Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Bots, AI and Aptitudes

11 posts / 0 new

Last post

Thu, 2013-10-10 03:16

thebluespectre thebluespectre's picture

Bots, AI and Aptitudes

So, jamming a bot. First of all, what are the maximum aptitudes you can have while jamming a bot? There are no maximum aptitudes listed anywhere near where bots are mentioned... I realized this after building an Infomorph NPC who would have 25 Somatics while jamming a tiny Creepy. Recreating a Tom and Jerry sketch might be fun, but just slightly out of genre. Also, do bots come with AI already installed? Again, a Creepy is cheaper than the cheapest AI, so I think not, but the flavor text for the Dwarf bot says it has a default AI.

—

"Still and transfixed, the el/ ectric sheep are dreaming of your face..." -Talk Shows on Mute

Thu, 2013-10-10 13:30

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture

For Jamming, rules as written

For Jamming, rules as written end of pg 196 "the shell's aptitude maximums apply and physical actions are limited by the shell's Speed". Now rules as written you're limited by ALL of the shell's aptitudes including mental, but I'd houserule it to physical. To answer the obvious question, yes jamming a shell is unquestionably superior than actually sleeving in many cases. This is why I house-rule a flat -10 penalty to all physical actions while jamming (to explain why everybody and their grandma doesn't do it instead of sleeving). Paragraph 3 pg 343 implies all bots and vehicles have a puppet sock. As to a built-in AI, that is only specifically called out as something vehicles have - so rules as written you're on your own in deciding which bots have an ecto-class computer in them. That being said even the Microlight [Low] has an AI and computer - so I guess its simpler to say all bots of [Low] cost or higher have one, and they jam their own shell through their own puppet sock. I'd just give default AIs all aptitudes at 10, no skills, except Piloting 40 for vehicles.

—

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Thu, 2013-10-10 19:23

Wyvernjack Wyvernjack's picture

Think a decent reason not to

Think a decent reason not to jam everything is because any ecto can easily be turned into a jamming device, or by using a granade, or the jamming bullets, easily giving the attacker a free morph.

Thu, 2013-10-10 19:53

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture

Wyvernjack wrote:Think a

Wyvernjack wrote:
Think a decent reason not to jam everything is because any ecto can easily be turned into a jamming device, or by using a granade, or the jamming bullets, easily giving the attacker a free morph.

You can jam through a hardwired link. Like a vehicles "ghostrider-like" module to that vehicles' own puppet sock, or an ecto routed through an access jack.

—

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Thu, 2013-10-10 20:12

Wyvernjack Wyvernjack's picture

NewtonPulsifer wrote

NewtonPulsifer wrote:
Wyvernjack wrote:
Think a decent reason not to jam everything is because any ecto can easily be turned into a jamming device, or by using a granade, or the jamming bullets, easily giving the attacker a free morph.
You can jam through a hardwired link. Like a vehicles "ghostrider-like" module to that vehicles' own puppet sock, or an ecto routed through an access jack.

But that would mean you're actually still there, defeating the major benefit of jamming, not being there, leaving you vurnerable to the usual threats of cortial stack/cyberbrain removal. An EMP, or Ecto turned into radio jammer (anyone can try doing it) will make anything besides Ghost Module unable to reach the morph.

Thu, 2013-10-10 20:53

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture

You get every single mental

You get every single mental benefit of an infomorph (new eidolon rules) and every single physical benefit of say your Reaper morph shell. Hence why I house ruled handing out the -10 penalty.

—

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Thu, 2013-10-10 21:05

Wyvernjack Wyvernjack's picture

Ah, can kinda see that one.

Ah, can kinda see that one. Didn't think of that since so far, people realized the risk of jamming, making it basically free morphs for prepared enemies. Haven't had anyone silly enough to consider paying for an eidolon, ghostrider module, puppet socket and a morph just to evade resleeving tests.

Thu, 2013-10-10 22:55

thebluespectre thebluespectre's picture

Great, Except...

So as far as I can tell, players can just use their maximum aptitudes while jamming a bot, since they have no default aptitudes. Makes me wonder how capable a Creepy is at handling a stun baton with all those little magnet arms it has.

—

"Still and transfixed, the el/ ectric sheep are dreaming of your face..." -Talk Shows on Mute

Thu, 2013-10-10 22:59

nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture

Wyvernjack wrote:Ah, can

Wyvernjack wrote:
Ah, can kinda see that one. Didn't think of that since so far, people realized the risk of jamming, making it basically free morphs for prepared enemies. Haven't had anyone silly enough to consider paying for an eidolon, ghostrider module, puppet socket and a morph just to evade resleeving tests.

Avoid resleeving tests, get to keep bonuses from a pricy eidolon even when ego-casting and reduced to a cheap morph, get the bonus speed for infomorphs, and the ability to flee morphs/fork at will, all for the cost of a puppet sock (low and free for any pod or synth) and a ghostrider module (low and can be replaced by a trivial cost ecto if you have access jacks or similar connection). With this method, a good eidolon can make any cheap morph nearly equal to a quality morph with a few cheap mods. Before eidolons, this wasn't nearly as good a strategy, but was still viable (especially for those who are terrible at resleeving tests and more-so for short-term stays in a body).

Thu, 2013-10-10 23:55

#10

thezombiekat thezombiekat's picture

NewtonPulsifer wrote:You get

NewtonPulsifer wrote:
You get every single mental benefit of an infomorph (new eidolon rules) and every single physical benefit of say your Reaper morph shell. Hence why I house ruled handing out the -10 penalty.

Interestingly you have removed any reason to use jamming. -10 is the penalty for telioperation, which allows you to use multiple shells at once. (very useful if you have mental speed and access to a large number of cheep bots. As to why people in the setting don’t remain infomorphs and jam their shells. There are several. First cost. You have to pay for both morphs, and pay for upkeep on the shell and runtime for the infomorph. Second psychology. When jamming a morph your not actually that morph in the same way as if you sleaved into it directly. There is a great desire in most people in the EP setting to be a physical entity. Some people get over this and there are habitats where everybody is an infomorph and they jam or teli operate maintenance bots as needed. Third sociology. In many places infomorphs are second class citizens. Or even nonpersons such as in the LLA. A info morph that is always jamming a physical morph is still legally an infomorph, and if it is known he will suffer the social issues of being an info morph while not realy being part of the infomorph social support network. Forth possible reduced sensation. While the RAW gives you no penalties while jamming it is likely that it does not feel the same as being fully sleaved in. being able to take full control of a novacrab without risking alienation suggests that I am not getting the full experience, even if it is close enough to work fully effectively. While this is good enough for a work shift or a combat encounter, you don’t want to live your life like that. Fifth why bother with the body. If you’re happy to take the social and legal issues of being an infomorf why do you need to jam a bot on a day to day basis. There are ample simulspace environments for entertainment and socialisation. Just rent or borrow a bot when you need to do a physical task.

Fri, 2013-10-11 09:34

#11

Wyvernjack Wyvernjack's picture

Not sure if you evade the

Not sure if you evade the tests this way. Core seems to mention you take tests whenever you copy yourself over to another device. Core p272: Infomorphs may copy themselves to other devices, typically erasing themselves from the previous device as they go. Infomorphs that copy without erasing are treated as forks. Characters instantiating as infomorphs must make Continuity and Alienation Tests, just like resleeving. Infomorphs may be resleeved into physical morphs, following normal resleeving rules. The whole affair seems like a lot of effort for minimal benefits, as they will have their aptitude maximums limited by the home device, which is 20 to 30, and then by the shell they are jamming. So even if you get the Wirehead Eidolon and combine it with a morph with Reflex Booster, you won't get past 20-30 REF and you're now like 80,000 out. "Personal computers are considered to have an aptitude maximum of 20; most servers have an aptitude maximum of 30"(transhuman 142) "The shell’s aptitude maximums apply and physical actions are limited by the shell’s Speed." Core p196 Pros: Speed 1 for physical actions, speed +2 for mental actions (since you can't physically act past first phase unless augmented). Bonus aptitudes from Expensive Eidolons. Quickly escaping to another device (if not radar jammed. Same as cyberbrain augment). Cons: Dependent on Ghost-Rider & Puppet Sock. Aptitudes limited by Home Device and Shell maximums. Mental stress(1d10) upon death. Infosec high enough to ensure no data of you stays on the ghost-rider module when copying yourself away. Munchkin-ish stigma at some games unless playing out re-sleeving phobia. Forgot an important thing. Puppet Socket leaves you open to being hijacked by a hacker and forced to act against your will.