davethebrave wrote:

Thinking differently about cognitive processes doesn't necessarily mean thinking [i]wrongly[/i] about them. The "standard" or "normal" or "baseline" (or other idiotic ways of referring to human cognition across broad populations) human cognition is littered with cognitive biases, and this is a great example of a "disorder" that actually more closely illuminates something that most people don't consider.

What a bunch of crap. She clearly has a disorder that poses big and real problems in her life, something that normal people don't struggle with.

Smokeskin wrote:

davethebrave wrote:

Thinking differently about cognitive processes doesn't necessarily mean thinking [i]wrongly[/i] about them. The "standard" or "normal" or "baseline" (or other idiotic ways of referring to human cognition across broad populations) human cognition is littered with cognitive biases, and this is a great example of a "disorder" that actually more closely illuminates something that most people don't consider.

What a bunch of crap. She clearly has a disorder that poses big and real problems in her life, something that normal people don't struggle with.

When I took Psychology 101 this was actually one of the useful take home messages: the only definition of a mental disorder that really works is to look at whether it causes problems in a person's life. Yes, that will be somewhat relative to culture, society and lifestyle, but in the end it connects to something that matters to the person. Of course, what keeps us neuroethicists in business is the tricky issues where values, persons and decisionmaking are in question - but that is a tiny minority of mental conditions. Most just mess up your life in boring ways. That said, plenty of disorders in DSM V and everyday use are just medicalized names for everyday traits or human quirks. Since even the individual existence of many of the named disorders are in serious doubt (I don't think anybody believes schizophrenia is a single "thing", but we do not how to separate the component "things", whatever they are; personality disorders blend into each other) one should not take them too seriously. The big issue is after all what we can do about them. Even normal states can be in need of curing.

Smokeskin wrote:

davethebrave wrote:

Thinking differently about cognitive processes doesn't necessarily mean thinking [i]wrongly[/i] about them. The "standard" or "normal" or "baseline" (or other idiotic ways of referring to human cognition across broad populations) human cognition is littered with cognitive biases, and this is a great example of a "disorder" that actually more closely illuminates something that most people don't consider.

What a bunch of crap. She clearly has a disorder that poses big and real problems in her life, something that normal people don't struggle with.

It's not that clear to me. I've known many people who find it offensive that something that is part of their identity and/or something which with they live gets tarred with a negativity brush, especially when part of their coping is related to finding positivity within that identity/struggle. Because of that, I don't always assume off the bat that people enjoy that distancing, categorizing and othering quality of labelling something a "disorder", who don't want people feeling sorry for them but instead to empathize with them, and part of that means empathizing with how they view themselves and a piece of their identity (even if you don't agree with it) and I try to err on the side of respect as a result. If someone else finds something else respectful, I apologize and customize. Didn't appreciate you approaching dialogue with me with the level of respect you did, though, with your dismissive, needlessly aggro discourse control. If I've offended someone by projecting positivity into their headspace when they prefer to view it negatively, [b]I'll hear it from them personally, thanks[/b]. Don't really care if you have a judgement call about someone else's lived reality via the internet, oh insightful one.

Hey yeah, as I said, some people take a different approach to their own p.o.v. on their particular flavour of neurological states. And also as I said, I modify to suit, and don't mind referring to this in ways compatible with how you think about it! Sorry if I've offended with my respect defaults, I can ratchet them elsewise!

davethebrave wrote:

Smokeskin wrote:

davethebrave wrote:

Thinking differently about cognitive processes doesn't necessarily mean thinking [i]wrongly[/i] about them. The "standard" or "normal" or "baseline" (or other idiotic ways of referring to human cognition across broad populations) human cognition is littered with cognitive biases, and this is a great example of a "disorder" that actually more closely illuminates something that most people don't consider.

What a bunch of crap. She clearly has a disorder that poses big and real problems in her life, something that normal people don't struggle with.

It's not that clear to me. I've known many people who find it offensive that something that is part of their identity and/or something which with they live gets tarred with a negativity brush, especially when part of their coping is related to finding positivity within that identity/struggle. Because of that, I don't always assume off the bat that people enjoy that distancing, categorizing and othering quality of labelling something a "disorder", who don't want people feeling sorry for them but instead to empathize with them, and part of that means empathizing with how they view themselves and a piece of their identity (even if you don't agree with it) and I try to err on the side of respect as a result. If someone else finds something else respectful, I apologize and customize. Didn't appreciate you approaching dialogue with me with the level of respect you did, though, with your dismissive, needlessly aggro discourse control. If I've offended someone by projecting positivity into their headspace when they prefer to view it negatively, [b]I'll hear it from them personally, thanks[/b]. Don't really care if you have a judgement call about someone else's lived reality via the internet, oh insightful one.

I didn't pass a judgment call - I objected to you putting a positive spin on a mental disorder. Someone came on, presented what they clearly themselves felt was a problem and caused much trouble and pain in her life, and you argued that it was just some idiotic social construct that defined "normality" too narrowly. CodeBreaker put it quite well, so I won't bring up that side of the issue. But there's another issue that you completely forget: a big problem with many disorders are that they are egosyntonic - those who suffer from them think the thoughts and behaviors that arise from the disorder are agreeable. This means they resist change, they don't seek help and they resist attempts from friends and family to help them, and the last thing they need is exposure to some meme about "normality is idiotic" and "disorders are superpowers". What if this was an anorectic girl? Would you respond the same way? "hey, how much you're supposed to eat is just a social norm, and besides thigh gaps are totally in and anorexia nervosia makes it so easy to get that. You go girl!" Morbid jealousy, where someone tears their family apart in paranoia and control - is that just a personal decision how many degrees of freedom you'll allow your wife? Maybe one day you'll experience someone you care about suffer from an egosyntonic disorder. It is a heartbreaking and frustrating experience to see them hurt themselves and the people around them while they resist any attempts at helping them or changing their behavior. I restrained myself and merely called your opinion crap, but that's a euphemism. Your ideas on disorders are not merely offensive, they empower destructive behavior that actually hurt people. I'm not going to approach that with any level of respect. With that being said, you probably didn't have any malicious intent. Maybe you know someone with Asperger's who's always going on about how neurotypicals are prejudiced and that's the angle you're coming from. It's just horrible to apply such ideas about disorders in general, and I hope you'll stop doing that.

Smokeskin wrote:

davethebrave wrote:

It's not that clear to me. I've known many people who find it offensive that something that is part of their identity and/or something which with they live gets tarred with a negativity brush, especially when part of their coping is related to finding positivity within that identity/struggle. Because of that, I don't always assume off the bat that people enjoy that distancing, categorizing and othering quality of labelling something a "disorder", who don't want people feeling sorry for them but instead to empathize with them, and part of that means empathizing with how they view themselves and a piece of their identity (even if you don't agree with it) and I try to err on the side of respect as a result. If someone else finds something else respectful, I apologize and customize. Didn't appreciate you approaching dialogue with me with the level of respect you did, though, with your dismissive, needlessly aggro discourse control. If I've offended someone by projecting positivity into their headspace when they prefer to view it negatively, [b]I'll hear it from them personally, thanks[/b]. Don't really care if you have a judgement call about someone else's lived reality via the internet, oh insightful one.

I didn't pass a judgment call - I objected to you putting a positive spin on a mental disorder. Someone came on, presented what they clearly themselves felt was a problem and caused much trouble and pain in her life, and you argued that it was just some idiotic social construct that defined "normality" too narrowly. CodeBreaker put it quite well, so I won't bring up that side of the issue. But there's another issue that you completely forget: a big problem with many disorders are that they are egosyntonic - those who suffer from them think the thoughts and behaviors that arise from the disorder are agreeable. This means they resist change, they don't seek help and they resist attempts from friends and family to help them, and the last thing they need is exposure to some meme about "normality is idiotic" and "disorders are superpowers". What if this was an anorectic girl? Would you respond the same way? "hey, how much you're supposed to eat is just a social norm, and besides thigh gaps are totally in and anorexia nervosia makes it so easy to get that. You go girl!" Morbid jealousy, where someone tears their family apart in paranoia and control - is that just a personal decision how many degrees of freedom you'll allow your wife? Maybe one day you'll experience someone you care about suffer from an egosyntonic disorder. It is a heartbreaking and frustrating experience to see them hurt themselves and the people around them while they resist any attempts at helping them or changing their behavior. I restrained myself and merely called your opinion crap, but that's a euphemism. Your ideas on disorders are not merely offensive, they empower destructive behavior that actually hurt people. I'm not going to approach that with any level of respect. With that being said, you probably didn't have any malicious intent. Maybe you know someone with Asperger's who's always going on about how neurotypicals are prejudiced and that's the angle you're coming from. It's just horrible to apply such ideas about disorders in general, and I hope you'll stop doing that.

Actually, I've met mad pride activists and others who identify closer with a positive mindset a la mad pride than with the stance held by CodeBreaker who come from a range of "disorders" from severe OCD to ADHD to borderline (not as severe as what nizkateth is describing in either person I know with borderline) to Tourette syndrome in varying degrees of severity to schizophrenia so severe they're on disability because they can't work and need a personal support worker to medicated psychosis from brain damage, and my mom works with kids with disabilities and disorders in the public school system. Of those people, there are those who definitely gain more from seeing what they have as something to struggle against, and see their victories in opposition to the disorder as something that trumps someone speaking positively about them, which is why I totally get and respect other stances on this. That said, because a strong majority of these individuals who I know personally or have met in radical circles, across disorders, identify with adapted versions of the ideas that emerged out of those on the autism spectrum identifying themselves as people who, while not neurotypical, deserved respect on a human level, my default respect is that level of respect. I have modified for people with similar (and more extreme) stances to what CodeBreaker has argued in part because my default is ratcheted towards what many therapists argue to assist with the most effective mindset to tackle problems...which is not always a positive one for everyone! So if someone else's mindset is best helped by me backing off the positive language, or engaging in a dialogue about the struggle they have from their point of view about that struggle, I am 100% for it. So no, I didn't have any malicious intent. You, once again, dismissively judged through the internet incorrectly with your insight about how I know "someone with Asperger's who's always going on about how neurotypicals are prejudiced", which is itself a very prejudiced and dismissive way to approach the ideas behind mad pride, which sounds a lot like actual malicious intent to me. Obviously it varies case to case, Smokeskin, as my initial reply to you made clear, as my response to CodeBreaker made clear and as you were unable to see so badly that you painted me with the brush of a pro-ana moron as if that could be confused with mad pride, which focuses on the health, mental and otherwise, of the mad person. And, as I've said here, there are definitely individuals I know who [b]do not[/b] subscribe to positive views about their disorder, even in part, and I customize my interactions with them to suit...just as I would in each of the examples you so gave with such misguided accusatory rhetoric as the plaintive and urgent "Would you respond the same way?" and the somber head-shake of "Maybe one day you'll experience..." So again, stop with the aggro discourse control b.s. It wasn't cute or intelligent or just the first time, and the fact that you keeping doing it just adds arrogant and unthinking to aggro and control-seeking.

nizkateth wrote:

(niz's semi-humorously-intended expanded rule-set for BPD)

That was great! I love that mechanic. (Wish I could contribute something like that, but I am pretty neurotypical... that is, nobody has diagnosed me yet)

davethebrave wrote:

Smokeskin wrote:

davethebrave wrote:

It's not that clear to me. I've known many people who find it offensive that something that is part of their identity and/or something which with they live gets tarred with a negativity brush, especially when part of their coping is related to finding positivity within that identity/struggle. Because of that, I don't always assume off the bat that people enjoy that distancing, categorizing and othering quality of labelling something a "disorder", who don't want people feeling sorry for them but instead to empathize with them, and part of that means empathizing with how they view themselves and a piece of their identity (even if you don't agree with it) and I try to err on the side of respect as a result. If someone else finds something else respectful, I apologize and customize. Didn't appreciate you approaching dialogue with me with the level of respect you did, though, with your dismissive, needlessly aggro discourse control. If I've offended someone by projecting positivity into their headspace when they prefer to view it negatively, [b]I'll hear it from them personally, thanks[/b]. Don't really care if you have a judgement call about someone else's lived reality via the internet, oh insightful one.

I didn't pass a judgment call - I objected to you putting a positive spin on a mental disorder. Someone came on, presented what they clearly themselves felt was a problem and caused much trouble and pain in her life, and you argued that it was just some idiotic social construct that defined "normality" too narrowly. CodeBreaker put it quite well, so I won't bring up that side of the issue. But there's another issue that you completely forget: a big problem with many disorders are that they are egosyntonic - those who suffer from them think the thoughts and behaviors that arise from the disorder are agreeable. This means they resist change, they don't seek help and they resist attempts from friends and family to help them, and the last thing they need is exposure to some meme about "normality is idiotic" and "disorders are superpowers". What if this was an anorectic girl? Would you respond the same way? "hey, how much you're supposed to eat is just a social norm, and besides thigh gaps are totally in and anorexia nervosia makes it so easy to get that. You go girl!" Morbid jealousy, where someone tears their family apart in paranoia and control - is that just a personal decision how many degrees of freedom you'll allow your wife? Maybe one day you'll experience someone you care about suffer from an egosyntonic disorder. It is a heartbreaking and frustrating experience to see them hurt themselves and the people around them while they resist any attempts at helping them or changing their behavior. I restrained myself and merely called your opinion crap, but that's a euphemism. Your ideas on disorders are not merely offensive, they empower destructive behavior that actually hurt people. I'm not going to approach that with any level of respect. With that being said, you probably didn't have any malicious intent. Maybe you know someone with Asperger's who's always going on about how neurotypicals are prejudiced and that's the angle you're coming from. It's just horrible to apply such ideas about disorders in general, and I hope you'll stop doing that.

Actually, I've met mad pride activists and others who identify closer with a positive mindset a la mad pride than with the stance held by CodeBreaker who come from a range of "disorders" from severe OCD to ADHD to borderline (not as severe as what nizkateth is describing in either person I know with borderline) to Tourette syndrome in varying degrees of severity to schizophrenia so severe they're on disability because they can't work and need a personal support worker to medicated psychosis from brain damage, and my mom works with kids with disabilities and disorders in the public school system. Of those people, there are those who definitely gain more from seeing what they have as something to struggle against, and see their victories in opposition to the disorder as something that trumps someone speaking positively about them, which is why I totally get and respect other stances on this. That said, because a strong majority of these individuals who I know personally or have met in radical circles, across disorders, identify with adapted versions of the ideas that emerged out of those on the autism spectrum identifying themselves as people who, while not neurotypical, deserved respect on a human level, my default respect is that level of respect. I have modified for people with similar (and more extreme) stances to what CodeBreaker has argued in part because my default is ratcheted towards what many therapists argue to assist with the most effective mindset to tackle problems...which is not always a positive one for everyone! So if someone else's mindset is best helped by me backing off the positive language, or engaging in a dialogue about the struggle they have from their point of view about that struggle, I am 100% for it. So no, I didn't have any malicious intent. You, once again, dismissively judged through the internet incorrectly with your insight about how I know "someone with Asperger's who's always going on about how neurotypicals are prejudiced", which is itself a very prejudiced and dismissive way to approach the ideas behind mad pride, which sounds a lot like actual malicious intent to me. Obviously it varies case to case, Smokeskin, as my initial reply to you made clear, as my response to CodeBreaker made clear and as you were unable to see so badly that you painted me with the brush of a pro-ana moron as if that could be confused with mad pride, which focuses on the health, mental and otherwise, of the mad person. And, as I've said here, there are definitely individuals I know who [b]do not[/b] subscribe to positive views about their disorder, even in part, and I customize my interactions with them to suit...just as I would in each of the examples you so gave with such misguided accusatory rhetoric as the plaintive and urgent "Would you respond the same way?" and the somber head-shake of "Maybe one day you'll experience..." So again, stop with the aggro discourse control b.s. It wasn't cute or intelligent or just the first time, and the fact that you keeping doing it just adds arrogant and unthinking to aggro and control-seeking.

Swoosh! It went right over your head. But I can see that I nailed it. You take the ideas of some highly functioning people with Asperger's and try to apply it to severe disorders. That's like saying "this herbal tea really makes me feel better when I have the flu, you should try it instead of chemo for your cancer". Let us take the cases I presented - the anorectic girl and the morbidly jealous husband. How do you think mad pride applies to them? Do you think schizophrenics should be allowed to commit suicide if they feel like it? Would you let mad pride apply and allow a schizophrenic friend to commit suicide? Should depressed people just be left alone to wallow in their misery as they want to, because of mad pride? Or should friends try to get them up and going again? If you want a discussion about some people who might be wrongly diagnosed with a disorder (where I very much agree with Arenamontanus that you have to look at how it affects their life quality), I'll gladly have that - and I suspect it will be short because I think we more or less agree. We all have traits that might resemble disorders that of course shouldn't be treated, and there are borderline cases that should be free to choose for themselves. But if you want to take mad pride ideas and apply it to disorders in general, that's a different story. And in that case I'd like to hear your take on some real disorders that are detrimental to people's lives and how mad pride applies there. More argument, less ad hominems please.

Yeah, nizkateth's got it. Smokeskin is arguing against a stance I don't have (that one should apply mad pride stances to disorders in general and specifically to anorexia, when I repeatedly stated it's case by case and balked at the idea of pro-ana reinforcement, which either means Smokeskin wasn't reading my replies before responding or has difficulty obtaining simple meaning from written statements) and intentions I don't utilize as if they're my positions. Every time nizkateth manages to get exactly what mad pride is about, and what I'm talking about, while Smokeskin flounders in his "harm reduction" misunderstanding over and over again. So, keep railing against strawmen there Smokeskin, I'll light 'em on fire with you since I am just as much in disagreement with the position you ascribe to me as you are. As I've repeatedly said, I customize it on a case by case, and I know many people who see positivity in otherwise negative disorders in large part because it [b]helps them[/b]. I admit to not knowing anyone with anorexia with whom this would work. Not precluding a possibility that I haven't thought about, but I always check with friends and family of a person about what is helpful for them before addressing with them, and ask them what they think is efficacious for them if it's appropriate to do so. Haven't had a situation like that with anorexia because all major encounters with it in my life were before being introduced to mad pride ideas. That said, I knew people harmed by pro-ana thoughtspaces while they were anorexic, and I don't endorse stances like pro-ana because they lack the mad pride focus on mental and physical health as top priority (and indeed as the primary motivator for obtaining that respect and orienting with positivity, unlike with pro-ana which is more like a feedback loop than an effort to obtain respect, and certainly is more motivated by anorexic thinking than health-oriented thinking like mad pride). To use your example of depression and apply it to my own severe clinical depression that was diagnosed officially early this year, but that I'd had for at least a year prior to the diagnosis (depending on where you want to demarcate the "severe" aspect, if you're just talking depression easily years before diagnosis), if I see the ways in which my depression makes me more introspective and self-critical, both things I've always cherished even before this depression seized hold of me, it helps me feel a little more positive about my short-term prospects suffering with this depression, which in turn helps my long-term prospects because I despair about the long-term when I'm too focused on how hopeless it seems to achieve far-off goals. Before I know it, I've made a lot of personal progress from depressive introspection that actually gets me noticeably closer to achieving long-term goals (when I am able to recognize these things and believe them, which is more and more frequently the more confident and positive that I feel, however artificial and illusory those elements of confidence and positivity may be). And yeah, when I encounter arguments like yours, through no fault of yours and through every fault of this disorder, the efficacy of considering elements of my depression positive does wane substantially. But it's because of that that I value the network of people from all different walks of life and all different mental disorders who think as I do about their disorders, and why I value mad pride. There has been a noticeable difference in the efficacy of dealing with this depression since I started taking a therapist's advice that was already in line with what mad friends of mine had already alerted me to. So, to recap: your patronizing, dismissive, arrogant discourse control on this matter, especially now that it has verged directly into my territory of depression, is not only not helpful, but accusatory of both mad pride and myself with a pretty clear lack of understanding of either one. Don't appreciate it, or your accusations that your arguments are going over my head when in fact the entire point of mad pride seems to have gone over yours. You're not a psych student, much less a therapist or psychologist. Don't know if you suffer with anything outside the neurotypical, but even if you've got a diagnosis for depression, the way you deal with your diagnosis is not somehow universalizable to everyone else with your diagnosis. More importantly than that [b]where you don't have a diagnosis you have no grounds to universalize your ego's desire to be right over the efficacy of their way of thinking about their disorder[/b]. The same applies if you had a diagnosis, but at least then you could argue for people to shut down discussion that opposes how you think about it out of respect for how it affects your mental state. Personally? I wouldn't have minded your stance if you'd expressed it as an alternative, and in fact have already said that in previous posts (that differing stances deserve equal respect, which is another aspect of mad pride), but you continue to disrespect and disparage what you perceive as my stance as if you had some kind of special knowledge or experience that could apply to literally every person. You accuse me of generalizing in a harmful way about all disorders (something I never did once in this thread), then proceed to generalize in a harmful way about depression. And all through your fumbling, ill-considered hypocrisy you manage to be condescending and self-righteous. Deflate the ego, it's expanding on areas of your consciousness that might normally be used for critical thinking, logic or empathy.

I find it interesting... and somewhat disturbing... that this is the third time in as many threads, that I've seen someone indicate they would rather not communicate at all, than continue to expose themselves to hostile thread discussions. Let's think about that for a moment before we continue down this rabbit-hole.

Fair enough, as far as I'm concerned it's mutual misunderstanding. I was offended at tone and let my own tone reflect the impact of that offence in an unhelpful way, pegging me a hypocrite too. Backin' out of this one with an all's well that ends in quantum superposition with all wellness possibilities.

I wonder if one could not re-use some of this debate for the arguments with or about exhumans and singularity seekers in EP.

nizkateth wrote:

As I've said before, I've [i]yet[/i] to see an RPG system that [b]really[/b] encapsulates just how [i]difficult[/i] many mental health problems can be. And to some degree I think that's because the underlying desire is to add a challenge/consequence that inhibits the [i]character[/i] without inhibiting [i]gameplay[/i]. Which makes sense from a game design perspective.

And realistic mental health problems are hard to roleplay - or seriously scary when roleplayed right. I am often returning to the awesome and horrifying experience several years back when one player (deliberately and with GM approval, but unbeknownst to the other players) had his character self-destruct in a far too plausible way, given the player's mental problems. We all agreed that it was a great experience we would prefer not to have again.

nizkateth wrote:

I can see that as well. RP-difficulties, game-mechanic-difficulties, potential-major-game-disruption... All that together, it [i]makes sense[/i] to me why few if any games would go as [b]far[/b] as real mental health can go. I can't [b]imagine[/b] how hard it is to deal with me as I am, [i]never-mind[/i] with the time-acceleration that is part and parcel of RPGs (cover hours or days in mere minutes of description).

GM: "So what do you do during the trip to Mimas?" Player: "Let's see, I have two days to freak out..." GM: "OK, at the end of the trip, everybody else has agreed to never ever mention the Banana Incident. And that next time they will egocast." Hmm... this actually sounds a bit like my players. Two of them managed to turn an entirely ordinary shuttle trip into Murder on the Orient Express, without any actual victim. They also managed to frame themselves as Fall Criminals. Now, given that either of them definitely should be diagnosed with something (their respective conditions are unusual, to say the least - bioconservative uplift self-loathing overlapping with ADHD, and technologically enforced dissociative personality disorder) this might not be unexpected. But that mess was still largely a plan - a crazy plan, but not in a mental disorder sense.

Quote:

My inclusion of changing motivations, for example.

I am somewhat on the different end: *extremely* stable positive mood, bordering on hyperthymia. Usually great, except when trying not to smile or say "it could be worse" at funerals. I'm just lucky my brain chemistry is unusual in a way that fits very well with society and my lifestyle.

Arenamontanus wrote:

I am somewhat on the different end: *extremely* stable positive mood, bordering on hyperthymia. Usually great, except when trying not to smile or say "it could be worse" at funerals. I'm just lucky my brain chemistry is unusual in a way that fits very well with society and my lifestyle.

I have that too. I learned not to smile much though, I had a friend with low self esteem once and he was always getting freaked out by it and asking me "what are you smiling at?", like I was laughing at him. Do you also get accused of being emotionally cold and such?

Lorsa wrote:

And the problem Smokeskin, is that people with borderline personality don't work the same as everyone else. Things that a normal person might get mildly annoyed about and would say "it upset me when you did this" could ruin a relationship with someone with borderline and make them believe I am a horrible villain or something. What I want to figure out if there's something I can do on my end, like a "quick fix" or if it's really all on their end.

Sure, I get that. But it still amounts to the same principle - it is the interests and feelings that matter, even if they "overreact" compared to most people. If there is a quick fix, I'd think it is in reconnecting through the same mechanisms, which also seem to be what Nizkaeth has experienced (and unfortunately that the perceived betrayal is not always forgotten and fuels the next conflict to even greater heights).

Lorsa wrote:

As for myself, I've found that it is quite possible to reason about feelings, why they occured, how the other person saw or experienced the event and reach an understanding that effectively removes the bad emotions.

Having a good theory of mind, being open to reinterpretation and reserving judgment is a good thing, and I'm not saying everyone is just at the mercy of impulsive emotions, at all. Also, and this is just a guess - is understanding people and being tolerant something that makes you tick? Do you have some of that "social worker mentality"? You can't really be mad at juvenile delinquents because they had a tough childhood? Do you forgive wrongdoing towards you when you understand why they did it?

davethebrave wrote:

Smokeskin, I think you continue to misapprehend me in ways less than conducive to me explaining anything to you (in part because it may be how I'm explaining it, I'm not blaming you there). While I appreciate the more cautious, civil way of putting things in this post compared to the last few, you're still not getting my initial stance, even after a lot of explanation. So I'm sticking with my last point on this and remaining bowed out of it.

I still think your initial stance is wrong. It strikes me as a difference of opinion rather than a communication problem. I have no problem talking in a civil matter about matters on which we agree, or matters where we disagree but I don't find your opinion offensive. I don't think you're a dick I must swear at at every opportunity just because we disagree on some issues ;) That would make my life very difficult since I find many common memes offensive, like environmentalism, even moderate religion, socialistic policies, not being an organ donor, etc.

Smokeskin wrote:

Also, and this is just a guess - is understanding people and being tolerant something that makes you tick? Do you have some of that "social worker mentality"? You can't really be mad at juvenile delinquents because they had a tough childhood? Do you forgive wrongdoing towards you when you understand why they did it?

To answer your questions in turn: Yes, unsure, no and depends. Being tolerant is something everyone should be, and understanding people is very intriguing. I have no idea what a social worker mentality is so I can't really answer for that. While it is unfortunate that some people grow up without their parents teaching them what is right and wrong, everyone is responsible for there own actions and there's no excuse for delinquent behavior. I forgive wrongdoing towards me if I understand why and it is a valid reason. I often do things that hurt others without it being my intention, and if I accept that I must accept that it can be the same for others. Sometimes though, people do wrong towards me without any regard at all to my (or others') feelings and that I see no reason to forgive.

Arenamontanus wrote:

Smokeskin wrote:

Arenamontanus wrote:

I am somewhat on the different end: *extremely* stable positive mood, bordering on hyperthymia. Usually great, except when trying not to smile or say "it could be worse" at funerals. I'm just lucky my brain chemistry is unusual in a way that fits very well with society and my lifestyle.

I have that too. I learned not to smile much though, I had a friend with low self esteem once and he was always getting freaked out by it and asking me "what are you smiling at?", like I was laughing at him. Do you also get accused of being emotionally cold and such?

Not to my face :-) But I guess one aspect is that you are not smiling overtly: people do pick up on the discrepancy in other cues and the lack of smile, and misattribute it to emotional coldness. It is a catch-22, smiling too much is also sending tricky signals. I actually get used as a standard example around the philosophy department these days: "Would it be a good thing if everybody were as happy as Anders?" We have had some interesting discussions about whether the ceiling effect of my mood actually detracts from living a truly good life: is hedonic tone the end-all criterion, or would I be better off with a bit more dynamical range of my moods?

I do smile plenty still, just not so much at random times. It's not the "emotionally dead" kind of coldness I've been accused of, more the "would you even care if I died? If you aren't devastated by the loss you can't possible have loved me" kind of coldness. I'm sure I generally recover much quicker than average from loss, but that doesn't mean I'm cold. I care plenty about people as can be seen in the actions I take in helping and taking care of them.