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Sun, 2013-09-08 03:12
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
nizkateth wrote:...okay, I'm
nizkateth wrote:
...okay, I'm [i]more[/i] than a little afraid to ask... [i]What's[/i] wrong with environmentalism? In brief... [b]don't[/b] want another argument, just not sure what problem there is with protecting Earth. *braces self*
The problem is that environmentalism tend to hurt and kill humans. Take the battle against global warming. An incredible amount of money has been spent that has done practically no good at all - the opportunity cost is amazing, the money spent could have been spent giving clean water, basic schooling, and microsupplements to end malnutrition to everyone on the planet. The loss of economic growth have kept millions in deep poverty, and deep poverty means very low quality of life and is often fatal. Or take how environmentalism through various political and consumer mechanisms practically ended the use of DDT in Africa, which killed millions. The damage from malaria is MUCH, MUCH higher than any neurological problems from DDT use would ever have been. Or take Greenpeace's battle against the golden rice GMO which could potentially practically end vitamin A deficiency that causes between one half and one million cases of blindness or death per year. Or how us in the western world destroyed almost all of the original biotopes to make room for farm land and urban areas, but when people in developing countries do that to feed themselves environmentalists get all worked up. Caring about the wellbeing of humans is a reasonable and moral stance that will mean you're opposed to many forms of pollution. We don't need environmentalism for that, only humanism. The difference between that stance and environmentalism is that environmentalist don't want to protect humans, they want to protect the Earth, and they hurt and kill people in the process.
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Sun, 2013-09-08 06:50
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
Okay, just checking.
Okay, just checking. * * * It must be [i]strange[/i] to feel happy all the time. I can't even [i]grasp[/i] having consistent emotions like that. Well, [i]maybe[/i] I can. I can have a single feeling last a solid day or two (crying for two days because I made profit, for example), but continuing [b]indefinitely[/b]... that's [i]frightening[/i] to me.
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Reapers: Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball. My watch also has a minute hand, millenium hand, and an eon hand.
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Wed, 2013-09-11 20:07
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
nizkateth wrote:It must be
nizkateth wrote:
It must be [i]strange[/i] to feel happy all the time. I can't even [i]grasp[/i] having consistent emotions like that.
I am constantly amazed by how different our minds, senses and experienced worlds are... and yet most people do not notice. They assume everybody else is like them, deep down like and dislike the same things, and think the world works in the same way. It is so bizarre - the evidence is just a conversation away, yet it is rarely noticed. But on the other hand, grasping just how alien our close ones are is also frightening. As for me, being happy in a way fades into normality. It is only when I either deliberately use it to cheer up people or when it really doesn't fit with the circumstances I become really aware of it. Discussing 911 today with a New Yorker friend (including her asking me about my initial reaction) was tricky. But having my mood change all the time because of what happens around me... it feels so *unstable*. In EP there are likely plenty of very odd mental states and structures people have chosen, or just ended up with. Understanding each other will be even harder than in current real life.
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Extropian
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Thu, 2013-09-12 06:48
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
Yeah...
Arenamontanus wrote:
But having my mood change all the time because of what happens around me... it feels so *unstable*.
It [i]is[/i] unstable, for me. My only consistent trait is inconsistency. Even 'normal' people seem [b]amazingly[/b] stable and predictable to me. I could see them acting as they do, I [i]knew[/i] there was a difference and they [i]weren't[/i] like me. But I couldn't grasp [b]how[/b] they did that, how they felt and thought as they do, so for a long time I concluded there was something wrong with all of [u]them[/u]. Now [i]I[/i] feel like the alien one. Therapy has been helping me to get a better perspective on my mind. But it has also made me very [i]uncomfortably[/i] aware of my shifting thoughts and feelings. I've been able to [i]watch[/i] as my opinions and preferences change, or my mood radically alters when around someone for a short time. I could basically chart it, but I still can't [b]control[/b] it. In some ways, it's worse than just [i]letting[/i] things shift [b]without[/b] thinking about it. That felt more [i]natural[/i]. This level of self-awareness is unsettling. But I [b]know[/b] it's for the best that I keep at it. (Oh man, don't even get me started on the problems I've got into with people by discussing the 911 thing)
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Reapers: Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball. My watch also has a minute hand, millenium hand, and an eon hand.
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Thu, 2013-09-12 14:39
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
nizkateth wrote:Now I feel
nizkateth wrote:
Now [i]I[/i] feel like the alien one.
Don't worry. We are [i]all[/i] aliens. Some just don't know it.
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Extropian
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Mon, 2013-09-16 06:58
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
So, what is it like to (at
So, what is it [i]like[/i] to (at least in general) know who you are going to be each day? What is stability like? Not necessarily the feelings and thoughts [i]specifically[/i], but being able to predict how you will think and feel in the future.
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Reapers: Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball. My watch also has a minute hand, millenium hand, and an eon hand.
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Tue, 2013-09-17 05:03
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
nizkateth wrote:So, what is
nizkateth wrote:
So, what is it [i]like[/i] to (at least in general) know who you are going to be each day? What is stability like? Not necessarily the feelings and thoughts [i]specifically[/i], but being able to predict how you will think and feel in the future.
People are totally overconfident in their predictions of how they will think and feel. Both in the sense that they assume they will be exactly like they are right now (in which case new years resolutions would nearly always work and people would never fall out of love) and in the sense that when they actually change their mind, mood and view they think they always really believed that. People are a great deal less stable than they think, yet amazingly consistent when you average. This is of course my outside view, using statistics, psychology and cognitive bias research to look at the human condition. And I experience it too - but I know confirmation bias when I see it. The inside view, the feeling that you know who you are going to be in the future, is really comforting. Mostly because non-depressed people have a rather inflated view of themselves. Realizing it is inflated is either very traumatic or liberating. Realizing our selves are unstable is even more worrying. I realize that there is a nonzero chance that I might one day hold views that I today loathe and think are stupid - but the wonder of my brain is that it can implement any such software. I just have to make sure it is my decision at any point to choose who I become. I just wish I had better backup systems.
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Extropian
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Wed, 2013-09-18 07:09
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
:(
I envy that feeling of comfort, even [i]if[/i] it's inflated.
Arenamontanus wrote:
Realizing our selves are unstable is even more worrying. I realize that there is a nonzero chance that I might one day hold views that I today loathe and think are stupid - but the wonder of my brain is that it can implement any such software. I just have to make sure it is my decision at any point to choose who I become.
Imagine having a [i]significant[/i] chance, at least once a week if not every couple days, of holding views like that. [b]Without[/b] having made any decision about it.
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Reapers: Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball. My watch also has a minute hand, millenium hand, and an eon hand.
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Tue, 2013-10-08 06:43
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
Yay...
Well, after a couple years of consistent therapy, my doctors has added Generalized Anxiety Disorder to my list. Which, given the nearly 42% chance of that (according to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder#Comorbid_Ax... chart[/url]) and that I've had anxiety bad enough to make me physically ill for over half my life... isn't terribly surprising. Yay.
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Reapers: Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball. My watch also has a minute hand, millenium hand, and an eon hand.
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Wed, 2013-10-09 02:23
nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
If the majority of the
If the majority of the population had BPD, the wishy-washy indecision and inner conflict seen in neural-typical minds would be considered a mental disorder since society would be set up for and used to unstable and absolute viewpoints. BPD is obviously detrimental in our society, but it might be that "normal" is somewhat arbitrary. I have ADD, epilepsy (petit-mal), minor depression, and a borderline case of Asperger's Syndrome. I take a rainbow of medication to function and while I'm very finicky about how I work, I am very bright, especially in math and science. I find it very difficult to analyze my own mind. Determining exactly how I differ from other people is difficult; Even more difficult is trying to categorize what differences can be attributed to my atypical conditions and what are just aspects of me independent of the mental disorders. The head injury that gave me my epilepsy was particularly worrying. It was petit-mal, so my seizures weren't obvious, just breaks in my concentration that made concentrating on school work impossible. I didn't know it was epilepsy at first, just that I couldn't concentrate on my work after my concussion, and not in a way that felt like my ADD meds needed to be upped. Since my intellect was an important aspect of my personal identity, the thought that I might have lost it was terrifying.
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Wed, 2013-10-09 02:48
nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
nizkateth wrote:Please don't
nizkateth wrote:
Please don't fight because of me. o_o For my part, I [i]know[/i] it is a problem and [b]definitely[/b] a disorder. But even my therapist has suggested I [i]try[/i] to find some good in it. So... I'm not bothered, [i]however[/i] people want to refer to it. (niz's semi-humorously-intended expanded rule-set for BPD) The character's lack of sense of self leaves them vulnerable to outside views or internal shifting of ideals. When not in close contact with others to reinforce existing Motivations, one motivation will change every 1d10 days. Usually this is to a related but different perspective (such as +anarchism becoming +open-source, or -hypercapitalism becoming +AGI-rights). When encountering someone with opinions differing from their own, extended contact (at least a few hours without differing opinions offered) requires a WIL roll from the character. Failure results in one of the character's motivations changing to match their new acquaintance's views, regardless of how different it may have been before (+anarchy becoming +hypercapitalism for example). A Severe Failure results in 2 motivations changing. A Critical Failure causes all three of the character's motivations to change, often to more radical expressions than the person they are interacting with (+hypercapitalism may also lead to -AGI-rights and -Earth-reclamation). Despite (or because of) this chameleon-like attempt to alter to new people, the character also fears rejection deeply. Treat any disassociation from a previously allied character as Betrayal by a Trusted friend for gaining SV. As such the character may preemptively cut off association with former friends and allies with now-different outlooks if they cannot quickly change their minds. The character is highly suggestible and will readily do things they wouldn't normally if asked, suffering a -10 to oppose Deception and Persuasion, -30 if those skills are used by the same person after a failed WIL roll to avoid changing motivation (as above). Lastly, the character's emotions are wild and intense. Treat this as Modified Behavior (level 1) boosting any strong emotion felt.
DO NOT TRY TO INFILTRATE A SINGULARITY SEEKER CULT! This seems terrifying for a Firewall agent who is going to be exposed to a number extreme views. I wonder if certain methods of mental manipulation would work differently, with this disorder. Perhaps psychosurgical behavior modification might not "stick" unless the BPD was dealt with. I wonder how BPD would interact with forking. Take two separate trips and try to merge in a day or two and you might have extreme, absolutely contradictory motivations (perhaps for the first time ever) trying to fall into a single state. It might be an easy transition (as BPD motivations change quickly anyway) or it might be a maddening, alien notion to have two contradictory views (which neural typical minds are quite used to). I wonder if your muse reminding you of your previous positions, potentially using recordings of your own passionate monologues on a given subject, could re-persuade/remind you of your past motivations to help make them more stable in your opinions (though choosing which ones to reinforce is difficult when you lack a stable self-image to reference).
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Wed, 2013-10-09 05:38
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
nerdnumber1 wrote:If the
nerdnumber1 wrote:
If the majority of the population had BPD, the wishy-washy indecision and inner conflict seen in neural-typical minds would be considered a mental disorder since society would be set up for and used to unstable and absolute viewpoints. BPD is obviously detrimental in our society, but it might be that "normal" is somewhat arbitrary.
Not exactly. Sure, a society where everybody were *a bit* more BPD might be functional and indeed view neurotypicals as wishy-washy. But *full* BPD impairs your abilities to perform long-term projects or have long-term stable relationships. In the more extreme BPD society the neurotypicals would have a kind of superpower of not breaking off projects and relationships all the time, reaping huge rewards from it. Same thing with the autism spectrum. A bit of systematizing Asperger's is fine, at least if you are doing software and some areas of science. More of it, and you cannot function well. OCD is great for the detail-oriented approach needed for some sciences, but beyond a certain level you will never get anything done. And so on: these conditions are not totally relative to society. Society can help and hinder, but there is a limit to what mental states can maintain a society.
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Extropian
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Wed, 2013-10-09 06:09
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
Actually...
A muse might help quite a bit, to be a reminder. But a lot of the reason for the change is seeking approval and such from other people, so it would likely only do so much. And yeah, do you just go with the newest opinion? Or one you've held for a while? Just because I've ranted about a subject for a long time doesn't mean I won't disagree with me next week.
nerdnumber1 wrote:
DO NOT TRY TO INFILTRATE A SINGULARITY SEEKER CULT!
"I'm in... they have no idea I'm not one of them." "Good work agent, now what are they up to?" "Oh wow... this makes SO MUCH SENSE!" "Agent?" "We can do it! A super-intelligence that is on our side! Like the TITANS, but fighting for transhumanity! Imagine it!" "Agent!" "Hey guys, there's a group you should know about that are trying to stop you!" "AGENT!!!"
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Reapers: Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball. My watch also has a minute hand, millenium hand, and an eon hand.
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Wed, 2013-10-09 18:33
nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
Arenamontanus wrote
Arenamontanus wrote:
nerdnumber1 wrote:
If the majority of the population had BPD, the wishy-washy indecision and inner conflict seen in neural-typical minds would be considered a mental disorder since society would be set up for and used to unstable and absolute viewpoints. BPD is obviously detrimental in our society, but it might be that "normal" is somewhat arbitrary.
Not exactly. Sure, a society where everybody were *a bit* more BPD might be functional and indeed view neurotypicals as wishy-washy. But *full* BPD impairs your abilities to perform long-term projects or have long-term stable relationships. In the more extreme BPD society the neurotypicals would have a kind of superpower of not breaking off projects and relationships all the time, reaping huge rewards from it. Same thing with the autism spectrum. A bit of systematizing Asperger's is fine, at least if you are doing software and some areas of science. More of it, and you cannot function well. OCD is great for the detail-oriented approach needed for some sciences, but beyond a certain level you will never get anything done. And so on: these conditions are not totally relative to society. Society can help and hinder, but there is a limit to what mental states can maintain a society.
I'll concede that neural typical is what it is because a certain set of traits are more useful than others leading them to be more widespread (making a hypothetical society composed of a group characterized in part by difficulty in maintaining set opinions organize into a strong community), but I think that we shouldn't discount the possibility of socially constructed biases. Then again, I often find myself taking strange positions in discussions, acting contrary or pedantic. Drives my teachers nuts sometimes.
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Wed, 2013-10-09 18:43
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
nerdnumber1 wrote:I'll
nerdnumber1 wrote:
I'll concede that neural typical is what it is because a certain set of traits are more useful than others leading them to be more widespread (making a hypothetical society composed of a group characterized in part by difficulty in maintaining set opinions organize into a strong community), but I think that we shouldn't discount the possibility of socially constructed biases. Then again, I often find myself taking strange positions in discussions, acting contrary or pedantic. Drives my teachers nuts sometimes.
Not that I'd think it was impossible. But if humans thought overall more like I do, society would be very different. We can't just imagine modern life but with more intense emotions and less gray areas, and more acceptance of changing ideals... such a world would have evolved very differently from the start. I'd be happy just with our current society having more leeway for some things that would make it much easier to be as I am. More readily available ways to swap things as interests change, without costing a fortune to buy new stuff all the time.
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Reapers: Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball. My watch also has a minute hand, millenium hand, and an eon hand.
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Wed, 2013-10-09 19:08
nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
nizkateth wrote:A muse might
nizkateth wrote:
A muse might help quite a bit, to be a reminder. But a lot of the reason for the change is seeking approval and such from other people, so it would likely only do so much. And yeah, do you just go with the newest opinion? Or one you've held for a while? Just because I've ranted about a subject for a long time doesn't mean I won't disagree with me next week.
Didn't think hard enough on that one, I guess. Maybe your muse could call up someone that agreed with your previous opinion to counter the new (possibly more dangerous) viewpoint? I suppose there is a question of values here: would you prefer to let your opinions develop freely, without a (potentially arbitrary) single moderator influencing you, or would you prefer the stability of a theoretically trustworthy advisor moderating you? There is also the option of psycho surgery to treat the disorder. None of these options seem to mesh well with a strong sense of self-determined identity, which, I suppose is inherently one of the big problems with BPD.
Quote:
nerdnumber1 wrote:
DO NOT TRY TO INFILTRATE A SINGULARITY SEEKER CULT!
"I'm in... they have no idea I'm not one of them." "Good work agent, now what are they up to?" "Oh wow... this makes SO MUCH SENSE!" "Agent?" "We can do it! A super-intelligence that is on our side! Like the TITANS, but fighting for transhumanity! Imagine it!" "Agent!" "Hey guys, there's a group you should know about that are trying to stop you!" "AGENT!!!"
Pretty much what I was imagining. Kind of why you have the psych evaluation to make sure you don't put a sentinel in a situation where she, through no fault of her own, will likely become a traitor. A less scrupulous proxy might take a memory-modified fork of such an agent, sleeve them into a heavily bugged morph, and drop them off at the cult to assimilate without the treason. A better idea, of course, would be to NOT MAKE THE PERSON WITH BPD PRETEND TO BE SOMEONE ELSE, but Firewall doesn't always have good ideas.
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