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Some random questions about the setting

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Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture
Some random questions about the setting
I'm reading the Mars chapter of Sunward, and it reminded me why I love Eclipse Phase as a setting, but its sci-fi elements can be really confusing and hard-hitting for someone that really isn't tech-savvy or understands the first thing about economics or chemistry. It constantly mentions physical offices existing, yet in the core rulebook they always go on about how most businesses are virtual, with few physical assets. What exactly would be the uses for physical offices for hypercorps? What exactly EXISTS as buildings in habitats these days, other than residential areas if most of all the hypercorps' assets are on the mesh? I know things like restaurants (maybe?), shops, brothels, schools, and other stuff still exist, but what else? What wouldn't be around anymore other than the obvious (movie theaters for example)? It's mentioned that people grow crops on Mars. What would the point be of that if you can just nanofabricate all the food you want? Is it out of nostalgia or culture, or is there a more practical reason for growing crops the natural way? And lastly, how many people do you think still enjoy actual cooked food over the nanofabbed stuff? Is there really a difference in taste (or quality)? I'd like to think they are not a minority since cooking has always been one of humanity's staple skills---and frequent sources of pride. Shoving raw materials into a metal square and devouring the pizza pie that emerges an hour later, I would think, would be rather bland, both in taste and in execution.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address
Leodiensian Leodiensian's picture
On offices... I like to think
On offices... I like to think of them less like traditional office blocks (though in some conservatives parts of the system you might find them) and more like those ultra-swish "modern villages" you see cropping up in first world cities - building incorporating apartments, offices and other amenities such as eateries etc. It fits in with the idea of corporations replacing traditional cultural icons such as nations or ethnicities. The hypercorps are extremely wealthy and can be quite extravagant with it, meaning some gerontocrat might indulge in the inefficient nostalgia of creating your typical office building from the 21st century down to the gurgling of the water coolers. More progressive, tech-savvy hypercapitalists would have physical presences to their business only as much is logistically necessary - you need to have somewhere to ship and receive things etc. On everything else in habitats - this is largely left up to the GM running things in that particular hab. What do you think will take hold in this hab and who goes there? You'll find transportation infrastructure, physical markets, body banks and backup servers of course but you'll find things catering to almost every taste imaginable - including the criminal ones. On crop growing, people in the Inner System who want to make their own stuff CAN'T nanofab it because access to nanofabrication technology is restricted by the hypercorps (who want to maintain a traditional capitalist economy). Thus if you want food you don't have to buy from a store, you must grow it. On food, I always like to imagine nanofabbed food as being quite bland but nutritiously solid - think of a slab of tofu or other generic protein-stuff and that it is then subsequently cooked to provide flavor. This is a dynamic I worked into a Scum Swarm I wrote where one ship was made up of cooking afficionados who often held Iron Chef challenges to make the tastiest food out of the blandest ingredients that could be nanofabbed. I think restaurants would largely take two forms in Eclipse Phase - first, budget places that cater to people who just need to eat something and secondly places like the teppanyaki restaurants of today, where the meal and the show are kind of one and the same.
LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Noble Pigeon wrote:It's
Noble Pigeon wrote:
It's mentioned that people grow crops on Mars. What would the point be of that if you can just nanofabricate all the food you want? Is it out of nostalgia or culture, or is there a more practical reason for growing crops the natural way?
For one, plants are very, very good at producing the structures that make up new plants. It's not necessarily more efficient to design a nanoscale multitool to do the same job; your nanofactory may be able to produce both wheat-paste, rye-paste, maize-paste and rice-paste, but it might not be as efficient at making rice as the rice plant or as efficient at making rye as... well... rye. Secondly, while nanofactories are/should be fully capable of putting together amino acids to form proteins, lipids and carbohydrates into food pastes, things like texture or consistency may be sought after in ways that aren't easily replicated by a general nanoscale assembler. (See, for example, the fact that biomorphs are grown and not assembled for an example of where macroscale structures aren't assembled at nanomanufacturing mass-rates.)
Noble Pigeon wrote:
And lastly, how many people do you think still enjoy actual cooked food over the nanofabbed stuff? Is there really a difference in taste (or quality)?
I'd say "almost everyone"; a nanofactory isn't going to make you a grilled chicken, it's going to make you a lukewarm chicken-protein paste. A food-nanofactory probably includes a microwave oven for heating the paste to hot-meal temperatures, but you're still going to be eating paste or processed paste (like cereal, as mentioned in the core book). For much the same reason that most people today don't eat just microwaved tofu right out of the package, people in Eclipse Phase probably prepare their own food or have a robot prepare it for them. (Although "preparation" may be as little as to heat water and boil dump processed noodle-paste and spices". It would be rather easy to make a machine that does this in addition to nanomanufacturing noodle-paste, but the actual preparation would be a macroscale process akin to owning a small food-processing plant, and not be a trait of nanomanufacturing per se. (Also, you'll probably soon tire of boiled noodle-paste, and seek out something a little more elaborate.))
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Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture
Leodiensian wrote:
Leodiensian wrote:
On crop growing, people in the Inner System who want to make their own stuff CAN'T nanofab it because access to nanofabrication technology is restricted by the hypercorps (who want to maintain a traditional capitalist economy). Thus if you want food you don't have to buy from a store, you must grow it.
Really? I was under the impression that in most hypercorp habitats, things like basic clothing, food and water were essentially free to get from nanofabs since they use the "transitional" economy, not the old economy. But if you wanted to get something more fancy like smart clothing or batteries or such you had to pay a tax to fabricate it.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address
godmoney godmoney's picture
just wondering...
why do you feel a fabber would only be able to make a "paste" and not an actual chicken breast or hunk of meat? we can grow human bodies, fabricate complex alloys, etc...
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Leodiensian Leodiensian's picture
Noble Pigeon wrote:
Noble Pigeon wrote:
Really? I was under the impression that in most hypercorp habitats, things like basic clothing, food and water were essentially free to get from nanofabs since they use the "transitional" economy, not the old economy. But if you wanted to get something more fancy like smart clothing or batteries or such you had to pay a tax to fabricate it.
The transitional economy means it uses rep alongside credits as a way to get favors and services, not that certain stuff is entirely free. You can pay to get temporary licenses to nanofab certain things from people who own that particular copyright - say, a one-time right to manufacture an assault rifle from the weapons manufacturer. Beyond that, access to and use of nanofabrication technology is strictly controlled to maintain PC profits.
godmoney wrote:
why do you feel a fabber would only be able to make a "paste" and not an actual chicken breast or hunk of meat? we can grow human bodies, fabricate complex alloys, etc...
A fabber is only as good as the program in it, setting aside the differences in fabber models and their capabilities. You need to tell the fabber what to make because it's just a machine. Theoretically you could make the most delicious Michelin-quality food imaginable from a lump of feeder material so long as you had the appropriate program of "mouth-orgasm.exe". Advanced blueprints are expensive and relatively rare, whereas simpler blueprints such as "slab-o-protein.exe" are more widespread and easier to get a hold of for most people, or to make for yourself if you're a programmer. And remember that most people in the Inner System who nanofab stuff do so on one-shot licenses so if you had to choose between eating meat-slab for a year and doing a little work to make it more tasty or eating mouth-orgasm once and then being bankrupt for the rest of the month, what would you do? This is of course leaving aside that it seems more sensible to just clone-grow artificial beef in bulk rather than nano-assemble one steak.
LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
godmoney wrote:why do you
godmoney wrote:
why do you feel a fabber would only be able to make a "paste" and not an actual chicken breast or hunk of meat? we can grow human bodies, fabricate complex alloys, etc...
The human bodies are grown in vats and take over a year to grow. And alloys are much, much simpler than amino-acid chains, chemically speaking. That doesn't seem to indicate to me that nanoassembling a chicken breast is going to be something a fabber can do.
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Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture
Leodiensian wrote:
Leodiensian wrote:
The transitional economy means it uses rep alongside credits as a way to get favors and services, not that certain stuff is entirely free. You can pay to get temporary licenses to nanofab certain things from people who own that particular copyright - say, a one-time right to manufacture an assault rifle from the weapons manufacturer. Beyond that, access to and use of nanofabrication technology is strictly controlled to maintain PC profits.
Really? I was talking things more stuff that your everyday person uses rather than high powered assault rifles. From the core book: "Once the usage tax has been paid, food, clothing, furniture, and similar goods are all free. Raw materials, old, worn-out or unwanted goods, and various waste products are recycled into new goods. Residents of transitional economies need never experience hunger or any of the many other sorts of deprivation that much of humanity faced before the mid-21st century. Additionally, basic medical care is free in almost all transitional economy societies, to help insure that the populace is healthy, content, and productive." Meanwhile, stuff like smart clothing and furniture requires purchasing them, while rep is used for things like blueprints. I know they're tightly restricted for things like firearms but I don't think they're tight enough to restrict consumer goods or the like.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
A full on nanofabricator
A full on nanofabricator (cornucopia machine) can make delicate precision connections only a handful of molecules thick to build a high power computing device superior to anything available today that fits into the palm of your hand. I think it can manage the texture of chicken. And availability of patterns doesn’t hold water either because the first company to make a gourmet pizza, scan it in and sell it for $9.99 will make a fortune. The potential market is huge. The corporations will sell you a pattern for any item you want at a reasonable per unit produced price. The only exception being things they want you to be unable to get, like nukes. Such a meal would probably be resources 1 or 2. Not a lot of people can’t afford it but there are several reasons why it is mor convenient not to have it regularly. 1) A cornucopia machine takes resources level hours to make anything. So you have to plan your meal well in advance. Many people would prefer the 5 min preparation time from a maker. 2) Cornucopia machines are restricted in the inner system. You can access one but you can’t have one in your home. So you have the complications of eating out, and ordering 2 hours in advance. 3) Even a cheap maker can produce a moderate variety of interesting flavours. This only takes a handful of chemicals and you can change out some of the chemicals you stock if you want something new. Texture remains a bit bland, being past, noodle, and little lumpy thing (its actually a really short noodle) 4) It is far more energy efficient to produce food in a plant than a nanofaber. If you put 1000kwhours into a hydroponic garden you get more edible calories than if you put 1000kwhours into a cornucopia machine making food. If you grow your crop in sunlight it’s even better because plants are more effective than solar panels and solar panels are a larger initial investment than seeds. Even accounting for the expense of cheap robotic cooking labour grown food is cheaper than nanofabed food unless space to grow the food is unavailable. (even cheap maker paste is actually processed agricultural produce)
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
thezombiekat wrote:A full on
thezombiekat wrote:
A full on nanofabricator (cornucopia machine) can make delicate precision connections only a handful of molecules thick to build a high power computing device superior to anything available today that fits into the palm of your hand. I think it can manage the texture of chicken. And availability of patterns doesn’t hold water either because the first company to make a gourmet pizza, scan it in and sell it for $9.99 will make a fortune. The potential market is huge. The corporations will sell you a pattern for any item you want at a reasonable per unit produced price. The only exception being things they want you to be unable to get, like nukes.
No. That's how the extropians do it. In the Planetory Consortium the system is rigged. You are not allowed to sell such things cheaply. The good ol' capitalistic practices of cartels and price gouging is institutionalized to allow corporations to do business like they did in pre-abundance technology days. Cheap blueprints, license free fabbers and such are criminal items only found in the black markets, and dabbling in it will get you in deep legal trouble.
Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture
Smokeskin wrote:thezombiekat
Smokeskin wrote:
thezombiekat wrote:
A full on nanofabricator (cornucopia machine) can make delicate precision connections only a handful of molecules thick to build a high power computing device superior to anything available today that fits into the palm of your hand. I think it can manage the texture of chicken. And availability of patterns doesn’t hold water either because the first company to make a gourmet pizza, scan it in and sell it for $9.99 will make a fortune. The potential market is huge. The corporations will sell you a pattern for any item you want at a reasonable per unit produced price. The only exception being things they want you to be unable to get, like nukes.
No. That's how the extropians do it. In the Planetory Consortium the system is rigged. You are not allowed to sell such things cheaply. The good ol' capitalistic practices of cartels and price gouging is institutionalized to allow corporations to do business like they did in pre-abundance technology days. Cheap blueprints, license free fabbers and such are criminal items only found in the black markets, and dabbling in it will get you in deep legal trouble.
I'm curious how Morningstar and the LLA does things like that. Y'know what, that gives me an idea: Venus is now the capital of gourmet, authentic food, second only to Nytrondheim. All Venusian characters will now have French accents, GM mandate! To hell with post-nationalism!
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Or you could do Baking Bad -
Or you could do Baking Bad - a master chef makes his entry on the gourmet black market.
thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture
Smokeskin wrote:thezombiekat
Smokeskin wrote:
thezombiekat wrote:
A full on nanofabricator (cornucopia machine) can make delicate precision connections only a handful of molecules thick to build a high power computing device superior to anything available today that fits into the palm of your hand. I think it can manage the texture of chicken. And availability of patterns doesn’t hold water either because the first company to make a gourmet pizza, scan it in and sell it for $9.99 will make a fortune. The potential market is huge. The corporations will sell you a pattern for any item you want at a reasonable per unit produced price. The only exception being things they want you to be unable to get, like nukes.
No. That's how the extropians do it. In the Planetory Consortium the system is rigged. You are not allowed to sell such things cheaply. The good ol' capitalistic practices of cartels and price gouging is institutionalized to allow corporations to do business like they did in pre-abundance technology days. Cheap blueprints, license free fabbers and such are criminal items only found in the black markets, and dabbling in it will get you in deep legal trouble.
Going to have to call for a reference on that. The extropians would let you own a cornucopia machine privately, and expect you to pay license fees for what you make. The planetary consortium regulates hundreds of thousands of corporations, they are not all big. The books talked about starting one out of your mesh inserts. And for the most part they are in true competition. Anybody who designs blueprints for a product (that do not impinge on others licenses) can sell it for any price they want. The other problem is that there is more money in selling it cheap than expensive. And the PC is motivated by profit, they are not going to regulate that you can’t sell a product below a certain price unless there is a reason they want people to be unable to get it and nice tasting food helps create a docile society who believe they have more to loose from change than they have to gain. Only .1% of the population can afford 200 credit meals 1% can afford 50 credit meals, 95% can afford 10 credit meals. When you’re per unit cost is zero (as it is when you’re selling a licence to produce an item) there is more money to be made selling cheap meals to the masses than expensive ones to the upper crust. While I did suggest a small group would sell cheap and make huge amounts of money that could only happen if the big boys where more stupid than greedy. The big blueprint distributers are in fact pretty savvy business men. They know the low income demographic is big and have the resources to get a quality product to market faster, with better marketing and smoother distribution than any upstart. The working poor get there minor luxury, the rich get richer and there is no huge market gap for a small time provider to fill.
Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture
One other question I had:
One other question I had: None of the pregen characters appear to start off with blueprints of items. They start off with nanofabricators sometimes, but never blueprints. Is there something I'm missing, like you can't purchase blueprints at character creation, or what?
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address
bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
No, you can start with
No, you can start with blueprints. They cost 1 category higher than the item they're a blueprint for, that's all, and, let's face it--pregen characters are never optimized (plus, they probably wanted to avoid confusing the newbies--you know, the ones that you bring in for an introductory one-shot and who see "High Explosive Grenades" or "Sniper Rifle" on the character sheet and go "I want that one!" and miss the word "blueprint" that comes immediately after the coveted tool of mass slaughter and then throw a tantrum when they find that they don't actually have the item in question. Totally a hypothetical example, by the way. ;) )

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