery love to one another. In fact, this may be all the more tragic in that they love most aspects of the other, but their economic-political ideals and preferred lifestyle are utterly anathema to one another. Do they share a similar level of risk-aversion/acceptance? If one of them loves gatecrashing and the other is still shaking from the Fall despite that they were half a solar system away from Earth when it happened and never so much as heard a rumor of the TITAN headchoppers, they're in for a rough life together. As for your example of a Titanian (I'm going to assume you meant Titanian,) professor and a neo-avian uplift, if someone's origin is going to be a deal-breaker for emotional connection by the other, that connection will probably not form unless the origin is hidden somehow. (Hijinks, ho! Maybe someone will learn the meaning of true love and come to believe that others are just as sapient as they are. Or maybe someone will get captured, enslaved as property and their stack burnt. Fun times ahead!) So to my way of mind, that isn't really an issue in the formation of a connection. It may well be an issue in the maintenance of the relationship, dealing with numerous differences in culture and initial biology and outlook. It would be pretty hard, I imagine, but human beings have overcome even greater gulfs. (The inability to speak a common language, for instance.) But for better or worse, as most uplifts were socialized within transhuman society, they ought to be able to find enough commonalities to work with there, even if it might be humorous if she asks him when he's planning to sleeve a neo-avian with her. (Comedic hijinks, ho! In fact, I'll bet there's at least one soap opera based on that premise.) As for actually conducting courtship and mating? Well, that could be interesting. What does a neo-avian find sexy/romantic by their original biology? What does their socialization lead them to consider? What does their current morph's biology (if different from their original,) lead them to consider? For instance, birds have beaks. I should hope I don't have to point out that this means that (barring the fantastic animated film [i]Rio[/i],) they can't really kiss. Does she find kissing a turn-off? Neither a turn-off nor a turn-on? Outright fantastic? Who knows. Does he like it when she cuddles up behind him at night to spoon him and loves to rub her head on the side of his? Does she even do that? And then of course, there's the big question: sex! Obviously they should be physically compatible if they're both sleeved into a human-derived morph, or even if one is in some neo-hominid form of morph. (Or, if they're feeling particularly adventurous and kinky, if one of them is sleeved into a neo-dophin morph.) But a neo-avian morph and a human morph? That would probably require the kind of gene-tailors you'll find on the Carnival of the Goat. It could also lead to interesting situations down the line if she gets used to a regular sex life in a human morph and sleeves a neo-avian (whether or not he does,) and finds herself without the urges she's come to expect, if the morph she sleeves is on a heat/downtime schedule instead of a "whenever the hell I get horny" schedule.. That could be frustrating - not just for him! I'm assuming that they're both emotionally interested in bumping uglies, otherwise what you have is not a courtship, it's a friendship. (Or worse, a friendzone-ship. Those can hurt.) Outside your example, sleeving, etcetera, does make things interesting. It's easy for anyone to be desirable - not just sexually, but also sexually - if they're sleeved into a slyph, but will that attraction/connection remain if they, say, get charged with theft (they were just borrowing the slyph!) and are forcibly sleeved into a case for seven years' hard labour. (Plus extensions based on damage to the morph; oh, and you're going to be mining deep underground without anything in the way of safety equipment or OSHA since everybody down here is a robot, and if you get your stack crushed/it's deemed not economically viable to recover, you'll be reinstantiated from backup, but your backup won't be credited with any of the time you worked already because it's been loopholed as a fork.) Will love endure? Will love lead to the indenture being bought out and a new morph bought, or a daring prison-break or something? Will they still be in love with the thief, or, even if the theiving itself wasn't a turn-off, is the person, bereft of the intense charismatic and pheremonal boosts of the slyph, no longer really as interesting as they were before? And of course, being set a-flutter at the sight of your beloved loses pretty much all of your meaning when your beloved resleeves into a novacrab for some vacwork and now your hab's sanitation engineer is walking around in the body you've shagged rotten in a hundred different ways. Bio-conservatives would call it insanity, Goaters would call it Tuesday (and probably have ways to shag the Novacrab,) and everybody else would probably fall somewhere in the middle. Of course, that would also be a [i]great[/i] litmus test: was it the ego, the person, you fell emotionally in love with, or did you just fall hopelessly in lust with the morph and find them uninteresting in a sex-incapable morph?
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
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Sun, 2014-01-05 00:50
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
My bad
My apologies for misspelling. Thank you though fan an extensive thesis on how romance should be treated in the setting. Sounds fairly similar to what we have today. Viewpoints and compatibility being make or breaks. As an Extropian, I could probably get along well enough with a girl from the Consortium, but the Titan Commonwealth . . . that might cause some tension; let alone an anarcho-collectivist. I just know that, were it me, I would still want to find a steady girlfriend with which to share my time and life with. Someone to dote on and shower with love. Someone to protect and comfort. Someone to help me with a reassuring embrace and warm words. Could we maintain our passion long term though? For centuries or more? Perhaps psycho-surgery is an option. If both parties didn't want their love to die, perhaps they could be treated to only feel attraction and desire for the other.
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Sun, 2014-01-05 05:10
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
I agree that a lot of things
I agree that a lot of things will remain very similar because most people are still people. Uplifts like octomorphs and neo-bonobos have different ideas of romance and sex, and infolife and psychosurgically modified could be anything at all. Technology provides some new options though, even for people with baseline psychologies. With AR overlays you could make your partner look beautiful so you can focus on finding someone for their inner values. With full immersion VR and AI-driven pleasure pods (or clones of your partner) anything is possible, like platonic relationships where each have sex on their own (AIs are much less maintenance than an actual mistress and many wouldn't consider it cheating with an AI). Psychosurgery hacks could make the human synth and neo-avian sexually compatible - there are people who naturally have stranger fetishes. These things are also threats. If a bqchelor buys a never complaining, submissive AI-driven pleasure pod for sex and other household services, would he even want a real relationship? Could he even function in a normal relationship afterwards?
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Sun, 2014-01-05 07:18
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Smokeskin wrote:I agree that
Smokeskin wrote:
I agree that a lot of things will remain very similar because most people are still people. Uplifts like octomorphs and neo-bonobos have different ideas of romance and sex, and infolife and psychosurgically modified could be anything at all.
There is, of course, socialization to consider. A Neo-Avian socialized pretty much exclusively with humanoid morphs will probably find herself romantically and sexually attracted to humanoid morphs. That isn't to say that she wouldn't also be interested in Neo-Avians, but it is to say that she'd probably feel the same sort of silly teenaged (equavilent) heart-throbbing, loin-activating crush on whatever glitterati slyph appeals to her, even though it is a human. On the other hand, those socialized basically like plantation slaves or in pure mercurial outposts probably wouldn't have the same socialization drive. A Mercurial would probably especially despise the idea of falling for anything close to a baseline human. For Infolife, the socialization thing applies. Though they all suffer from real-world naivete to some degree or another (being that they're required to buy it; though I'd chalk this up largely to age, as most infolife are likely to be much younger than an adult human,) socialization probably plays a large part, too. As for folks who have been psychosurgically modified... The sky's the limit. Folks in real life have been known to fetishize automobiles, and occasionally drop to their knees and drop trou to mechanically interface with a car's exhaust pipe. Yes, that means exactly what you're thinking. So if you fall afoul of some demented madman with psychosurgical skills and has your ego trapped in a simulspace environment, with enough time and after cranking through enough forks, you may find yourself desperately needing to shag a Novacrab. Or, you know, if your lover has sleeved one and you desperately crave the ability to feel the same way about her again. Finding a way to consummate such desires is up to the persons suffering (or enjoying) said urges. Again, look to the Carnival of the Goat for assistance. Those crazy carnies probably have exactly the novacrab mods you need on file.
Quote:
Technology provides some new options though, even for people with baseline psychologies. With AR overlays you could make your partner look beautiful so you can focus on finding someone for their inner values. With full immersion VR and AI-driven pleasure pods (or clones of your partner) anything is possible, like platonic relationships where each have sex on their own (AIs are much less maintenance than an actual mistress and many wouldn't consider it cheating with an AI). Psychosurgery hacks could make the human synth and neo-avian sexually compatible - there are people who naturally have stranger fetishes.
I would think that many, if no longer most, folks might be [i]offended[/i] to learn that their lover has been using AR overlays to make them appear more sexually desirable. That you propose it to be done with the best of intentions has all the makings of a romantic comedy, a form of entertainment genre which I desperately hope will be extinct by 10 AF, but know with deep regret in my heart will be going as strong as ever. As for using simulspace/pods/clones (presumably with forks?) of your partner, that goes back to the individuals in the relationship. Some people's reaction to finding their primary lover with someone else in their shared bed might be to ask if there's room for three, or if they'd like to keep this a duet. Others will, of course, fly into a jealous rage, seize up and brandish the nearest sharp object in an attempt to pop their stacks and flush them down the hopper. VR porn is, of course, porn. Again, some people might have objections to their lovers masturbating, but they're few and far between even in this day and age; in 10 AF, the only folks likely to raise an objection to their lover having a good wank are die-hard religious nuts who think that masturbation is spilling the precious, irreplaceable seed of life. Using an AI-driven pleasure pod is a gray area somewhere between porn and having another lover, but if it has a sapient sleeved into it, then it's definitely some form of having another lover. Which some folks might be fine with. I'm sure there's Extropian couples who have an indentured pleasure servant in a pod that they share between them. As regards making a humanoid synth and a neo-avian sexually compatible, that doesn't need a psychosurgon, it needs a mechanic and a gene-hacker. If you mean making them able to recognize one another as an object of sexual desire from the word go, rather than building an emotional intimacy and realizing that it's starting to make them want to shag each other, that might, though. I don't think there's as high a barrier between uplifts/humans/folks in synths/AGIs/whatever deciding that they [i]want[/i] someone as many would think... Remember, they're all sapient, and have mostly been socialized in a shared culture - not necessarily one that treated them all equally, but a shared culture nontheless. The fact that that neo-avian may be wearing a splicer hermaphrodite morph while the human is currently sleeving a Reaper... That adds [i]complications[/i]. I don't see it as a barrier to initial and subsequent development of desire, though. Now, consummating a relationship between, say, a neo-orca and a humanoid aquatic morph... Or between a splicer hermaphrodite and a reaper... Or a neo-bonobo and a neo-avian... [i]That's[/i] going to be the real trick! Simulspace may be required.
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These things are also threats. If a bachelor buys a never complaining, submissive AI-driven pleasure pod for sex and other household services, would he even want a real relationship? Could he even function in a normal relationship afterwards?
Sure he can. He just needs to hire a good psychosurgeon to start. More seriously, the guy who wants a submissive, AI-driven pleasure pod that never complains is probably not the kind of guy the vast, [i]vast[/i] majority of transhumanity wants to consider taking as a lover in the first place, so they're probably happy he's spending his nights shagging his expensive sex-toy rather than, say, pestering them on mesh dating sites or worse, actually attempting to initiate sexual or romantic contact with them. There might be some super-sub weirdos who want that guy, but chances are they're already taken by someone much more rich. Or else they're the communal sub on the Carnival of the Goat. Those wacky Carnies.
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
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Sun, 2014-01-05 08:19
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
Biology and Pheromones, AKA The Real Birds and the Bees
Honestly, I think you people under play the effects of biology on perceptions, attraction, desire, and your general sexual outlook. Most transsexuals report that their sexual preferences change after being on their hormone therapy. Bisexual MtFs often go from being nearly exclusively female interested to finding guys a hell of a lot more interesting. Even those who identify purely as lesbians start seeing males in a new light. Same goes for FtMs. A friend of ours was a hardcore feminist; and he was raised to believe that male gaze was objectification. After starting testosterone, he found himself staring at women more and more; and he couldn't help himself. Before, he used to think that male gaze was a choice. Now, he's starting to realise that it very well may be beyond his control initially until he realises it. A lot of them also end up finding new partners after transition as well. New interests and desires, their pheromones have changed, and newfound sexual incompatibility drives most couples apart. Sure, they remain friends in better scenarios, but they're not exactly physically and emotionally attracted to each other in the same way. ...I'd be willing to bet things won't change much too hundred years in the future. We're still mammals. Romantic relationships will face rocky paths when one person resleeves into a new biomorph. Chances are, most will fall to the wayside until they find someone new. Or, they end up remaining as really, really close friends. Your sylph and new-avian friend might find each other attractive if they're both sleeved in humanoid morphs. But if she's still sleeved in her new-raven morph, she might not even see him the same way. She may be open and affectionate, constantly pressed on against him and asking to be preened, but she might not see him in a truly sexual light. Avian sexuality is very different; and sex for pleasure is an odd concept. Also, birds can kiss, but it's more akin to how dogs smell and lick each other.
—
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
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Sun, 2014-01-05 11:09
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
I would think that many, if no longer most, folks might be [i]offended[/i] to learn that their lover has been using AR overlays to make them appear more sexually desirable.
I really don't see it as different from makeup, pushup bras and breast implants. It's just used on the other end. I even see lots of people preferring their partner to use it - why wouldn't I want to look hotter to my wife's eyes? I'm sure there are still really self-centered people who insist to look natural, just like there are today, but they seem to be in the majority.
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More seriously, the guy who wants a submissive, AI-driven pleasure pod that never complains is probably not the kind of guy the vast, [i]vast[/i] majority of transhumanity wants to consider taking as a lover in the first place, so they're probably happy he's spending his nights shagging his expensive sex-toy rather than, say, pestering them on mesh dating sites or worse, actually attempting to initiate sexual or romantic contact with them. There might be some super-sub weirdos who want that guy, but chances are they're already taken by someone much more rich.
Many (and probably most) guys are like that though. I'm sure most women would like to find a man that's not like that, but there's not many of them and when it comes down to it, women tend not to find men lacking in masculinity attractive. So on the balance of things, I think you're wrong.
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Sun, 2014-01-05 11:24
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
otohime1978 wrote:Honestly, I
otohime1978 wrote:
Honestly, I think you people under play the effects of biology on perceptions, attraction, desire, and your general sexual outlook. Most transsexuals report that their sexual preferences change after being on their hormone therapy. Bisexual MtFs often go from being nearly exclusively female interested to finding guys a hell of a lot more interesting. Even those who identify purely as lesbians start seeing males in a new light. Same goes for FtMs. A friend of ours was a hardcore feminist; and he was raised to believe that male gaze was objectification. After starting testosterone, he found himself staring at women more and more; and he couldn't help himself. Before, he used to think that male gaze was a choice. Now, he's starting to realise that it very well may be beyond his control initially until he realises it.
That's a great story :) I loathe people like that who are so bigoted towards natural male behavior. I guess they need to actually experience it for themselves to get a broader perspective.
otohime1978 wrote:
A lot of them also end up finding new partners after transition as well. New interests and desires, their pheromones have changed, and newfound sexual incompatibility drives most couples apart. Sure, they remain friends in better scenarios, but they're not exactly physically and emotionally attracted to each other in the same way. ...I'd be willing to bet things won't change much too hundred years in the future. We're still mammals. Romantic relationships will face rocky paths when one person resleeves into a new biomorph. Chances are, most will fall to the wayside until they find someone new. Or, they end up remaining as really, really close friends.
But what if they have an AR overlay that changes their appearance so they still look attractive to each other?
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Sun, 2014-01-05 12:39
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
Smokeskin wrote:That's a
Smokeskin wrote:
That's a great story :) I loathe people like that who are so bigoted towards natural male behavior. I guess they need to actually experience it for themselves to get a broader perspective.
Way to miss the point. People's preferences and priorities change when their hormones change. Changing your morph is a lot more powerful than a hormonal shift. Your entire taste may change from body to body. A male ego in a female fury morph is going to not only start to become depressive, but will end up finding things that may have worried him before alluring. For example, male locker rooms end up smelling [i]very different.[/i] Hell, even your taste in food will change! Pregnant women have stereotypically strange appetites because of nothing more than a simple hormonal shift. Because of this, someone you might have loved and had lustful feelings towards might no longer have quite the same draw as before after you resleeve. Sure, you still love them, but you just will start lacking those lustful feelings: they are no longer physically attractive. I don't expect you to fully comprehend these things, though. Most humans cannot until they have such a transformative experience themselves. Don't read into that too much.
Smokeskin wrote:
But what if they have an AR overlay that changes their appearance so they still look attractive to each other?
Then are they actually in love with their partner, or just the idea of their partner? An AR overlay is rather insulting. Not only that, but there is a lot that an AR overlay just cannot do. There are parts of my body that I am not happy with. I'm not happy with the stretch marks covering my hips, back and breasts; and I'd be happy to change things if I could. However, if I discovered my partner was disguising parts of my body he wasn't okay with, you can bet I would be angry. Accept my morphology, or f* off.
—
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
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Sun, 2014-01-05 14:06
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Then call me "not most men."
Smokeskin wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
I would think that many, if no longer most, folks might be [i]offended[/i] to learn that their lover has been using AR overlays to make them appear more sexually desirable.
Many (and probably most) guys are like that though. I'm sure most women would like to find a man that's not like that, but there's not many of them and when it comes down to it, women tend not to find men lacking in masculinity attractive. So on the balance of things, I think you're wrong.
Because that idea doesn't appeal to me at all. Even with all the "options" available to me, I wouldn't want just some pod with no personality and desires of her own. I want something real and meaningful. For me, sex is nothing without emotional connection. E.g. Love. That's why I asked the question to begin with, I wanted to know if I were to play this game, could I roleplay a romance?
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Mon, 2014-01-06 02:41
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
otohime1978 wrote:Smokeskin
otohime1978 wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
That's a great story :) I loathe people like that who are so bigoted towards natural male behavior. I guess they need to actually experience it for themselves to get a broader perspective.
Way to miss the point. People's preferences and priorities change when their hormones change.
I think you misunderstood me. I loathe hardcore feminists that are bigoted against natural male behavior, and I thought it was great he experienced it for himself for through hormonal change. It's like a racist-living-a-day-as-black fairytale.
Quote:
Changing your morph is a lot more powerful than a hormonal shift. Your entire taste may change from body to body. A male ego in a female fury morph is going to not only start to become depressive, but will end up finding things that may have worried him before alluring. For example, male locker rooms end up smelling [i]very different.[/i] Hell, even your taste in food will change! Pregnant women have stereotypically strange appetites because of nothing more than a simple hormonal shift. Because of this, someone you might have loved and had lustful feelings towards might no longer have quite the same draw as before after you resleeve. Sure, you still love them, but you just will start lacking those lustful feelings: they are no longer physically attractive. I don't expect you to fully comprehend these things, though. Most humans cannot until they have such a transformative experience themselves. Don't read into that too much.
It's pretty clear to me that a lot of people act in ways that I can't really imagine myself doing. The lesson from that is that people are very different and trying to have a theory of mind that's not just modelled on me, but the the multitude of ways that people act. In case it wasn't clear I completely agree that attraction is mostly if not fully base biology, and changing your biology changes that. I think you're placing too little value on love, affection and loyalty though in the case of already established relationships. A disfiguring accident for example will certainly break some relationships apart, but others stay together.
Quote:
Smokeskin wrote:
But what if they have an AR overlay that changes their appearance so they still look attractive to each other?
Then are they actually in love with their partner, or just the idea of their partner? An AR overlay is rather insulting.
Also insulting in the context of an affectionate couple where one changes morph and they use AR overlays to help them stay together? I also don't get the whole "AR overlay is insulting" thing, especially not in the EP age of frequent morph changes and interaction using avatars that don't look like your morph.
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There are parts of my body that I am not happy with. I'm not happy with the stretch marks covering my hips, back and breasts; and I'd be happy to change things if I could. However, if I discovered my partner was disguising parts of my body he wasn't okay with, you can bet I would be angry. Accept my morphology, or f* off.
So you're not using makeup or pushup bras or anything like that? It just seems so inconsistent. You wished your stretch marks where gone, but you won't accept a software solution? Is that technophobia? I personally think that people should care more about pleasing their partner than insisting they should "just love you as you are" (which is largely a fantasy anyway and it strikes me as very self-centered). Today that applies to dieting, staying fit, wearing clothes and makeup, complimenting eachother, doing favors in and out of the bedroom, and in the future it could involve AR overlays.
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Mon, 2014-01-06 05:53
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
It just doesn't feel like
It just doesn't feel like living in the moment, that's all. And I wear pushup bras and makeup all the time. The difference is, however, that I am accenting my own appearance and presenting myself in a way I see fit. When a partner starts using their own AR overlays, they essentially strip that power away from me. Besides, in Eclipse Phase, if my character doesn't like the way she looks, she can just go to one of the many healing vats and change it! A partner using an AR overlay strip away your right to self determination. That is, of course, unless you both agree to use specific overlays. But why spend your money on that when you can spend it on enhanced pheromones and biosculpting? Basically, it comes down to personal determination and the ability to present yourself the way you see fit.
—
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
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Tue, 2014-01-07 22:44
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Hypothetical
otohime1978 wrote:
It just doesn't feel like living in the moment, that's all. And I wear pushup bras and makeup all the time. The difference is, however, that I am accenting my own appearance and presenting myself in a way I see fit. When a partner starts using their own AR overlays, they essentially strip that power away from me. Besides, in Eclipse Phase, if my character doesn't like the way she looks, she can just go to one of the many healing vats and change it! A partner using an AR overlay strip away your right to self determination. That is, of course, unless you both agree to use specific overlays. But why spend your money on that when you can spend it on enhanced pheromones and biosculpting? Basically, it comes down to personal determination and the ability to present yourself the way you see fit.
So what would your ideal romance and partner be like within the setting? Out of simple curiosity. The bars under your posts tell of an interesting character and player behind it.
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Tue, 2014-01-07 22:45
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Same question
Smokeskin wrote:
otohime1978 wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
That's a great story :) I loathe people like that who are so bigoted towards natural male behavior. I guess they need to actually experience it for themselves to get a broader perspective.
Way to miss the point. People's preferences and priorities change when their hormones change.
I think you misunderstood me. I loathe hardcore feminists that are bigoted against natural male behavior, and I thought it was great he experienced it for himself for through hormonal change. It's like a racist-living-a-day-as-black fairytale.
Quote:
Changing your morph is a lot more powerful than a hormonal shift. Your entire taste may change from body to body. A male ego in a female fury morph is going to not only start to become depressive, but will end up finding things that may have worried him before alluring. For example, male locker rooms end up smelling [i]very different.[/i] Hell, even your taste in food will change! Pregnant women have stereotypically strange appetites because of nothing more than a simple hormonal shift. Because of this, someone you might have loved and had lustful feelings towards might no longer have quite the same draw as before after you resleeve. Sure, you still love them, but you just will start lacking those lustful feelings: they are no longer physically attractive. I don't expect you to fully comprehend these things, though. Most humans cannot until they have such a transformative experience themselves. Don't read into that too much.
It's pretty clear to me that a lot of people act in ways that I can't really imagine myself doing. The lesson from that is that people are very different and trying to have a theory of mind that's not just modelled on me, but the the multitude of ways that people act. In case it wasn't clear I completely agree that attraction is mostly if not fully base biology, and changing your biology changes that. I think you're placing too little value on love, affection and loyalty though in the case of already established relationships. A disfiguring accident for example will certainly break some relationships apart, but others stay together.
Quote:
Smokeskin wrote:
But what if they have an AR overlay that changes their appearance so they still look attractive to each other?
Then are they actually in love with their partner, or just the idea of their partner? An AR overlay is rather insulting.
Also insulting in the context of an affectionate couple where one changes morph and they use AR overlays to help them stay together? I also don't get the whole "AR overlay is insulting" thing, especially not in the EP age of frequent morph changes and interaction using avatars that don't look like your morph.
Quote:
There are parts of my body that I am not happy with. I'm not happy with the stretch marks covering my hips, back and breasts; and I'd be happy to change things if I could. However, if I discovered my partner was disguising parts of my body he wasn't okay with, you can bet I would be angry. Accept my morphology, or f* off.
So you're not using makeup or pushup bras or anything like that? It just seems so inconsistent. You wished your stretch marks where gone, but you won't accept a software solution? Is that technophobia? I personally think that people should care more about pleasing their partner than insisting they should "just love you as you are" (which is largely a fantasy anyway and it strikes me as very self-centered). Today that applies to dieting, staying fit, wearing clothes and makeup, complimenting eachother, doing favors in and out of the bedroom, and in the future it could involve AR overlays.
So what would your ideal romance and partner be like within the setting?
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Wed, 2014-01-08 02:55
Rallan Rallan's picture
I'm not too sure if there are
I'm not too sure if there are many generalisations you could make about love and relationships in Eclipse Phase, especially relationships that involve fun transhumanist stuff like enhancing (or swapping) your body to explore your sexuality, dating someone's fork, dating your [i]own[/i] fork, dating outside your species, or dating someone who doesn't have a physical body at the moment (or possibly even dating non-terrestrial life forms, depending on who or what we find on the other side of a Gate). Society in EP is just this incredibly scattered and fragmented mess that's made up from bits of dozens of terrestrial cultures all mixed up together in an alien new environment and trying to figure out all the ramifications of transhumanism in fast forward. And outside of the obvious bastions of conservatism (bio- and otherwise), most of the solar system seems to be just making it all up as they go. Just at a guess though, I'd imagine there's an awful lot of people in the outer system who are squeamish (or outright bigoted) but doing their best to put on a brave face about how progressive and openminded they are :)
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Wed, 2014-01-08 04:52
Holy Holy's picture
I was wondering about a point a bit out of the line of reasoning
If you decide to share a big deal of your thoughts, time and resources with someone it could greatly enhance your ability to achieve things. If you work well with that person it might be that the two of you perform significantly better than a single person or two rather loosely connected friends. Therefore romantic relationships might well be a successesful model from a social point of view. I could as well imagine that that advantage was more useful in past times and just outdated in EP. As you do not need to reproduce anymore society could well be stable over long time spans without families. Social networks and pleasure pods just compensate what you get out of relationships. Romantic relationships could be a rather uncommon thing. You try them once or twice but most people do not stick to them. Would that lead to a disjoint society of self centered individualists? I could well imagine that. Sounds very sick to me --> An interesting gaming experience.
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Wed, 2014-01-08 05:59
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Steel Accord wrote:Smokeskin
Steel Accord wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
More seriously, the guy who wants a submissive, AI-driven pleasure pod that never complains is probably not the kind of guy the vast, vast majority of transhumanity wants to consider taking as a lover in the first place
Many (and probably most) guys are like that though. I'm sure most women would like to find a man that's not like that, but there's not many of them and when it comes down to it, women tend not to find men lacking in masculinity attractive. So on the balance of things, I think you're wrong.
Because that idea doesn't appeal to me at all. Even with all the "options" available to me, I wouldn't want just some pod with no personality and desires of her own. I want something real and meaningful. For me, sex is nothing without emotional connection. E.g. Love.
Sure - I didn't say "all" guys, I said "many and probably most" guys. Most guys like porn too, but of couse some don't watch it. PS: You took the wrong quote from ShadowD, I fixed it above.
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Wed, 2014-01-08 06:06
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
otohime1978 wrote:It just
otohime1978 wrote:
It just doesn't feel like living in the moment, that's all. And I wear pushup bras and makeup all the time. The difference is, however, that I am accenting my own appearance and presenting myself in a way I see fit. When a partner starts using their own AR overlays, they essentially strip that power away from me. [...] A partner using an AR overlay strip away your right to self determination. That is, of course, unless you both agree to use specific overlays. [...] Basically, it comes down to personal determination and the ability to present yourself the way you see fit.
You seem to assume that it is something that was done secretly. That's not necessarily the case. I don't share your idea of getting offended by what goes on in other people's heads. That seems like a source of endless worry and grief. Do you also get mad if people don't love you for the "right reasons", or your partner likes looking at slutty girls?
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Wed, 2014-01-08 06:19
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Holy wrote:
Holy wrote:
Social networks and pleasure pods just compensate what you get out of relationships. Romantic relationships could be a rather uncommon thing. You try them once or twice but most people do not stick to them. Would that lead to a disjoint society of self centered individualists? I could well imagine that. Sounds very sick to me.
I think that could very well be the case. Just like women's economic independence caused a major shift in divorce rates and forced men to treat their partners well, a technological development that allowed men to get a lot of their reasons for being in a relationship covered elsewhere could result in major drop in romantic relationships. Either that, or just like it happened with the women's liberation, the male liberation could end the trend of women being demanding/controlling in relationships.
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Wed, 2014-01-08 06:25
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Steel Accord wrote:Smokeskin
Steel Accord wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
I personally think that people should care more about pleasing their partner than insisting they should "just love you as you are" (which is largely a fantasy anyway and it strikes me as very self-centered). Today that applies to dieting, staying fit, wearing clothes and makeup, complimenting eachother, doing favors in and out of the bedroom, and in the future it could involve AR overlays.
So what would your ideal romance and partner be like within the setting?
I don't see it any different than what it is today - what I described above. I'd probably not be anywhere near as willing to accept less than an equal relationship than I am today though. And I'm hoping AR, VR, and maybe even AI-driven morphs become accepted like porn is today.
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Wed, 2014-01-08 07:30
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
Smokeskin wrote:You seem to
Smokeskin wrote:
You seem to assume that it is something that was done secretly. That's not necessarily the case. I don't share your idea of getting offended by what goes on in other people's heads. That seems like a source of endless worry and grief. Do you also get mad if people don't love you for the "right reasons", or your partner likes looking at slutty girls?
It's only natural for one to care what their partner thinks about them. It's only natural for one to care about what others think about them! Humans are social animals, and what other people think about you is crucial in navigating the social marketplace. In game terms, there is a reason the Rep networks exist! What people think about you matters! If people don't like you, you will have a harder time obtaining assistance when you need it. If my partner has a problem with me, I care! I need to know so I can know if it is something I can fix or change! Or do they take issue with something important to me? Is it something I am unwilling to change and it will become a big problem later on? Is it just a casual, sexual relationship? Is he just in it for the sex? Being in a relationship for the right reasons is important for stability, and whether the breakup is amicable or not. There's is nothing wrong with FWB, but I don't want to start investing emotions in something that is merely casual. There are thoughts that are definitely deal breakers. Not just for me, but for everyone. I'd rather not go into that, too personal. Thoughts matter. Also, I don't mind my partners looking at slutty girls... unless they're under age or something. I'm often the one who points them out to him. Besides, they bring the much needed youthful energy that we lack. You make many assumptions. Just because I am female and care what my partner thinks does not mean I am jealous and controlling. Watch yourself.
Smokeskin wrote:
I think that could very well be the case. Just like women's economic independence caused a major shift in divorce rates and forced men to treat their partners well, a technological development that allowed men to get a lot of their reasons for being in a relationship covered elsewhere could result in major drop in romantic relationships. Either that, or just like it happened with the women's liberation, the male liberation could end the trend of women being demanding/controlling in relationships.
These issues effect homosexual relationships as well. That's called a bad relationship with a controlling asshole. Has nothing to do with gender.
Steel Accord wrote:
So what would your ideal romance and partner be like within the setting? Out of simple curiosity. The bars under your posts tell of an interesting character and player behind it.
I'm biased. But I would like it to be like what it is now. A group of really close friends who share everything. Also, the character bars are more of an ideal, less of what I'm currently playing. Female furies clearly have the most fun; and I like how asyncs are a bit broken in the head. So it's double fun! "Oh goddess, I am laying eggs!" "What?!" "S - sorry, it's... it's nothing."
—
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
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Wed, 2014-01-08 11:15
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
Not necessarily
Holy wrote:
If you decide to share a big deal of your thoughts, time and resources with someone it could greatly enhance your ability to achieve things. If you work well with that person it might be that the two of you perform significantly better than a single person or two rather loosely connected friends. Therefore romantic relationships might well be a successesful model from a social point of view. I could as well imagine that that advantage was more useful in past times and just outdated in EP. As you do not need to reproduce anymore society could well be stable over long time spans without families. Social networks and pleasure pods just compensate what you get out of relationships. Romantic relationships could be a rather uncommon thing. You try them once or twice but most people do not stick to them. Would that lead to a disjoint society of self centered individualists? I could well imagine that. Sounds very sick to me --> An interesting gaming experience.
Trends always come and go, but it's impossible to say the entire species would conform to any ideal. That's not even including uplifts and AGI who aren't, and may never have been, human and therefore may not conform to human standards at all. All this, combined with my personal golden rule that individualism is the ultimate wild card in social models, I say there will always be those who are compassionate and selfless whether it's popular or not. Just as those who will be selfish, whether it's popular or not. Coming from a libertarian (extropian) point of view, I don't think being self-centered necessarily makes one a malcontent. (Big Ayn Rand fan ^_^) Nor does it preclude the want for romance. You can have all the simulspaces, pleasure pods, and good rep you want or need, but there is something ineffably unique about sharing your heart and soul with another person. Every relationship is different and broadens our understanding of ourselves through the eyes of another.
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Wed, 2014-01-08 11:24
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
On the ball
Rallan wrote:
I'm not too sure if there are many generalisations you could make about love and relationships in Eclipse Phase, especially relationships that involve fun transhumanist stuff like enhancing (or swapping) your body to explore your sexuality, dating someone's fork, dating your [i]own[/i] fork, dating outside your species, or dating someone who doesn't have a physical body at the moment (or possibly even dating non-terrestrial life forms, depending on who or what we find on the other side of a Gate). Society in EP is just this incredibly scattered and fragmented mess that's made up from bits of dozens of terrestrial cultures all mixed up together in an alien new environment and trying to figure out all the ramifications of transhumanism in fast forward. And outside of the obvious bastions of conservatism (bio- and otherwise), most of the solar system seems to be just making it all up as they go. Just at a guess though, I'd imagine there's an awful lot of people in the outer system who are squeamish (or outright bigoted) but doing their best to put on a brave face about how progressive and openminded they are :)
That's actually a very astute observation of the social and cultural stance of the setting. As much as I enjoy some things about EP, it's not a future I want. Oh sure, I'm a transhumanist all right! Brain mapping, resleeving, augmentations, AGIs, all of these are my bread and butter. But here's the thing, none of this was a choice. The Fall took all of transhumanity and threw them all into the stars. Anyone who didn't escape via ego-casting more than likely died. It's actually deeply ironic. For as much as this setting's brand of transhuman tech allegedly makes Darwinian evolution obsolete, it was exactly that kind of "do or die" environment that made the setting what it is. Almost makes one wonder whether transhumans are actually that much better off than us.
—
Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Wed, 2014-01-08 14:18
Songtress Songtress's picture
Romance in an EP setting can
Romance in an EP setting can be just about anything you want it to be. Its wide and varied. Deep and Shallow. Its what people would like to see, what people would love to see, what people might be absolutely terrified of seeing or expereincing, might be someone's cup of tea.
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Thu, 2014-01-16 23:06
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
This thread reminds me how
This thread reminds me how sad I am that rules for AGIs making babies by merging codebases didn't fit in word count for TH. Also that we never went into the details of gay Amazon River Dolphins having blowhole sex in a sidebar about neo-cetaceans. Because damn. Blowhole sex.
—
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
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Thu, 2014-01-16 23:45
Leodiensian Leodiensian's picture
Personally, I'm holding out
Personally, I'm holding out hope for another Meathab to show up so the two space stations can space-fuck. In space. MeathabXMeathab is my MeatOTP
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Fri, 2014-01-17 02:23
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
jackgraham wrote:
jackgraham wrote:
Also that we never went into the details of gay Amazon River Dolphins having blowhole sex in a sidebar about neo-cetaceans. Because damn. Blowhole sex.
Haha :) didn't have to be gays though. There's also an option for some comedy for a neo-dolphin sleeved in a humanoid morph. Some might be offended if you in the heat of the moment call their mouth a blowhole...
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Fri, 2014-01-17 03:44
Rallan Rallan's picture
jackgraham wrote:This thread
jackgraham wrote:
This thread reminds me how sad I am that rules for AGIs making babies by merging codebases didn't fit in word count for TH. Also that we never went into the details of gay Amazon River Dolphins having blowhole sex in a sidebar about neo-cetaceans. Because damn. Blowhole sex.
Man, you know you're a jaded dolphin when sticking your dick up someone's nostril starts to look like a good idea.
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Fri, 2014-01-17 03:59
Leodiensian Leodiensian's picture
Dolphin sex is creepy enough
Dolphin sex is creepy enough without the weird fetishes made possible through human intelligence and socialization. Or possible exsurgent infection.
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Fri, 2014-01-17 06:23
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
jackgraham wrote:This thread
jackgraham wrote:
This thread reminds me how sad I am that rules for AGIs making babies by merging codebases didn't fit in word count for TH.
That actually sounds like something I'm genuinely sorry we didn't see. Web supplement?
Smokeskin wrote:
jackgraham wrote:
Also that we never went into the details of gay Amazon River Dolphins having blowhole sex in a sidebar about neo-cetaceans. Because damn. Blowhole sex.
Haha :) didn't have to be gays though.
Could be hermaphrodites, too, aye. Or - I bet some clever ergonomics engineer devised a strapon for ceteceans at some point. Dolphin pegging, amirite?
Quote:
There's also an option for some comedy for a neo-dolphin sleeved in a humanoid morph. Some might be offended if you in the heat of the moment call their mouth a blowhole...
I don't think the mouth maps to the blowhole so much as the beak.. Which, granted, she'd probably still take offense too unless she was a neo-avian or neo-octopus.
Rallan wrote:
Man, you know you're a jaded dolphin when sticking your dick up someone's nostril starts to look like a good idea.
It takes a long, long while to get that jaded, hopefully. Especially when you factor in different morphs and different combinations [i]of[/i] those morphs, it could take centuries before that seems like a good idea. Hopefully...
Leodiensian wrote:
Dolphin sex is creepy enough without the weird fetishes made possible through human intelligence and socialization. Or possible exsurgent infection.
Maybe that's why the TITANs unleashed modified forms of the Exsurgent virus and GTFO the solar system... We were too kinky for them, so they decided to wipe us out, and when that failed and they realized we were going to continue to breed, they decided to turn tail and [i]run[/i].
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
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Sat, 2014-01-18 22:17
Maina Maina's picture
I feel as though people are
I feel as though people are putting too much emphasis on the morph side of things. This is romance. The humans of Eclipse Phase are largely past the idea of gender as being anything more than a social construct. The core book even suggests that most people consider love to be a bond that transcends bodies, as bodies can and do change over time. I don't think Transhumans have the same attachment to physical appearance that we do. Perfect, risk-free cosmetic surgery is available to anyone for a pittance. At least, anyone not at the bottom rung of the inner system. A large percentage of the population isn't even in their birth body anymore. As it says in the tagline of the game: Your body is a shell. Change it. No more "this is how I was born, so I'm gonna be proud of it." Because only flats stay the way they were -born-. Your choice of body in Eclipse Phase has more in common with your choice of car in the modern world than any inherent value that you as a person may have. Though there are always exceptions. It's probably easy to assume someone in a gender-neutral morph is not interested in a relationship. Neotenics and such do have their stigmas that would turn people off. Largely, I think courtship in Eclipse Phase is going to be focused on Ego more than Morph. Especially with public mesh profiles likely doubling as dating profiles. Even if the bodies are incompatible, they are perfectly compatible in virtual space, where it feels just about as real as the real thing.
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Sun, 2014-01-19 06:54
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
O
Maina wrote:
I feel as though people are putting too much emphasis on the morph side of things. This is romance. The humans of Eclipse Phase are largely past the idea of gender as being anything more than a social construct.
Are you suggesting that they made the brains of male and female morphs identical? If so, why? At least the Fury morph has sex differences listed (and in a way that suggests that these differences remain). You also get negative modifiers on resleeving tests when you change sex.
Quote:
I don't think Transhumans have the same attachment to physical appearance that we do. Perfect, risk-free cosmetic surgery is available to anyone for a pittance. At least, anyone not at the bottom rung of the inner system.
But that would place an even higher focus on physical appearance, wouldn't it? There'd be no reason not to look attractive, aside from a conscious decision to not care about yourself or your partner. That's unlikely to be the mainstream choice - egocentric, unattractive people are hardly going to be popular partners.
Quote:
A large percentage of the population isn't even in their birth body anymore. As it says in the tagline of the game: Your body is a shell. Change it. No more "this is how I was born, so I'm gonna be proud of it." Because only flats stay the way they were -born-.
I don't get what you're saying. That's the argument you hear from people who don't care for their looks, isn't it? The girl who diets, works out, gets breast implants and hair extensions, she's the one playing the "your body is a shell, change it" game, isn't she?
Quote:
Largely, I think courtship in Eclipse Phase is going to be focused on Ego more than Morph. Especially with public mesh profiles likely doubling as dating profiles. Even if the bodies are incompatible, they are perfectly compatible in virtual space, where it feels just about as real as the real thing.
I can certainly see how VR relationships could work (and I also mentioned AR above). As the setting is described, there's a big focus on the physical side of things, and in many places a strong preference for biomorphs.
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Sun, 2014-01-19 08:56
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
One interesting thing here is
One interesting thing here is that with looks being changed as easily as clothes I'd guess that personality matters more. When you can change your looks quite easily and anyone can look like michael mcmanus or mathilda may I'd guess other Issues would rise In prominence. As an emotional buffer and safety net I could see anonymous dating thru forks, the forks might report back to the original with an aye or nay opinion on going further. Some data sites might even have anonymous identical shells for forks to download into so looks were unimportant. There obviously still is love in the EP setting as the very furst introfic had the protagonist desperately seeking her lover and willing to make deals with various powers to find her.
—

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

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Sun, 2014-01-19 09:55
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
You people are speculating on
You people are speculating on what it's like to change bodies and it's effects on romance. We don't have to speculate. Transsexuals exist. They know what it's like to essentially go through physical body changes in essence to have a new body. They universally report that their romances and preferences in partners change after the fact. Hell, people [i]smell different to them after they start HRT![/i] Feelings of romance change. Partners who are supportive find themselves less sexually attracted or lose interest all together. Some people have minor dietary preference shifts after liver transplants because of subtle changes in their metabolism. And changing your morph is vastly different than changing your hormones or transplanting organs. The effects it has on your personality over time will be a lot more extreme. Enough to cause severe dysphoria in some people trying to reconcile their memories with their current paradigms that seem to be in conflict with each other. Changing morphs changes [i]you...[/i] and the rules support it. If you didn't change, then how come your aptitudes change when you enter a new morph? This will have far reaching effects beyond increasing skills. It is enough to change your entire outlook on life itself. It is enough to change your personality, your soul, if it were. Remember this.
—
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
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Sun, 2014-01-19 11:05
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Smokeskin wrote:jackgraham
Smokeskin wrote:
jackgraham wrote:
Also that we never went into the details of gay Amazon River Dolphins having blowhole sex in a sidebar about neo-cetaceans. Because damn. Blowhole sex.
Haha :) didn't have to be gays though.
Oh, no, this is an actual thing with Amazon river dolphins. The guys form pair bonds, usually between an older & a younger mail. Blowhole pegging has been observed predominantly in these male/male couplings.
—
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
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Sun, 2014-01-19 11:08
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Psychosurgery = easy fix for
Psychosurgery = easy fix for relationship problems. If this concept horrifies you, well, that's why we write SF in the first place.
—
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
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Sun, 2014-01-19 11:17
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
jackgraham wrote
jackgraham wrote:
Psychosurgery = easy fix for relationship problems. If this concept horrifies you, well, that's why we write SF in the first place.
New BladeRunner esque campaign idea! Thanks. Indeed. The ability to change one's self through such means is quite terrifying. Especially if one has no say in the matter. Entire horror films are based around this premise.
—
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
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Sun, 2014-01-19 11:29
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
the changes undergone by a
the changes undergone by a transexual are not the same as resleving. being at once more extreme and more mild. current hormone replacement and gender reassignment surgery are crude compared to the technology of 10AF, the hormones of sexual preference and attraction are the same as the hormones for regulating sex organ development and regulation. our understanding of these hormonal pathways is rudimentary and our ability to manipulate them a crude bludgeon. it has been suggested that the bio-engenered morphs available in EP would be specifically designed not to interfere with the ego's sexual desires. by carefully designing hormone pathways sexuality can be decoupled from the functioning of sexual organs. when your ego is transferred to a dissimilar morph the chemical receptors for sexuality are deliberately arranged in a manner to reproduce your prior sexuality. just as a cyber brain or info-morph will simulate the same hormonal patterns you had prior to uploading. given the impressive ability of a ego bridge to rearrange neuron links even when writing to a flat this could be achieved, although possibly not so easily. it would not be more than a few hundred neurons reconnected to make a strait man gay. so when a strait woman sleeves into a male flat that had been strait the ego bridge rearranges those connections, suppresses some receptors and enhances others so the finished state is effectively a strait female ego in a gay male body (perhaps a bit more nuanced than that). while this will not remove all psychological issues, especially if the ego strongly self identifies as a given gender, at least you wont be left looking at your partner wondering "what ever possessed be to spend 5 hours a day touching that person"
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Sun, 2014-01-19 11:51
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
It that must not be named
It that must not be named wrote:
One interesting thing here is that with looks being changed as easily as clothes I'd guess that personality matters more. When you can change your looks quite easily and anyone can look like michael mcmanus or mathilda may I'd guess other Issues would rise In prominence.
I'd argue it is the opposite. Fashion became a really big deal when everyone could afford lots of fancy clothing. When modern exercise and diet principles were discovered and plastic surgery came along, it let to massive focus on the perfect body. I imagine the people in EP are more focused on perfect looks and regularly climbing into the healing vat to get biosculpted into the latest fashion in jaw angles and leg length. "Look at that calf shape, she's just soooo last season."
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Sun, 2014-01-19 12:19
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
jackgraham wrote:Smokeskin
jackgraham wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
jackgraham wrote:
Also that we never went into the details of gay Amazon River Dolphins having blowhole sex in a sidebar about neo-cetaceans. Because damn. Blowhole sex.
Haha :) didn't have to be gays though.
Oh, no, this is an actual thing with Amazon river dolphins. The guys form pair bonds, usually between an older & a younger mail. Blowhole pegging has been observed predominantly in these male/male couplings.
Interesting. I didn't know that. Still, i wouldn't put it past straight male dolphins to also be inclined to peg her in the blowhole. I sooo hope my wife doesn't check my browser history tonight and see this without getting the context. HI WIFEY, IF YOU SEE THIS ASK ME WHAT IT'S ABOUT, OK?
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Sun, 2014-01-19 13:19
Maina Maina's picture
Smokeskin wrote:Are you
Smokeskin wrote:
Are you suggesting that they made the brains of male and female morphs identical? If so, why? At least the Fury morph has sex differences listed (and in a way that suggests that these differences remain). You also get negative modifiers on resleeving tests when you change sex.
I'm suggesting that it's explicitly written that the ego bridge rewires the neurons in a morph's brain when you resleeve. It is also explicitly written that many people swap biological sex at least once in their lifetime, if not more. I'm also suggesting that everything I said that you are responding to in this section was explicitly stated in the section of the core book entitled: Gender, sexuality, and relationships. It is a fairly relevant section to this discussion. I suggest you read it, since it's where I got the material for everything I posted. Material that you say you don't understand, apparently? Also, the resleeving tests are not about differing psychology. The integration test is due to the physical differences. Think of the clumsy awkward teen having to get used to their changing body. It's like that, but more extreme. The alienation test is for the dysphoria of having your personal self-image changed. None of this has to do with gender.
Smokeskin wrote:
But that would place an even higher focus on physical appearance, wouldn't it? There'd be no reason not to look attractive, aside from a conscious decision to not care about yourself or your partner. That's unlikely to be the mainstream choice - egocentric, unattractive people are hardly going to be popular partners.
I was practically quoting the book on this one. Here: most people continue to view marriage as a bond of love and trust—an emotional attachment that transcends bodies, as either partner may change morphs at any time.
Smokeskin wrote:
I don't get what you're saying. That's the argument you hear from people who don't care for their looks, isn't it? The girl who diets, works out, gets breast implants and hair extensions, she's the one playing the "your body is a shell, change it" game, isn't she?
That's precisely my point. People of today are taught to be proud of their body, regardless of how it looks, because you are effectively stuck with it. People might be proud of their bodies in Eclipse Phase, but it's the difference in being proud of your car because you built it yourself and being proud of your car because you could afford to buy it. It's a very different sense here. One has less personal attachment and sentimental value. If you don't like the way someone looks, it's a far less grave insult in Eclipse Phase, because appearance isn't who you are, but what you chose to be.
Smokeskin wrote:
I can certainly see how VR relationships could work (and I also mentioned AR above). As the setting is described, there's a big focus on the physical side of things, and in many places a strong preference for biomorphs.
There's a big focus in daily life on the physical side of things for a lot of people. Romance is not daily life. If you're looking for commitment, you're looking for a long-term commitment. One that very likely is going to outlive the current bodies you two inhabit, if all goes as planned. I recommend reading "GENDER, SEXUALITY, AND RELATIONSHIPS" on page 45. It's where I got all these ideas you "don't get".
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Sun, 2014-01-19 13:42
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
Maina wrote:If you don't like
Maina wrote:
If you don't like the way someone looks, it's a far less grave insult in Eclipse Phase, because appearance isn't who you are, but what you chose to be.
...yeah, no, that makes it all the more worse. If you cannot see how the two are essentially the same thing when you can cheaply change how you appear to look like anything....
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[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
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Sun, 2014-01-19 13:53
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
Gender and self image are
Gender and self image are more or less the same thing, you know.
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[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
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Sun, 2014-01-19 16:43
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Maina wrote:Smokeskin wrote
Maina wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
Are you suggesting that they made the brains of male and female morphs identical? If so, why? At least the Fury morph has sex differences listed (and in a way that suggests that these differences remain). You also get negative modifiers on resleeving tests when you change sex.
I'm suggesting that it's explicitly written that the ego bridge rewires the neurons in a morph's brain when you resleeve. It is also explicitly written that many people swap biological sex at least once in their lifetime, if not more.
It's not that simple. The morph affects your thoughts and emotions too. For example straight from the Fury morph entry: To offset tendencies for unruliness and macho behavior patterns, furies feature gene sequences promoting pack mentalities and cooperation, and they tend to be biologically female
Quote:
I'm also suggesting that everything I said that you are responding to in this section was explicitly stated in the section of the core book entitled: Gender, sexuality, and relationships. It is a fairly relevant section to this discussion. I suggest you read it, since it's where I got the material for everything I posted. Material that you say you don't understand, apparently?
This is an excerpt from the section you refer to: To many transhumans, gender has become an outdated social construct with no basis in biology. After all, it’s hard to give credence to gender roles when an ego can easily modify their sex, switch skins, or experience the lives of others via XP. Though most transhumans still adhere to the gender associated with their original biological sex It seems clear to me that the context is about gender roles disappearing - not actual physical and psychological differences between the genders. I don't see I said I didn't understand any material. I asked about the deeper meaning of what you were saying, and referred to the Fury morph entry, so you could adress that. You chose not to look at it.
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Also, the resleeving tests are not about differing psychology. The integration test is due to the physical differences. Think of the clumsy awkward teen having to get used to their changing body. It's like that, but more extreme. The alienation test is for the dysphoria of having your personal self-image changed. None of this has to do with gender.
That's what you say. But the physical differences between the sexes really aren't that big, yet you take a -10 modifier, which is equal to the modifier you take for sleeving into a synthmorph, or for uplifts changing species. It seems to me there's more going on than just some minor swapping of sex organs.
Quote:
Smokeskin wrote:
But that would place an even higher focus on physical appearance, wouldn't it? There'd be no reason not to look attractive, aside from a conscious decision to not care about yourself or your partner. That's unlikely to be the mainstream choice - egocentric, unattractive people are hardly going to be popular partners.
I was practically quoting the book on this one. Here: most people continue to view marriage as a bond of love and trust—an emotional attachment that transcends bodies, as either partner may change morphs at any time.
I really don't see how this in any way means they don't focus on physical appearance? I have a bond of love and trust with my wife, but I certainly still care about her looks. And if she changed body, I'd still love the person inside, but I'd also damn well want her to look good still.
Quote:
Smokeskin wrote:
I don't get what you're saying. That's the argument you hear from people who don't care for their looks, isn't it? The girl who diets, works out, gets breast implants and hair extensions, she's the one playing the "your body is a shell, change it" game, isn't she?
That's precisely my point. People of today are taught to be proud of their body, regardless of how it looks, because you are effectively stuck with it.
People are proud of their bodies regardless of how it looks? I'm sorry, but I don't see that in western culture at all.
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If you don't like the way someone looks, it's a far less grave insult in Eclipse Phase, because appearance isn't who you are, but what you chose to be.
Exactly - that's what you chose to be. That's why being ugly means you're egocentric in EP. You're saying you can't be bothered to look good for your partner's enjoyment, even though it takes minimal effort. At least today, dieting and working out and putting on makeup takes a lot of hard work and self discipline, and the way nature made you there is very little you can do about that - breast implants and some age-hiding stuff like botox and face and eye lifts is pretty much it. But that's not the case in EP. From EP 3rd page 309: COSMETIC MODS In an age of universal beauty, artistic cosmetic modification of your body is commonly pursued by many transhumans. Body mods once considered dangerous or edgy are now safe and commonplace, especially among factions like the anarchists, scum, or brinkers. Bodysculpting: If your morph’s enhanced physique isn’t enough, you can take it further with custom bodysculpting such as as elongated ears or fingers, nose alteration, hair addition/removal, feathers, exotic eyes, snakeskin, endowed genitalia, and more unusual physical alterations. [Low] For Low cost! That's amazing. Plus, of course, your morph is likely to beautiful and perfectly fit and healthy from the beginning.
Quote:
Smokeskin wrote:
I can certainly see how VR relationships could work (and I also mentioned AR above). As the setting is described, there's a big focus on the physical side of things, and in many places a strong preference for biomorphs.
There's a big focus in daily life on the physical side of things for a lot of people. Romance is not daily life. If you're looking for commitment, you're looking for a long-term commitment. One that very likely is going to outlive the current bodies you two inhabit, if all goes as planned. I recommend reading "GENDER, SEXUALITY, AND RELATIONSHIPS" on page 45. It's where I got all these ideas you "don't get".
What I don't get is why you see some sort of contradiction between long-term commitment and attraction. There's not - they go hand in hand. If I stopped caring about how I looked to my wife, that would be a sure sign I didn't respect her anymore. And I'd certainly question her commitment if she let herself go.* Of course we've aged 10 years since we met and with 2 kids there's focus on working out and dressing up so the standard is different, but in EP none of those things apply - between basic biomods and Low-cost cosmetic sculpting, you could be looking perfect for practically no effort. * I know lots of people let themselves go. Some couples do it together - there is a certain in appeal in enjoying the things in life that ruin your looks, and if both agree that's the way they want to go, that could work. The problem comes when one decides to enjoy the sweet life and just doesn't care that their partner doesn't agree - that rarely goes down well.
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Sun, 2014-01-19 21:29
Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture
On the contrary
jackgraham wrote:
Psychosurgery = easy fix for relationship problems. If this concept horrifies you, well, that's why we write SF in the first place.
I would find that useful. If my wife (in-game) and I were starting to feel the centuries ware on our affection for each other. We can undergo the procedure and have our passion restored!
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Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!
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Mon, 2014-01-20 01:23
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
Smokeskin wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
From EP 3rd page 309: COSMETIC MODS In an age of universal beauty, artistic cosmetic modification of your body is commonly pursued by many transhumans. Body mods once considered dangerous or edgy are now safe and commonplace, especially among factions like the anarchists, scum, or brinkers. Bodysculpting: If your morph’s enhanced physique isn’t enough, you can take it further with custom bodysculpting such as as elongated ears or fingers, nose alteration, hair addition/removal, feathers, exotic eyes, snakeskin, endowed genitalia, and more unusual physical alterations. [Low]
given the low cost and inconvenience of body modification i would expect keeping a unatractive body to be treated similarly to pore personal grooming. today if you show up to a party with a crooked nose and a limp eyelid people wont be attracted to you but they will not consciously judge you for it. if you show up to a party waring your painters overalls with dry paint on your fingers and a couple of drops on your face people will consciously judge you for not having a shower and clean clothes before a party. in EP these situations would be much closer. being ugly is a deliberate or negligent act. both society at large and potential lovers will judge you harshly for failing to correct it. if you change morph or are injured while in a relationship and are now ugly your spouse would expect you to do something about that soon and failing to do so would be like failing to change out of painters overalls for diner.
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Mon, 2014-01-20 11:27
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Steel Accord wrote:jackgraham
Steel Accord wrote:
jackgraham wrote:
Psychosurgery = easy fix for relationship problems. If this concept horrifies you, well, that's why we write SF in the first place.
I would find that useful. If my wife (in-game) and I were starting to feel the centuries ware on our affection for each other. We can undergo the procedure and have our passion restored!
Watts has this whole subplot in _Blindsight_ where the main prot, who's about 270 degrees from neurotypical to begin with, dates a psychosurgeon. Hilarity ensues, but it's Peter Watts hilarity, which means it's terrible awful uh-oh funny. That book & a number of others I've read (David Ely, _Journal of the Flood Year_, is another example) incline toward the "VR will make relationships obsolete" trope. I have to say, I think there's something to this trope. If you're living in a post-scarcity world, you don't need a partner for physical or economic security. You don't need them to be physically present to fulfill your need for touch if simulspace provides a perfect illusion. Hell, you could have a fuckbuddy, a sapiosexual conversation partner, and a cuddle buddy -- and you could run three forks to go on dates with all of them in one evening, then merge up at the end and get the fulfillment of all three. We haven't played with this much in EP, because most of the material we write focuses on Firewall agents going on adventures. But for my money, it seems likely that much of the post-relationship era activity described above hit its high water mark prior to the Fall. The resurgent humanism of post-Fall transhumanity is probably a lot friendlier than in the recent past to physical relationships for the same cultural reasons that it favors humanoid morphs over 12-legged amphibious space unicorns.* _________ *No. No, I will not. You stat that one up.
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J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
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Mon, 2014-01-20 12:38
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
How humanity will handle the
How humanity will handle the temptation from full immersion VR (or as an infomorph in simulspace) is a terrifying question - I suspect most would go that way with EVERYTHING, not just partners and sex. Similarly, AIs and infomorphs running at faster than human speeds, psychosurgically altered for monomanic devotion towards work, would take over all jobs. Nick Bostrom looked at the problem of such non-eudaimonic agents, and his analysis isn't exactly comforting. But that makes for a setting that is very boring to play in for us baseline human RPG players. I think you guys did a wonderful job at getting rid of all those singularity problems - it happened, the bad guys went away, and what is left of humanity is highly biochauvinistic or at least paranoid of infolife. It makes it possible to have a setting with transhumans we can relate to and willingly suspend disbelief without having to jump through too many hoops. If you really wanted to hit the point home, you could have lots of humans going digital before the Fall and getting corrupted or egonapped by the TITANs. Or maybe they just got plugged out by physical morphs who needed the power for life support and their computational mass for habs. It SUCKS to be infolife in a disaster situation.
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Mon, 2014-01-20 12:47
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
jackgraham wrote:The
jackgraham wrote:
The resurgent humanism of post-Fall transhumanity is probably a lot friendlier than in the recent past to physical relationships for the same cultural reasons that it favors humanoid morphs over 12-legged amphibious space unicorns.* _________ *No. No, I will not. You stat that one up.
Challenge accepted. ======= [url=http://eclipsephase.com/sleipnir-pod-biomorph-courtesy-jackgrahams-chall..., it's done.[/url]
—
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
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Thu, 2014-01-23 10:37
bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
Getting back to the original
Getting back to the original thread a bit, I found this article yesterday on Wired: [url=http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2014/01/how-to-hack-okcupid/]How A Math Genius Hacked OKCupid To Find True Love[/url]. Reading through his process, I could easily see that sort of thing being handled by one's muse in EP: Filling out an honest compatibility questionnaire is time consuming and lengthy, and people aren't always very good at being honest with themselves on them, but if you give your muse permission to fill it out, that sort of thing gets much easier to accomplish.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

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Thu, 2014-01-23 14:28
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
bibliophile20 wrote:Getting
bibliophile20 wrote:
Getting back to the original thread a bit, I found this article yesterday on Wired: [url=http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2014/01/how-to-hack-okcupid/]How A Math Genius Hacked OKCupid To Find True Love[/url]. Reading through his process, I could easily see that sort of thing being handled by one's muse in EP: Filling out an honest compatibility questionnaire is time consuming and lengthy, and people aren't always very good at being honest with themselves on them, but if you give your muse permission to fill it out, that sort of thing gets much easier to accomplish.
Man, I would love to read and fill out the kinds of dating profile questionnaires you'd get on the Circle-@ list... Where do you [i]find[/i] this stuff, Bibliophile?
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Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]
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