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In-universe perspective of the books, and Autonomist bias

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Sat, 2013-10-26 17:48

Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture

In-universe perspective of the books, and Autonomist bias

I've noticed that most of the in-universe perspectives are either from Autonomist sources (Titan University, for example), or Firewall, and most of the Firewall ones are for Autonomist agents (for example, the Planetary Consortium part in Sunward, which made no sense). There's the one on the Jovian Republic from a Jovian sentinel, and another is from a Solaris source, but it's basically meant for irony rather than anything else. So you know what would be cool? Instead of the Firewall sourcebook being written from the perspective of Firewall agents (which, I'm gonna be blunt, would be unsurprising and a little boring), why not have it be from the perspective of Consortium Oversight? Some sort of document that advises Oversight agents on how to deal with Firewall, details the history, structure, different factions, important people, and so on. I honestly believe that this will be a refreshing narrative, because if it goes the way of "grizzled, down-to-earth, witty Firewall sentinels" again, I don't think I'd enjoy it as much. If the Planetary Consortium part of Sunward was written for anarchist agents, and the Mars part was written for people that clearly despise the Consortium, wouldn't a Firewall sourcebook written for Consortium agents make sense? The only thing that I think would kinda blow is if the Oversight agents are depicted as stereotypical "evil corporate spies" rather than "ruthless, cold-blooded agents who genuinely believe what they're doing for transhumanity is the best way to go". Ie sounds a lot like Firewall, no? That really shined in a certain part of Gatecrashing, when a Firewall sentinel interrogated an Oversight agent who was like this.

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"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address

Sat, 2013-10-26 19:48

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture

Hmm. Interesting idea. I

Hmm. Interesting idea. I could see that being very effective if done well. (And, on some level, it reminds me of the Phoenix Stars books in the Lost Fleet setting; having to write up the former antagonists as believable protagonists is always a challenge).

—

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Sat, 2013-10-26 22:08

Leodiensian Leodiensian's picture

I think that's kind of

I think that's kind of inevitable when you have a sci fi setting largely written and made by people with certain philosophical or political viewpoints; the people with the countering view (Jovians and bioconservatives) are largely portrayed as unreasonable and villainous. This kind of gets commented on in the GM section of Rimward where they all but admit they made the Jovians too 'easy' a villain. That said, you're absolutely right that the games' sourcebooks need more viewpoints. A huge part of what makes the setting so interesting and vibrant is how there are tons of political factions, weird subcultures and so on. By throwing more voices into the writing, it would help sell that even more.

Sun, 2013-10-27 03:44

nick012000 nick012000's picture

Great idea. I hope that

Great idea. I hope that Transhuman Studios at the very least considers it, even if it's presented with a foreward written by Firewall to the effect of "This is a document one of our agents inside Oversight has uncovered; the degree of sensitive information it contains on our organisation is disturbing."

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Mon, 2013-10-28 11:15

Yaginor

Sounds like a very bad idea

Sounds like a very bad idea for the same reason the original bias in the book was(and still is bad). It's probably worse in that Firewall is supposed to be a secret and massively distributed organisation. Most insider perspectives are going to be flawed and insufficient, let alone an outsider perspective. Ultimately, for the book to be useful as a gaming resource, it should take the stance of an impartial narrator, and leave the quirky, personal and misleading parts for the side-bars.

Mon, 2013-10-28 17:32

Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture

Yaginor wrote:

Yaginor wrote:
Ultimately, for the book to be useful as a gaming resource, it should take the stance of an impartial narrator, and leave the quirky, personal and misleading parts for the side-bars.

Not a lot of ways I can think of it being an impartial narrator except for maybe an AI. Personally I think that will still go down the way of "AI-generated content with occasional witty banter from Firewall sentinels who mostly hail from anarchist habs/Extropia/Titan", which really wouldn't be that interesting to me honestly.

—

"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address

Mon, 2013-10-28 17:55

bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture

Really, the best impartial

Really, the best impartial narrators wouldn't even be human. I could see a really fun writeup being done from the perspective of the Factors. It'd be insanely difficult to write up in a consistent fashion, but it'd be awesome if it could be pulled off.

—

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

Mon, 2013-10-28 19:36

Smokeskin

Leodiensian wrote:This kind

Leodiensian wrote:
This kind of gets commented on in the GM section of Rimward where they all but admit they made the Jovians too 'easy' a villain.

I really don't get this idea. Look at something as civilized as the US. Wanting to ban stuff like abortion, teaching evolutionary theory, and gene treatment, going to war in Iraq and lying about it, Aby Graib, torture, spying on allies' heads of state, spying on everyone, the present complete failure of the government. If that was fiction, no one would believe it. Or take the taleban. Bans sports, music, even laughing. Throws acid in the faces of girls for going to school. Way too easy a villain for fiction, right?

Mon, 2013-10-28 20:38

LatwPIAT

The GM section of Rimward

The GM section of Rimward literally says that the Jovians are Nazis for you to shoot at. And, well, the US has things we largely consider realistic problems; people being assholes to women, torture, realpolitical espionage, asshole politicians and powerful groups who are making a ruckus because they're losing power. That the NSA was spying on everyone was something that's only been in the news because it got proven; for a reasonable degree of "everybody", everybody already knew they were doing this. The US is, however, not a [i]de facto[/i] death cult led by a hypocritical junta who let terrorists bomb their own citizens out of sheer apathy and malice, while replacing democracy with bad ur-fascist politics from late 1950's sci-fi. And the US doesn't exist just so I can shoot Americans in the face because some Americans bomb abortion clinics.

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Mon, 2013-10-28 21:00

#10

Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture

bibliophile20 wrote:Really,

bibliophile20 wrote:
Really, the best impartial narrators wouldn't even be human. I could see a really fun writeup being done from the perspective of the Factors. It'd be insanely difficult to write up in a consistent fashion, but it'd be awesome if it could be pulled off.

I think that's going a bit too far, even for Eclipse Phase. We might as well have the ETI or TITANs write the book on Firewall instead. I kind of want an ETI sourcebook now, but I doubt it since the setting is going for the whole "mysterious cosmic horror entities" thing with them.

Quote:
I really don't get this idea.

Because in the core rulebook they are depicted as North Korea in space, literally. Eclipse Phase is a fictional setting, where you have complete narrative control as writers. There's no excuse for writing them as completely unsympathetic people, just because imperfections exist in societies and countries today. Although, despite what some people claim, I think they completely improved on making the Jovians more believable and less cartoony in Rimward. I kinda dig the whole Starship Troopers "citizen vs. civilian" deal.

—

"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address

Tue, 2013-10-29 03:51

#11

Smokeskin

Noble Pigeon wrote:

Noble Pigeon wrote:
Because in the core rulebook they are depicted as North Korea in space, literally. Eclipse Phase is a fictional setting, where you have complete narrative control as writers. There's no excuse for writing them as completely unsympathetic people, just because imperfections exist in societies and countries today. Although, despite what some people claim, I think they completely improved on making the Jovians more believable and less cartoony in Rimward. I kinda dig the whole Starship Troopers "citizen vs. civilian" deal.

Well, North Korea is real. Iraq under Saddam Hussein was real. Syria is real. Taleban is real. Nazi Germany was real. Yugoslavia in the 1990s was real. The Rwandan genocide was real. Etc. etc. There are lots of completely unsympathetic people in the world. Why wouldn't there be in EP?

Tue, 2013-10-29 04:07

#12

Smokeskin

LatwPIAT wrote:The GM section

LatwPIAT wrote:
The GM section of Rimward literally says that the Jovians are Nazis for you to shoot at. And, well, the US has things we largely consider realistic problems; people being assholes to women, torture, realpolitical espionage, asshole politicians and powerful groups who are making a ruckus because they're losing power. That the NSA was spying on everyone was something that's only been in the news because it got proven; for a reasonable degree of "everybody", everybody already knew they were doing this. The US is, however, not a [i]de facto[/i] death cult led by a hypocritical junta who let terrorists bomb their own citizens out of sheer apathy and malice, while replacing democracy with bad ur-fascist politics from late 1950's sci-fi. And the US doesn't exist just so I can shoot Americans in the face because some Americans bomb abortion clinics.

The Jovians are obviously more extreme than the US, there's no argument there. But the US is also balanced by a large part of the population being reasonable people - take the most extreme Americans and have them take off and start their own space colony, that's not going to end up like the US today. And there are plenty of more extreme societies than the US in today's world. And many of these are "Nazis for us to shoot at" (and let me again point out that using the likeness to people who actually existed as an argument against realism is totally non-sensical). Most modern democracies have taken part in several military interventions in recent history. And military interventions entails killing bad guys, killing poor people who soldier for the bad guys out of necessity, and killing plenty of civilians through collateral damage. I don't know how it is in other countries, but during the years Denmark (where I live) was in Afghanistan, if a young man wanted to legally and morally acceptably kill people all he needed to do was join the army, pass infantry training and ask to go abroad in a frontline unit.

Tue, 2013-10-29 04:17

#13

Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture

Smokeskin wrote:Noble Pigeon

Smokeskin wrote:
Noble Pigeon wrote:
Because in the core rulebook they are depicted as North Korea in space, literally. Eclipse Phase is a fictional setting, where you have complete narrative control as writers. There's no excuse for writing them as completely unsympathetic people, just because imperfections exist in societies and countries today. Although, despite what some people claim, I think they completely improved on making the Jovians more believable and less cartoony in Rimward. I kinda dig the whole Starship Troopers "citizen vs. civilian" deal.
Well, North Korea is real. Iraq under Saddam Hussein was real. Syria is real. Taleban is real. Nazi Germany was real. Yugoslavia in the 1990s was real. The Rwandan genocide was real. Etc. etc. There are lots of completely unsympathetic people in the world. Why wouldn't there be in EP?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be something like the JR in the setting. I'm saying that they should be portrayed as more sympathetic and human (if not necessarily agreeable with), which is exactly what the writers did in Rimward, at least for me. In addition, the very fact that (in the core rulebook at least) bioconservatives were depicted as backwards, bigoted, irrational individuals while anarchists were better at everything than everyone else really made the Jovians out to be generic badguys in space in comparison. I like my antagonistic factions to not be cardboard cutouts of villains, but have motives and goals just like everyone else, and where said goals can even be sympathetic, even if you don't agree with them yourself. I like playing Jovian/bioconservative characters who are not bigots or narrow minded or willing to use terrorism to achieve their goals. Now I'd like to continue this discussion but I'm really far more curious about the future books and the narrative points of view they're gonna take. I think this discussion merits another thread :>

—

"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address