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Rules Issue: Targeting Reticules And Firearms

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bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
Rules Issue: Targeting Reticules And Firearms
In a discussion with my players, I found that there is a rules problem that my players are dissatisfied with, and we were throwing around ideas on how to resolve it. The issue: There are two ranged weapon skills that are grossly similar: Beam Weapons and Kinetic Weapons. Both skills use similarly shaped weapons and targeting skills, and, as a key point, once you add in a smartlink, both skills are functionally reduced to "line up reticule on target and shoot", with the weapon's computer doing the heavy lifting of ballistics/atmospheric scatter. Add in Gunnery as an additional issue and things got even worse with internal consistency, with my player arguing that, with the computational resources available in the setting and computer aided firing solutions, why wouldn't all ranged weapon skills basically become Gunnery? It's gotten bad enough with drone combat; the player, in an effort to point out the absurdity of the system with Gunnery and remote piloted drones, had his PC fork and sleeve into a Xu-Fu. The fork relinquished control of his gun arm and used Gunnery to fire a vehicle mounted laser, while the original in the vehicle used Gunnery to fire the Xu-Fu's gun. (My PCs have been challenging the base assumptions of the system mechanics already; the system, I've noticed, is designed around infantry and light cavalry (small and medium vehicles), and they've just been adding more and more weapons and armor to their GEV to the point that it now, IMHO, qualifies as a legitimate military target). So, to resolve this issue, we shot around and discussed various hypotheticals and what ifs. What we have as a working concept for a house rule at the moment and I wanted to run it by the forum first for side effects and rules consequences that I've not noticed. Gunnery: Only applies for weapons that are vehicle mounted and of sufficient size to qualify for heavy weapons and crew serviced weapons status that are either vehicle or emplacement mounted; these weapons are so large that the difference in scale becomes a difference in kind, due to the differences in tracking, reloading and other such factors. Examples would be a tank mounted railgun or plasma rifle main gun--I used the examples of vehicle-mounted weapons in games such as Halo and Mass Effect, which have fundamentally different handling and firing characteristics than the infantry weapons used elsewhere in the games. For times when directly controlling a drone--not jamming it--instead of using Gunnery, the character uses either Beam Weapons or Kinetic Weapons, as appropriate, and a specialty in "Remote Control" in the relevant weapon applies. Beam Weapons/Kinetic Weapons: Due to the similarities in "line up and shoot" training, when and only when the character has computer aid in the form of a smartlink and data, instead of gaining the +10 bonus, they may instead choose to use the higher of the two skills, regardless of the actual weapon type, as the computational aid allows for the character to put the reticule on target and fire. When the character does not have computational aid to help deal with the indiosyncracies of the weapon's firing characteristics, they must instead use the skill that actually applies to the weapon. (Rough quote: "Why should my skill be lower when I have a smartlinked kinetic weapon with a reticule as compared to a beam weapon? It's the same skill--just line it up and shoot. Yes, you had atmospheric and gravitational effects on the firearm, but you can write up a program that can compensate for that in real time in real life now.")

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
I had similar thoughts but
I had similar thoughts but disagree on some specifics. A small drone with a stunner mounted directly on its body or in a micro truet (no articulated gun arm) will handle more like a tanks main gun than an infantry weapon Also there is considerable difference in handling between a pistol and heavy machine gun. so my pattern became. Gunnery. Any weapon in a mount that fixes its position relative to a vehicle or the ground typically characterised by limited firing arks or mobility. Examples. Fixed mounts, turret mounts, pintel mounts and weapons deployed with a tripod or similar stabilising device that restricts mobility. Hand weapons. Any direct firing weapon that is being fired with one hand. Or on a comparable articulated mount 2 handed weapons. Any direct firing weapon that is being fired with 2 or more hands or a comparable articulated mount. After working all that out I thought “spray weapons, or at least shredders are not all that different, should I modify them too” and then “I can’t be bothered implementing this house rule it’s going to add more complexity than believability”
Nebelwerfer41 Nebelwerfer41's picture
I can see how you would need
I can see how you would need two different skill sets for kinetic and beam weapons. The main difference being recoil. Having a good skill in kinetic weapons reflects not only bullet drop compensation, windage and leading the target (which can be compensated with optics, smartlink, etc.) but also how to handle recoil in burst and full auto mode and target reacquisition after aimed shots. Granted, you could assume that those factors are ALL compensated by improved targeting AI, but then you could also assume that all Knowledge skills can be condensed as well, etc. I can see a clear differentiation between seekers and beam/kinetic, as seekers are almost like indirect fire.
Aurell1an Aurell1an's picture
Rule variant:
I came up with this in an hour, any thoughts?
  • All pre-existing weapon skills (except for Gunnery) are replaced with 3 categories: Pistols, Longarms, and Big Guns.
  • Your skill with a weapon category provides a modifier on your skill roll, which is Gunnery. Shooting someone comes with a Smartlinked weapon is as simple as "put reticule over target, think 'fire' at the right time"; compensating for drop, drag, wind, etc. is handled for you. Note that this only applies to Smartlinked weapons, and replaces their blanket +10 modifier.
  • Before making the Opposed Gunnery roll, you may first roll your ability with the appropriate weapon category; the result of this will affect the target score for the aforementioned Opposed Gunnery roll. This represents knowing how to handle the recoil, how to properly hold it in the first place, and actual aiming ability; your Smartlink will always do a better job if you're actually aimed at the guy's head!
  • Different firing modes cause modifiers to your Gunnery test:
    • Semi-auto: second shot is at -10.
    • Burst: blanket -20, second burst is at -40.
    • Full-auto: blanket -30.
  • For the sake of balance, Gunnery cost twice as many CP per point as normal (meaning it costs 4 per point over 60).
  • When Jamming a bot, the rules remain unchanged; treat it as though you were using a regular Smartlinked weapon.
For example: Shooter with a COO of 20, a Longarms skill of 50, and a Gunnery skill of 50 wants to fire full-auto at a target. Target with a Fray of 60. Shooter rolls his Longarms first, and scores a 09, a MoS of 41, rounded to 40. He's rolling against a base of 50 for his Opposed roll, plus 40 for his earlier success, minus 30 for it being full-auto, for an end target of 60. Target rolls a 28 for his Fray/2, and Shooter rolls 45, meaning the burst connects. Result! Later, Shooter tangles with Target again, but by now he's down to a sidearm. He's had enough of Target, and wants to end this quickly. He stops to aim (+10), and unloads 2 carefully placed rounds. He elects to allow the computer to do most of the work, and forgoes the usual Pistols test. Shooter rolls his Gunnery + 10, for a target of 60, and gets a 04. Target rolls his Fray/2, and gets a 29, so the shot misses. Shooter fires his second shot, against a target of 50 (+10 for aiming still, but -10 for it being the second round), and gets an 11. Target rolls his Fray/2, and gets an 88, and, for argument's sake, his head explodes. Thoughts? I know it's a bit weird breaking away from the usual Opposed test format, but it's an idea, at least. I'd also consider making the Pistols/ Longarms/ Big Guns test mandatory, or possibly just mandatory for anything more strenuous than semi-auto fire, to represent just how hard it can be to control a weapon.
Discontinuity is a lifestyle choice
puke puke's picture
cut it down further, use flexible stats
small arms and heavy weapons. or perhaps direct and indirect weapons. Use the existing weapon categories as specializations of the above. add COO for anything that you physically handle somehow through your own senses or physicality. add INT for anything that you target through a computer or other hands-off interface. OR, allow targets to be designated as a free action and assume that a synthetic intelligence with lots of complimentary skills and overlapping bonuses calculates the shot. Just having a reticule in your vision does not make it a non-physical task if you still have to feel and move your arm. If you arm is slaved to the computer and you mentally move the reticule to automate your arm motion, then it's another story. Of course, this is just my desire to create a game where people dont carry guns, but instead order around their semi autonomous drone swarms. I haven't yet met anyone else who thinks that would be a fun game to play, but I still go fishing every now and again.
bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
Finally! (Been having some
Finally! (Been having some serious problems with staying logged in the last few days; next stop is the Forum Talk subforum) Well, thanks everyone for the suggestions. The players and I have resolved the issues at hand and have a workable house rule; Gunnery is now for big weapons (think the difference between vehicular/turret/heavy weapons and infantry weapons in games like Mass Effect and Halo), and we're eliminating/downgrading the "recoilless" kinetic weapons; guns now have some degree of recoil, and recoil management is now a part of the kinetic weapons skill (so we're not going to institute recoil modifiers as a thing; this is a fluff description for why there's two different skills for "point and shoot" weapons). Also, lets me be evil for zero-g firefight crit failures... hehehehehe...

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Telemachus Sneezed Telemachus Sneezed's picture
Nebelwerfer41 wrote:I can see
Nebelwerfer41 wrote:
I can see how you would need two different skill sets for kinetic and beam weapons.
The other reason, I feel, that they're treated as different skills is that Beam Weapons and Kinetic Weapons also deals with the [i]maintenance[/i] of the weapons as well. I guess it depends how often that sort of thing comes up in your own games that determines whether or not this reason is a good one to keep them split; I imagine in a game focused on Gatecrashing, a nod towards keeping your gear maintained properly is more important than in a campaign where weapons are more or less disposable. Still, totally going to be stealing some of these ideas for my game - thanks!

"If Atlas can Shrug and Telemachus can Sneeze, why can't Satan Repent?"

thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
bibliophile20 wrote:Finally!
bibliophile20 wrote:
Finally! (Been having some serious problems with staying logged in the last few days; next stop is the Forum Talk subforum) Well, thanks everyone for the suggestions. The players and I have resolved the issues at hand and have a workable house rule; Gunnery is now for big weapons (think the difference between vehicular/turret/heavy weapons and infantry weapons in games like Mass Effect and Halo), and we're eliminating/downgrading the "recoilless" kinetic weapons; guns now have some degree of recoil, and recoil management is now a part of the kinetic weapons skill (so we're not going to institute recoil modifiers as a thing; this is a fluff description for why there's two different skills for "point and shoot" weapons). Also, lets me be evil for zero-g firefight crit failures... hehehehehe...
I should point out that eclipse phase dose have recoil included in the rules. It’s just handled at the back end so you don’t need to think about it. Lets say you have rail rifle. If you fire a single shot you have no recoil effect on your aim. You do damage for a quality hit. Now fire a 3 round burst. If there was no recoil you would get 3 quality hits and do 3 times as much damage as the single shot, but you only get 1d10, about 20% more damage. Evidently not all 3 bullets where quality hits, I blame the recoil. Now go to fully automatic, you send 10 rounds down range and only get 2d10 additional damage. Meaning that the 7 rounds added after the 3 round burst had the same effect as the 2 rounds added on top of single shot. At this point I find it hard to believe that all 10 rounds actually hit the target at all, if they had there would be a lot more damage, hell we still haven’t done as much damage as 2 single shots. When somebody takes 2 single shots, or 2 3 round bursts in an action the system shows they have enough time between attacks to recover from the recoil. For those without speed boosts you’re firing every 1.5 seconds, plenty of time to get your barrel down for the next shot.
Chaos Blade Chaos Blade's picture
Note Recoil
All weapons sans lasers should have recoil, remember newton, you have action and reaction. So Rail, Particle and plasma should have recoil, the question is is it less than a chemical gun? that I have no clue, somebody ought to do the math
hhexo hhexo's picture
So, Newton.
Chaos Blade wrote:
All weapons sans lasers should have recoil, remember newton, you have action and reaction. So Rail, Particle and plasma should have recoil, the question is is it less than a chemical gun? that I have no clue, somebody ought to do the math
Well, action and reaction should work exactly the same independently of what propulsion mechanism is used, but there are other parameters which change from gun to gun. What you know (i.e. can measure) is that the projectile mass comes out of the gun barrel at [i]v[/i] m/s and it weighs [i]M[/i] kilograms. Its momentum is [i]M * v[/i] regardless of what propelled it. Momentum is also equal to the integral of [i]F(t) * dt[/i], where [i]F(t)[/i] is a function describing the force applied over time and [i]dt[/i] the time differential. In theory you should study how the different mechanisms accelerate the projectile to find out the shape of [i]F(t)[/i], but if you want a quick-and-dirty calculation you can assume the force was constant and that will make the integral be trival, its result being [i]F * t[/i]. So: [i]M * v = F * t[/i] [i]F[/i] is basically the average recoil force that you will experience, because of the action-reaction law. And [i]t[/i] is the total time the projectile spends moving (accelerating) through the gun before exiting the gun. We still don't know [i]t[/i] so we have two unknown variables, but we have another equation. If we name the length of the gun [i]L[/i], since the projectile mass was stationary at the start and we assume a constant force therefore a constant acceleration, we have: [i]L = a * t * t[/i] The second equation will have two symmetric solutions but obviously we want the one where [i]t[/i] is positive. So, since [i]F = M * a[/i] and therefore [i]a = F / M[/i], we have: [i]L = F / M * t * t M * v = F * t[/i] This is a system of two equations in two variables ([i]F[/i] and [i]t[/i]), and the only parameters we need are: - Mass of the projectile [i]M[/i] - Final speed of the projectile [i]v[/i] - Length of the gun barrel [i]L[/i] I don't think we have exact data for plasma and particle guns, but I would tend to think that plasma and particles move way faster but are less massive. Energy (which determines damage) is proportional to mass times the square of speed. So to do the same amount of damage (energy) with a beam weapon, you need less mass than a bullet. This is interesting because it means that if you compare two weapons with the same damage (energy produced), the beam weapon's projectile will have less momentum than the kinetic weapon's projectile. Let's set their kinetic energy equal: [i]0.5 * Mb * vb * vb = 0.5 * Mk * vk * vk[/i] Now, if we take the ratio of the momentum of the beam weapon divided by the momentum of the kinetic weapon, we have: [i](Mb * vb) / (Mk * vk)[/i] But: [i]Mb = Mk * vk * vk / (vb * vb)[/i] (from the kinetic energy equation) So the ratio becomes: [i]((Mk * vk * vk / (vb * vb)) * vb) / (Mk * vk)[/i] And if we simplify that it all just comes down to: [i]vk / vb[/i] Since we know that [i]vk < vb[/i], then the ratio is less than 1. Therefore, the momentum of a beam weapon is less than the momentum of a kinetic weapon. Given the same length of the gun, the recoil for a beam weapon will therefore be lower. Also we know that a railgun fires the same ammunition as a chemical gun, probably at higher speed (since it does greater damage), but with the same mass. If the railgun and chemical gun have the same length, then recoil for the railgun will definitely be greater. However, remember that the length of the gun matters, so you can tweak the length to affect the recoil force... potentially you may have a very short beam weapon that has more recoil force than a very long kinetic weapon. But most of the time, I think the results hold. I hope I haven't made any stupid mistake... :)
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
Quote: This is interesting
Quote:
This is interesting because it means that if you compare two weapons with the same damage (energy produced), the beam weapon's projectile will have less momentum than the kinetic weapon's projectile. Let's set their kinetic energy equal
After that there was a lot of math’s that I will assume was correct but missed a point. Beam weapons don’t do damage with kinetic energy, atleas not primarily. Now we all have limited experience with energy weapons I will explain using something that exists in the real world. Tank shells. The simplest tank shell is a lump of heavy, solid material that is made to hit the target very fast, transferring kinetic energy and punching a hole in the target. a more complex tank shell is the armour persing high explosive. It has similar mass, and similar speed but dose a lot more damage because after it has passed through the targets outer armour it explodes, converting chemical energy into damage in aditian to doing damage from the same amount f kinetic energy. Returning to EP we have light pistols firing explosive ammunition like the tank did, and plasma weapons firing f*****g plasma. One of the key traits of plasma is that it is hot. While the projectile from a plasma canon is lighter and faster than a similar kinetic weapon it will have fare less kinetic energy. Much of the damage from a plasma weapon comes from the thermal energy being transferred from the plasma, to the target. As firing a hot projectile does not affect recoil there will be less recoil from a plasma weapon. Going through other beam weapons. Lasers, projectiles don’t have mass, or maybe they do and its hiding from us. In any case I believe there will be some recoil at least. I say this because light sails are supposed, much of the energy however is held by the photons rather than being kinetic energy so recoil will be low. Microwave agoniser. Low recoil for same reason as laser. Particle beam bolter. As far as I know a pure sci-fi weapon. Sais it works based on “accelerated particles at near light speed that transfer massive amounts of kinetic energy to the target” since it deals damage by applying raw kinetic energy to the target there will be recoil. now if damage for a kinetic kill weapon can be simplified to joules of energy =damage the recoil will represent the same number of joules of energy as a kinetic weapon. As the energy imparted to the projectile (and later the target) will be the same as the energy imparted on the weapon (energy=force*time, equal and opposite force for the same time, same energy), and later the firers shoulder. This gives us a problem with the equal kinetic energy causes equal damage theory when a rifleman doesn’t injure his own shoulder as badly as the shoulder he shoots. A slow moving massive projectile will transferee more of its energy to the target as a whole (causing the target to move but not be damaged) while I high speed low mass projectile will push through the target making a hole (damage). Next we can consider that the Particle Beam Bolter fires not one solid projectile but a large number of atomic or subatomic particles with no bonds between them complicating pressure estimations. Would it be valid to compare this to the difference between a shotgun firing buck shot or bird shot for similar speed and total mass? The more I delve into this the more I see it is not simple at all. Probably why RL gun users can’t come close to agreeing what is the most effective weapon. Returning briefly to the game. No beam weapon is capable of better than semi automatic fire greatly reducing the impact that recoil, if present, would have on their accuracy.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
You have misunderstood
You have misunderstood conservation of energy. Energy is a scalar, not a vector, and the conservation of energy is over all forms of energy - there is no conservation of kinetic energy. So when you fire a rifle, you have chemical energy in the gunpowder that is converted to primarily heat and kinetic energy of the bullet and rifle recoil. So E(chemical) = E(heat) + E(kinetic bullet) + E(recoil). It is in no way correct that the kinetic energy of the bullet equals the energy in the recoil. Momentum on the other hand is conserved and it is a vector, so in the firing direction the momentum of the bullet will be of equal size to the momentum of the rifle and shooter. Regarding damage on the target, from what I know of terminal ballistics, energy delivered is a very poor measure of stopping power. The size, shape and placement of the permanent wound cavity is pretty much all that matters. This page is really old and maybe something new and better is out there (I haven't looked into ballistics for many years), but for a solid, shortish, no-nonsense introduction to ballistics I can highly recommend http://www.frfrogspad.com/ballisti.htm
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
thezombiekat wrote:The
thezombiekat wrote:
The simplest tank shell is a lump of heavy, solid material that is made to hit the target very fast, transferring kinetic energy and punching a hole in the target. a more complex tank shell is the armour persing high explosive. It has similar mass, and similar speed but dose a lot more damage because after it has passed through the targets outer armour it explodes, converting chemical energy into damage in aditian to doing damage from the same amount f kinetic energy.
What is an armor piercing high explosive tank shell? I never heard of them, and google doesn't give me anything either. I'm not sure I see the need for more damage from a kinetic energy penetrator from a tank. Once it has penetrated armor whatever makes it inside is going to be HOT and lots of fragmentation too, so the target will be toast. A light skinned vehicle won't suffer as much of course, but tanks have other rounds for that - and there's not much room in a KE penetrator for explosives and fragmentation material even if you want to make it dual purpose.
Chaos Blade Chaos Blade's picture
HEAT AND SABOT
look for HEAP, military love to short things up but they are old news Then again these days they use Armor Peircing, fin Stabilized, Discardig SABOTs (french for shoe) they fire a container donw the barrel that breaks down in flight and turns into a Dart, better ballistics and a lot of KE. link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator Then you have HEAT or high explosive, Anti Tank, it is a shaped charge that sorta melts into the armor and boils the crew alive, link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEAT Wikipedia is your friend. But they are high end ammunition. Hell, I think they are even guided these days too, or will soon be.
puke puke's picture
they have shaped explosive
they have shaped explosive penetrators (HESH sorts of things) for 12 gauge shotgun cartridges now. I dont know if they're being produced in bulk yet or if they have any military cusomers, but they were all over the firearm blogs and Shot Show and such a few years back. I think one of those "Future Weapon" TV Shows even ran an episode on them. Back to on topic, I'll offer up this totally off-topic link (wait, what?): http://www.vsca.ca/Diaspora/diaspora-srd.html#skills I like their "Energy Weapon" and "Slug Thrower" (search on those key words) write ups, and it covers what I think those skills should be for and how they differentiate. I'll quote: "the Energy Weapons expert is an unusual enthusiast for this specific kind of weapon. She takes advantage of obscure features of her preferred weapon type, like the zero flight time and the high energy density in storage on the device, to get every ounce of advantage—she shoots down drones, sets low-power lasers on overload so they explode, can get energy from one device to another, can modulate the power on a laser to use it as a communicator, and hits everything she aims at. Her fascination with the specific form of weapon likely borders on nerdish." and for Slug Throwers: "She can patch ammunition to sabot through too large a barrel, she can overcharge a binary propellant magazine to get better penetration, and she knows ballistics tables better than you know the galley menu after seven years on the same ship."
Lilith Lilith's picture
Tandem charges
Smokeskin wrote:
thezombiekat wrote:
The simplest tank shell is a lump of heavy, solid material that is made to hit the target very fast, transferring kinetic energy and punching a hole in the target. a more complex tank shell is the armour persing high explosive. It has similar mass, and similar speed but dose a lot more damage because after it has passed through the targets outer armour it explodes, converting chemical energy into damage in aditian to doing damage from the same amount f kinetic energy.
What is an armor piercing high explosive tank shell? I never heard of them, and google doesn't give me anything either.
While people have already mentioned HEAT, HEAP, and SABOT rounds, this sounds more to me like a tandem charge, typically used in anti-tank rockets to counter reactive armor. Basically it's a missile with multiple detonation stages. The first stage is smaller and designed to trigger explosive reactive armor, thereby expending it and carving a nice little hole for the second stage detonation to blow through the hull completely. They were popular during the Cold War, since the Russians had reactive armor on practically all of their armor. Dunno how frequently (if at all) they're used anymore.
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
on reflection the system i
on reflection the system i described was based on an imperfect memory of naval shells aquired at a museum about 10 years ago, and probably out of date then. the idea was that a pure kinetic damage shell from a (then) modern ships cannon would make a small hole (relative to the size of a ship) damage some bulkheads, maby take out a single machine that was in the path of the projectile. and if below the waterline flood one or 2 compartments. if after penetrating the armor the shell explodes it is likely to destroy multiple internal bulkheads, large quantities of pipes and cabling in the area, potentially disrupting communication hydraulics and power delivery in parts of the ship, equipment and ammunition stored in near buy sections is likely to be damaged. if below the water line a larger portion of the ship is subject to flooding due to damage to internal bulkheads. some information can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell. that page dose indicate that the system has been used for both navel and anti tank weapons however is now uncommon. HEAP is of cause another good example of a projectile carrying chemical explosives allowing it to do more damage than its kinetic energy would indicate. as for the comparison between recoil energy and projectile kinetic energy. that was based on newtons laws. i forget the numbering but the equal and oposit reaction one. whatever force is working on the bullet to accelerate it is also working on the gun, for the same amount of time. so it should impart the same amount of energy on the gun as on the bullet, just in the oposit direction.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Chaos Blade wrote:look for
Chaos Blade wrote:
look for HEAP, military love to short things up but they are old news Then again these days they use Armor Peircing, fin Stabilized, Discardig SABOTs (french for shoe) they fire a container donw the barrel that breaks down in flight and turns into a Dart, better ballistics and a lot of KE. link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator Then you have HEAT or high explosive, Anti Tank, it is a shaped charge that sorta melts into the armor and boils the crew alive, link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEAT Wikipedia is your friend. But they are high end ammunition. Hell, I think they are even guided these days too, or will soon be.
Thanks for the links, but I know how those works, and none of them are like the proposed system of a KE penetrator followed by a charge exploding inside. They are the most basic tank rounds, I'm not sure what you mean by "high end ammunition"? There are no guided tank rounds yet that I'm aware off.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
thezombiekat wrote:
thezombiekat wrote:
as for the comparison between recoil energy and projectile kinetic energy. that was based on newtons laws. i forget the numbering but the equal and oposit reaction one. whatever force is working on the bullet to accelerate it is also working on the gun, for the same amount of time. so it should impart the same amount of energy on the gun as on the bullet, just in the oposit direction.
No. Say a 1g insect collides with a 100 ton train. Equal forces act on them for equal amount of time obviously as per Newton's third law. Acceleration from that is governed by F = a * m, or a = F/m. So the insect gets 100 million times the acceleration and hence 100 million times the speed. Kinetic energy is E = 0.5 * m * v^2, so the insect also gets 100 million times the kinetic energy.
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
Ah. I see my mistake. I
Ah. I see my mistake. I thought kinetic energy was linear with speed. This dose however have some relativity style implications at speeds that are a negligible portion of the speed of light. Consider: there is a toy train with mass 1kg on a real train both are stationary (physics experiments of this type are required to take place on trains). the toy train runs its motor accelerating at 1m/s/s and achieves a speed of 10m/s for a KE of 50J, this drains the battery entirely so we conclude that the battery held E=50J modified by the efficiency. Now reset the toy train to stationary and give it a new battery. The full size train accelerates to 10m/s and carry's the toy train with it so the toy train now has KE = 50J. Then the toy train is again turned on and again accelerates at 1m/s/s for 10s achieving a speed relative to the train it is in of 10m/s and again draining its battery so expending the same amount of energy. However the toy train is now moving at 20m/s relative to the ground, giving it a KE of 200J. Its little electric motor and battery this time increased its KE by 150J. Reset again this time with the larger train running at 90m/s. the toy starts with KE 4050J and after accelerating itself by 10m/s has KE 5000J. So the tiny little battery has increased the toy train’s KE by 950J from the same energy input from the battery. That is 19 times the energy we got out when starting at stationary. This is looking like the fixed amount of energy in (one small battery) is giving a variable amount of kinetic energy out. And assuming moderate efficiency in the electric motor while stationary it almost looks like we are getting more energy out than was available in a small battery, and in any case it doesn’t feel right getting such a radical change in efficiency just because the toy was on a moving train. The Laws of thermodynamics say we can’t get energy for nothing and if they could be broken just by putting a toy on a train they wouldn’t still be being called laws. So clearly I am missing something big. I am used to things not adding up when we approach the speed of light, I know special relativity is beyond my current understanding. But dam it I thought I was ok if I stayed well below the speed of light and away from super massive objects.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
When the small train
When the small train accelerates, it pushes back on the big train. Conservation of momentum must still be observed, so the small train gaining velocity without someting else going the other way is impossible - so the big train is slowed down and loses kinetic energy.
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
yup. i did the sums for the
yup. i did the sums for the effect on the big train and it balances out nicely. makes a nice comparison to a gun as well. when the 1kg small train gains 50J a 1000kg large train that was stationary only gains .05J i was defiantly wrong about the energy being absorbed by the gunners shoulder.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
That's the general result,
That's the general result, the ratio of the energies is the opposite of the ratio of the masses. Ligther bullets have more kinetic energy and less recoil energy.
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
You have also forgot about
You have also forgot about something else. Beam weapons also have issues with range, and can be quite unpredictable and very picky. Refraction, diffusion, reflection. Certain wavelengths like burning and cutting through certain materials, but won't do too much against another. Atmospheric effects negatively affect the energy of the beam, etc. A beam weapon user would have to not only know how to maintain their weapon, but know how to maximize the effectiveness of their weapon's modalities. They know the right settings and how long to hold a beam on a target to squeeze out the absolute minimum amount of power needed to stretch out how long that battery or gas/chemical cylinder lasts. Projectile weapons have more than gravity effecting them too. Beam weapons, you can correct for bad aim on the fly. A beam weapons user would first aim at the "feet" of a target then draw a line to where the beam needs to be (this is a worst case scenario with poor aim). Unless a projectile system is mounted and you can see clearly where your rounds are landing, the line drawing technique is not exactly possible. Each round, or burst of rounds from a pulse system, upsets the user's aim, requiring them to pull back onto target. Essentially, projectile systems are a lot less forgiving of mistakes. Atmospheric effects affects ballistic differently than they do light as well. Different set of skills, different sets of knowledge. I know targeting programs do a lot of the heavy lifting these days, but they are only as good as the user. If it doesn't know quite what you want, it won't perform as well. And even then, they're probably not as adaptable as a transhuman's brain.
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Projectiles also have to deal
Projectiles also have to deal with the coriolis force on spun gravity habitats.
otohime1978 otohime1978's picture
Smokeskin wrote:Projectiles
Smokeskin wrote:
Projectiles also have to deal with the coriolis force on spun gravity habitats.
Oh, I had completely forgot about that. Thinking about it, that'd be a complete mind job to think about over long ranges. Note to self. Either stick to planets or use laser systems.
[size=6][i]...your vision / a homunculus on borrowed time Katya Bio: http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46253#comment-46253
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
otohime1978 wrote:Smokeskin
otohime1978 wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
Projectiles also have to deal with the coriolis force on spun gravity habitats.
Oh, I had completely forgot about that. Thinking about it, that'd be a complete mind job to think about over long ranges. Note to self. Either stick to planets or use laser systems.
not necessarily that hard. its mathematically highly predictable, just not what your used to. as long as your in a known environment your smart link can easily correct and rotating environments are so common i would expect dealing with them to be standard training, much like anti aircraft gunners are always taught to deal with a moving target. the only times it will be a real problem are when you are in an unknown environment (don't know the rotational characteristics) or the Coriolis effect is so severe that if you want to hit your target it wont even appear in your scope. of cause dealing with coriolis effect would not be included in training for energy weapons
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
thezombiekat wrote
thezombiekat wrote:
otohime1978 wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
Projectiles also have to deal with the coriolis force on spun gravity habitats.
Oh, I had completely forgot about that. Thinking about it, that'd be a complete mind job to think about over long ranges. Note to self. Either stick to planets or use laser systems.
not necessarily that hard. its mathematically highly predictable, just not what your used to. as long as your in a known environment your smart link can easily correct and rotating environments are so common i would expect dealing with them to be standard training, much like anti aircraft gunners are always taught to deal with a moving target. the only times it will be a real problem are when you are in an unknown environment (don't know the rotational characteristics) or the Coriolis effect is so severe that if you want to hit your target it wont even appear in your scope.
I completely agree that a smartlink will easily compensate for the coriolis effect. However, it will need a positional system that tells it where it is and where the gun is pointed and how fast the hab is turning. The coriolis effect is HUGE, iirc a current day assault rifle bullet in a big EP hab would be subject to a coriolis force of 0 to 125g depending on what direction you shoot it in. Bullets curve so much that at 100 meters you really have to position yourself so there's not a wall or ceiling that means you can't hit your target (or you can use the effect for strange cover).
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
are return paths the same
are return paths the same under the influence of a coriolis effect. assuming 2 combatants with similar firearms can one be behind cover while the other is not. it dose become a strong argument for combined arms. i am seeing a combination partial beam bolter which is not affected by the coriolis effect and a low velocity rifle with smart ammunition to relay shoot around corners.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
thezombiekat wrote:are return
thezombiekat wrote:
are return paths the same under the influence of a coriolis effect. assuming 2 combatants with similar firearms can one be behind cover while the other is not.
The coriolis effect is oppositely directed for two shooters facing each other. You could have a low wall between them and one could shoot over it while the other couldn't because his bullets curve upwards.
Quote:
it dose become a strong argument for combined arms. i am seeing a combination partial beam bolter which is not affected by the coriolis effect and a low velocity rifle with smart ammunition to relay shoot around corners.
You climb out of the airlock to the outside of the hab and walk (your space suit has gecko soles) in the direction of spin. Once you're over the horizon you turn around and wait for the sensor you placed at the airlock to show your pursuers coming out. You lob a grenade at a tangent to the hab at exactly the opposite of your velocity from the hab's spin so coriolis and centrifugal forces cancel out - and it will stay at the same distance from the hab as it flies towards the airlock where you detonate it.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Smokeskin wrote:I completely
Smokeskin wrote:
I completely agree that a smartlink will easily compensate for the coriolis effect. However, it will need a positional system that tells it where it is and where the gun is pointed and how fast the hab is turning.
I would imagine that most of this information could be calculated from sensory information, couldn't it? The inner ear could be used to calculate the direction of spin (since it will not be completely perpendicular to the ground), and speed of rotation could be gleaned from how much G force is being felt.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
There's a simple relation
There's a simple relation between centrifugal force, distance from rotation axis and spin speed, so know two and you have the other. Spin speed is most likely public information also, or easily measured. The centrifugal force is exactly perpendicular, but if you moved your inner ear or another accelerometer around, the coriolos effect it on it would give you what you needed, theoretically. If the effect is actually large enough to be measured accurately enough is a different question. If your smartlink can see the bullet impacts, or it has radar to track bullets in fligth or the bullets are smart enough to send back telemetry, the smartlink should be able to figure everything out after the first shot. In most directions, the coriolis effect on a bullet is huge, it should be easily measurable. Most if the time, I'd assume that the players had a good positioning system, so it wouldn't be a problem.