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Quicksilver

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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Quicksilver
Here is a new synthmorph I am considering for my campaign: Quicksilver™ (alias puddles, 1000s and sandpiles) While the swarmanoid morph is intended to fly as a cloud and has great flexibility, it is still somewhat limited for manual tasks and in unexpected media – many swarmanoids find themselves very inconvenienced by water immersion. Even worse, the wireless communications between the component units are easily disrupted by EMP. The quicksilver morph is a swarm design intended to be more cohesive, yet retain a great deal of flexibility and be more resistant to EMP. Quicksilvers are granular liquid swarms, a mass of millimetre-sized machines that link together in a dense but flexible structure. Each machine connects to their neighbours, sharing information, energy and exerting force. They can flow like an amoeba, change shape and solidify partially or completely. They can flow through millimetre-sized openings; flatten into a thin sheet and even separate into smaller droplets. While larger conglomerates can maintain cohesive consciousness smaller droplets just activate simple homing behaviour and try to rejoin the main body. Unlike swarmanoids they can actually perform physical tasks as an entire body, although their strength is still rather limited. For mobility they can flow, bundle up into a rolling ball or solidify legs and feet that allow walking. Quicksilvers can carry the same nanomachines as swarmanoids. But they also have less ability to distribute them in the environment to act as sensors or traps (although some Quicksilver users have developed “slime trails” for spreading useful nanodevices). One of the main uses of Quicksilver morphs during the Fall was nanowarfare in areas where EMP barrage occurred. After the Fall Xigki Nanodevices has been their prime developer, licensing them to Exotech (who markets them as the Quicksilver™ brand). Starware has a competing model, Zand™, which is used in lunar environments. Enhancements: Access Jacks, basic Mesh inserts, Cortical Stack, Cyberbrain, Menmonic Augmentation, Swarm Composition, Telescopic limbs Mobility: Flowing (4/16), Rolling (8/32), Walking (4/20) Aptitude Maximum: 30 Durability: 30 Wound Threshold: 6 Advantages: See swarm composition (p. 311) and below, Shape adjusting Disadvantages: See swarm composition (p. 311) and below. CP cost: 25 Credit cost: Expensive Modifications to advantages/disadvantages for swarm composition: Kinetic attack damage beyond 3 is reduced to 3. Fire, plasma and area effect weapons still do 1d10 damage. The exception is blast damage and impacts, where the real damage is 1d10 and the remaining damage consists of scattered droplets. Until they return the morph has its Durability reduced by this amount (no effects on WT). Scattered droplets return at a rate of 1/4 of the total amount per turn (round up). If a Quicksilver is completely scattered it is not dead, but it lacks any ability to do anything but instinctively try to reform. If this is prevented long enough the droplets will eventually run out of power and go inert. Due to low strength, -30 to all SOM-related skills except swimming. EMP damage is reduced since the components are physically linked rather than relying on nanoantennas. Still, the high voltages do damage them: they take half the damage a nanoswarm would otherwise take from nearby EMP.
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Quicksilver
I would argue against the ability to separate droplets from the main swarm, unless you first download a fork into the droplet (probably a delta fork, but maybe a beta fork if the droplet is big enough). This means that your ego is contained in the largest portion of the swarm at all times but disrupting the swarm (ie breaking it apart) will severely hamper the overall effectiveness of the swarm.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Yes, I did not intend to have one fork per little droplet (hence the note about simple homing behaviour). I wonder what volume you need to run a fork in? Maybe a rough rule would be that a full fork can run if you separate ~25% or more of the mass, limited forks down to 10% and below that it is just simple morph routines. But even then being suddenly split or merged would likely be very confusing - suddenly you lose half of your sense data and your body, or you suddenly get merged with a version of yourself that had different motor plans and short-term memory; I would probably give penalties on all rolls for the next action if this happens.
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Quicksilver
I would say that if a droplet is prepped then you can download a fork into it (using your % to determine how big the droplet needs to be), if the droplet is force created (ie you take damage) then your homing behaviour kicks in (though the amount the droplet can home would be based on how big it is). I got the image from Terminator II when the T1000 has to go to the droplet left behind to integrate it back into himself rather then the droplet moving towards him.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Quicksilver
I see it similar to the schlock mercenary amorphous And in the "seperated situation" :the piles "think" they are parts of the same whole and have a deep-seated coded reflex to reassemble it self. http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20050904.html
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Quicksilver
TheMite: “I had the misfortune to try one of the cheap Starware Zand models recently. It was pretty slick on the lunar surface, and the feeling of warm regolith flowing past underneath was one of the more enjoyable somatics I have experienced recently (see attached XPmark). The very low profile was a nice bonus: I could sneak up on a sentrybot very closely before it noticed me visually. It was then I discovered that in low gravity the droplet homing is next to useless: sure, the droplets will get back to you, but they fly far away and since they have to roll back they won’t be available for a significant while. Worse, this model had no hidden mode on the homing and the sentrybot started to target them by their navigation queries. I ended up scattered over a big area before I could withdraw, mostly by sheer luck.” ICS Knology: “Sure, the Zand IV and Prism are pretty lousy if you want to fight. Or if you are a singlethreaded intelligence. For low gravity use we would recommend an Exotech Quicksilver Dea instead; you can get ion drive units included for a small added fee, and they have some nifty waypoint homing macros that cut down signals emissions. But as we said, this kind of morph isn’t the best if your ego is originally single-threaded.” Teodor: “Xigki are apparently working on a heavy duty Quicksilver, with stronger unit interlinks that would be able to reach human-level or beyond strength. Likely a bit slower but more resilient thanks to all the diamond walls and locks. According to industry rumour they are trying to compete with Starware in the industrial flexible synthmorph market.”
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Xahn Borealis Xahn Borealis's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Is this basically the T-1000? Does it have 'the run' built in? (See Hot Fuzz)
Bloodwork Bloodwork's picture
Re: Quicksilver
I think you are stuck on Swarm Composition. If you really wanted to make the T1000 I would start with the Shape Adjusting augmentation and possibly even Modular Design and go from there.
That which doesn't kill you usually succeeds on the second attempt.
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Bloodwork wrote:
I think you are stuck on Swarm Composition. If you really wanted to make the T1000 I would start with the Shape Adjusting augmentation and possibly even Modular Design and go from there.
I wouldn't discredit the Swarm Composition just yet. I think that a liquid swarm has merit, the design just needs to be tweaked so that it is playable and not a munchkin attempt to avoid EMP. From a game designer point of view, there has to be an in game need for such a morph first though. Only then will this type of synthmorph will add to the overall universe.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Hmm, so what are the munchkin problems with my design? Just the EMP resistance? I guess that depends on how deadly you want to make EMP for swarm systems. In game, I can see plenty of uses for a granular material morph in terms of manipulation flexibility, speed of movement and especially power distribution: having all swarm units run their own power units misses the economies of scale of having a flexible internal energy distribution system. Swarmanoids would seem to have a rather short range before they need to replenish their internal resources. (I love munchkins. I usually annihilate them utterly in my games by giving them what they want... )
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King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Quicksilver
I see it resisting cold, currents & winds better (and not becoming a leaf in the wind). Perhaps it resists sudden airlock air-venting better. Probably used in water, ice, hurricane &or lightning rich environments.
Psyfer Psyfer's picture
Re: Quicksilver
One flaw that I could see with the granular morph is information distrubution. There's no way known that it can store it's memory in one (or even a dozen) granular bots, so it would have to distribut the information accross hundreds of them throughout the swarm. Should it loose ot have damaged a signifcant portion of it's microbots, the effect could be comparable to a Bio having a stroke. Also, good luck implanting any sort of tech in the swarm and maintaining it's fluidity.
Just another Ghost in the Machine...
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Quicksilver
I think the information distribution issue is true for all swarmbots. Destroy enough of them, and the remnant will form a gamma-fork. Which is OK with me. Always fun to have creepy brain-damaged versions of the PCs around. ;-) Note that the Quicksilver is not a real liquid, but a granular material. Lots of little bots linking together and moving, only looking like a fluid when viewed from afar. So they can of course drag other things with them, especially if they have the right smart surfaces. A lot like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJOubyiITsE&NR=1 (although much smaller, more numerous and much faster). So I think at least small tech could be kept inside the morph - but it won't fit through small holes of course.
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Arenamontanus wrote:
Hmm, so what are the munchkin problems with my design? Just the EMP resistance? I guess that depends on how deadly you want to make EMP for swarm systems. In game, I can see plenty of uses for a granular material morph in terms of manipulation flexibility, speed of movement and especially power distribution: having all swarm units run their own power units misses the economies of scale of having a flexible internal energy distribution system. Swarmanoids would seem to have a rather short range before they need to replenish their internal resources. (I love munchkins. I usually annihilate them utterly in my games by giving them what they want... )
I was mainly talking in general. Personally I can see several applications for this type of morph.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Truthfully, if I were a GM, I wouldn't allow a PC to play one of these since they seem more like the tech level the TITANS have, rather than that possessed by the surviving posthumans.

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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Quicksilver
nick012000 wrote:
Truthfully, if I were a GM, I wouldn't allow a PC to play one of these since they seem more like the tech level the TITANS have, rather than that possessed by the surviving posthumans.
Interesting. So in what way is a swarmanoid humantech but a liquid bot TITAN-like?
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Quicksilver
nick012000 wrote:
Truthfully, if I were a GM, I wouldn't allow a PC to play one of these since they seem more like the tech level the TITANS have, rather than that possessed by the surviving posthumans.
If the "liquid" morph was basically a swarmoid morph that required physical contact then that wouldn't be beyond transhuman tech. I would agree that if the morph could act exactly like a liquid rather then liquid-like then that would be more TITAN then transhuman.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Quicksilver
A true "smart liquid" sounds hard to make with transhuman tech. Although one might make something like an amoeba, filled with a cytoskeleton of microtubuli/actin fibers (or a nanotech equivalent) that could crawl using pseudopodia. Put control into embedded micromachines that form an amorphous computing network, and you could at the very least get an interesting kind of liquid/gel bot. Doing high performance bulk computation (like running AGI) is likely hard for transhuman tech, but motile and sensing blobs is probably on the level of a school project. Amorphous computing is by the way quite relevant to EP, since this is likely how many nanosystems are organised. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_computing http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/projects/amorphous/ http://isandtcolloq.gsfc.nasa.gov/fall2002/presentations/abelson.ppt Lots of little local simple processors sending short-range messages, forming patterns of activity or making products with large-scale order.
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Quicksilver
I always thought of something like this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkvpEfAPXn4&NR=1&feature=fvwp ) only on a micro level (with each swarmoid being about 10 times the size of a nanobot (so it has the needed space for stuff like a cortical stack)).
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Quicksilver
The swarm robots the swarmanoid uses are about the size of your typical beetle; maybe the size of the last digit of your thumb. You're proposing shrinking them by an order of magnitude; I just don't think transhumans have the tech to fit a brain into something that small. At most, you'd get something like the Replicator blocks from Stargate, without the Grey Goo-style Von Neumanning or the assorted supertech abilities they have,

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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Quicksilver
nick012000 wrote:
The swarm robots the swarmanoid uses are about the size of your typical beetle; maybe the size of the last digit of your thumb. You're proposing shrinking them by an order of magnitude; I just don't think transhumans have the tech to fit a brain into something that small.
In that case, exactly what are the medichines and oracles doing in the nanoenhancement section? Not to mention the nanoswarms. I would say that human tech quite firmly can make microscale robots with some pretty hefty intelligence.
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King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Quicksilver
nick012000 wrote:
The swarm robots the swarmanoid uses are about the size of your typical beetle; maybe the size of the last digit of your thumb. You're proposing shrinking them by an order of magnitude; I just don't think transhumans have the tech to fit a brain into something that small.
But still fit in the size of a beetle? Well, looking at the rules. the brain distributed through out all of the swarm (swarm composition 311), the Swarmanoid, is stated as insect sized (both at p145 & 311). If the swarm is melded together its child-sized. Confusion could occur about the size of individual parts of a swarmanoid. Since at At page 328 (nanoswarms & microswarms) the line is more blured, Microswarms (also described as insect sized) but described as the size of a grain of sand or a flea. Swarm composition p311. points towards page 328 for combat rules.
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Arenamontanus wrote:
nick012000 wrote:
The swarm robots the swarmanoid uses are about the size of your typical beetle; maybe the size of the last digit of your thumb. You're proposing shrinking them by an order of magnitude; I just don't think transhumans have the tech to fit a brain into something that small.
In that case, exactly what are the medichines and oracles doing in the nanoenhancement section? Not to mention the nanoswarms. I would say that human tech quite firmly can make microscale robots with some pretty hefty intelligence.
Transhuman nanoswarms [i]aren't sapient[/i]. Only TITAN ones are. I don't doubt that they could build one of these, but I don't think you'd be able to fit an ego into one. Rice-grain sized microbot swarms don't seem to be capable of holding them either, since they're mentioned in the Nanoswarm section and said nanoswarms are only capable of pre-programmed actions.

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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Arenamontanus wrote:
Interesting. So in what way is a swarmanoid humantech but a liquid bot TITAN-like?
First off, because it is a collection of far smaller machines than a swarmanoid capable of acting as a morph. Also, the ability to do SOM tests is so far restricted ONLY to TITAN-based swarm technology. Even with a -30 penalty, it's a very hefty advantage. As a recommendation, I'd say that it still shouldn't do SOM tests, and while EMP weapons still do full damage, the swarm does not incur a -10 penalty. If that doesn't seem reasonable, then at the very least EMP weapons should do full damage when the quicksilver is scattered (disrupting its automated remerging abilities). The biggest problem I see is the size. Individual swarmanoid bots seem to be just big enough to house tiny propulsion systems, most of the contents of a standard computer (computers seem to be very small, considering the size of mesh inserts) within which a portion of the ego is housed and synched with other parts of the swarm, and a grape-sized cortical stack each. I don't know how the extremely tiny bugs of the quicksilver are capable of housing a cortical stack, or running a mind individually. Only TITAN nanoswarms seem to be capable of that intelligence.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Quicksilver
It seems pretty absurd to assume a swarm-morph must be totally unable to do *any* SOM tests. Saying that it must be impossible for a flexible body to swim because it is composed of small parts rather than one big device seems pretty odd. Personally I prefer to change the rules to what fits the logic of the game world, not the other way around. I think the EMP issue is interesting: where are the destructive currents induced? If we assume the morph is pretty conductive most EMP energy will be spread over the surface (where it will do damage), but as I envision my design (basically the classic utility fog/blockbot system with units gripping each other) there could also be long, conductive lines in the interior that would tend to be overloaded. To really complicate things, I was envisioning this as a morph intended to be a bit hardened against EMP, so there are likely countermeasures for regenerating/replacing broken antennas, avoiding long conductive paths etc. I quite like the idea that EMP is worse when the morph is scattered: more surface area and more need for long-range communication. At the very least EMP might impair reassembly for a while as the surviving blobs restore themselves. I think we all agree on that human-designed swarms with intelligence have decently large units, probably on the order of a few millimetres. And most communications is optoelectronic. Given other morphs like the dragonfly the minimal cyberbrain is likely a few cubic centimetres of nanocircuitry in volume. Now, let's assume that each unit is three millimetres large. 90% of the volume is propulsion, but that leaves 2.7 mm3 of brain per unit. If we have 10 cm3 of total brain, that means just 3,703 units (total volume 100 millilitres) are enough to house the whole brain. If the total volume of the morph is 0.1 cubic meter (very roughly humansized) there is space for a thousand-fold redundancy. Delays: if the most remote two units are two meters away from each other, a signal takes 6 nanoseconds to go from one to the other. Lets increase that ten times due to routing delays. 60 nanoseconds is still much much smaller than the normal delays in the brain (on the order of a millisecond, more than 16,000 times larger), so there is no risk the brains will get seriously out of sync (at least due to hardware; the software routing and robustness problems make me shudder).
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Arenamontanus wrote:
It seems pretty absurd to assume a swarm-morph must be totally unable to do *any* SOM tests. Saying that it must be impossible for a flexible body to swim because it is composed of small parts rather than one big device seems pretty odd. Personally I prefer to change the rules to what fits the logic of the game world, not the other way around.
Remember that you do not need to make tests to go at default speeds. If the quicksilver has a propulsion form that allows it to travel through water, it can do so without swimming tests. The tests are only required if you wish to push faster, and that's something that can't be done. It's the same with swarmanoids; you can't sprint in child form. Your body simply does not have the cohesiveness for applied force.
Arenamontanus wrote:
I think the EMP issue is interesting: where are the destructive currents induced? If we assume the morph is pretty conductive most EMP energy will be spread over the surface (where it will do damage), but as I envision my design (basically the classic utility fog/blockbot system with units gripping each other) there could also be long, conductive lines in the interior that would tend to be overloaded. To really complicate things, I was envisioning this as a morph intended to be a bit hardened against EMP, so there are likely countermeasures for regenerating/replacing broken antennas, avoiding long conductive paths etc. I quite like the idea that EMP is worse when the morph is scattered: more surface area and more need for long-range communication. At the very least EMP might impair reassembly for a while as the surviving blobs restore themselves.
While it's true that less surface area is key to EMP effectiveness, do note that this swarm is in the form of a liquid puddle. That means it top and bottom surface area is massive, as its entire mass is virtually flat to the ground. It isn't too illogical to think that it would be still quite vulnerable to EMP, just as other swarms are. That said, I think negating the -10 penalty goes a long way to showing their ability to be hardened to EMP. Despite being damaged by it, they are no further hindered by the effects of an electromagnetic pulse, due to the swarm's connectivity.
Arenamontanus wrote:
I think we all agree on that human-designed swarms with intelligence have decently large units, probably on the order of a few millimetres. And most communications is optoelectronic. Given other morphs like the dragonfly the minimal cyberbrain is likely a few cubic centimetres of nanocircuitry in volume. Now, let's assume that each unit is three millimetres large. 90% of the volume is propulsion, but that leaves 2.7 mm3 of brain per unit. If we have 10 cm3 of total brain, that means just 3,703 units (total volume 100 millilitres) are enough to house the whole brain. If the total volume of the morph is 0.1 cubic meter (very roughly humansized) there is space for a thousand-fold redundancy.
I think it unfair to assume that the cyberbrain within synthmorphs is always situated in what must be a head. Much smaller morphs, like the individual swarmanoids and the dragonfly, are likely to have much more of their body mass dedicated to housing the ego. That leaves little room for propulsion, cortical stack, and other such devices that might be in there. Then again, the dragonfly isn't that small. It's a meter long.
Arenamontanus wrote:
Delays: if the most remote two units are two meters away from each other, a signal takes 6 nanoseconds to go from one to the other. Lets increase that ten times due to routing delays. 60 nanoseconds is still much much smaller than the normal delays in the brain (on the order of a millisecond, more than 16,000 times larger), so there is no risk the brains will get seriously out of sync (at least due to hardware; the software routing and robustness problems make me shudder).
I can agree with that, but it's all the more reason that this morph should not have the degree of invulnerability to EMP that your original write-up gave it. Even while connected, it probably still uses radio signals to further ensure a lack of latency between the synched components of the ego housed throughout the morph, if only to speed data transfer up.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Also, one of the other posters who works in the field said in another thread that it's basically impossible to sheild nanoswarms from EMP, since their manipulating appendages are the right size for them to resonate with the EMP field and set off their fuel supplies. Your puddle-swarm might well be similarly vulnerable.

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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Quicksilver
I don't mind adding game balancing tweaks to the morph. But I prefer to make them so they make physical sense.
Decivre wrote:
Arenamontanus wrote:
It seems pretty absurd to assume a swarm-morph must be totally unable to do *any* SOM tests. Saying that it must be impossible for a flexible body to swim because it is composed of small parts rather than one big device seems pretty odd. Personally I prefer to change the rules to what fits the logic of the game world, not the other way around.
Remember that you do not need to make tests to go at default speeds. If the quicksilver has a propulsion form that allows it to travel through water, it can do so without swimming tests. The tests are only required if you wish to push faster, and that's something that can't be done. It's the same with swarmanoids; you can't sprint in child form. Your body simply does not have the cohesiveness for applied force.
But if you are an undulating flat sheet, you should be able to swim very well. And if you anticipate the hydrodynamics you should be able to swim faster (however, that also suggests that the normal swim skill might be useless and one better use skills such as Swim: Quicksilver or Physics: Applied fluid dynamics). Maybe the shapeshifting abilities were not clear enough in my writeup; I think many people assume it is a proper liquid rather than a granular conglomerate. What I have in mind is very much like the system discussed in http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/883Toth-Fejel.pdf Note that systems like this do not make use of antennas to send signals from unit to unit, but actually have small optical connectors between neighbouring units. Antennas are still there since detached droplets need to be guided and everything wants to be on the mesh, but they are not absolutely necessary for function. This is why I think it would be pretty EMP resistant. The argument that EMP is particularly nasty against nanomachines also do not apply since we are talking macroscopic (mesoscopic?) devices here: if EMP is deadly to devices like this, then we should also assume flexbots and anything with a bush robot hand to be broken by EMP. Which actually makes sense: I think the claim in the core book that since most devices use optoelectronics EMP has few effects on normal technological environments might be wrong. Advanced technology contains extreme numbers of tiny components (not just antennas) that could be affected. Nanocilia used to transport things inside the self-repair system, the long conductive paths of a chameleon suit, the metamaterial shielding (*especially* metamaterials, since they are essentially a crystal of antennas!) - all sorts of devices depend on potentially vulnerable subsystems.
Quote:
Arenamontanus wrote:
Delays: if the most remote two units are two meters away from each other, a signal takes 6 nanoseconds to go from one to the other. Lets increase that ten times due to routing delays. 60 nanoseconds is still much much smaller than the normal delays in the brain (on the order of a millisecond, more than 16,000 times larger), so there is no risk the brains will get seriously out of sync (at least due to hardware; the software routing and robustness problems make me shudder).
I can agree with that, but it's all the more reason that this morph should not have the degree of invulnerability to EMP that your original write-up gave it. Even while connected, it probably still uses radio signals to further ensure a lack of latency between the synched components of the ego housed throughout the morph, if only to speed data transfer up.
Maybe. But there is no real speed advantage here, since optoelectronic signals and radio are nearly equal in speed. Radio also has bandwidth limitations that are quite severe compared to parallel bundles of optics - not to mention the amount of easily detectable radio noise a constantly updating distributed mind would produce. In the case of this morph (and the swarm) another limitation by the way is that the odd shape and ways of locomotion are very alien to most transhumans, making the integration test much harder. (Exotic morph, -30).
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Arenamontanus wrote:
I don't mind adding game balancing tweaks to the morph. But I prefer to make them so they make physical sense. But if you are an undulating flat sheet, you should be able to swim very well. And if you anticipate the hydrodynamics you should be able to swim faster (however, that also suggests that the normal swim skill might be useless and one better use skills such as Swim: Quicksilver or Physics: Applied fluid dynamics). Maybe the shapeshifting abilities were not clear enough in my writeup; I think many people assume it is a proper liquid rather than a granular conglomerate. What I have in mind is very much like the system discussed in http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/883Toth-Fejel.pdf Note that systems like this do not make use of antennas to send signals from unit to unit, but actually have small optical connectors between neighbouring units. Antennas are still there since detached droplets need to be guided and everything wants to be on the mesh, but they are not absolutely necessary for function. This is why I think it would be pretty EMP resistant. The argument that EMP is particularly nasty against nanomachines also do not apply since we are talking macroscopic (mesoscopic?) devices here: if EMP is deadly to devices like this, then we should also assume flexbots and anything with a bush robot hand to be broken by EMP. Which actually makes sense: I think the claim in the core book that since most devices use optoelectronics EMP has few effects on normal technological environments might be wrong. Advanced technology contains extreme numbers of tiny components (not just antennas) that could be affected. Nanocilia used to transport things inside the self-repair system, the long conductive paths of a chameleon suit, the metamaterial shielding (*especially* metamaterials, since they are essentially a crystal of antennas!) - all sorts of devices depend on potentially vulnerable subsystems.
If it's intended to swim well, then give it a high rate of movement for water... but that still doesn't mean it should be capable of SOM tests. The idea behind the limitation is that you are a swarm; your body simply does not have the cohesiveness to create applied force in unison. Even when traveling, your body is actually an army of smaller units moving together, as opposed to a single body exerting individual parts to push yourself beyond your normal capabilities. Even if you could sprint or swim faster, you'd have to make an individual roll for [i]every single unit that makes up the swarm[/i]. If even a single unit fails, the rest of the group will be slowed in order to maintain group coordination. That somewhat puts a damper on any attempts to use SOM tests, no matter the type.
Arenamontanus wrote:
Maybe. But there is no real speed advantage here, since optoelectronic signals and radio are nearly equal in speed. Radio also has bandwidth limitations that are quite severe compared to parallel bundles of optics - not to mention the amount of easily detectable radio noise a constantly updating distributed mind would produce.
Except those bundles of optics are going to have major hurdles in data transfer. Remember that the morph is millions of bots. Even connected via optics, for data to run from one end of the swarm to the other essentially runs that data through a few million routers. A direct connection would surely be quick, but not every individual bot will have that direct connection to every other bot. Each will at most be connected to at most a dozen, while it has to communicate with millions.
Arenamontanus wrote:
In the case of this morph (and the swarm) another limitation by the way is that the odd shape and ways of locomotion are very alien to most transhumans, making the integration test much harder. (Exotic morph, -30).
Yeah, I can see that. It'd probably get similar penalties as integrating to a swarmanoid.
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King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Regarding SOM, couldn't the Swarm utilize Static friction & Tensile Strength to cheat?
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Quicksilver
King Shere wrote:
Regarding SOM, couldn't the Swarm utilize Static friction & Tensile Strength to cheat?
Not really. Even if the swarm is interconnected enough to act in unison, it probably isn't a swarm at all and shouldn't gain any of the benefits (like the difficulty to damage it). By that point, it'd be more appropriate to call it a fluid-styled flexbot.
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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Decivre wrote:
If it's intended to swim well, then give it a high rate of movement for water... but that still doesn't mean it should be capable of SOM tests. The idea behind the limitation is that you are a swarm; your body simply does not have the cohesiveness to create applied force in unison. Even when traveling, your body is actually an army of smaller units moving together, as opposed to a single body exerting individual parts to push yourself beyond your normal capabilities. Even if you could sprint or swim faster, you'd have to make an individual roll for [i]every single unit that makes up the swarm[/i]. If even a single unit fails, the rest of the group will be slowed in order to maintain group coordination.
In order to work as a body the units will have to use "macros" to do things: the controlling ego doesn't give detailed commands where every single unit is going, but rather general goals like "I want to go that way", "push towards that", "undulate at 3 Hz with a wavelength of 30 cm and amplitude of 4 cm", "extend a pseudopod through that hole". If you had to give detail commands nothing would work (just like a human couldn't control their body by giving direct muscle group twitch commands; the motor cortex actually turns the prefrontal goals and macros into motion sequences, which are further refined as you go down the spinal cord). These commands then get interpreted by the morph software and turned into working "games" (moves of units relative to each other, either just flexing of connectors or actual detach/move/attach sequences that changes the shape). There might be hooks for running your own macros and detail commands, but that is for the experts and morphnerds - most users will want to move and act, and that's it. So I doubt the ego will experience its body as lots of units as long as everything is fine. That is the whole point, otherwise it would be a swarmanoid. Of course, when things go wrong the complexity of the body becomes far too noticeable... ("Help! I have splashed and I cannot get together!")
Quote:
Arenamontanus wrote:
Maybe. But there is no real speed advantage here, since optoelectronic signals and radio are nearly equal in speed. Radio also has bandwidth limitations that are quite severe compared to parallel bundles of optics - not to mention the amount of easily detectable radio noise a constantly updating distributed mind would produce.
Except those bundles of optics are going to have major hurdles in data transfer. Remember that the morph is millions of bots. Even connected via optics, for data to run from one end of the swarm to the other essentially runs that data through a few million routers. A direct connection would surely be quick, but not every individual bot will have that direct connection to every other bot. Each will at most be connected to at most a dozen, while it has to communicate with millions.
If we assume cubes, each will at most have six connections. A 0.1 cubic meter Quicksilver will have about 3.7 million units if they are 3 mm sized. So a message from one side to another from a puddle-shaped form would pass through about 666 units, which might be a bit much for current internet routing protocols but doesn't seem that hard to implement with a more specialized protocol. Since distance is closely linked to physical coordinates you can actually make routing relatively efficient. Still, if every unit wants to send a one-bit message per second to every other unit that is 3.7 megabit/s per unit, and each unit will on average be between at least a few thousand units (some geometry complications here) - so we should expect a gigabit/s through each unit. Doesn't sound impossible to do with EP tech or even near future tech (with wavelength-division multiplexing we can currently do terabits per second over optical fibres), but it is a hassle. A more plausible calculation would be based on the human brain. Assume we distribute the 10^11 neurons across the units, putting about 27,000 simulated neurons per unit (about the complexity of a dumb insect). That is a few cortical columns and might actually be a pretty convenient simulation size (lots of local connectivity gets done inside the unit). About 10% of the connections are long-range and would link to other units. These need an update rate of at least 1000 Hz to think at human speed. So that means each unit will send and receive 27 gigabit per second. Sounds like I might need those terabits per second after all :-) (Or, more sensibly, clump neural processing into specialized units, have a few others do morph control and have most nodes just obey the brain units) The basic design challenge is to keep long-range communications rare enough. This isn't unsolvable, I know some tricks from neural simulations on supercomputers (which are not too different from the above scenario: you want to lump computations cleverly on processors to minimize communications) that can give you orders of magnitude increase (e.g. just send action potentials and not "nothing happens" messages). But I guess it is overkill for a roleplaying game to try to optimize the implementation... I'll do that when I try to *build* one of these beasties sometime near the singularity ;-) I think radio has one advantage: it can broadcast things - at a low bandwidth, but with no need for routing. I would probably use this mainly for homing between disconnected units and *especially* for the handshake protocol merging droplets. You don't want to accidentally merge with the enemy... (And here we get a beautiful argument for why EMP still is a major problem for the Quicksilver - as long as it doesn't separate it will be fine, but having been EMPed it will have a very hard time rejoining parts until it is repaired. It will essentially lose its "regeneration" after one or two EMPs.)
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Arenamontanus wrote:
In order to work as a body the units will have to use "macros" to do things: the controlling ego doesn't give detailed commands where every single unit is going, but rather general goals like "I want to go that way", "push towards that", "undulate at 3 Hz with a wavelength of 30 cm and amplitude of 4 cm", "extend a pseudopod through that hole". If you had to give detail commands nothing would work (just like a human couldn't control their body by giving direct muscle group twitch commands; the motor cortex actually turns the prefrontal goals and macros into motion sequences, which are further refined as you go down the spinal cord). These commands then get interpreted by the morph software and turned into working "games" (moves of units relative to each other, either just flexing of connectors or actual detach/move/attach sequences that changes the shape). There might be hooks for running your own macros and detail commands, but that is for the experts and morphnerds - most users will want to move and act, and that's it. So I doubt the ego will experience its body as lots of units as long as everything is fine. That is the whole point, otherwise it would be a swarmanoid. Of course, when things go wrong the complexity of the body becomes far too noticeable... ("Help! I have splashed and I cannot get together!")
You know, the morph is starting to sound less and less like a swarm, and more and more like a variant of the flexbot. Perhaps you should look into that morph and adjust this one's design accordingly. For instance, the primary advantage of swarms in combat is that their staggered formation makes them difficult to injure with physical weapons; punching a swarm is like punching a cloud. You are likely to miss all but one or two units with any impact. This swarm is different because it maintains cohesion; you should be able to hit it with a weapon, likely strike a number of units (unfortunately due to its cohesion), and therefore deal standard damage. Flexbots, on the other hand, are capable of flexing their shape in a variety of ways, but hav the cohesion to apply strength. If anything, this morph might be a collection of much smaller flexbots utilizing Modular Design (page 311) which shift their structure constantly, maintaining a liquid-like consistency, while remaining essentially a non-swarm.
Arenamontanus wrote:
If we assume cubes, each will at most have six connections. A 0.1 cubic meter Quicksilver will have about 3.7 million units if they are 3 mm sized. So a message from one side to another from a puddle-shaped form would pass through about 666 units, which might be a bit much for current internet routing protocols but doesn't seem that hard to implement with a more specialized protocol. Since distance is closely linked to physical coordinates you can actually make routing relatively efficient. Still, if every unit wants to send a one-bit message per second to every other unit that is 3.7 megabit/s per unit, and each unit will on average be between at least a few thousand units (some geometry complications here) - so we should expect a gigabit/s through each unit. Doesn't sound impossible to do with EP tech or even near future tech (with wavelength-division multiplexing we can currently do terabits per second over optical fibres), but it is a hassle. A more plausible calculation would be based on the human brain. Assume we distribute the 10^11 neurons across the units, putting about 27,000 simulated neurons per unit (about the complexity of a dumb insect). That is a few cortical columns and might actually be a pretty convenient simulation size (lots of local connectivity gets done inside the unit). About 10% of the connections are long-range and would link to other units. These need an update rate of at least 1000 Hz to think at human speed. So that means each unit will send and receive 27 gigabit per second. Sounds like I might need those terabits per second after all :-) (Or, more sensibly, clump neural processing into specialized units, have a few others do morph control and have most nodes just obey the brain units) The basic design challenge is to keep long-range communications rare enough. This isn't unsolvable, I know some tricks from neural simulations on supercomputers (which are not too different from the above scenario: you want to lump computations cleverly on processors to minimize communications) that can give you orders of magnitude increase (e.g. just send action potentials and not "nothing happens" messages). But I guess it is overkill for a roleplaying game to try to optimize the implementation... I'll do that when I try to *build* one of these beasties sometime near the singularity ;-) I think radio has one advantage: it can broadcast things - at a low bandwidth, but with no need for routing. I would probably use this mainly for homing between disconnected units and *especially* for the handshake protocol merging droplets. You don't want to accidentally merge with the enemy... (And here we get a beautiful argument for why EMP still is a major problem for the Quicksilver - as long as it doesn't separate it will be fine, but having been EMPed it will have a very hard time rejoining parts until it is repaired. It will essentially lose its "regeneration" after one or two EMPs.)
Except we are talking about a morph with a shifting structure. 666 connections would be standard if no individual component ever moved, but such a straight line would be a bad idea if connections were constantly shifting (and they will). A likely and better scenario would be something akin to TCP/IP with an updatable packet structure. Each unit sends a packet of data to all connected units, which then update that packet with their own data, along with any data they have received from all other packets, and do the same. It would involve a lot of redundancy, but be a very difficult protocol to interfere with. The biggest advantage with a radio signal would be a loss of latency. A signal that travels a distance the length of the swarm would be good enough to keep every single unit updated with information from every single other unit, virtually all the time. It would likely use this sort of connection the majority of the time, while switching to the slower packet structure when stealth is more key... unfortunately slowing the morph's overall reflexes.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Decivre wrote:
Not really. Even if the swarm is interconnected enough to act in unison, it probably isn't a swarm at all and shouldn't gain any of the benefits (like the difficulty to damage it). By that point, it'd be more appropriate to call it a fluid-styled flexbot.
And a Swarm morph cant "temporarily" act as a flex bot?
Decivre wrote:
You know, the morph is starting to sound less and less like a swarm, and more and more like a variant of the flexbot. Perhaps you should look into that morph and adjust this one's design accordingly. For instance, the primary advantage of swarms in combat is that their staggered formation makes them difficult to injure with physical weapons; punching a swarm is like punching a cloud. You are likely to miss all but one or two units with any impact. This swarm is different because it maintains cohesion; you should be able to hit it with a weapon, likely strike a number of units (unfortunately due to its cohesion), and therefore deal standard damage. Flexbots, on the other hand, are capable of flexing their shape in a variety of ways, but hav the cohesion to apply strength. If anything, this morph might be a collection of much smaller flexbots utilizing Modular Design (page 311) which shift their structure constantly, maintaining a liquid-like consistency, while remaining essentially a non-swarm.
If the swarm shift (for the time being) its form into a flexbot approach (or into a statue of a child), it looses many advantages of its "Swarm form"-It should gain temporarily some advantages of its temporarily "static form". "Ants as a Bridge for Other Ants" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBTjQMtbViU
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Quicksilver
King Shere wrote:
And a Swarm morph cant "temporarily" act as a flex bot?
Sure, but this doesn't seem temporary. It's standard structure is as an attached pool of liquid, not a free floating cloud, or rolling stampede of bug-sized bots. It's a flat mini-flexbot army merged together, and should probably be treated as such.
King Shere wrote:
If the swarm shift (for the time being) its form into a flexbot approach (or into a statue of a child), it looses many advantages of its "Swarm form"-It should gain temporarily some advantages of its temporarily "static form". "Ants as a Bridge for Other Ants" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBTjQMtbViU
It's static form isn't temporary, it's standard. The only time I've seen it mentioned that it ever seperates is on a temporary measure, during which the individual units that make up the quicksilver quickly and automatically re-merge into its flexbot-like structure. For the record, flexbots aren't rigid bots. They can shift their mass constantly during usage. They are the shape-shifting morphs of the game right now.
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King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Quicksilver
Well, I was asking about the general class Swarm morphs, including Quicksilver & not it exclusively. My understanding now then is that The rulebooks Swarm morph can "meld" into a childsized shape (p145). All Swarm morphs regardless of shapes (including melded shape) cant lift, hold & grab. That Swarms doesn't have Modular Design & cannot create Structured forms to overcome challenges. No structurally sound sandcastle melded swarm of grain-sized parts . These insect sized robots cant make a bridge of individuals (unlike ants) for them-selfs a group (and thus "cheat" in certain SOM tasks). And Flex bots cant use their modular design to get a swarm form. That it would be Titan tech for a Swarm (not just quicksilver) to have modular design, capable of structured solution shape-shifting( like a bridge).
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Quicksilver
King Shere wrote:
Well, I was asking about the general class Swarm morphs, including Quicksilver & not it exclusively. My understanding now then is that The rulebooks Swarm morph can "meld" into a childsized shape (p145). All Swarm morphs regardless of shapes (including melded shape) cant lift, hold & grab. That Swarms doesn't have Modular Design & cannot create Structured forms to overcome challenges. No structurally sound sandcastle melded swarm of grain-sized parts . These insect sized robots cant make a bridge of individuals (unlike ants) for them-selfs a group (and thus "cheat" in certain SOM tasks). And Flex bots cant use their modular design to get a swarm form. That it would be Titan tech for a Swarm (not just quicksilver) to have modular design, capable of structured solution shape-shifting( like a bridge).
Swarms aren't necessarily restricted from having modular design, which is why I proposed the modification that I did. In my proposition, the quicksilver is either one of two things: [list][*]A variant of the flexbot in which its structure is designed to have a puddle-like form and utilize its flexible body to be a subterfuge synthmorph. [*]A collection of bug-sized flexbots who may crawl along the ground like a swarm (with all the weaknesses of a swarm) or merge together to gain strength and cohesion (while losing all swarm advantages so long as they do so).[/list] Both seem to fit the design well and both have the occuring theme (a "liquid" morph capable of being immune to EMP) However, I agree. I don't believe that human tech should be capable of getting past the disadvantages of swarm technology yet. The gap between human and TITAN technology is a core element of the setting. If he's okay with it, then he can use it in his campaign, but I think its an off-the-wall design as-is.
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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Quicksilver
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