Why is a case cheaper than a synth,
Thinking purely in character and considering the use of industrial nanofabers.
There are millions of infuges needing bodies, to a manufacturer that could capture as little as 1% of the market in low end morfs the fixed cost of design converted to a per unit cost is going to be negligible wether to slap together a design as cheaply as possible (case) or put a moderate amount of effort into it with a skilled design team (synth) spending even 10 times as much on design will be trivial compared to the costs of raw materials and sale price on 50000 units.
If one corp put together a design (or swiped an open source blueprint from the anarchists, just describe this plan some among them will hand it over to make thousands of people’s lives better) and offered synths for 5500 cred (where a case is 5000 and a synth is usually 10000, assuming bottom of expensive) they would probably get a large majority of the people in the market for a case to upgrade to their product (until other synth manufacturers dropped their price)
The only reason I can figure that this wouldn’t happen is if the per unit cost of manufacturing was different. And in the age of nanofabrication the per unit manufacturing cost is just the cost of the elements it is made from and energy proportional to mass. The dose the synth really use twice as much material as the case (making it twice as heavy) or would it need something a bit less common than iron on mars to build it.
This actually goes to a whole raft of questions relating to nanofabrication and the price tag on unrestricted but expensive goods.
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Why is a case cheaper than a synth,
Thu, 2013-09-05 07:08
#1
Why is a case cheaper than a synth,
Thu, 2013-09-05 10:36
#2
Cases are smaller, and
Cases are smaller, and optimized for cheap, fast construction in a nano-fabber. Synths need more valuable materials (more durable, robust, efficient, etc.), take up more fabber time per unit, etc. Remember, industrial fabbers are a valuable resource and the time you're using them to make one object is time you aren't using them to make another object, so the quicker to make cases are cheaper since they you can make more in the same time-frame (especially since many cases are more optimized for parallel fabrication than synths). All this optimization in production has required cutting a few corners, but it is still a viable product.
Thu, 2013-09-05 11:16
#3
na, the reason is re-purposing
casemorphs and pods were designed and mass produced to be inhabited by AGIs before the fall (less than 10 years ago don't forget!) and the idea of owning a human identity in a bot was seen as repulsive, like being a slave owner or like being owned if you were the unlucky one inhabiting it. after the fall they repurposed the massive surplus of cheap pods and cases to accept infugees. that's why the price is lower.
side note- theres a hab made up of entirely 2 cm microdrones that look and function like full sized synths. THIS is the way free all those infomorphs, their dirt cheap, use almost no resources, and can be built like lightning. honestly... they could free everyone in a month and make micro cities and habs just about anywhere, and heck use simulspace to keep everyone believing its a perfect recreation of earth.
—
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
Thu, 2013-09-05 12:17
#4
Baalbamoth wrote:casemorphs
I would think that it would be difficult to make cyber brains quite that small (there are still some engineering limits), but smaller morphs on a scaled down habit is an excellent idea! Any problems with cyber-brain size could easily be fixed with jamming, some level of cloud computing, or just increasing the scale marginally. There is the annoying problem that biomorphs might not scale as easily, confining residents to synths or giant scurrier morphs, but that really is a small price to pay for giving bodies to everyone.
Thu, 2013-09-05 21:10
#5
another thread on that...
http://eclipsephase.com/how-does-it-feel-be-tiny
p88 sunward
THE COLONY
Allegiance: Lunar-Lagrange Alliance
Primary Languages: Javanese
The Colony is micro-sized, in the literal sense. All
members of the settlement are sleeved in insect-sized
(though not necessarily insectoid) morphs and the
living environment is built to scale. Taking up only
a small side cavern in the larger Karpola habitat, the
Colony exhibits a transhuman lifestyle that still has
all of the same amenities (nanofabrication, the mesh,
resleeving, etc.) while being far less resource intensive.
The Colony is a popular destination for Lunar
tourists who wish to live small for a brief period.
so actually no, theres no problem making insect sized morphs or cyberbrains... straight from the book.
—
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
Thu, 2013-09-05 22:01
#6
Baalbamoth wrote:http:/
I apologize, I was unaware. Excuse me while I fab up a pocket-full of micro-cyberbrains for various nefarious purposes.
Thu, 2013-09-05 22:48
#7
To answer the original
To answer the original question, I think the laws of supply and demand are in play.
There isn't enough production or matter to supply the needs of everyone, let alone the wants. If I recall correctly, one of the books for Eclipse Phase (Could be Transhuman) mentions that everyone is literally working as quickly as possible to produce habitats and morphs. Yet that still isn't enough to supply everyone with Cases, let alone something better like Synths. A great many is working to build the habs they will eventually live in.
----
A basic law of supply of demand is, if the demand is higher than supply, then the price will increase. It will increase until the increased prices reduces the demand to the point where it is equal to the supply. Namely, those willing to pay the higher prices for good will still buy, while everyone else isn't willing to buy.
One factor to consider is a Synth takes longer to build than a Case. Lets assume that they can and are built with the same matter and stuff. The Case priced at [Moderate] would take 3 hours to fabricate, while the Synth priced [High] would take 4 hours to fabricate. So it takes about 33% longer to build a Synth than a Case. If this was the sole factor to consider in the price, then a 33% increase in price (for extra nanofab time) would be reasonable.
On the other hand, that slows down how quickly one can get new morphs, enough so that it might be disallowed or one would be charged extra. In fact, charging extra would be an effective way to encourage growth. With extra money, you can buy more matter, which can be used to build more morphs and nanofabs. Desktop CMs are not cheap, so charging people extra for better morphs would be an effective way to get the money needed for another Desktop CM. Of course, this increases demand for matter and equipment so the prices rise. Because the prices are higher, there is more profit to be made in morph production so more people will enter the industry, thereby increasing supply and maybe reducing prices. I imagine that this feedback loop will grow to the point that when things are over (when everyone has a morph of their choosing), that a lot of people in the industry will have to quit their jobs and move into other industries. There simply wouldn't be the demand to keep prices up enough to keep so many people in the industry.
In contrast, I think there may be some habs that try (or tried) to be noble and try to enforce that everyone will get Cases (not anything better) until everyone has morphs. I think they will suffer economically. In their efforts to remain noble, they simply didn't have money to keep up with the rising prices. Those with money (or good indenture-ships) might have considered buying morphs on such habs, but in a foolish act of nobility by the local authorities, the authorities rejected outside money. Now those habs suffer the consequences of having too much pride, honor and honesty.
----
Another factor for price differences between Cases and Synth is the quality differences. While nothing is listed in terms of matter used, the fact that a Synth is twice as tough as a Case (with better armor too) should say something. A Synth also has better aptitude maximums, better aptitude bonuses, better speed, and the lack of the lemon trait (which might not be possible with a shortage of matter). The Case however does mention that it has a thin frame and stands shorter than the average transhuman (so a Case might be a striped down Synth, striped down to reduce the matter needs where ever possible).
Thu, 2013-09-05 22:58
#8
In regards to the hab with
In regards to the hab with tiny morphs.
I imaging people there are using tiny robots, jamming them to give the egos high levels of control over the robots, and using advanced AR illusions. The intent being is to make it seem like they are running around in normal sized biomorphs.
Any mention of people being literally sleeved in tiny morphs could be in error. Its not the first time the devs made errors. The more recent case is a thread talking about how one of the devs realized that while the books mention that bikes are used a lot, there might be actual problem caused by the low gravity in a great many habs.
The bicycle thread:
http://eclipsephase.com/bicycles-low-gravity
Thu, 2013-09-05 23:16
#9
DivineWrath wrote:In regards
It does say "sleeved" specifically, but there could be explanations for that.
Fri, 2013-09-06 04:10
#10
The colony is actually a
The colony is actually a problem with the setting. Allegedly they can have insect sized morphs but a swarmoids with less than about 1250 insects takes penalties due to insufficient processing power.
The only way I could see it working is if the cyber brains are actually outside of the bodies. In which case give me a jammer.
Fri, 2013-09-06 05:03
#11
I think DivineWrath is making
I think DivineWrath is making a good case (for his opinion).
Ok that was poor I know but I couldn't resist!
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Fri, 2013-09-06 07:52
#12
well,
you gotta remember the rules for processing power of microdrones came out after the blurb about the colony was written, and if they can make a blackbird morph with a brain the size of a pea, I dont see a reason why it would be such a problem.
—
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
Fri, 2013-09-06 08:20
#13
Baalbamoth wrote:you gotta
Why would the blackbird have a brain the size of a pea. It has the small size trait and is described as resembling a neo-corvid. That makes it the size of a human child, presumably with a brain size comparable to that of a child (same as the neo-corvid)
It doesn’t really matter wether sunwards colony of insect sized bots of transhumans detailed rules for swamoids came first. They are contradictory. Also if a cyber brain can be built that small then there are a whole host of things built far bigger than they should be.
Fri, 2013-09-06 09:36
#14
Maybe they have an
Maybe they have an alternative, "Australian" idea of what "insect-sized" is supposed to mean?
Sat, 2013-09-07 07:37
#15
were totally off subject but...
1) a neo-corvid brain isnt that much bigger than a pidgeon's http://users.ox.ac.uk/~kgroup/tools/neurobiology.shtml
2) a neo corvid brain isnt anywhere near as large as even an infant child's who's head is about 1/3 the size and weight of the body, there's no presumably about it.
3) theres nothing contradictory, the devs were specifically talking about processing power of distributed intellegence in swarms, that has nothing to do with non-distributed intellegence in advanced microsized morph brains (that seem to only exist in the colony.)
4) I think you really need to go out and get small... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4GRKNw19Jo
—
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
Sat, 2013-09-07 12:38
#16
The neo-corvid is the
The neo-corvid is the uplifted raven, like all neo-avians they had their brains greatly enlarged, and to a lesser extent their bodies. Panopticon (p111) describes their size as equivalent to a five year old child, I am extrapolating from that when I say the blackbird has the brain volume of a child, it certainly has the body volume of one.
As to the colony/swarm morf. If a cyber brain can be built into an insect sized morf why would a swarm morf bother with distributed processing and the myriad problems it creates?
Sun, 2013-09-08 08:49
#17
thezombiekat wrote:
Redundancy?
Mon, 2013-09-09 00:04
#18
expense
...
—
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
Tue, 2013-09-10 16:43
#19
re: Why is a case cheaper than a synth
I think others have presented some valid reason, but for me the main reason is Eclipse Phase is not an ideal post-scarcity setting. Nanotechnology cannot transmute elements, and energy actually has to be produced from somwhere other than thin air, so raw materials and energy are still cost-adding factors.
Synth morphs are bigger, denser and probably use more refined base elements and more exotic elements in their construction. They take more time, and they also require more energy.
I think it could be interesting to figure out the scarcity of elements in different parts of the Solar system and adjust some of the prices based on that. E.g. the way scarcity of metals is said to affect Titanian industry.
Tue, 2013-09-10 23:18
#20
The scarcity of mettles in
The scarcity of mettles in the outer system has a larger impact on material choice than price of an object.
On Mars the typical synth is made mostly of iron, because they have lots of it.
In the outer system ther have little iron but they have plenty of carbonaceous rock and ice. So carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, that and a nanofaber is high grade plastic, a plastic/bucytube composite perhaps, very strong and light you only need a little mettle for the electronics. While there will be a price deference it will be small and the price system in EP is very coarse so not worth worrying about.
Tue, 2013-09-17 00:38
#21
According to the game text
According to the game text case morphs are not nanofabricated, they are mass produced.
—
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
Tue, 2013-09-17 14:26
#22
NewtonPulsifer wrote
I believe that some mass produced goods are still nano-fabricated to a certain extent, but fabricated en-mass in large industrial fabbers using optimized blueprints to take advantage of the scale. There are a few places with more conventional factories, but the versitility of nano-fabrication makes it attractive even for large jobs.