Forking nomenclature? <Name><n+1> just doesn't cut it.

Thu, 2013-12-26 11:50

#2

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture

My group insists on using

My group insists on using mathematical nomenclature for their temporary forks, which makes my head hurt--to me, the original is the one that should be termed -prime, not the first fork!

—

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Thu, 2013-12-26 12:43

#3

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

bibliophile20 wrote:My group

bibliophile20 wrote:
My group insists on using mathematical nomenclature for their temporary forks, which makes my head hurt--to me, the original is the one that should be termed -prime, not the first fork!

Yeaaaah, I'd agree with that. If you're going to use a -prime designation and you're not playing a [i]Transformers[/i] game, it should definitely refer to the most original fork out there.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Thu, 2013-12-26 12:57

#4

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture

Personally, my general

Personally, my general feeling on the question is that temporary forks, made either with the intention to reintegrate or delete, typically use either numeric or alphanumeric codes to designate themselves, but forks that are intended to be split off permanently will typically take new names. (although not always, which resulted in a hilarious bit in my campaign, when a Firewall psychosurgeon on one exoplanet referred, for further treatment, one of the PCs to himself--on another exoplanet). Also, Banyans are a special case, where they all keep the same name, or close to it, but will designate themselfs differently for logistical purposes.

—

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Thu, 2013-12-26 13:02

#5

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

bibliophile20 wrote

bibliophile20 wrote:
Personally, my general feeling on the question is that temporary forks, made either with the intention to reintegrate or delete, typically use either numeric or alphanumeric codes to designate themselves, but forks that are intended to be split off permanently will typically take new names. (although not always, which resulted in a hilarious bit in my campaign, when a Firewall psychosurgeon on one exoplanet referred, for further treatment, one of the PCs to himself--on another exoplanet).

If you can't trust the qualifications of your own Alpha Fork, who [i]can[/i] you trust? :) Hell of a referral, though. "Who referred you?" "You did." "I did?" "Yes. You referred me to yourself." "I must have a high opinion of my own abilities, then." "You tell me, Doc." :)

Quote:
Also, Banyans are a special case, where they all keep the same name, or close to it, but will designate themselfs differently for logistical purposes.

Banyans?

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Thu, 2013-12-26 15:17

#6

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:If you

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
If you can't trust the qualifications of your own Alpha Fork, who [i]can[/i] you trust? :) Hell of a referral, though. "Who referred you?" "You did." "I did?" "Yes. You referred me to yourself." "I must have a high opinion of my own abilities, then." "You tell me, Doc." :)

Heh. Yeah, it's been entertaining--I've been running a group of autonomist NPCs based out of Portal. They fork themselves every time a new colony is started up and send the forks there, so by this point, there are about 200 alpha forks of each of them--the idea being that the group has all of the necessary skills to build a colony from the ground up, as well as an extensive blueprint library. So there have been a few occasions when the PCs are talking with the fork of a friend from Portal... that split off before they met. This has resulted in a fair amount of humor. :D I'll have the share the writeup for the group when I'm done fleshing them out.

Quote:
Banyans?

Ah. Right. Fanon. :) [url=http://www.aleph.se/EclipsePhase/Merge.pdf]Banyans[/url] (pg 3).

—

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Thu, 2013-12-26 17:53

#7

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

bibliophile20 wrote:Heh.

bibliophile20 wrote:
Heh. Yeah, it's been entertaining--I've been running a group of autonomist NPCs based out of Portal. They fork themselves every time a new colony is started up and send the forks there, so by this point, there are about 200 alpha forks of each of them--the idea being that the group has all of the necessary skills to build a colony from the ground up, as well as an extensive blueprint library. So there have been a few occasions when the PCs are talking with the fork of a friend from Portal... that split off before they met. This has resulted in a fair amount of humor. :D I'll have the share the writeup for the group when I'm done fleshing them out.

Wow. That's, uh... [i]Prolific[/i], to say the least.

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Banyans?
Ah. Right. Fanon. :) [url=http://www.aleph.se/EclipsePhase/Merge.pdf]Banyans[/url] (pg 3).

I see, I see. Hrm... That easy merging could be a useful trait to have. Would be nice to have a second step-up that like, increased the timeframes on merging tables by twice, too.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Thu, 2013-12-26 20:13

#8

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Wow.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Wow. That's, uh... [i]Prolific[/i], to say the least.

. Eh, it's only two dozen-ish characters, and I'm not fleshing them out beyond motivations and one to three paragraphs of descriptions for each. Not even giving stats, because the ones on Portal have been training and have diverged massively from their oldest forks, who have been busy settling their respective worlds. It's more of a writing exercise in coming up with reasonably unique/individual characters than anything else--which is funny, when you consider it, as I'm coming up with "unique" characters that are intended to be copied and have multiple instances on multiple planets. Nurse Joy and Officer Jenny, eat your hearts out. :)

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Banyans?
Ah. Right. Fanon. :) [url=http://www.aleph.se/EclipsePhase/Merge.pdf]Banyans[/url] (pg 3).
I see, I see. Hrm... That easy merging could be a useful trait to have. Would be nice to have a second step-up that like, increased the timeframes on merging tables by twice, too.

As a GM, I personally wouldn't allow most of the merits from that bit now that Transhuman has been released, but if you're going to be a Banyan that doesn't go insane in the first month, Hardening against Continuity stress from Forking, Phoenix, and Ego Plasticity are all a must.

—

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Sat, 2013-12-28 10:06

#9

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

bibliophile20 wrote

bibliophile20 wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Wow. That's, uh... [i]Prolific[/i], to say the least.
. Eh, it's only two dozen-ish characters, and I'm not fleshing them out beyond motivations and one to three paragraphs of descriptions for each. Not even giving stats, because the ones on Portal have been training and have diverged massively from their oldest forks, who have been busy settling their respective worlds. It's more of a writing exercise in coming up with reasonably unique/individual characters than anything else--which is funny, when you consider it, as I'm coming up with "unique" characters that are intended to be copied and have multiple instances on multiple planets. Nurse Joy and Officer Jenny, eat your hearts out. :)

Hahahaaaahaaaaaaah! Yeah, that does make it easier on the GM, huh? You only have to come up with two dozen-ish characters then you can copypasta them any time your PCs crash the gate with a few divergant quirks. Saves time, yo.

Quote:
As a GM, I personally wouldn't allow most of the merits from that bit now that Transhuman has been released, but if you're going to be a Banyan that doesn't go insane in the first month, Hardening against Continuity stress from Forking, Phoenix, and Ego Plasticity are all a must.

Yeah... That is one of the quirks of EP. It says how there are people who resleeve on a daily or near-daily basis, but the mechanics of resleeving make that virtually impossible what with the mental BS. There really ought to be like an "Experienced Transhuman" trait or something that removes or severely curtails resleeving stress.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Sat, 2013-12-28 20:34

#10

thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture

there are 2 relivent traits i

there are 2 relivent traits i can find. Right at home (eclipse phase p 147) chose one type of morph and you never take stress, also means you always pass the integration test hardening (transhuman p 84) loos a point of moxy and become immune to a source of stress. can be acquired in play at no cost included in the description is the option "Alienation Tests with a particular type of morph" which makes this in all ways inferior to 'right at home' unless acquired in play. personally i would expand it to ether a broad category of morphs or all morphs

Fri, 2014-01-03 06:45

#11

Patrick Northedgers Patrick Northedgers's picture

Simple mathematical solution

Naming forks could be done easily with XX century tool - tree data structure. Assuming that we are not limited to "Name Surname" (or "Surname Name") format - as we should not be, considering it is not exactly followed on today Earth (I recommend a [url=http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about... text about the subject[/url], by the way), we have "John Smith efb34443a8cc688c9ffe3cff93e2160e48f8de78" - the original, subject 0. He forks once, creating a "John Smith be5667ffe390d08ac7bc3b020e14e3bcdd0bd7dd" - subject 1. Then subject 0 forks once more, generating "John Smith f3cdbe6c542edc5e7aa941cb76e5eaddeb0e3d8a", called subject 2, while subject 1 forks twice, generating "John Smith b13a5680a35e6a3dc2ec88503a708edde668e40f" and "John Smith 81188b792490f563cb658e0bbfc51fe5677f43b4" - subjects 1.1 and 1.2. Most of the names and ID tags could - and should - be handled by the muses - as most social interaction (identification, reputation, sometimes translation and cultural context) is already handled by them. Of course, the system of IDs should be a bit more sophisticated than hash function I used here, but this is just an example - a good place to start such identification could be a version control system, like [url=http://git-scm.com/]git[/url] or [url=http://hginit.com/]Mercurial[/url]. Forks are esentially branches in this approach, and backups are commits.

—

"Normal" does not exist anymore. I consider it a good symptom, though.

Fri, 2014-01-03 07:06

#12

thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture

That system works for short

That system works for short term forks or forks that maintain very close association. but it fails to create a separate identity. To any group of forks wishing to live as, and be thought of as, different identities adding a numerical tag to the name will not be enough for people to think of them separately. They would need to differentiate the short label people think of them as. The name they actually use in casual conversation. In casual circles in the west it is the first name, among school teachers and politicians the surname

Fri, 2014-01-03 08:08

#13

Patrick Northedgers Patrick Northedgers's picture

Distinction between short and long

Distinction between short and long is important here, yes. I always considered ego and identity completely distinct in EP, and having an n:n relationship - one ego might have multiple identities (common, especially among undercover agents) and one identity might be shared between several egos (hive mind, metacelebrity, useful face for outside contact). That being said, creation of a permanent or semi-permanent fork that has a separate identity is closer to a birth of a new person (except starting as adult), thus requiring a bit of work and giving them a completely separate name to begin with (maybe a variation of the original, like Andrew => Drew, or Lucas => Luke). The case I described would work as lower-level identification method or technique appropriate in hive-mind or council-mind (like a research station manned by 100 forks of 5 people).

—

"Normal" does not exist anymore. I consider it a good symptom, though.

Fri, 2014-01-03 08:16

#14

Leodiensian Leodiensian's picture

One option worth

One option worth consideration is looking at historical evolutions for names. For instance, consider the role of personal functions functions and purpose in names. This is where names like Smith, Wright, Cartwright etc come from - the jobs that the individual held. Other names that might derive from a region that person originates from, such as Hill, Fields or Meadows. Others, of course, come from personality traits, physical characteristics or even personal history such as Strong, Black or Freeman. For instance, say a hypothetical Scum by the very Scummy name of Bastardo decides to pluralize himself across the solar system through forking. He might assign missions to each fork, or allow each to find purposes of their own. Either way, these Bastardos get to give themselves new names (or have new names given to them, if a Scum could put up with that) depending on where the end up. You could have Bastardo Pavarti operating in Venus, or Bastardo Ringmaster who decides to really get stuff going on Carnivale. If one decides to sign up with the Love and Rage Collective, he could be Bastardo Reckless. One who sleeves in an Olympian can be Bastardo Beefcake while one who gets stuck in a Case can be Bastardo Sparks. I actually wrote a short story last year exploring similar themes; Johnny Said, which you can read for free so I guess this isn't advertising? Either way, I hope it's okay to link to it here. Apologies if not, and I'll remove it. It's about an office full of clones of the same man, all given the same first name, at once embracing the collective identity that provides while desperately clinging to any possible excuse for individual distinction.

Fri, 2014-01-03 09:32

#15

Smokeskin

Obviously most forks wishing

Obviously most forks wishing to live their own life with a separate identity will pick a new name for themselves. Some forks might keep their original name - if they have a hive mentality, if there's disagreement as to which fork is entitled to the name, if they wish to remain associated with the rep and past deeds of the original, and so on. In many such cases, the individual forks might or might not be in agreement on the numbering. For an standardized numbering system, just "John Smith 3.1.4" won't cut it - how would you know that there weren't intermediate forks? I believe you'd need a string of timestamps for the uploads you're based on too, so you'd be "John Smith [date.3][date.1][date.4]".

Fri, 2014-01-03 13:05

#16

Chernoborg Chernoborg's picture

Not meaning to complicate

Not meaning to complicate matters, but adding the type of fork could be relevant to the nomenclature. As such there would be traceable lineages for forks ex. John Smith alpha3 delta2 or John Smith beta1 . This way you can tell from whom a particular fork originated and what to expect from that fork. Date stamps would be useful as well or may be just asked socially ( instancing day?). Individual names may be reserved for alpha level forks since the lower level forks are created as a limited version of a specific ego and we don't want them thinking they're people now, do we?

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Current Status: Highly Distracted building Gatecrashing systems in Universe Sandbox!

Fri, 2014-01-03 13:30

#17

Leodiensian Leodiensian's picture

I suppose a major factor is

I suppose a major factor is where you are, or what faction you belong to. In a lot of polities it's considered greedy and wasteful to have multiple forks or running forks long-term when that's basically taking up a body someone else could be using instead of being an infomorph. In either case, the nomenclature would be fairly simple to differentiate. The guys most likely to engage in major forking would be Scum, anarchists, criminals and hyperelites, I suppose - in other words, the people least likely to actually give much of a damn. Yes, I think quality of fork should matter too. The bad-taste-jokes part of my brain has somehow got the idea that delta and gamma forks should have oddly corrupted names to reflect their... lesser nature. Like, Jimmy's delta fork is called Bimmy.

Fri, 2014-01-03 18:27

#18

thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture

it occurs to me that there is

it occurs to me that there is a good reason there is not a solid naming convention in system. for the most part it is not needed. in most habitats forking is ether legally, or socially restricted to a handful of concurrently running forks, all of which forked directly from the primary ego. when a fork assumes a new identity it chooses what it will be called as a new entity. while there are individuals/groups that use heaver forking they are not mainstream and not alied with each other so each asumes its own nomenclature. just try to get 5 brinker habs an arganort research team, pax familie and the jovians to agree on a naming convention. the brinkers don't want to talk to you at all, the arganorts will repeatedly propose a system that perfectly tracks everything but nobody else can remember, Pax famile will deliberately sabotage anything that would make them easier to track and the jovians consider them all criminals.

Sat, 2014-01-04 06:13

#19

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

thezombiekat wrote:it occurs

thezombiekat wrote:
it occurs to me that there is a good reason there is not a solid naming convention in system. for the most part it is not needed.

I didn't necessarily mean any kind of organized, formal convention. (I imagine Argonauts probably have one, though.) I just mean that Jane01, Jane05, JanePrime, Jane29 and Jane05.01 is kind of.. Stale. Dull. It might be utilitarian in a setting where the Janes are all in a group chat with people who are familiar with their habit of forking and familiar enough with the Janes to know "The Janes," but for whom knowing the specifics of any individual Jane's life after her forking is unnecessary. IE, an associate acquaintance, business partner. But when the Janes themselves are talking with one another? I think that'd be another matter. Again, I'm not expecting anything standardized (excepting Argonauts,), just that within "families" (and with their close associates,) there would be something else.

Quote:
In most habitats forking is ether legally, or socially restricted to a handful of concurrently running forks, all of which forked directly from the primary ego. When a fork assumes a new identity it chooses what it will be called as a new entity.

How many folks would [i]completely[/i] reinvent themselves? How many could, without major psychosurgery? A fork would have as much right to the name and identity as the original, after all, and if they didn't part on "the next time we meet, one of us dies," terms, they'd probably still fancy using it, especially since they'd probably share friends and all. So I'd think they'd need to come up with a way to both name themselves as their own version of the same person, whilst still laying claim to that identity.

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While there are individuals/groups that use heaver forking they are not mainstream and not allied with each other so each assumes its own nomenclature.

I know. I was wondering what sort of nomenclatures those might be.

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Just try to get 5 Brinker habs, an Argonaut research team, Pax Familiae and the Jovians to agree on a naming convention. The Brinkers don't want to talk to you at all, the Argonauts will repeatedly propose a system that perfectly tracks everything but nobody else can remember, Pax Familae will deliberately sabotage anything that would make them easier to track and the Jovians consider them all criminals.

I would [i]love[/i] to bear witness to that conference, though.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Fri, 2014-01-10 16:57

#20

The Doctor The Doctor's picture

Smokeskin wrote:For an

Smokeskin wrote:
For an standardized numbering system, just "John Smith 3.1.4" won't cut it - how would you know that there weren't intermediate forks? I believe you'd need a string of timestamps for the uploads you're based on too, so you'd be "John Smith [date.3][date.1][date.4]".

Why not use something like the [url=https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2459]X.509 hierarchy[/url]? Or [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_key_fingerprint]public key fingerprints[/url]? Either would give the collective of egos internal individuality for logistical purposes without precluding each individual instance from aliasing itself for external communications? This seems like the sort of organizational task that muses would excel at, and possibly have been designed with in mind.

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[img]http://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/info_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/argo_userbar.jpg[/img] [url=https://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/blankbadge.png][img]http://drwho.vir...

Tue, 2014-01-14 18:28

#21

Smokeskin

The Doctor wrote:Smokeskin

The Doctor wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
For an standardized numbering system, just "John Smith 3.1.4" won't cut it - how would you know that there weren't intermediate forks? I believe you'd need a string of timestamps for the uploads you're based on too, so you'd be "John Smith [date.3][date.1][date.4]".
Why not use something like the [url=https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2459]X.509 hierarchy[/url]? Or [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_key_fingerprint]public key fingerprints[/url]? Either would give the collective of egos internal individuality for logistical purposes without precluding each individual instance from aliasing itself for external communications? This seems like the sort of organizational task that muses would excel at, and possibly have been designed with in mind.

I don't know what those things are :) My point was that a simple branching tree numbering wouldn't cut it since you can't be sure of when forks were made. Crypto schemes is a good point though. You might want to both conceal your forking history and be able to verify it to select people.

Wed, 2014-01-15 03:00

#22

It that must no... It that must not be named's picture

I think it speaks highly of

I think it speaks highly of this board that no one suggested "MiniMe". Maybe someone could use something like "Alf' for an alpha fork, bob for a beta and dilbert for a delta.

—

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.